All users will need to merge their MTGSalvation account with a new or existing Twitch account starting Sept 25th. You can merge your accounts by clicking here. Have questions? Learn more here.
Dismiss
 
A Reckoning on Kamigawa
 
The Magic Market Index for Oct 20, 2017
 
The Magic Market Index for Oct 13, 2017
  • posted a message on Temporary State of the Meta Thread (Rules Update 7/17/17)
    Quote from spawnofhastur »
    So, the embargo in Twin talk has stopped and cfusionpm, despite his apparent antipathy to Modern, more work, and moving to playing Commander, has started posting about five times as regularly as he did when the embargo was active. Hm. I wonder if this indicates anything.

    hellfire is also making a bunch of posts about how "modern sucks" and anyone who disagrees is apparently a drooling idiot rather than making any interesting and constructive points.

    Jesus I need to stop reading this thread, it's giving me an aneurysm.
    It's an open thread about bans and format health. deal with it or leave.
    Posted in: Modern
  • posted a message on Temporary State of the Meta Thread (Rules Update 7/17/17)
    Quote from rcwraspy »
    Quote from Nyzzeh »
    Seething song wouldn't be a problem and would even enable some tier2-3 deck like dragonstorm or all in red.

    I've rewatched a game from yesterday against storm, I was testing my jeskai geist deck.

    Game1 he comboes turn8 after trying to cast at the end of his last turns a gifts which I always remanded or tried to counter which he remanded to himself. I didn't put pressure on the field since I can't just tap out on my turn and he had all that time to sculpt his hand.

    Game 2 I'm on the play, end of his turn2 he plays 2 opts. I untap T3, play geist to put some pressure before he can combo and pass the turn. Turn3 he plays an electromancer and proceeds to put 18 goblins in play after playing a Wipe Away on one of my 3 lands. So even if I had had a hate card in play he would have comboed anyways. Turn 3. And it's not something special. Happens very often. Yes. Needs a ban. A big one.

    Another point is: storm plays a turn 2 bear. If you don't kill the bear before turn 3, storm is going off turn3 with what, a 90% chance? Some will say: of course storm is gonna kill you if you don't kill his bear. And I say, really?? Is a deck that consistently wins turn3 if you don't have removal for his bear on turn2 fair?
    What is this crap? A turn 8 win + a turn 4 win = ban worthy? Come one.
    twin did a similar thing, and was considered unfun. how is someone supposed to play the game when they cant even tap out? sounds like a bad deck to have in the top tiers if you ask me.



    Posted in: Modern
  • posted a message on Temporary State of the Meta Thread (Rules Update 7/17/17)
    Quote from Seymour_TUBES »
    Quote from xxhellfirexx3 »
    Quote from Seymour_TUBES »
    Quote from xxhellfirexx3 »
    So bans will never fully eradicate them as they slip under the hammer in each announcement.

    And unless you like to drool and play solitaire and sideboard lottery, then it's not the format for you.

    Solution: Instead get into hobbies that take more skill and Intelligence.

    So why are you still here?
    to enlighten others.

    Well, keep it up. You're doing a hell of a job.


    will do
    Posted in: Modern
  • posted a message on Temporary State of the Meta Thread (Rules Update 7/17/17)
    Quote from gkourou »
    Quote from xxhellfirexx3 »
    Quote from gkourou »
    Quote from xxhellfirexx3 »

    Modern will always be a linear dominated format(yes naysayers...I know.... Not 100 percent linear... I'm wrong...Here have a treat... good boy).


    Most played Modern cards:

    Path to Exile 28.1 %
    Serum Visions 26.3 %
    Lightning Bolt 24.2 %
    Snapcaster Mage 21.5 %
    Fatal Push 19.9 %
    Inquisition of Kozilek 19.0 %
    Thoughtseize 18.7 %
    Noble Hierarch 12.9 %
    Scavenging Ooze 12.7 %
    Dismember 12.6 %
    with gds being over prevalent I'm not suprised.

    Then it will get a ban cuz we know how wizards is with pro tour formats. Then where will we be?


    Yep. Because GDS, Eldra Tron, Titanshift and Storm all play Path To Exile and Lighting Bolt, playsets, in the Mainboard.
    Also, DS is the 35th most played card in the format atm. Why is Snap no.4? Maybe because other control decks play that as well?
    again where did u get these stats....

    Also I said linear Dominated.not 100 percent linear.

    Tell me what percentage of the format is linear vs non linear?


    I bet if you got good stats and did the work you would realize modern is more linear.
    Metagame stats are alot more relevant than most played cards in terms of format health.

    For instance bolt is in titan and burn, both very linear decks.




    Posted in: Modern
  • posted a message on Temporary State of the Meta Thread (Rules Update 7/17/17)
    Quote from Seymour_TUBES »
    Quote from xxhellfirexx3 »
    So bans will never fully eradicate them as they slip under the hammer in each announcement.

    And unless you like to drool and play solitaire and sideboard lottery, then it's not the format for you.

    Solution: Instead get into hobbies that take more skill and Intelligence.

    So why are you still here?
    to enlighten others.
    Posted in: Modern
  • posted a message on Temporary State of the Meta Thread (Rules Update 7/17/17)
    Quote from gkourou »
    Quote from xxhellfirexx3 »

    Modern will always be a linear dominated format(yes naysayers...I know.... Not 100 percent linear... I'm wrong...Here have a treat... good boy).


    Most played Modern cards:

    Path to Exile 28.1 %
    Serum Visions 26.3 %
    Lightning Bolt 24.2 %
    Snapcaster Mage 21.5 %
    Fatal Push 19.9 %
    Inquisition of Kozilek 19.0 %
    Thoughtseize 18.7 %
    Noble Hierarch 12.9 %
    Scavenging Ooze 12.7 %
    Dismember 12.6 %
    with gds being over prevalent I'm not suprised.

    Then it will get a ban cuz we know how wizards is with pro tour formats. Then where will we be?

    Posted in: Modern
  • posted a message on Temporary State of the Meta Thread (Rules Update 7/17/17)
    Quote from Nyzzeh »
    The rule has always been that any deck that consistently wins on turn3 gets a ban. Of course every deck that can do that, will get slowed down a few turns if it's disrupted. Couldn't infect shoal be disrupted with thoughtseize????
    But the turn3 rule doesn't take into account any interaction.
    The devoted druid combo is a 2-card combo that doesn't even win the game on the spot (although admitedly is quite strong cos you can play your entire hand). But still is a 2 card combo, and the possibilities of drawing those 2 cards by turn 3 in a 60 card deck are not that high.

    I said this on the Storm thread and got infracted for talking about bans outside of this thread, so I'll say it here:

    How can a combo deck like storm be TIER1 in a field where there is a tier1 deck packing 4 chalices main, a tier1 deck packing 4 eidolons main, and another tier1 deck packing 6 1CMC discard spells, 6 removal spells and 3 counterspells along with cheap big clocks???
    The answer is: a super overpowered deck that can still have a decent win% against those 3 decks while it ABSOLUTELY DESTROYS all the other decks.
    It's true. A top tier that has the best answers the format has to offer, and storm is still tier 1. The only reason it's not dominating is because of this too. But one should think it should be tier 2 because of all this indirect hate.

    I felt the same way about etron. With so many fast decks at the top of the meta how is it still tier 1?

    It's a sign of brokenness that's why.

    But here is the thing, modern is broken, And it always will be. And the next best broken deck will rise and get banned or nerfed one day when it's dominating. History always repeats itself.

    Modern will always be a linear dominated format(yes naysayers...I know.... Not 100 percent linear... I'm wrong...Here have a treat... good boy).


    because of this there will always be an unhealthy amount of these type of decks in the top tiers keeping each other in check.
    (a matter of opinion you say naysayers? ......here... another treat.... Good boy...)

    So bans will never fully eradicate them as they slip under the hammer in each announcement.

    And unless you like to drool and play solitaire and sideboard lottery, then it's not the format for you.

    Solution: Instead get into hobbies that take more skill and Intelligence.

    You will thank me later trust me!
    Posted in: Modern
  • posted a message on Temporary State of the Meta Thread (Rules Update 7/17/17)
    Quote from xBattleSpawnx »
    If it absolutely destroyed all other decks, plus had a decent win % against the rest of tier 1 (or as you put it, super overpowered), it would absolutely show in results and meta share. Also, yes the Turn 4 rule does take into account interaction as supported by WotC.

    Example from Sam Stoddard:
    Certainly, there is a lot of fun to be had in that strategy. I've been known to belch some chars in my day, but it's not the kind of strategy we particularly like as a tier 1 strategy. Most of the super-fast combo decks in Modern that can win before turn three on a regular basis tend to do so in a way that we can expect most decks to easily interact with. I'm not saying that Infect can't get a quick win early, but that a deck with Lightning Bolts, Path, or Dismember has real game against it. It has ways to fight back. There is interaction.



    Edit: To expand further, how the deck can be interacted with is absolutely key to a potential T4 violator's survival if it meets all other criteria including consistency and being top tier. Storm requires creatures that can be easily answered by all forms of major removal (bolt, path, push, dismember, abrupt decay). Compare that to say Amulet Bloom which required very specific answers and invalidated most forms of removal.
    infect could be slowed down with lots of interaction..

    So can storm
    Posted in: Modern
  • posted a message on Temporary State of the Meta Thread (Rules Update 7/17/17)
    Quote from xxhellfirexx3 »
    its not so much death shadows effect on "healthiness" wizards would look at unfortunately though. I think they more or less look at its 15.7% metashare.


    GDS is about 1/3 of that. No deck right now takes up more than 7% of the meta. Meta is currently unreasonably balanced.


    how do you know? where do you get your stats


    Posted in: Modern
  • posted a message on Temporary State of the Meta Thread (Rules Update 7/17/17)
    Quote from gkourou »
    Quote from xxhellfirexx3 »
    Quote from gkourou »
    Quote from rcwraspy »


    Go ask on the ET forum if ET is prey to GDS. Seriously.
    why would i ask 20 biased people when i can instead rely on actual data?


    I don't have data from >100 games, but I can easily tell you that I would rather play Grixis Shadow than any control or midrange deck when I am up against Eldra Tron. (matchup seems about even to me, though and if they go turn 1 relic of progenitus life is very hard)

    Edit: you are both kind of right.
    Eldra Tron pushes people away from playing Control or Midrange decks and into playing Shadow, because it's better vs it than playing any other control or midrange deck. That's the reason why Eldrazi Temple should be hit, since it warps the format that way.
    But the matchup still is about even.

    I have no doubt in my mind that temple should be banned, but if its hit without death shadow wouldn't death shadow dominate even more?

    I almost feel like they would both have to go.


    Grixis Shadow is a prey to all of the fair decks. It gives you a reason to play Control and Midrange fair decks. If Shadow gets hit, people will have even less reason to run those decks(tbh, it's nearly pointless to play fair in Modern atm if you want to win)
    Also, the deck is not putting that much numbers, according to the latest Modern Challengs and honestly, it is not as good as people claim it is.
    It has the old Splinter Twin effect without being a combo. It's a check and a great deck to have.
    its not so much death shadows effect on "healthiness" wizards would look at unfortunately though. I think they more or less look at its 15.7% metashare.
    Posted in: Modern
  • posted a message on Temporary State of the Meta Thread (Rules Update 7/17/17)
    Quote from gkourou »
    Quote from rcwraspy »
    Quote from rcwraspy »


    What a bunch of nonsense. ET is Shadow's prey? Do you really believe that? That matchup is close to 50/50, and I actually feel slightly favored tbh. Not sure why you'd post about things like this when you have no idea what you are talking about.
    "Your post doesn't comport with my own anecdotal personal experience so you must have no idea what you're talking about." ROFL.


    Go ask on the ET forum if ET is prey to GDS. Seriously.
    why would i ask 20 biased people when i can instead rely on actual data?


    I don't have data from >100 games, but I can easily tell you that I would rather play Grixis Shadow than any control or midrange deck when I am up against Eldra Tron. (matchup seems about even to me, though and if they go turn 1 relic of progenitus life is very hard)

    Edit: you are both kind of right.
    Eldra Tron pushes people away from playing Control or Midrange decks and into playing Shadow, because it's better vs it than playing any other control or midrange deck. That's the reason why Eldrazi Temple should be hit, since it warps the format that way.
    But the matchup still is about even.

    I have no doubt in my mind that temple should be banned, but if its hit without death shadow wouldn't death shadow dominate even more?

    I almost feel like they would both have to go.
    Posted in: Modern
  • posted a message on Temporary State of the Meta Thread (Rules Update 7/17/17)
    Quote from gkourou »
    Grixis shadow is one of the best things that could happen to Modern at the moment. Reasons:
    1) super beatable deck(thus increasing variance)
    2) gives the more linear deck a hard time
    3) creates interesting, skill based decision games
    4) packs lots of interaction
    5) and only really wins with simple beats from vanilla ground creatures(cfusion mention).
    6) The decks that keep DS in check are super interactable decks, like UW Control, Death and Taxes decks, Abzan Midrange and promote good magic, skill based games, where the best player can create an advantage over the weaker player.
    It's a check for everything and a win-win deck to have in the format. We need more decks like this. We need a kind of Infect or Twin deck back, so that it keeps Eldra Tron in check.

    On the other hand, Eldra Tron is a deck that:
    1) Creates lopsides matchups and is eliminating the skill based games. In other words, if an Eldra Tron player is playing vs an X player, let me see their initial keep. I can predict with an at least 70% point of certainty which is going to win. This is what we want to avoid in the format and Eldra Tron (thus Modern) is promoting atm. It's a net negative force that makes the whole format worse overall.
    2) gives the fair players a reason to not play fair, because they just fold to it and instead go linear
    3) Plays little interaction and one of their best ways to handle several decks is a prison card(Chalice Of The Void-which is super game over vs certain decks, like Grixis Shadow and generally shuts down a lot of interaction pieces)
    4) is winning with creatures that create a snowball effect(TKS, RS) where if you dont answer them instantly, they take over the game in a heartbeat.

    After this analysis(maybe you find it wrong, maybe right) everyone can pick their desired solution for the format.

    Mine: Ban Eldrazi Temple(or just have it on a watchlist), unban Preordain, Stoneforge Mystic, Jace, The Mind Sculptor, Bloodbraid Elf which are realistic solutions.
    Then try to give Modern cards like Counterspell, Baleful Strix, Fire//Ice, etc.


    It is because of Grixis Shadow that Eldrazi Tron is so powerful in this format, because the format has this quick Xerox style strategy that can only be outclassed by a ramp deck. Seems about right, this has happened and been true in every format.

    Why do you get to ick someone else's yum? Because you want every deck to be multicolored and rocking removal? Welp, some people don't like playing those strategies.

    Strix is probably the only card on this list you proposed that would have any chance of coming into the format and even then, to prevent UBx Shadow from being teir 0 (as they would have a better Tron matchup) it would def get hit with a ban somewhere.

    Anyways, I'm just kinda blown away by how many people all want Modern to look like Legacy Lite with most of the top decks being attrition based or multi colored midrange piles. If anything I would rather advocate the opposite and promote fewer bullets that shut down entire swaths of decks or archetypes just because they naturally have a lopsided matchup.
    but it's ok to have almost the entire top tier of the game be linear,
    and unbalanced powerlevel wise.
    With MORE archtype diversity we could have without those decks in our format.

    Ok

    Modern would still be modern without ds and etron. Nothing close to legacy lite.
    Posted in: Modern
  • posted a message on Temporary State of the Meta Thread (Rules Update 7/17/17)
    Eldratron has a hard time with elves and affinity if they don't get chalice on 1. Heck if I want to ban anything, I'll ban Chalice of the Void. That one card is the only reason EldraTron has a chance against multitude of decks.

    But that said, if that does get banned, tons of cheap 1 CMC decks spring back out all over the place. So I rather just keep it around, and keep playing until someone solves the puzzle.
    and yet with chalice in etron we still have alot of top tier decks who run a ton of 1cmc cards. I don't see your point.
    Posted in: Modern
  • posted a message on Temporary State of the Meta Thread (Rules Update 7/17/17)
    Quote from TheMoonshield »
    Quote from xxhellfirexx3 »
    Quote from TheMoonshield »
    Updated 2017 meta: combined GPs and SCG's Opens; data starts from GP Copenhagen/ GP Kobe (around the time when Jund DS was supplanted by Grixis, and bant eldrazi by eldrazi tron) --> i consider this cut-off to be more representative of the actual meta.

    In my opinion Grixis DS and Eldrazi tron are one step above the rest of the field, thought the data sample is really limited and the fact that groups of 2 GPs are compressed in the same days clearly doesn't help in having a picture of a better developed metagame (Grixis DS numbers, for example, are affected by its spike around the Charlotte Open).

    Due to the difficulties in the eldrazi tron classification, i've made two graphics of the meta suddivision in archetypes, in the first graph eldrazi tron is put togrther with midrange decks, in the second one together with ramp, obviously this change depict two very different metas.

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3bAmE4JdvjzbUZoWVg0Z0VsSGc/view?usp=sharing
    that's interesting. I would argue for a death shadow and temple ban.
    Even before I seen this data, I've felt these 2 cards would need to leave together.

    Format would be more healthy Imo. Of course this is all speculation. But interesting nonetheless.


    Unfortunately Wizards generally scheduls more than one GP in the same weekend making it really hard to figure out if a deck's numbers are due to a spike or to a consistent performance through a longer period of time. Adding the fact that mtgo's datas are currently unreliably makes figuring out this trends even harder.
    but if these stats are true....we are in for bans, before or after the pt, I can tell you that.
    Posted in: Modern
  • posted a message on Temporary State of the Meta Thread (Rules Update 7/17/17)
    Quote from gkourou »
    Quote from xxhellfirexx3 »
    Quote from TheMoonshield »
    Updated 2017 meta: combined GPs and SCG's Opens; data starts from GP Copenhagen/ GP Kobe (around the time when Jund DS was supplanted by Grixis, and bant eldrazi by eldrazi tron) --> i consider this cut-off to be more representative of the actual meta.

    In my opinion Grixis DS and Eldrazi tron are one step above the rest of the field, thought the data sample is really limited and the fact that groups of 2 GPs are compressed in the same days clearly doesn't help in having a picture of a better developed metagame (Grixis DS numbers, for example, are affected by its spike around the Charlotte Open).

    Due to the difficulties in the eldrazi tron classification, i've made two graphics of the meta suddivision in archetypes, in the first graph eldrazi tron is put togrther with midrange decks, in the second one together with ramp, obviously this change depict two very different metas.

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3bAmE4JdvjzbUZoWVg0Z0VsSGc/view?usp=sharing
    that's interesting. I would argue for a death shadow and temple ban.
    Even before I seen this data, I've felt these 2 cards would need to leave together.

    Format would be more healthy Imo. Of course this is all speculation. But interesting nonetheless.


    If Death's Shadow leaves the format, get ready for a more linear metagame. Twin, Infect were all bad hits if what you are looking for is skillgaming decisions and long games. Are you having lopsided matchups and matchup lotteries where skill does not matter so much in modern atm? Prepare for that happgning twice more after this ban.


    but what if thats not true?

    we see in this data that eldrazi tron cannibalizes other midrange deck shares, being played more than twice as much as the next option: abzan. theres is also an argument to be made that eldrazi tron is toxic to other midrange decks and it shows here very much, either that or its just more than twice as powerful as other mid decks, either way this is not healthy.

    The same could be said about Grixis death shadow, where it doubles or even triples most other aggro strategies in meta percentages.


    im sorry but these stats point to eldrazi tron and grixis death shadow being tier .5, leaps and bounds above everything else.... and if this is actually true, than we should expect temple and death shadow to be banned within a year or sooner.

    which is a good thing because there are decks that will rise in their place,like what has always happened.

    it wont be the end of the world if these bans happen, nor the end of modern.
    Posted in: Modern
  • To post a comment, please or register a new account.