I got to grind a few games vs. a friend the other night who was on the new UR Cruise Delver. 4 Counterbalances seems correct. I was only running three at the time but once I managed to resolve one and clean up the board with Verdict/Terminus, it was game over. TC dies to Blast, and whatever they draw will get caught in our Balance, as their curve stops at 2, except for Vortex in the board.
Ideally, you'll want to bring in some number of red blasts, blue blasts, council's judgement, verdict, pyroclasm, flusterstorm, and v.clique. If you don't have blue blast, disenchant/wear//tear is also a consideration.
Boarding out is your decision, but I feel like you want to get rid of some forces, counterspell, and maybe a jace. We didn't do sideboard games, so I haven't figured out a good formula yet.
I currently have 2x Pyroclasm in my board because it really hurts Death and Taxes, and definitely think the card shines here. You won't always take out the swiftspear (they can daze to buff it, even if you can pay the 1), but I feel like it's justified.
I kind of agree with fiend after playtesting him a few games beforehand. He kind of competes with Murderous Cut and Empty the Pits if you are running either of those. I took my list to FNM recently and it looked like this.
I was kind of just putting the sideboard together out of nowhere, but my LGS did have b/w aggro and jeskai hence the downfall and drown. Despise was in there for the same reason and for mardu midrange as well. Duneblast was supposedly for mirror or grindy matchups and utter end, abzan charm, and banishing light for things that I wouldn't expect. I went 2-1 as we only went three rounds due to the shop being relatively new. My matchups were with B/W aggro and 2 Jeskai decks. I lost in the second round. I'll post a summary of each below. Playing this deck was satisfying but I can't get a proper feel of it yet as I'll explain after the matchups.
Round 1 - B/W Aggro: I was caught off-guard game one as my opponent had an explosive start. I couldn't catch up and he just exiled my threats with Banishing Light. Eventually i folded to a board filled with his creatures followed up by a Mogis' Marauder. G2 I managed to drop a turn three rhino. I kept taking hits fast but I managed to drop my mainboard Resolute Archangel. After that it was smooth sailing til I dropped a Hornet Queen and then Empty the Pits for 12 tokens. Game three went a bit faster as I landed two consecutive rhinos, it was game after that as he ran out of gas.
Round 2- Jeskai Tempo: I lost both games this round. Both games were close matches. It was unbelievable during game one, I had him cornered and he won out of nowhere with Narset's trigger followed up by stoke and howl of the horde dealing 12. Game two I had established my board but he got in for the kill as I tried to race him which was probably a mistake on my part. I got to despise both his rabblemasters in the first 3 turns. He follows up with two topdecked Mantis Riders which I just can't race. I should have boarded in BOTH drowns and hero's downfall. I kept on topdecking land with no threats as he got to banish my siege rhino. I feel 24 lands with 7 dorks is too much. Game one leaves a very bad taste in the mouth.
Round 3- Jeskai Tempo: I went 2-1 here like in the first round. Lost game one because I didn't have enough removal and my threats were too slow. Boarded in despise and hero's downfall along with drown in sorrow. Won game two on the back of two siege rhinos and a hornet queen. He scooped a a turn after dropping the hornet because he didn't have enough burn to clear a path for his threats at that point. Same goes for game 3, a turn 3 siege rhino is really backbreaking for a tempo deck. He managed to get out a mantis rider but it got cut down fast with murderous cut. I didn't have removal but a second siege rhino followed through and his Master of the Way was just too late.
Overall I think I've changed my mind on how this deck should work; at this point it can either be a quick play ramp deck with a secondary win con for reanimating OR it can be a reanimator deck which plays mid-range (and cuts the mystics) that's closer to control. If one plays it like the latter then it would be essentially abzan midrange with a whip and you would have to change up a lot of the cards in here.
But in its current form this deck's key weakness is speed. A lot of other decks pump out threats by turn 3/4 and this deck barely does just that without the 8 mana dorks. I feel like I'll run See the unwritten as exallium makes a good point about it. Will definitely have to test more. Also if you do run 8 dorks, 24 lands seem to be a lot. I really could have fought back during my second game in the round with Jeskai that I lost. Maybe 23 will do? I need help with this though. Any suggestions for this? More painlands seem to be a reasonable answer but it punishes you if you don't play around it.
Also,you guys were right about mainboard Resolute Archangel, that card can really save you in a pinch and is way better than Necropolis Fiend. Bouncing back with this is really great as your opponents would sometimes tap out and leave themselves open too attack. Unfortunately the deck does seem to need more removal. Any suggestions guys? Especially about the sideboard. I'm looking forward to tweaking and improving this deck for future matchups.
When we're playing against an aggro deck, it's really important to know our role as the control deck, not as the aggro deck. As long as we can stave them off, get value out of drowns or blights if they're played, and get down a Siege Rhino, we can start to stabilize. After that, we can start pressuring them with Queen, and ultimately resolute archangel our way to victory. A flying 4/4 is bad enough for them. Tack on gaining 10-15 life, and it's game over. Resolute Archangel makes our life less of a valuable resource, because it's such a huge upswing. Furthermore, the lifegain we're getting off rhino negates at least one attacking creature. Mix in whip, and it's unlikely they can come back.
Same with Jeskai Tempo. The deck is amazing, but as long as we're gaining a significant amount of life, they won't be able to kill us and we'll run them over.
Being slow in this format isn't a big deal, as we are more than able to make up for it.
If you want to remove a land, add a nyx-weaver. That card is ridiculously good in this deck.
As for removal, I definitely recommend the full set of Downfalls. If you have an aggro heavy meta, consider another drown or blight (which also kills rider). If you have people running monsters, Elspeth is a beating. Duneblast seems very good here as well, though I like being able to translate into a more conventional grindy control deck if needed, and those tokens can and will kill people, or allow you to survive long enough to curve out into your top end.
Nice list exallium, I think Resolute Archangel deserves a mainboard spot because it offsets the slow start that this decks suffers. Given that though how are the Elvish Mystics working for you? Are they worth keeping? Do they perform any significant amount of mana acceleration? I currently run a list without mystics and I'm wondering if it's a mistake taking them out given as Temur Monsters absolutely smashes this deck cause they can match our monsters. I really wish that I had an Archangel at that time.
I find mystics are much more important once you get up to turn 4 and 5. You want to be hitting 6-8 mana consistently with this deck, because it means you no longer need to rely on whip to do the work for you. Being able to t1-> mystic t2-> caryatid t3-> rhino t4-> unwritten into 2 beaters is not outside the realm of possibility, but is only possible with mystic. Not to mention, if you're casting your ashen riders, you're getting your full value if they stick.
I've definitely had games when you have a few beaters trapped in your hand, and just can't get there manawise, so I wouldn't want to cut down on the mystics. If anything, I'd consider cutting a beater for the 4th Nyx Weaver to help continue to fill the yard and gain advantage out of my opponent's removal, grabbing back useful spells and getting to use them again.
Archangel is going to be a staple this standard season. Pick your set up now while they're so cheap. This format is more than slow enough for you to get to 7 mana even vs aggro decks, as long as you come prepared, and this card is the nail in the coffin. Also singlehandedly won me a game vs Jeskai Tempo because apparently a 15 point lifeswing is a big deal.
For those interested, I opted to cut Fiend because I want every high-cost creature in the deck to be high-impact, and do something the second they hit the board. Fiend just wasn't doing it for me.
I ran Valentines list (swapping Empty for the second Ashen Rider) at FNM last week and split finals after 4 rounds. In round 3, I managed to hard cast a resolute archangel at 5 life vs Jeskai Tempo to steal the game.
What do people think of her in the main board, for those that have done so?
I find See the Unwritten very appealing, but you definitely need to up your top end count.
I'd like to try something like this at FNM next week:
Basically, I think that resolute is enough of a beating to try in the main deck, and I like see the unwritten because it's easy to get 4 power with rhino, and it allows us to take some of the pressure off of GY hate, if it becomes more prevalent, and certainly off of enchantment hate.
I will say the one thing I think Valentine just about nailed was the manabase. He said he'd run the 4th heath, and thus, there it is, cutting a temple of plenty.
Vaild points. I mean, I ran Joe's list forever and love Vendilion Clique and Karakas. Losing clique+Karakas always hurt, but it is all a trade. The one thing I like about Joe's list more than anything is that it has a lot of instant speediness and tricks with Karakas. The red blasts is a hit or miss, but I liked them.
I think the blasts are fine. Brainstorm and Jace can put them back if they get into your hand, and shuffle effects can just keep em away forever. A small changeup that I know is or has been popular is to take Joe's list, and replace the mountain with a volcanic island, then replacing a REB effect with a different card, which I've seen be EE and Elspeth, or an extra swords or whatever.
I think it comes down to how much you like the 2 md effects, and how much you like mountain.
If you want to have the broadest and the most generic list, I would recommend:
2 Ponder
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
22 lands
So, -2 Ponder, -1 Snap, +2 Clique, +1 Karakas or something of that ilk. I could see that. Then you open 2 slots in the board.
I could see cutting the counterspell (still have 2 MD) for a pair of mystics and a bskull, or finding 2 more cards to improve some bad matchups. I could see running an Elspeth, Knight Errant and 3rd Snapcaster in the board as well.
Definitely 4th SDTop, that card is the centerpiece of the deck aside from Brainstorm. I dropped spell pierces a while ago. I know if you're (like me), I ran them forever and it is a hard change, but I found not having them isn't that devastating, so I changed to Einjanzer's 4 ponder list, which is smooth sailing. I was rocking Lossett's list forever and a day, and it is good. I hated not having cliques, but Einjanzer had a valid point in that clique while very powerful isn't good in every match. Einjanzer wanted to make Miracles as broad and generic as possible so during long tourney's Miracles has game versus everything and can last, hence the Ponders and lack of narrower cards maindecked. All I can say is give it a shot, it is quite impressive.
I'd agree. I'm definitely on team Einherjer at the moment. That being said, Joe's list is still very strong, and a valid option. If I thought there was going to be a very large presence of Miracles and Combo at a larger event, I would be more inclined to bring Joe's list as I think it has a bit of an edge there, but Ein's list is just so frigging consistent.
(And apparently he didn't want advice / reasons why to run cards or not run cards / discussion about his list, he just wanted to post that he'd split something)
Colonnade is bad because Miracles is reactive, and Colonnade doesn't fit in that plan with the whole "tap 5 lands per turn". Not to mention it comes in tapped.
Congrats on the finish, but I'd consider cutting a tundra and adding the 4th top. Generally, you're going to want to be fetching basics. Top is what makes the deck tick, and having redundant copies is fine.
the new squid horror might not have flash but man do I want to run it
Oh dear god no. It's so bad. A quick swords, well timed bolt, terminus, etc. just leaves you dead in the water. I'd rather run a clique in a 3 drop creature slot.
That's a fair point. Courser + Rat means you're almost never going to flood, and having a MD out to champion is nice.
I honestly think this deck should absolutely crush Affinity with or without Creeping corrosion in the board, as we are basically able to answer everything they put onto the table.
I would think Rat would be a significant downgrade, as by waiting until we have 5 lands extends us to turn 5+ just to get a threat on the board that can die to a supreme verdict (whereas thrun can regen through, though that would put him at a virtual 6). Rat also feels worse in the mirror with things like Maelstrom pulse running around.
I'd definitely be interested in seeing how Pack Rat holds up in this deck. 25 lands feels like too many, as we now, with the cutting of thrun, curve out at 3.
I think Thrun vs. no Thrun is a meta call, and depends on how much UWR control decks you expect.
I definitely like mutavault with packrat, it feels like a natural fit, but I also feel like utilizing filter lands makes colorless
lands worse, and cutting down on edges softens us vs. the colonnade/ravine decks as well as tron G1.
I don't have a lot of experience with the deck, so take that all with a grain of salt.
Ideally, you'll want to bring in some number of red blasts, blue blasts, council's judgement, verdict, pyroclasm, flusterstorm, and v.clique. If you don't have blue blast, disenchant/wear//tear is also a consideration.
Boarding out is your decision, but I feel like you want to get rid of some forces, counterspell, and maybe a jace. We didn't do sideboard games, so I haven't figured out a good formula yet.
I currently have 2x Pyroclasm in my board because it really hurts Death and Taxes, and definitely think the card shines here. You won't always take out the swiftspear (they can daze to buff it, even if you can pay the 1), but I feel like it's justified.
When we're playing against an aggro deck, it's really important to know our role as the control deck, not as the aggro deck. As long as we can stave them off, get value out of drowns or blights if they're played, and get down a Siege Rhino, we can start to stabilize. After that, we can start pressuring them with Queen, and ultimately resolute archangel our way to victory. A flying 4/4 is bad enough for them. Tack on gaining 10-15 life, and it's game over. Resolute Archangel makes our life less of a valuable resource, because it's such a huge upswing. Furthermore, the lifegain we're getting off rhino negates at least one attacking creature. Mix in whip, and it's unlikely they can come back.
Same with Jeskai Tempo. The deck is amazing, but as long as we're gaining a significant amount of life, they won't be able to kill us and we'll run them over.
Being slow in this format isn't a big deal, as we are more than able to make up for it.
If you want to remove a land, add a nyx-weaver. That card is ridiculously good in this deck.
As for removal, I definitely recommend the full set of Downfalls. If you have an aggro heavy meta, consider another drown or blight (which also kills rider). If you have people running monsters, Elspeth is a beating. Duneblast seems very good here as well, though I like being able to translate into a more conventional grindy control deck if needed, and those tokens can and will kill people, or allow you to survive long enough to curve out into your top end.
I find mystics are much more important once you get up to turn 4 and 5. You want to be hitting 6-8 mana consistently with this deck, because it means you no longer need to rely on whip to do the work for you. Being able to t1-> mystic t2-> caryatid t3-> rhino t4-> unwritten into 2 beaters is not outside the realm of possibility, but is only possible with mystic. Not to mention, if you're casting your ashen riders, you're getting your full value if they stick.
I've definitely had games when you have a few beaters trapped in your hand, and just can't get there manawise, so I wouldn't want to cut down on the mystics. If anything, I'd consider cutting a beater for the 4th Nyx Weaver to help continue to fill the yard and gain advantage out of my opponent's removal, grabbing back useful spells and getting to use them again.
Archangel is going to be a staple this standard season. Pick your set up now while they're so cheap. This format is more than slow enough for you to get to 7 mana even vs aggro decks, as long as you come prepared, and this card is the nail in the coffin. Also singlehandedly won me a game vs Jeskai Tempo because apparently a 15 point lifeswing is a big deal.
For those interested, I opted to cut Fiend because I want every high-cost creature in the deck to be high-impact, and do something the second they hit the board. Fiend just wasn't doing it for me.
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Fleecemane Lion
3 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1 Wingmate Roc
4 Hero's Downfall
4 Abzan Charm
3 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
3 Thoughtseize
3 Temple of Silence
3 Temple of Plenty
4 Llanowar Wastes
2 Caves of Kolios
2 Forest
2 Plains
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
5 Windswept Heath
4 Drown in Sorrow
2 Bile Blight
3 Nyx-Fleece Ram
2 End Hostilities
1 Garruk, Apex Predator
1 Thoughtsieze
2 Despise
Sideboard isn't complete because I've been concentrating more on the reanimator version, but this was my initial thought.
What do people think of her in the main board, for those that have done so?
I find See the Unwritten very appealing, but you definitely need to up your top end count.
I'd like to try something like this at FNM next week:
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Satyr Wayfinder
3 Nyx Weaver
4 Siege Rhino
2 Ashen Rider
3 Hornet Queen
1 Resolute Archangel
2 Whip of Erebos
4 Commune with the Gods
4 Murderous Cut
1 See the Unwritten
1 Temple of Plenty
4 Llanowar Wastes
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Forest
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Windswept Heath
4 Sandsteppe Citadel
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Resolute Archangel
1 Ashen Rider
1 See the Unwritten
4 Hero's Downfall
3 Thoughtseize
1 Bile Blight
1 Empty the Pits
1 Reclamation Sage
Basically, I think that resolute is enough of a beating to try in the main deck, and I like see the unwritten because it's easy to get 4 power with rhino, and it allows us to take some of the pressure off of GY hate, if it becomes more prevalent, and certainly off of enchantment hate.
I will say the one thing I think Valentine just about nailed was the manabase. He said he'd run the 4th heath, and thus, there it is, cutting a temple of plenty.
I think the blasts are fine. Brainstorm and Jace can put them back if they get into your hand, and shuffle effects can just keep em away forever. A small changeup that I know is or has been popular is to take Joe's list, and replace the mountain with a volcanic island, then replacing a REB effect with a different card, which I've seen be EE and Elspeth, or an extra swords or whatever.
I think it comes down to how much you like the 2 md effects, and how much you like mountain.
So, -2 Ponder, -1 Snap, +2 Clique, +1 Karakas or something of that ilk. I could see that. Then you open 2 slots in the board.
I could see cutting the counterspell (still have 2 MD) for a pair of mystics and a bskull, or finding 2 more cards to improve some bad matchups. I could see running an Elspeth, Knight Errant and 3rd Snapcaster in the board as well.
I'd agree. I'm definitely on team Einherjer at the moment. That being said, Joe's list is still very strong, and a valid option. If I thought there was going to be a very large presence of Miracles and Combo at a larger event, I would be more inclined to bring Joe's list as I think it has a bit of an edge there, but Ein's list is just so frigging consistent.
(And apparently he didn't want advice / reasons why to run cards or not run cards / discussion about his list, he just wanted to post that he'd split something)
Congrats on the finish, but I'd consider cutting a tundra and adding the 4th top. Generally, you're going to want to be fetching basics. Top is what makes the deck tick, and having redundant copies is fine.
Oh dear god no. It's so bad. A quick swords, well timed bolt, terminus, etc. just leaves you dead in the water. I'd rather run a clique in a 3 drop creature slot.
I honestly think this deck should absolutely crush Affinity with or without Creeping corrosion in the board, as we are basically able to answer everything they put onto the table.
I would think Rat would be a significant downgrade, as by waiting until we have 5 lands extends us to turn 5+ just to get a threat on the board that can die to a supreme verdict (whereas thrun can regen through, though that would put him at a virtual 6). Rat also feels worse in the mirror with things like Maelstrom pulse running around.
I think Thrun vs. no Thrun is a meta call, and depends on how much UWR control decks you expect.
I definitely like mutavault with packrat, it feels like a natural fit, but I also feel like utilizing filter lands makes colorless
lands worse, and cutting down on edges softens us vs. the colonnade/ravine decks as well as tron G1.
I don't have a lot of experience with the deck, so take that all with a grain of salt.