I Feel like you get less mileage out of Liliana, Death's Majesty with only 5 Embalm creatures in the deck and two aftermath targets. I would need to test with the card to give a final verdict though.
Your local meta seems similar to mine however have you thought about going to 3 sweepers main? I have found it had little impact on our ability to control the board state.
GPG has been a problem for me as well. Its why I have switched 2 Fumigates to Settle the Wreckage In the 75 allowing some instant speed interaction verse their hordes of flying dudes.
I'm iffy on Treasure Map in the deck but I haven't played with it yet so i'll take your word on it for now.
I have waffled between both Call to the Feast and Sram's Expertise in the past. While both are good for what I wanted to do. Sram's exceedingly so(I'm still on the fence for him) I wanted another token engine.
E.Extraction and Authority are flex slots at the moment. Doomfall I flat out forgot exists that an interesting option indeed. I will have to track down some of those. Putting an extra cast or two back into the board sounds like a solid plan.
Ajani Unyielding Is a test for the moment I wanted more play with him and he feels good in the list so far. My main reason for him over Liliana has been because of how light my current list on dudes to hit with her +1.
Funny enough me and other guys who play tokens at my local shop where talking about side boarding a single Call for Unity actually.
After about two weeks of testing this is the list I have came to. At this time there are 0 U/W approach players locally as such have cut lost legacy from the board for the time being. I'm going to a Standard PPTQ with this list on the 18th and will likely bring put them back into the board. I'm looking for feedback and critique on this list.
Hello there. So last time I played magic consistently was 2014. So after a three year sabbatical I figured I would return. I have thinking about a U/B/w Draw Go control using Sun as a Win con. Thoughts?
The mana base is a first pass at this time. I'm a bit iffy on its current layout because i'm trying to support a lot of spells in the 3 mana slot that require ether BB or WW or UU.
Ever time I come to this list. I always, always try to Ram at least 2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion, well honestly thats true if i'm running any deck with W anywhere in the lands. I'll type up my orginal list at some point. I'm honestly still tempted to make this Solidly U/W and splash black just for Crux of Fate and Dragonlord Silumgar but while we are here might as well take advantage of the better removal in black. I'll have something soon tm.
Oh we in there, got my old account stuffz back. Anyway back on topic.
You are entirely right about Black being having the best answers for aggro. This was originally U/W and I brought in the black for easier interaction with resolved permanents that got by my counter magic.
I'll work up some modification to the list and toy around with them in Xmage for awhile.
Regarding Crux of Fate I'm unsure if I follow you here. If you say the meta is largely Aggro I can't seem to think of an Aggro Dragon deck I'm missing. Meaning in the most likely scenario's Crux of Fate will be put on non-Dragon, catching the Mentor...
That's a Wording mistake on my part. The Decks that are NOT entirely aggro focused. Are using dragons as finishers. I'm fine with basically using mentors as blockers to get to a crux and finish out the game with dragons. As for blight, I might actually try dub Urborg, doesn't sound that bad its something to consider. I like Bile as a card the dub black just makes it rough.
As for White.
Esper Dragons at least normally as I am aware normally only runs Ojutai as the only card in the 75 that needs white mana. In this case your right, You don't need to consistently white mana before turn 5 more likely turn 6-9.
My list runs.
16 Cards that require white mana in its 75, vs 3 which also have a colorless land that produce mana for Ojutai.
Now after playing with the list i can agree that I don't need to be so focused on white mana. Realistically I only play 1 white spell every other turn. But normally, doubly so vs aggro, i'll be playing one on turn 2. Normally Orator of Ojutai into Foul-Tongue Invocation. So I REALLY want white mana in my first two turns vs aggro (Easily 75% of my local meta).
Lack of Thoughtseize is a meta choice in this case. Aside from the 1 other control deck and the azban mid range the vast majority of the local meta are aggro decks. For example the week before was 5 back to back RDW matches. With this in mind I tried to gear the list to deal with a mostly aggro focused meta. (RDW, Mono Black Aggro) With some other dragon focused decks floating about. Once/if the meta shifts towards a more varied meta i'll have some in my 75.
Ashoik same deal as thoughtsieze I am considering going to a 1 of. Just because while the meta is aggro centric those decks are still around. And are becoming more common with each week.
Bile is Oversight plain and simple. Well not entirely true when making the deck i realized that I only had 2 deltas currently (and still do). Because of this I was trying to avoid needing Dub Black early in my list when i'm also very reliant of double blue as well.
While i'm on the topic of mana. Personally I prefer having consistent white mana. I am aware that the Esper dragon list normally only splashed white for Ojutai. Both main and post board i consistently use white mana for things other than Ojutai so having white mana for me is very important(IMO).
Ugin, i'm on the fence about him. pretty much same as Ashoik, thinking going to a 1 of somewhere in the 75.
Cave, I just plain forgot about. I'ma add that to the list.
One thing I liked about having mentor in the list is how it also interacts with Crux of Fate. As I mentioned above is how aside from aggro decks the remaining decks are running dragons as primary win cons. (aside from Azban Midrange and Super friends) Because of this in match ups where Mentor is crack Crux on non dragons and beat in the air. Or in match ups where they are more focused on their dragons. I can crux for dragons and swing through. I like having my own board be resistant to both sides of crux.
Game one was a wash for him, he got bricked on 2 land and couldn't draw anything he could cast for a third land, I jammed Ojutai on turn five and he just scooped.
Game 2:
- 2 Dissolve
- 4 Silumgar's Scorn
- 3 Banishing Light
+ 3 Arashin Cleric
+ 2 Last Breath
+ 2 Surge of Righteousness
+ 2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Second game was pretty easy going forward. T2'd a cleric and T3 Orator and chumpped to the end of time. Once my second Ojutai stuck he went the distance for the win.
Match two:
Azban Midrange 2-0
This match up is pretty hazy for me. But from what I can remember game was a slug fest of spells but Mentor eeked out the win.
Game two was pretty much the same. Sorry really hazy. :c
Match three, Mono Red Aggro with Atarka's command 1-2
Game one was a wash, mulligan to 6, 1 foul-tongue, 1 cut, 3 lands and anticipate. Proceed to get bricked on land, and lose on T5.
- 2 Dissolve
- 4 Silumgar's Scorn
- 3 Banishing Light
+ 3 Arashin Cleric
+ 2 Last Breath
+ 2 Surge of Righteousness
+ 2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Game two, Foul-Tongue + Cleric go the distance letting me stabilize at ten life. 1 Crux later + Icefall and Ojutai for the win.
Game three: I mulligan to five, and she gets the nut draw, and top decks a basic forest for the turn 4 kill with Atarka's command.
Match four: Esper Super Friends 0-1
I have played this guy before and I knew he ran zero creatures so I knew i was running basically 7 blank cards. That being said the game takes 40 minutes and while mentor went the distance. I lose to a resolved Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver that exiled about half my deck. He casts 3 of them in a row to exile my last nine cards for the win.
Things I learned.
Mentor invented the Gym for how much he lifts, he does way more work then i was expecting. If he lives a turn he just runs away with the game.
It wasn't until I fought the the control list that i realized that my board is pretty worthless vs control lists.
Also banishing light was a filler Utter Ends where in the mail.
Changes I have made.
Main Board
- 1 Orator of Ojutai
- 3 Banishing light
+ 2 Utter End
+ 2 Monastery Mentor
To be honest I completely over looked command. Over all I wasn't sure what direction I wanted to take my mid game plan. I was thinking about running dub baneslayers in place of the elpeshs. Over all have was something I wanted to actually play it before I cut it. I was looking to play a draw go style of control so that's part of the reason for mostly reaction he style of play.
Hello everyone, took a break from magic for awhile but looking at modern as an attractive format. Anyway I was looking at Esper control as a long time control player and while I saw America Control over in the proven section I just can't bring myself to put mountains in my deck. Anyway help would be very appreciated. Anyway here is a rough first draft of the deck.
Its a draft tonight so I skipped out on that, but i plan of playing U/W Control with 2 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage, 3 Terminus main board, and 3 Righteous blows in the side board, i'm iffy about that addition to the side board but with all the little dudes running around my local meta i thought I would at least try it.
I'm fond of Tibalt, and I have friend running him as a three of. Over all I see him as going to be a major player the Discard at "random" is really irrelevant, do you not to blow a good card in your hand? Play it, otherwise when looking down a 4-5 card hand you really have to do the math here, you a 20-15% change of discarding the card drew does it matter? Meh, its how you think about it. 1 in 5-6 activations are you discarding the card you drew.
Also Tibalt will slide the control mirror in your favor.
As for the most unplayable. I voted big Sorin honestly, but even he has places in the control mirror.
So i'm running her as a 2 of in my U/W Control deck. And I have gotten her -8 off before yes you win the game but i have never been in a place I need to get to this off or I lose because it simply win more. Counters for days, DOJ for days etc etc etc. But getting it off means you have expended a lot of cards to protect her, or there board state is lacking massively.
To be honest I really really like her -2. I don't use it that often but when paired with Gideon its a tidings at worst, but more often then not its drawing 4-7 cards.
I like her +1 the most, tapping down a land at worst, taping down the largest non-hexproof guy on the board has some advantages.
But all and all, I feel that Tamiyo, while powerful doesn't have the impact to be more than a 2 of main board in a control shell.
Your local meta seems similar to mine however have you thought about going to 3 sweepers main? I have found it had little impact on our ability to control the board state.
GPG has been a problem for me as well. Its why I have switched 2 Fumigates to Settle the Wreckage In the 75 allowing some instant speed interaction verse their hordes of flying dudes.
I'm iffy on Treasure Map in the deck but I haven't played with it yet so i'll take your word on it for now.
E.Extraction and Authority are flex slots at the moment. Doomfall I flat out forgot exists that an interesting option indeed. I will have to track down some of those. Putting an extra cast or two back into the board sounds like a solid plan.
Ajani Unyielding Is a test for the moment I wanted more play with him and he feels good in the list so far. My main reason for him over Liliana has been because of how light my current list on dudes to hit with her +1.
Funny enough me and other guys who play tokens at my local shop where talking about side boarding a single Call for Unity actually.
1 Ajani Unyielding
3 Vraska, Relic Seeker
Creatures
4 Anointer Priest
2 Oketra the True
2 Sunscourge Champion
Enchantments
4 Anointed Procession
1 Cast Out
4 Hidden Stockpile
2 Ixalan's Binding
4 Legion's Landing
4 Fatal Push
1 Fumigate
2 Settle the Wreckage
Artifacts
3 Renegade Map
Land
4 Concealed Courtyard
4 Evolving Wilds
1 Forest
2 Ifnir Deadlands
6 Plains
4 Shefet Dunes
2 Swamp
2 Angel of Sanctions
1 Arguel's Blood Fast
3 Authority of the Consuls
4 Duress
3 Essence Extraction
1 Fumigate
1 Sunscourge Champion
After about two weeks of testing this is the list I have came to. At this time there are 0 U/W approach players locally as such have cut lost legacy from the board for the time being. I'm going to a Standard PPTQ with this list on the 18th and will likely bring put them back into the board. I'm looking for feedback and critique on this list.
The mana base is a first pass at this time. I'm a bit iffy on its current layout because i'm trying to support a lot of spells in the 3 mana slot that require ether BB or WW or UU.
3 Approach of the Second Sun
2 Bontu's Last Reckoning
3 Duress
Instants
2 Cast Out
4 Censor
2 Disallow
4 Fatal Push
2 Hieroglyphic Illumination
4 Opt
1 Pull from Tomorrow
2 Spell Pierce
2 Supreme Will
2 Search for Azcanta
Plainswalkers
2 Gideon of the Trials
Lands
4 Concealed Courtyard
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Fetid Pools
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Irrigated Farmland
2 Plains
3 Swamp
2 Bontu's Last Reckoning
1 Duress
2 Essence Scatter
2 Flex Slot
2 Negate
2 Slash of Talons
2 Spell Pierce
2 Vraska's Contempt
I find the Draw go(d) list that Jon posted to be a very attractive list as well. I'll look into that as well.
You are entirely right about Black being having the best answers for aggro. This was originally U/W and I brought in the black for easier interaction with resolved permanents that got by my counter magic.
I'll work up some modification to the list and toy around with them in Xmage for awhile.
That's a Wording mistake on my part. The Decks that are NOT entirely aggro focused. Are using dragons as finishers. I'm fine with basically using mentors as blockers to get to a crux and finish out the game with dragons. As for blight, I might actually try dub Urborg, doesn't sound that bad its something to consider. I like Bile as a card the dub black just makes it rough.
As for White.
Esper Dragons at least normally as I am aware normally only runs Ojutai as the only card in the 75 that needs white mana. In this case your right, You don't need to consistently white mana before turn 5 more likely turn 6-9.
My list runs.
16 Cards that require white mana in its 75, vs 3 which also have a colorless land that produce mana for Ojutai.
Now after playing with the list i can agree that I don't need to be so focused on white mana. Realistically I only play 1 white spell every other turn. But normally, doubly so vs aggro, i'll be playing one on turn 2. Normally Orator of Ojutai into Foul-Tongue Invocation. So I REALLY want white mana in my first two turns vs aggro (Easily 75% of my local meta).
Lack of Thoughtseize is a meta choice in this case. Aside from the 1 other control deck and the azban mid range the vast majority of the local meta are aggro decks. For example the week before was 5 back to back RDW matches. With this in mind I tried to gear the list to deal with a mostly aggro focused meta. (RDW, Mono Black Aggro) With some other dragon focused decks floating about. Once/if the meta shifts towards a more varied meta i'll have some in my 75.
Ashoik same deal as thoughtsieze I am considering going to a 1 of. Just because while the meta is aggro centric those decks are still around. And are becoming more common with each week.
Bile is Oversight plain and simple. Well not entirely true when making the deck i realized that I only had 2 deltas currently (and still do). Because of this I was trying to avoid needing Dub Black early in my list when i'm also very reliant of double blue as well.
While i'm on the topic of mana. Personally I prefer having consistent white mana. I am aware that the Esper dragon list normally only splashed white for Ojutai. Both main and post board i consistently use white mana for things other than Ojutai so having white mana for me is very important(IMO).
Ugin, i'm on the fence about him. pretty much same as Ashoik, thinking going to a 1 of somewhere in the 75.
Cave, I just plain forgot about. I'ma add that to the list.
One thing I liked about having mentor in the list is how it also interacts with Crux of Fate. As I mentioned above is how aside from aggro decks the remaining decks are running dragons as primary win cons. (aside from Azban Midrange and Super friends) Because of this in match ups where Mentor is crack Crux on non dragons and beat in the air. Or in match ups where they are more focused on their dragons. I can crux for dragons and swing through. I like having my own board be resistant to both sides of crux.
I have been tinkering with Esper for a bit I ran this at my local FMN went 2/2 for the night
3 Dragonlord Ojutai
1 Dragonlord Silumgar
2 Monastery Mentor
2 Icefall Regent
3 Orator of Ojutai
Spells (24)
4 Anticipate
4 Dig Through Time
2 Crux of Fate
3 Banishing Light
2 Murderous Cut
3 Foul-Tongue Invocation
2 Dissolve
4 Silumgar's Scorn
3 Temple of Enlightenment
4 Temple of Deceit
2 Swamp
2 Polluted Delta
3 Plains
4 Island
2 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
4 Flooded Strand
1 Urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Self-Inflicted Wound
2 Surge of Righteousness
2 Last Breath
3 Arashin Cleric
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Perilous vault
2 Radiant purge
Game one:
Mono Black Aggro 2-0
Game one was a wash for him, he got bricked on 2 land and couldn't draw anything he could cast for a third land, I jammed Ojutai on turn five and he just scooped.
Game 2:
- 2 Dissolve
- 4 Silumgar's Scorn
- 3 Banishing Light
+ 3 Arashin Cleric
+ 2 Last Breath
+ 2 Surge of Righteousness
+ 2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Second game was pretty easy going forward. T2'd a cleric and T3 Orator and chumpped to the end of time. Once my second Ojutai stuck he went the distance for the win.
Match two:
Azban Midrange 2-0
This match up is pretty hazy for me. But from what I can remember game was a slug fest of spells but Mentor eeked out the win.
Game two was pretty much the same. Sorry really hazy. :c
Match three, Mono Red Aggro with Atarka's command 1-2
Game one was a wash, mulligan to 6, 1 foul-tongue, 1 cut, 3 lands and anticipate. Proceed to get bricked on land, and lose on T5.
- 2 Dissolve
- 4 Silumgar's Scorn
- 3 Banishing Light
+ 3 Arashin Cleric
+ 2 Last Breath
+ 2 Surge of Righteousness
+ 2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Game two, Foul-Tongue + Cleric go the distance letting me stabilize at ten life. 1 Crux later + Icefall and Ojutai for the win.
Game three: I mulligan to five, and she gets the nut draw, and top decks a basic forest for the turn 4 kill with Atarka's command.
Match four: Esper Super Friends 0-1
I have played this guy before and I knew he ran zero creatures so I knew i was running basically 7 blank cards. That being said the game takes 40 minutes and while mentor went the distance. I lose to a resolved Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver that exiled about half my deck. He casts 3 of them in a row to exile my last nine cards for the win.
Things I learned.
Mentor invented the Gym for how much he lifts, he does way more work then i was expecting. If he lives a turn he just runs away with the game.
It wasn't until I fought the the control list that i realized that my board is pretty worthless vs control lists.
Also banishing light was a filler Utter Ends where in the mail.
Changes I have made.
Main Board
- 1 Orator of Ojutai
- 3 Banishing light
+ 2 Utter End
+ 2 Monastery Mentor
Sideboard
- 1 Self-Inflicted Wound
- 2 Radiant purge
- 1 Perilous vault
+ 3 Negate
+ 1 Orator of Ojutai
Anyway, thoughts?
1x Celestial Colonnade
1x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Godless Shrine
2x Hallowed Fountain
2x Island
4x Marsh Flats
2x Misty Rainforest
2x Plains
1x Scalding Tarn
1x Swamp
4x Tectonic Edge
3x Watery Grave
Instant (16)
2x Esper Charm
3x Mana Leak
4x Path to Exile
3x Remand
2x Spell Snare
2x Sphinx's Revelation
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Supreme Verdict
2x Thoughtseize
Enchantment (1)
1x Detention Sphere
Creature (4)
4x Snapcaster Mage
Planeswalker (6)
2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2x Jace, Architect of Thought
2x Liliana of the Veil
2x Detention Sphere
3x Go for the Throat
1x Pithing Needle
2x Revoke Existence
2x Spell Snare
1x Supreme Verdict
2x Swan Song
2x Thoughtseize
Edit: Noticed a Typo my B, was 2 verdicts in the board by mistake.
Mistake on my part, used to writing from a control POV. The Control Match up is what I mean.
Also Tibalt will slide the control mirror in your favor.
As for the most unplayable. I voted big Sorin honestly, but even he has places in the control mirror.
To be honest I really really like her -2. I don't use it that often but when paired with Gideon its a tidings at worst, but more often then not its drawing 4-7 cards.
I like her +1 the most, tapping down a land at worst, taping down the largest non-hexproof guy on the board has some advantages.
But all and all, I feel that Tamiyo, while powerful doesn't have the impact to be more than a 2 of main board in a control shell.