I have a deck similar to what you are thinking but with a few more colors. I'll post it tonight when I get home from work. Basically I think adding red is free and gives you some strong choices.
It could probably use a bit of refinement, but the results were pretty solid for a "rogue" deck like that.
I disagree that my deck looks much like his. The game plans are very different even though we are in the same colors. His deck is all about getting an efficient beater out early. It doesn't run den protectors or commands. Whips or nissas.
The thing I didn't like about about his deck is it has one game plan and if they can answer a few big creatures you don't have a plan b.
This list was inspired by the interaction between den protector and kolaghan's command. I saw some other Jund lists being talked about a little bit recently and updated them as I saw fit. What I didn't like in the other lists I've seen is how hard their lists are on the mana, playing double red cards like anger of the gods when the red should really be a slight splash. My deck is essentially g/b midrange with a red splash for the command. Here's the list I've been having a lot of success with.
I really like the MU's vs all the abzan decks and any deck looking to value me out with one for one removal. This deck is super grindy and will value out most control decks. Decks relying on enchantments/artifacts are pretty good unless they nut draw.
The worst MU's are decks with lots of flying creatures such as the jacekai deck and BR dragons. If you land a Hornet queen or Whip of Erebos its easy enough to win, but they can get some really fast draws that you die before you can stabalize.
I think this deck has one of the best late games with being able to buy back den protector and kolaghan's command over and over again making them discard whatever they draw. This deck also has good match ups against random decks as you have answers to pretty much everything and can reuse them.
I was having trouble with mono red as well. It wasn't unwinnable but if you lost the die roll there wasn't much of a chance. Being that I play mostly online, I updated the deck to be more delve orientated. So far I'm 2-0 vs red with the new set up.
My first iteration of the deck had a lot more red in it, playing cards like outpost siege, abbot of keral keep, and some cheap removal but the amount of tap lands I had to play in order to play that much red was awful. The way the deck is set up now you don't usually need red until later in the game and it has rarely come up as a problem.
I really like this deck and have been playing it for about a month now. I would love to see what other people are playing in their jund decks.
"The sacred cow I have trimmed in the above list is Courser of Kruphix, which I suspect may be unnecessary in the deck once it has Deathmist Raptor as a card-advantage gaining threat. Removing Courser entirely has the fringe benefit of making Dromoka's Command less effective, even allowing you the option of sidestepping the sacrifice an enchantment mode entirely if you side out Whip of Erebos." - Ross Meriam
Comparing nyx weaver to actual good cards is a terrible argument. I never said it is better against aggro, I agree courser is better for that and if that is all you are facing then run courser. Raptor is fine in the aggro match though and better in the decks that kill your threats, ie the rest of the top decks. I think you'd agree with me if you played it.
Whatever works for you though, I'll be done arguing about it and just keep winning with my list.
I don't want to dip my toes on this debate of Raptor vs. Courser, but saying that Courser has no synergy with this deck couldn't be farther from the truth. This deck plays Temples and fetchlands which both increase the value she provides. More importantly Courser lets us manipulate our top decks very efficiently with Sidisi-triggers (BOTH Sidisi, Brood Tyrant AND Sidisi, Undead Vizier) and Satyr Wayfinder.
I didn't say he didn't have any. I'm saying its not nearly as good as gy recursion in a deck that mills itself. He's always been in this deck because courser is a great card and brings "synergy" to any deck that he is in. Card that come back from the gy is actual synergy with decks that mill cards into their gy.
[quote from="PrinceAbubu »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/competitive/established-standard/572716-sultai-delve?comment=1261"]I think you should try it out before saying things. Courser has very little synergy with the deck where as the den protector and raptor have a ton. Thoughtseize is obviously good, but I don't really have room. I could perhaps see two in the main deck. I just haven't really missed it that much. The recursion and buying spells back is huge against people playing removal and disruption.
The deck matches up well vs disruptive decks but has trouble vs decks like heroic and the new gw aggro deck that just don't care what we are doing.
Courser doesn't need any sort of synergy, it does enough by itself to warrant playing as a 4 of in pretty much any green deck that isn't aggro. It helps us buy time against aggressive decks, it helps us hit land drops to cast our fatties, it provides card advantage to keep up with midrange/control decks.
Den protector/raptor provide more card advantage and stabilize vs aggro decks. Raptor trades with most anything and then comes back.
I think you should try it out before saying things. Courser has very little synergy with the deck where as the den protector and raptor have a ton. Thoughtseize is obviously good, but I don't really have room. I could perhaps see two in the main deck. I just haven't really missed it that much. The recursion and buying spells back is huge against people playing removal and disruption.
The deck matches up well vs disruptive decks but has trouble vs decks like heroic and the new gw aggro deck that just don't care what we are doing.
After a long stint into ub control and Esper dragons after that up until the pt, it feels good to be back. This is the list I have put together, adding in the atarka's after seeing it in the open. Please try playing it, and thank me later. I have no idea why more people aren't playing with the den protectot/deathmist raptor engine in this deck
This is close to the list ran in the top 8 of the SCG Providence except with the deathmist raptor//den protector engine. I have tested it a good bit the past few days and believe it is a strong choice in the current metagame. The amount of recursion and card advantage the deck gets with the package lets it compete and fight through control's disruption.
the package also allows us to play more creatures, making sidisi, brood tyrant better along with corpseweft which if you havent played yet I strongly suggest trying. It is a more powerful mastery of the unseen in this deck.
So the only reason commune is good is because of Tasigur. If you aren't running him then don't run commune. I also believe if you arent running him then you are doing yourself a disfavor.
Tasigur is a 4/5. and If you played satyr wayfinder, he comes down for 1 or 2 mana.
The last time a 4/5 came down for 2 mana that required a few cards in your graveyard? Tarmogoyf.
Tarmogoyf doesn't give you card advantage every turn, either.
I think this is a specious comparison. A lot more has to go right for Tasigur to work right, than for Goyf to work right. In older formats with fetchlands, Goyf being online as a 3/4 at least very early, is all but certain. Getting the magical christmasland Tasigur play is much less likely and requires a lot more to go right. Specifically you need t1 Mystic, t2 Commune / Wayfinder, PLUS Tasigur in hand, PLUS two colors of mana, one of which you can't get off your one-drop accelerant. Which means you need a set of FOUR specific cards in your first eight (one mystic, one tasigur, one of commune/wayfinder) plus at least one black source that enters untapped on t2 (how many of them do we even run??), AND a Forest or other untapped green source for t1 - or a Llanowar Wastes to do both.
Whereas with Goyf all you have to do is draw the damn thing, have access to green, and pay two.
There is a big difference there.
As for this, you only need either a fetch plus wayfinder/tasigur in hand or you need commune and tasigur in your top 12 cards to play him on turn 3. That is not magical christmas land and happens fairly often. Obviously a turn two tasigur is christmasland but playing him turn 3 is reasonable and strong. I play a turn 3 hooting mandrils often in my 4c deck so I can't imagine it will be any harder in sultai.
This debate is easy enough to end. Play tasigur. He is good. Better than most cards in the deck. There is no reason not to play him. Just play him.
Done some light testing with FRF lately. I've found that Torrent Elemental is actually great at breaking board stalls, and being a recursive threat in the long game. Tasigur has not surprisingly been very effective, mostly as a cheap 4/5. Turn 1 elf followed by t2 commune followed by t2 Tasigur is a beating for a lot of decks. His ability has been very difficult to set up properly, although that may be due to a combination of small sample sizes / suboptimal play on my part. I've just found with this deck that continously casting spells to impact the board is more important than trying to craft a semi-tutor effect.
Mana efficiency and tempo are also why I've cut down to 3 Soul of Theros. Too often I find myself with multiple Souls clogging my hand. In theory tapping out for Souls every turn and forcing your opponent to deal with them is one of the strongest plays you can make, and they are great in multiples in your graveyard. However, in practice, I'm never at 12 mana and I either have a Soul already in play and need more creatures to break through a stall or I'm somewhat behind and keep having to decide between advancing the board or pumping with the Soul. I'm liking the mix so far.
Sideboard wise things are pretty up in the air. The Ashioks are quite effective in the match ups you bring them in for, and AEtherspouts is a brutally effective card against Heroic and Token based strategies. The secret sauce of this deck is being able to cast multiple spells a turn, helping you break serve when on the draw in a lot of situations, so having an extra mana efficient terror effect in Valorous Stance is pretty nice.
So what we have to ask ourselves here, is the torrent better than the roc. I can definitely see merits in both. I would lean towards the roc as it is just a more powerful spell to cast. The torrent certainly clears out any board stalls but with soul of theros already doing a lot of work there is it worth it?
Ya that was what it started out as. The ugin doesn't fit but I liked most the deck
I disagree that my deck looks much like his. The game plans are very different even though we are in the same colors. His deck is all about getting an efficient beater out early. It doesn't run den protectors or commands. Whips or nissas.
The thing I didn't like about about his deck is it has one game plan and if they can answer a few big creatures you don't have a plan b.
2 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Satyr Wayfinder
4 Den protector
4 Courser of Kruphix
2 Nissa, Vastwood seer
1 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
2 Hornet Queen
1 Dragonlord Atarka
1 Gurmag Angler
Spells:
3 Thoughtseize
1 Commune with the Gods
3 Hero's Downfall
3 Kolaghan's Command
1 Languish
2 Whip of Erebos
2 Murderous Cut
3 Bloodstained Mire
5 Forest
4 Llanowar Wastes
1 Mountain
3 Swamp
4 Temple of Malady
1 Urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Duress
3 Deathmist Raptor
2 Pharika's Cure
2 Back to Nature
2 Reclamation Sage
1 Hero's Downfall
1 Fleshbag Maruader
2 Hornet Nest
I really like the MU's vs all the abzan decks and any deck looking to value me out with one for one removal. This deck is super grindy and will value out most control decks. Decks relying on enchantments/artifacts are pretty good unless they nut draw.
The worst MU's are decks with lots of flying creatures such as the jacekai deck and BR dragons. If you land a Hornet queen or Whip of Erebos its easy enough to win, but they can get some really fast draws that you die before you can stabalize.
I think this deck has one of the best late games with being able to buy back den protector and kolaghan's command over and over again making them discard whatever they draw. This deck also has good match ups against random decks as you have answers to pretty much everything and can reuse them.
I was having trouble with mono red as well. It wasn't unwinnable but if you lost the die roll there wasn't much of a chance. Being that I play mostly online, I updated the deck to be more delve orientated. So far I'm 2-0 vs red with the new set up.
4 Satyr Wayfinder
4 Den protector
4 Courser of Kruphix
2 Nissa, Vastwood seer
1 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
1 Hornet Queen
1 Dragonlord Atarka
2 Gurmag Angler
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Spells:
3 Thoughtseize
2 Gather the Pack
1 Commune with the Gods
3 Hero's Downfall
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Languish
2 Whip of Erebos
1 Murderous Cut
3 Bloodstained Mire
5 Forest
4 Llanowar Wastes
1 Mountain
3 Swamp
4 Temple of Malady
1 Urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Duress
1 Hero's Downfall
1 Fleshbag Maruader
1 Languish
1 Murderous Cut
1 Necropolis Fiend
1 Back to Nature
3 Feed the Clan
2 Reclamation Sage
1 Hornet Queen
1 Kolaghan's Command
My first iteration of the deck had a lot more red in it, playing cards like outpost siege, abbot of keral keep, and some cheap removal but the amount of tap lands I had to play in order to play that much red was awful. The way the deck is set up now you don't usually need red until later in the game and it has rarely come up as a problem.
I really like this deck and have been playing it for about a month now. I would love to see what other people are playing in their jund decks.
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/30698_Beating-Esper.html
Whatever works for you though, I'll be done arguing about it and just keep winning with my list.
I didn't say he didn't have any. I'm saying its not nearly as good as gy recursion in a deck that mills itself. He's always been in this deck because courser is a great card and brings "synergy" to any deck that he is in. Card that come back from the gy is actual synergy with decks that mill cards into their gy.
Den protector/raptor provide more card advantage and stabilize vs aggro decks. Raptor trades with most anything and then comes back.
The deck matches up well vs disruptive decks but has trouble vs decks like heroic and the new gw aggro deck that just don't care what we are doing.
4 Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
4 Satyr Wayfinder
2 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Deathmist Raptor
4 Den protector
3 Rattleclaw Mystic
2 Dragonlord Atarka
1 Dragonlord Silumgar
1 Torrent Elemental
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
Spells (8)
2 Whip of Erebos
4 Murderous Cut
1 Hero's Downfall
1 Corpseweft
3 Forest
1 Island
3 Llanowar Wastes
4 Opulent Palace
3 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
2 Temple of Malady
1 Yavimaya Coast
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Mana Confluence
2 Frontier Bivouac
3 Thoughtseize
1 Profaner of the Dead
1 Torrent Elemental
1 Treasure Cruise
1 Merciless executioner
2 Drown in Sorrow
1 Whip of Erebos
1 Feed the Clan
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Hornet Queen
2 Sultai Charm
This is close to the list ran in the top 8 of the SCG Providence except with the deathmist raptor//den protector engine. I have tested it a good bit the past few days and believe it is a strong choice in the current metagame. The amount of recursion and card advantage the deck gets with the package lets it compete and fight through control's disruption.
the package also allows us to play more creatures, making sidisi, brood tyrant better along with corpseweft which if you havent played yet I strongly suggest trying. It is a more powerful mastery of the unseen in this deck.
As for this, you only need either a fetch plus wayfinder/tasigur in hand or you need commune and tasigur in your top 12 cards to play him on turn 3. That is not magical christmas land and happens fairly often. Obviously a turn two tasigur is christmasland but playing him turn 3 is reasonable and strong. I play a turn 3 hooting mandrils often in my 4c deck so I can't imagine it will be any harder in sultai.
This debate is easy enough to end. Play tasigur. He is good. Better than most cards in the deck. There is no reason not to play him. Just play him.
So what we have to ask ourselves here, is the torrent better than the roc. I can definitely see merits in both. I would lean towards the roc as it is just a more powerful spell to cast. The torrent certainly clears out any board stalls but with soul of theros already doing a lot of work there is it worth it?
Had that happen last night haha.
I really like the trample that rhino has in the list. Thoughts on fitting hooting mandrills in on the list?