1) You sound like another whiner.
2) Yes I am a player + collector. My collection is worth more than your home.
3) Yes I am an investor in the stock exchange but not with the wizards of the coast. Mainly because they have annoying little brats like you pulling at their hair to change the game in stupid ways rather than smart strategical angles.[/b]
1) I have bought my share of duals and fetches. I work and save up for them. I think it's ridiculous that the average price of a modern deck is $1000 and the average deck for legacy is $2000. I am "whining" because I want more people to play the game I love and by keeping these prices we are cutting people out of the game.
2) Now imagine if you invested that into something worthwhile. It could be worth twice my non existent homes!
3) So you're saying that wizards losing some 100 grumpy old men is better than gaining 1000s of new players? Cool story bro. You collection will take a hit when they print the MTGO cube in black borders initially, yes, but with all the new people entering the game and more people becoming interested in ORIGINAL power the prices will go back up faster than they were before and higher than they were before.
[b]1) That's not ridiculous. As I said before there will always be people playing with expensive cards. Ban the dual lands, and the shocks go up. Reprint a bunch and the market gets over saturated. This stuff is super simple. Magic has been and will continue to be an expensive game for tournament players.
2) I have many multiple investments that gain capital. I also invested a lot of time and energy into my very successful Visual FX company. I have investors and if I started doing things outside of what the plan is there would be issue. The reserve list works like this, we are spending money on wizards products and expect them to abide by this reserved rule years ago that they created. Get over it. They will have to go to court in order to reprint of reserved list. It's not worth it to Wizards on several levels.
3) So you're saying 100 grumpy old men (Im 32 and live a happy life) are the only people that own a lot of cards off the reserved list? Ok, maybe I shouldn't be arguing with you and you should learn more about the game. "Cool story bro"? Really? Are you in a frathouse in 2003?[/b] [b]Anyways I think you'll get more legacy players if you ban all cards over 25 dollars because there will always be cards worth a lot of money that can be played unless way to powerful. Magic cards have historically held value and that was Richard Garfields original intent, just so you know. I already know about the MTGO thing and I dont care because the cards I care about are on the Reserve list. Either way I will still play the game and relish in the reserve list[/b]
Take a few days to cool off. Way too much flaming out of your last few posts for my tastes.
-Pops
Are you a collector? Then stop concerning yourself with prices and reprints.
Are you an investor? Go to the stock exchange.
Magic is about having fun and playing with others and you're trying to stop that.
[/quote]
3 things dude:
1) You sound like another whiner.
2) Yes I am a player + collector. My collection is worth more than your home.
3) Yes I am an investor in the stock exchange but not with the wizards of the coast. Mainly because they have annoying little brats like you pulling at their hair to change the game in stupid ways rather than smart strategical angles.
I just want to say this issue is really frustrating for everyone I know that was there in the early 90's. People who had the cards that I know, playing at Gencon/minicon/dragoncon in my presence or with me. We stay in touch and I know we all share the same feelings on this. I can understand if there are some that are oldschool and want to reprint & destroy reserve list. But I have never met that person.
My advice is you new players need to respect magic history and just give up on trying to break the reserve list. It just ain't happening. I agree with the law guy on here mentioning that wizards would get sued. I would be one of those people. I was there when the reserved list happened and if you were not experiencing the feeling of the game changing then you don't understand its significance. Hasbro took over and Chronicles and 4ed turned the entire game upside down. Everyone dropped out it seemed, maybe 1/30 people continued to play as fallen empires blended in with the spiral of doom. I would never had got back into magic and invested more capital if the reserve list didn't exist with promise. Wizards proved they can be completely ignorant sell-outs so the reserve list promise is very important to many people who have a collection of wildly expensive reserved cards.
Anyone who was actually playing in tournaments with good cards got completely dominated by those two sets. Yes a lot of cards still had value but I remember for a couple months ALL MAGIC CARDS went down on value except 20-30. Of course reprints killed so many price points. The market was predicted to crash as it was picked up by Hasbro and re-releasing old cards to sell-out their original clients. The people who opened those packs to get those cards and keep them deserve the value. THey are like stock holders in my opinion and you new guys should respect that. It took some wierd people from all varieties believing and being passionate about a pocket sized Dungeons and Dragons game to help build what it is today. It was a great game to me and friends from the beginning and was VERY HARD to get packs due to low print runs. I remember waiting in line with like 50 people to get a pack of unlimited or legends on release day. Sometimes you got lucky and went to a shop in the suburbs and could grab a few packs of something but they were already marked up, retailers caught on that people were asking and they couldn't order many for the store so they over charged. We used to bring our friends because we could only buy a pack or two depending on store etc. The collectors fever and love has spread to most, many that started during revised, Iceage, even Mirage. There are a lot of collectors and a ton of collector/players.
Young legacy players please stop trying to get the reserve list reprinted, and reconfigure your game structure. Thank you.
Odd... Just a thought, if Dual Lands were banned, players would then start using shock lands and those lands will double the cost. Dual's will not go down in value, EDH and Vintage still's play them. I've been playing before Tempest was type 2 and back then the number one trade cards was Dual's.
Little Magic History 101: The only time Dual's went down in value was when DCI finally banned them in extended. Why it went down in value? Originally, players looked at Type 1 as an expensive format (power cards, etc) and AT THAT TIME THE ONLY PLAYERS THAT PLAYED 1.5 WAS CASUAL PLAYERS. Nobody took 1.5 serious because the magic rules was a dump to the format (Meaning, whatever was awesome in type 1 is restricted and banned in 1.5) Although, within a few months those extended players that loved their duals shifted to 1.5 and broke the format to the point that wizards had to changed the banned list and then renamed them to Vintage/Legacy. And as you may or may not know SCG's had made Legacy a popular format in a few years.
Today there is noway we can repeat this history again because the next format is modern and dual lands is already banned in that format and EDH/Vintage are already popular. Vintage has to be popular because I know my Beta Time Walk is worth 1,000 to 1,500 dollars [Somebody is willing to buy this]
True, and wise words.
Just to continue off soldiers point, I would imagine the person who would buy his beta time walk would be at least partial collector if not full blown collector. I believe changing the reserve list effects collectors and doesn't change the game for that much good.
There are bigger fish to fry for wizards of the coast then unbanning old collectors items. So many cool ideas and mechanics that are possible with the right talent and brainpower behind the design. I think Legacy should ban dual lands, there core audience is too upset with the price. I think this would shut them up and yes I agree- the price of shocklands would go up and duals would retain there price at minimal. I would add that if legacy banned duals then vintage would gain a lot of legacy players. If people do not like the prices of legacy then ban duals or play standard. There are a lot of people with money thay play magic, and cards having value is part of the game + matters to the players give or take. I feel like there will always be at least one format that has lots of expensive cards to play with- many magic players are generally smart people that end up with successful jobs that create disposable income.
If all cards that cost that much were banned, then they would plummet in price even more than if they were reprinted.[/quote]
That's so false, ok now I know you just don't understand what is going on, and not that much about Magic. What do you not understand about the chronicles + 4th ed mishap? oh yeah you weren't there obviously so you dont understand what it did-
I'll get real simple for you. Juzam Djinn has seen his time and is not playable in your formats-Nobody plays him in Legacy etc, but he is still COSTS over 100+ at EX. If you start reprinting him, he will decrease in value a fair amount-So would the Dual Lands. If you Ban them, the dual lands will hold there value. They are AGED cards, COLLECTORS look for these. If Wizards stops printing Magic all together, these cards will still rise in value (research high value collectables) Quit trying to get the reserve list unlocked, you have too much to learn about Magic to try and argue these things. You have been proven to be a whiner.:dance:
If you're such a noble player just wanting to see your format grow by keeping the cards balanced financially- make a petition that bans all cards that cost over 25 dollars on the market from legacy. That would be much more valiant of you then dropping prices on collectors/players.
But you would never do that because you're a whiner.
Honestly I could care less if magic is super popular or not. I will still play with my friends who also play for the love.
Everyone who wants change sounds whiny to those who don't want it. The majority of Legacy players want Legacy to be accessible so that it can become more popular. And the ones who would prefer to let the format die than lose money aren't worth caring about anyways.[/quote]
Yea, your the same people that help build the chronicles and 4th edition viruses that nearly wiped out the entire game- Wizards did horriably the following years and took a lot of work to rebuild- Had there NOT been a reserve list I doubt the game would still be relivant. You think the game would be doing well if Hasbro started making tons of cards till everything was junk? CHANGE LEGACY NOT RESERVE LISTS. Your game is broken, deal with it. Your game dies because you guys can't get smart with solutions. Maybe since you guys cry so much about duals price, Kill duals off from legacy, and go cry about it- then get over it and get back to magic. Maybe dual lands is too expensive for you guys format. Vintage will happily pick up the duals and kids like you wont bother the format because you will never override the vintage players.
Why is it so hard for you all to get good cards? Make purchases, learn the cards-make good trades-read the market. Yes you are whiners. I had over 1000 in cards at 13 because I was trading and reading the market, working hard at magic. Most of you are just lazy internet dorks- wanting to be spoonfed the hardwork others put in. CARDS THAT WERE RELEASE MONTHS AGO ARE GOING FOR OVER 100 DOLLARS YOU NEVER SAW THAT BACK IN THE DAY- You guys are worthless. I could take 100 dollars cash and flip it into 2000 dollars in magic cards in 6 months no problem Learn the game noobs.
I wrote a blog post about this here on MTGS a couple of days ago.
Legacy is a hugely successful eternal format but its health is at risk due to the Reserved List, a list designed to protect collector investments after the Chronicles debacle in 1995.
The list was revised once in 2002 after a vote by the players. Since then, the collectors have had their way by forcing Wizards to stop printing physical cards from the Reserved List in any playable form after the 2009 release of FTV: Relics.
Today, the players are here to downed out the voice of the collectors.
Our objective is to revise the Reserved List to only include cards that are banned in Legacy and/or Vintage & Restricted in Vintage and possible a select few other cards that do not see play in those formats. This would still allow for cards like the Power 9 and Library of Alexandria to never be reprinted and continue to retain value while allowing many needed reprints of cards like dual lands, Tabernacle of the Pendral Vale, Moat, Candralabra of Tawnos, Lion's Eye Diamond, Intuition, City of Traitors, and Gaea's Cradle to name a few in a set similar to Modern Masters. This would also allow for many Legacy playable cards to be reprint that are in need of reprinting but are not on the Reserved List like Force of Will, Karakas, Wasteland, the saclands from Onslaught, as well as many others.
Considering the plan that Wizards put into place with Modern Masters, most cards that were reprinted have actually increased in price due to demand. I feel that a Legacy Masters set would do the same.
All signers of the petition agree that they will not support any other eternal format as a substitute for Legacy.
You can sign the petition here. Then forward this petition to as many MTG players as you know. While I have targeted 100K signatures as a goal, I want as many as I can get. The more players that tell Wizards to fix this absurdity, the better.
You sound like a wiener. They dont care about you or your lame friends. There are many players that own these cards that completely disagree with you.
Power 9 will always be the most concrete valuable of magic. It's like owning the first superman appearance. You may have hologram covers of new superman editions that 'are limited' but your getting caught in the hype.
@therogue + @gumgod: There are some repackaged boxes with packs from old sets, couple legit stores are selling them on ebay sometimes. They seem legit I was thinking of grabbing one of the unlimited boosters or arabians with a revised starter box. Would be fun to do a tourny with a revised starter and arabian booster for each person. Fun.
Some minor magic history before drafting-We used to buy just a starter deck and play with it, some people would add one booster but it would have to be agreed upon. We called it 'Zen' or 'Zen Decks' and every game was for ante. Some guys were really hardcore about it and had a sheet of paper that showed the original list of cards they got from starter, and would record each ante game and have the winner/loser sign the sheet. I remember a few guys doing this. I thought it would be cool to do a tournament like that, and everybody gets to keep there deck. The reboosters I had found guaranteed your moneys worth+ definitely power 9 cards and duals etc. Anyways yes would be great to see a old school league with the oldies.
@MaximumC Thank you for the knowledge. I see your point for sure. Its just that is how vintage was described to me from many sources, I originally wanted to get into vintage instead of Legacy, my cards are more fitting for vintage by far- but I was discouraged about the one turn kills via power 9 by many modern + legacy players, so I could be more wrong haha but I hear you. I will be honest I dont like any format being run by 3-6 decks, seems like there is little creativity and imagination but I can only assume thats mainly for tournament play. There have always been around that many being overloaded at tournaments so I guess that is still relative. The games I actually watched were definitely aiming to lock the game immediately, and I can appreciate it and understand it. I'll take another look at it, I;m not counting vintage out. I do really like the 93/94 idea but doubting there are any players around Atlanta for that lol. On the confusing part- what I meant to get at is older players would be more tune to get back in if the new cards were not allowed, kills the crazy learning process-yes some of the new cards are confusing and so are there power for older players trying to get back in is what I meant. But I guess 93/94 is for that.
Im glad Merfolk are seeing there day, the general magic player usually showed disgust or annoyance with them back then (no respect I tell ya). I worked hard for my oldschool merfolk deck, swallowed my pride on some losses but I loved the character idea and just something about them. I was able to crush non-tourny players with it. Lord of Atlantis was always an amazing card to me when I started. I hope that sort of love and passion for the game still exist. Merfolk assassin!
[b]1) That's not ridiculous. As I said before there will always be people playing with expensive cards. Ban the dual lands, and the shocks go up. Reprint a bunch and the market gets over saturated. This stuff is super simple. Magic has been and will continue to be an expensive game for tournament players.
2) I have many multiple investments that gain capital. I also invested a lot of time and energy into my very successful Visual FX company. I have investors and if I started doing things outside of what the plan is there would be issue. The reserve list works like this, we are spending money on wizards products and expect them to abide by this reserved rule years ago that they created. Get over it. They will have to go to court in order to reprint of reserved list. It's not worth it to Wizards on several levels.
3) So you're saying 100 grumpy old men (Im 32 and live a happy life) are the only people that own a lot of cards off the reserved list? Ok, maybe I shouldn't be arguing with you and you should learn more about the game. "Cool story bro"? Really? Are you in a frathouse in 2003?[/b]
Take a few days to cool off. Way too much flaming out of your last few posts for my tastes.
-Pops
Are you a collector? Then stop concerning yourself with prices and reprints.
Are you an investor? Go to the stock exchange.
Magic is about having fun and playing with others and you're trying to stop that.
[/quote]
3 things dude:
1) You sound like another whiner.
2) Yes I am a player + collector. My collection is worth more than your home.
3) Yes I am an investor in the stock exchange but not with the wizards of the coast. Mainly because they have annoying little brats like you pulling at their hair to change the game in stupid ways rather than smart strategical angles.
My advice is you new players need to respect magic history and just give up on trying to break the reserve list. It just ain't happening. I agree with the law guy on here mentioning that wizards would get sued. I would be one of those people. I was there when the reserved list happened and if you were not experiencing the feeling of the game changing then you don't understand its significance. Hasbro took over and Chronicles and 4ed turned the entire game upside down. Everyone dropped out it seemed, maybe 1/30 people continued to play as fallen empires blended in with the spiral of doom. I would never had got back into magic and invested more capital if the reserve list didn't exist with promise. Wizards proved they can be completely ignorant sell-outs so the reserve list promise is very important to many people who have a collection of wildly expensive reserved cards.
Anyone who was actually playing in tournaments with good cards got completely dominated by those two sets. Yes a lot of cards still had value but I remember for a couple months ALL MAGIC CARDS went down on value except 20-30. Of course reprints killed so many price points. The market was predicted to crash as it was picked up by Hasbro and re-releasing old cards to sell-out their original clients. The people who opened those packs to get those cards and keep them deserve the value. THey are like stock holders in my opinion and you new guys should respect that. It took some wierd people from all varieties believing and being passionate about a pocket sized Dungeons and Dragons game to help build what it is today. It was a great game to me and friends from the beginning and was VERY HARD to get packs due to low print runs. I remember waiting in line with like 50 people to get a pack of unlimited or legends on release day. Sometimes you got lucky and went to a shop in the suburbs and could grab a few packs of something but they were already marked up, retailers caught on that people were asking and they couldn't order many for the store so they over charged. We used to bring our friends because we could only buy a pack or two depending on store etc. The collectors fever and love has spread to most, many that started during revised, Iceage, even Mirage. There are a lot of collectors and a ton of collector/players.
Young legacy players please stop trying to get the reserve list reprinted, and reconfigure your game structure. Thank you.
True, and wise words.
Just to continue off soldiers point, I would imagine the person who would buy his beta time walk would be at least partial collector if not full blown collector. I believe changing the reserve list effects collectors and doesn't change the game for that much good.
There are bigger fish to fry for wizards of the coast then unbanning old collectors items. So many cool ideas and mechanics that are possible with the right talent and brainpower behind the design. I think Legacy should ban dual lands, there core audience is too upset with the price. I think this would shut them up and yes I agree- the price of shocklands would go up and duals would retain there price at minimal. I would add that if legacy banned duals then vintage would gain a lot of legacy players. If people do not like the prices of legacy then ban duals or play standard. There are a lot of people with money thay play magic, and cards having value is part of the game + matters to the players give or take. I feel like there will always be at least one format that has lots of expensive cards to play with- many magic players are generally smart people that end up with successful jobs that create disposable income.
If all cards that cost that much were banned, then they would plummet in price even more than if they were reprinted.[/quote]
That's so false, ok now I know you just don't understand what is going on, and not that much about Magic. What do you not understand about the chronicles + 4th ed mishap? oh yeah you weren't there obviously so you dont understand what it did-
I'll get real simple for you.
Juzam Djinn has seen his time and is not playable in your formats-Nobody plays him in Legacy etc, but he is still COSTS over 100+ at EX. If you start reprinting him, he will decrease in value a fair amount-So would the Dual Lands. If you Ban them, the dual lands will hold there value. They are AGED cards, COLLECTORS look for these. If Wizards stops printing Magic all together, these cards will still rise in value (research high value collectables) Quit trying to get the reserve list unlocked, you have too much to learn about Magic to try and argue these things. You have been proven to be a whiner.:dance:
But you would never do that because you're a whiner.
Honestly I could care less if magic is super popular or not. I will still play with my friends who also play for the love.
Everyone who wants change sounds whiny to those who don't want it. The majority of Legacy players want Legacy to be accessible so that it can become more popular. And the ones who would prefer to let the format die than lose money aren't worth caring about anyways.[/quote]
Yea, your the same people that help build the chronicles and 4th edition viruses that nearly wiped out the entire game- Wizards did horriably the following years and took a lot of work to rebuild- Had there NOT been a reserve list I doubt the game would still be relivant. You think the game would be doing well if Hasbro started making tons of cards till everything was junk? CHANGE LEGACY NOT RESERVE LISTS. Your game is broken, deal with it. Your game dies because you guys can't get smart with solutions. Maybe since you guys cry so much about duals price, Kill duals off from legacy, and go cry about it- then get over it and get back to magic. Maybe dual lands is too expensive for you guys format. Vintage will happily pick up the duals and kids like you wont bother the format because you will never override the vintage players.
Why is it so hard for you all to get good cards? Make purchases, learn the cards-make good trades-read the market. Yes you are whiners. I had over 1000 in cards at 13 because I was trading and reading the market, working hard at magic. Most of you are just lazy internet dorks- wanting to be spoonfed the hardwork others put in. CARDS THAT WERE RELEASE MONTHS AGO ARE GOING FOR OVER 100 DOLLARS YOU NEVER SAW THAT BACK IN THE DAY- You guys are worthless. I could take 100 dollars cash and flip it into 2000 dollars in magic cards in 6 months no problem Learn the game noobs.
You sound like a wiener. They dont care about you or your lame friends. There are many players that own these cards that completely disagree with you.
Power 9 will always be the most concrete valuable of magic. It's like owning the first superman appearance. You may have hologram covers of new superman editions that 'are limited' but your getting caught in the hype.
Power 9 for a reason, the rest is treason.
@therogue + @gumgod: There are some repackaged boxes with packs from old sets, couple legit stores are selling them on ebay sometimes. They seem legit I was thinking of grabbing one of the unlimited boosters or arabians with a revised starter box. Would be fun to do a tourny with a revised starter and arabian booster for each person. Fun.
Some minor magic history before drafting-We used to buy just a starter deck and play with it, some people would add one booster but it would have to be agreed upon. We called it 'Zen' or 'Zen Decks' and every game was for ante. Some guys were really hardcore about it and had a sheet of paper that showed the original list of cards they got from starter, and would record each ante game and have the winner/loser sign the sheet. I remember a few guys doing this. I thought it would be cool to do a tournament like that, and everybody gets to keep there deck. The reboosters I had found guaranteed your moneys worth+ definitely power 9 cards and duals etc. Anyways yes would be great to see a old school league with the oldies.
@MaximumC Thank you for the knowledge. I see your point for sure. Its just that is how vintage was described to me from many sources, I originally wanted to get into vintage instead of Legacy, my cards are more fitting for vintage by far- but I was discouraged about the one turn kills via power 9 by many modern + legacy players, so I could be more wrong haha but I hear you. I will be honest I dont like any format being run by 3-6 decks, seems like there is little creativity and imagination but I can only assume thats mainly for tournament play. There have always been around that many being overloaded at tournaments so I guess that is still relative. The games I actually watched were definitely aiming to lock the game immediately, and I can appreciate it and understand it. I'll take another look at it, I;m not counting vintage out. I do really like the 93/94 idea but doubting there are any players around Atlanta for that lol. On the confusing part- what I meant to get at is older players would be more tune to get back in if the new cards were not allowed, kills the crazy learning process-yes some of the new cards are confusing and so are there power for older players trying to get back in is what I meant. But I guess 93/94 is for that.
Im glad Merfolk are seeing there day, the general magic player usually showed disgust or annoyance with them back then (no respect I tell ya). I worked hard for my oldschool merfolk deck, swallowed my pride on some losses but I loved the character idea and just something about them. I was able to crush non-tourny players with it. Lord of Atlantis was always an amazing card to me when I started. I hope that sort of love and passion for the game still exist. Merfolk assassin!