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  • posted a message on Jeskai Control
    I'm guessing they're trying to say that since both come into play tapped and you can't afford too many lands that always come into play tapped, they take up the same 'space' in the deck.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on Jeskai Tempo /Delver/Prowess ("The Jeskai Way" )
    I'm quite fond of Spell Snare since Modern has so many juicy targets for it, but I don't want to play more than 2 mainboard as it's so situational. I agree that Vendilion Clique is probably what the deck needs. It's an evasive threat with an effect that makes it relevant later on. I'll be picking up 2 copies as soon as I free up some funds again, which might not be for a while since I have a move coming up...
    Combined with 2-3 copies of Negate mainboard I think it will make the deck a lot stronger.

    Boros Reckoner is probably too expensive for what it does. For removal, the decks I have trouble dealing with mainly use Path to Exile or some form of black removal like a destroy effect or a -n/-n effect.
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
  • posted a message on Jeskai Tempo /Delver/Prowess ("The Jeskai Way" )
    While it feels strange to say this, I think looking for a direct replacement for Gitaxian Probe is not actually what the deck wants to do post-ban. Instead, you want to look at the specific game plan of your version and add cards that support that plan. It might be counterspells, it might be burn spells, it might be cantrips, it might be carddraw, hell it could even be creatures for some versions but in any case, there's no single answer of 'replace it with this card and you're done'.

    As to the conversation about land, personally in most matches I play I am quickly sitting on 4-5 land and I tend to end games with 7-8 land. I play 18 land in my list. I've been playing the deck regularly for months now and can count the times I've gotten mana screwed on two hands. I am aware this may be observational bias or statistical anomalies at work but over such a long period of time that seems unlikely.

    About Lightning Helix I don't think cutting it is a good idea. The fact that it gains life, deals damage and can hit either creatures or the face makes it a very versatile card. Even against more control-oriented deck it feels like the card helps me stave off their finisher long enough for me to kill them.

    In the meta I expect to face at tournaments I go to, I expect to see a good deal more Ad Nauseam, which is a terrible matchup for my version at the very least, so I'm going to try making room in my sideboard for two copies of Counterflux.

    Similarly, it feels like I need more 'hard' counters so I'm going to drop my 3rd Remand and something else for Logic Knot. I feel like I fill up the graveyard quickly enough to make use of at least two copies and I don't think the deck can afford another narrow counter i.e. Negate or Dispel.
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
  • posted a message on Burn
    Not to be an ass, but this is the Burn thread, not the Zoo thread. Goblin decks have no place here.
    Posted in: Modern Archives - Proven
  • posted a message on Jeskai Tempo /Delver/Prowess ("The Jeskai Way" )
    I played the deck at a fairly major tournament today (130+ players) and got my ass handed to me because my head wasn't in the game. I did manage to acquire Japanese foil promo Celestial Colonnades and Nahiri, the Harbinger so I may begin transitioning to a more control oriented list that drops Delver of Secrets and Monastery Swiftspear and increases the mana curve. I think with the way the meta is shifting, decks will either need to be hyper aggressive i.e. Burn, Infect or Dredge or play the longer game i.e. Tron or full control decks.

    I think Jeskai Tempo has been my 'gateway drug' towards control decks because while my Naya Burn deck was a 'better' deck tier-wise, with tempo and control decks I feel like I have a lot more control over whether or not I win the match and my skill at playing the deck and knowledge of the meta feel like they have a lot more impact.

    Having said that, I think my current list is fairly well tuned and does a lot of work. Here's what I played today:



    Some possible substitutions are in the Fetches, if you have Scalding Tarns they should probably be your first choice of fetch since the deck mainly needs blue and red mana. The rest of the manabase is pretty finely tuned, you can't really do without any of the shocks or basics and the number of fetches feels correct.

    The Slip Through Spaces are there to help keep Geist of Saint Traft alive, since once it resolves it's mainly threatened by blocks. You could replace them with Artful Dodge or Distortion Strike depending on your preferences.

    The sideboard is tuned to a wide meta. The only questionable inclusions are Electrolyze and Deflecting Palm. Deflecting Palm is my pet card, I just love smacking people to death with their own fatty, but it may not be good enough in this deck. The Electrolyzes are there for decks that play a lot of 1-toughness creatures or tokens but could probably be replaced with Forked Bolt, I just like the cantripping aspect. Decks that play Lingering Souls or Spectral Procession are where you really want them, but Anger of the Gods combined with our regular removal is probably plenty.

    With Dredge's popularity taking a nosedive, I no longer feel like I need the raw power of Rest in Peace and instead want graveyard hate that I can play without having to interrupt my regular plan. I considered Ravenous Trap instead but I disliked how it relies on your opponent filling the graveyard a lot in a single go. Relic of Progenitus was another consideration but it makes Snapcaster Mage actively terrible, which wasn't worth it for me.

    Bedlam Reveler is my answer to decks that manage to force us into the long game, a single copy backed by a Remand or Mana Leak gives you enough gas to close out the game before the opponent can stabilize. I could see playing them in the main deck and dropping 1x Lightning Helix and 1x Remand but that would require a lot of testing against a large variety of decks to make sure the 'reload' is worth the slight drop in consistency that comes from dropping the copies of important cards.


    On the whole, I think this version is the strongest of the variations. The full aggro version with more Prowess creatures feels like a worse version of Burn or Zoo. Cards like Monastery Mentor change the plan too much since they stimulate playing your cards on your own turn in a deck that mainly wants to delay the opponent's game plan long enough to build up a decent life total lead and then close out the game with creatures and burn. The slower version seems like a control deck that's trying to be one step faster than other control decks, but it loses to slower decks in card quality and to faster decks because it lacks closing speed. I also want to mention that the numbers on the cards are pretty finely tuned. I dislike playing more singletons that have the same core functionality because it raises the complexity of the deck without providing enough reward for that complexity. Part of the reason why a deck like Burn is still hard to play well is that while it may consist of cards that are the same in base function (deal 3 damage for 1 mana) the minor differences actually mean that you have to be really good at judging which one you need to cast in a given situation.

    Having said all that, if anyone has any well-founded counterpoints I'm all ears.
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
  • posted a message on Jeskai Tempo /Delver/Prowess ("The Jeskai Way" )
    Quote from CurdBros »
    Quote from Cronax »


    I think this combination is actually why you don't like Geist of Saint Traft as much: by cutting Path to Exile you're lacking the extra removal spell to keep the opponent's board clean and allow you to keep the Geist alive. I can see your reasons for not including Path, but in that case I would suggest trying out a different removal spell in its place to see if that helps your perception of the Geist. I'll admit that I haven't played the deck at any major tournaments yet but my experience so far is that the Geist allows me to change gears into a more controlling deck which has its win-con already out on the board. To clarify, my game plan is to play the first ~3 turns like a burn deck while aggro decks can't yet handle removal and controlling decks are not really interacting yet and around turn 4-5 I drop a Geist and protect it to deal the last damage. I have yet to come across a deck that could keep a substantial board presence against my version outside of a creature-heavy version of Eldrazi and Taxes. For removal, I run 4x Lightning Bolt, 4x Lightning Helix, 4x Path to Exile and 2x Vapor Snag.

    The only other deck I had some trouble keeping the board clear against was Elves but there I'm fine with trading a Geist for 4 damage (from the angel token) and 1-2 of their elves. Elves is one of the reasons I have 2x Anger of the Gods in my sideboard (the others being Merfolk and Dredge mainly).

    I play a very similar plan to your plan stated above. It falls under the aggro-control definition more so than tempo in my mind. While it does play a tempo oriented style game at the beginning of the game, the deck can end the game with aggression (reach from burn spells, unblockable spells, etc) or in a more controlling manner. I really like this version because it can side into a very aggressive deck or side into a more tempo/control oriented deck. My personal version can't really side into a true "control" deck because it only plays 18-19 lands, but I don't think my deck would be very good if I had the maindeck split between tempo and control style cards.


    I think a transformational sideboard could be done even on 18-19 lands if you just add Celestial Colonnade instead of a nonland card. Take out some creatures and side in some more counterspells and there's your control shell. My experience with the deck is that we end up with plenty of land anyways, I rarely end games with less than 6 mana. That may not be enough for a Jeskai Nahiri style control deck but I think Sphinx's Revelation and Cryptic Command along with some stuff like Dispel and/or Negate can do wonders. Snapcaster Mages can stay in, as can Delver of Secrets. Monastery Swiftspear would come out first along with possibly Path to Exile if it has no/too few targets and otherwise I could see dropping some amount of Delvers/Geists to make room for what you're bringing in. The main difference between our more aggressive style and full control style is how they plan to win vs how we plan to win but the shells are similar enough for a transformational plan I feel.
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
  • posted a message on Jeskai Tempo /Delver/Prowess ("The Jeskai Way" )
    Quote from Andrewi82 »
    3) A few simple reasons against Path:
    a) Doesn't play well with our sideboard Blood Moons.
    b) We have a few tempo based removal spells for when they land a big dude that we cant bolt away.
    c) The creatures we care about Pathing are taken care of by other board cards without sacrificing tempo by ramping the opponent's lands. Here's a few dudes for example:
    Wurm Coil Engine: We have Smash to Smithereens, so we dont cast anything that doesn't deal damage and will be coming in against Tron anyways. Also Bringing in Skulllcrack for more reach also works as a great Combat trick for swinging into a wurmcoil.
    Thragtusk/Obstinate Baloth: the lifegain is the biggest part of what they're doing. Skullcrack is big for these guys. Them having a 4/4 or a 5/3 isn't as scary when they're forced into blocking duty.
    Primeval Titan: Path gives them another basic mountain...not what we want to be doing. Jeskai Charm is great when you can shuffle the titan away with the ETB trigger on the stack to search for lands.

    4) You can kind of read this as above, but I really don't feel that Geist is a good Modern card. It really hurts my feelings to say that too lol. He just tends to not do enough and he's too hard to protect while your opponent sits on the other side with a 1/1 unblockable infect creature. He's my 2nd favorite card ever (behind Lily of the Veil), but I can't bring myself to play him in Modern.


    I think this combination is actually why you don't like Geist of Saint Traft as much: by cutting Path to Exile you're lacking the extra removal spell to keep the opponent's board clean and allow you to keep the Geist alive. I can see your reasons for not including Path, but in that case I would suggest trying out a different removal spell in its place to see if that helps your perception of the Geist. I'll admit that I haven't played the deck at any major tournaments yet but my experience so far is that the Geist allows me to change gears into a more controlling deck which has its win-con already out on the board. To clarify, my game plan is to play the first ~3 turns like a burn deck while aggro decks can't yet handle removal and controlling decks are not really interacting yet and around turn 4-5 I drop a Geist and protect it to deal the last damage. I have yet to come across a deck that could keep a substantial board presence against my version outside of a creature-heavy version of Eldrazi and Taxes. For removal, I run 4x Lightning Bolt, 4x Lightning Helix, 4x Path to Exile and 2x Vapor Snag.

    The only other deck I had some trouble keeping the board clear against was Elves but there I'm fine with trading a Geist for 4 damage (from the angel token) and 1-2 of their elves. Elves is one of the reasons I have 2x Anger of the Gods in my sideboard (the others being Merfolk and Dredge mainly).
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
  • posted a message on Jeskai Tempo /Delver/Prowess ("The Jeskai Way" )
    Quote from GofyTomcat1 »
    Hey all!!
    I AM BACK!!!

    My Boros list is eaxctly where I want it now, so now I wanna get back to Jeskai for a second deck. Any suggestions as to where to start?

    That depends on what kind of list you want to run. The three main options right now seem to be full aggro, aggro/tempo hybrid and a slightly 'heavier' build.

    The Kyle Ducharme build posted above is an example of the full aggro list. For the other two, look through the previous pages of the thread. I'm personally playing the aggro/tempo version but that version hasn't been picked up by any pros yet and I've not taken it to any decently sized tournaments yet, but it seems to have legs in testing. The slightly heavier builds are not my expertise but look for the Restoration Angel builds.
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
  • posted a message on RGx Energy Aggro
    The problem with the Pummeler version is that it trades consistency for explosiveness in my view. That's why you see it 5-0 MTGO events more often, it's very cheap to buy the deck and there are a lot of people playing it, and if you just need to 'have it' for 5 rounds then there will be times where you do manage.

    When you're taking the deck to a day-long 7+ round tournament though or even a GP, suddenly you need to 'have it' so much more often that the odds of that happening decrease dramatically.
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on Burn
    Even if I draw it after they combo, as long as I'm still alive I'm happy to drop it and start using my burn to remove their creatures, permanently this time. This is also the reason that I'm putting 2 Anger of the Gods in my sideboard.
    Posted in: Modern Archives - Proven
  • posted a message on Burn
    Quote from Ridibundus »
    If Dredge manages to deal with RiP that's fine: it already exiled their graveyard and kept them from developing their board for a while. That's usually all Burn needs to be able to turn the corner.

    But in that line of argument Ravenous Trap is better, because it lets you race them and have a 0 mana answer ready and beat their nuts. If you're playing Rest in Peace you lose 1 turn, where you can't cast Bolts and lose to their nuts (too slow).

    So, in a deck that just needs time, I think that trap is better than RiP.

    Personally I don't feel that Dredge bringing in enchantment hate is a valid reason not to play Rest in Peace because they still have to hit it and RiP completely turns off their game plan while it is in play. This potentially buys multiple rounds until they can start setting up again, as opposed to Ravenous Trap where they get to continue setting up the very next turn even in the best-case scenario.
    Posted in: Modern Archives - Proven
  • posted a message on Jeskai Tempo /Delver/Prowess ("The Jeskai Way" )
    Quote from CurdBros »
    I too like the tempo list Rafiq. I have found that Geist gives the deck an added dimension without sacrificing the rest of the decks gameplan. The top end of the deck is the part that I am still working on and it appears that's the area you are currently questioning too.

    There are so many choices in Bedlam Reveler, Restoration Angel, Chandra, Torch of Defiance, Saheeli Rai, Monastery Mentor, Cryptic Command, Ojutai's Command, Elspeth, Knight Errant, Spell Queller, Vendilion Clique, and the list goes on. I am currently trying to find the correct number of 3 CMC and 4 CMC cards for my list and the correct top end spells that compliment my earlier plan. For a long time (since Reveler was printed) I have been running two copies of Bedlam Reveler at the top end with two copies of Snapcaster Mage and a Saheeli Rai. For the last month or so I have also been running one copy of Monastery Mentor. Like I tend to do, I think I was trying to do a little too much with the top end of my main deck. So I changed the deck by:

    -1 Monastery Mentor
    +1 Snapcaster Mage

    That way I gain a bit more draw consistency and I should already be running three snapcasters anyways. He is the best blue creature in modern. Also both of them work very well with Vapor Snag and Saheeli Rai. I also added another land to the deck because I feel 19 lands is more consistent and flooding is not as much of an issue. Here is what I ended up on:


    I like the split of one Slip Through Space and one Distortion Strike. It has worked well for me, but I would probably suggest just running two copies of whichever the player prefers.

    A card I am currently thinking about adding is Peek. I might cut either a path or a vapor snag because we have so much creature removal and possibly another card to give peek a try. It would be nice to have an instant speed cantrip to flash back with snapcaster mage for value. Wizards just needs to answer my Christmas wish and reprint Opt!


    As for your build, I think you're spot on. To be honest, it looks great as it is. I would probably cut one of the planeswalkers and put them into your sideboard for more grindy matchups. That's what I did with Monastery Mentor. I also think you would be better suited with a copy of Boros Charm rather than 4 copies of Lightning Helix. It's just such a versatile card. Maybe if you do cut the planeswalker you could give a one of unblockable spell a try. Before you make any changes give it a go as you built it because it looks really great just the way you built it. Just keep these ideas in the back of your mind if something feels wrong.

    Keep us posted on how the Resto angels and cryptics go. Those are cards a ton of people would love to play if they work well. Resto works wonderfully with snapcaster mage and Geist so I assume she will be very good.


    I'm not a great fan of 1-of cards in most decks since I never draw them at the right time. The same goes for 'hedging' like with the Slip through Space and Distortion Strike, as you already pointed out. In testing it's fine to test the split out but for the final version I agree that one should pick one to stick with, as my experience with hedging is that you always draw the one that's worst for the situation you're in. It might be that I am too biased though since I am very focused on consistency both in MTG and in my professional life :D.
    In the same vein I would advocate running 4 Snapcaster Mages, especially since bolt-snap-bolt is still a legitimate win-con. I'd rather drop a Gitaxian Probe since I don't need to see my opponent's hand *that* often, 2 life can be a real cost and the cases where I really need the free prowess trigger is fairly narrow. I am however considering making room for 1 more land somewhere since I agree 18 might just be too few to consistently cast Geist of Saint Traft on-curve (and the math by Frank Karsten backs this up, I currently play 1 too few white source to reliably have one on T3). I'll have to decide between a 4th Arid Mesa, a 2nd Seachrome Coast or an Eiganjo Castle for extra Geist protection.

    I considered Chandra, Torch of Defiance but I think she doesn't fit the tempo plan well enough to go into the main and RR might be a little too constricting on the mana. Saheeli Rai might fit a little better since if she dies you've still gotten a scry out of the deal and the ideal case is copying a Geist of Saint Traft which seems like a pretty awesome deal.
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
  • posted a message on Burn
    Quote from Wukfric »
    Personally I think there's nothing better than Rakdos Charm against dredge. They pack tons of anti-hate for stuff like RIP and Cage but can't do anything against an instant speed grave whipe. It also has the added bonus of being a massive lava axe if they blow up quick and is a versitile answer for seveal other decks aswell. I know most people prefer Naya but I've never liked the Cat and I certainly don't fear dredge with 3 Charm in my board. Very impresed with Mardu overall given how good most decks are at blocking or killing creatures in the current meta. Going more spell heavy rather than focusing on creatures feels great.


    There's no need to pull Wild Nacatl into a discussion about graveyard hate. It has no relevance here. Rakdos Charm is an interesting option for Mardu, if you think your hate will get counter-hated you could consider Ravenous Trap for both Mardu and Naya instead of Rest in Piece or Grafdigger's Cage but I'm not convinced it's necessary. If Dredge manages to deal with RiP that's fine: it already exiled their graveyard and kept them from developing their board for a while. That's usually all Burn needs to be able to turn the corner.
    Posted in: Modern Archives - Proven
  • posted a message on Jeskai Tempo /Delver/Prowess ("The Jeskai Way" )
    Quote from CurdBros »
    I REALLY like the changes you made to the deck. It allows you to go very aggressive if you want to and you can also play a true tempo role.

    As for your sideboard, I would definitely cut one copy of Deflecting Palm. I absolutely love deflecting palm and I also play two copeis in my board, but they aren't great to draw in multiples and we often have other sideboard cards for matchups that we side the palms in against. I have a more "toolbox" sideboard with more one of's. I have been playing a Chandra, Torch of Defiance lately and that has been a ton of fun, but only comes in against the grindy matchups.

    What do you side the electrolyzes against? I had one in my board for a short time, but found Echoing Truth to be more useful and a also Engineered Explosives. They help attack the wide decks like tokens and zoo, but also work well against some of the fringe stuff like lantern, boggles, etc and the echoing truth can help to bounce a random Blood Moon, Worship, planeswalker, etc. I would love to hear about electrolyze because I would like to have a copy main and/or in the board.

    I don't think you need the skullcracks at all. Unless you like to side into a straight burn style deck. I would probably run Stony Silence in their place. However, if you don't see a lot of affinity, tron, and lantern you don't need them. In addition, they are a little slow so there are other options for those slots.

    How do you normally do against Jund/Abzan? You could always side a Monastery Mentor or two or Young Pyromancer or two. Mentor has been amazing aganist Jund lately for me. You could also go with Bedlam Reveler as well.

    Let me know what you think, what you often play against, and how you prefer to side (do you typically like being a tempo guy or do you like aggroing out most matchups?). I know it depends on the matchup, but most of us have a slight preference. If you don't that is fine too. It's always fun to talk sideboard options.


    Electrolyze comes in against decks that play Lingering Souls or generally have enough targets. I might try Echoing Truth in place of the Skullcracks.

    I do reasonably well against Jund, I was hoping to get another chance to try the deck against the Jund player in my LGS last FNM but he was playing an Abzan list instead. I lost because I drew too many lands in the second match but on the whole I think the deck had ample game against it. I might make some room in the sideboard for Young Pyromancers since I have a playset of those already. I also have Bedlam Revelers but I haven't felt like I needed that kind of 'refilling power' yet, the deck generally does pretty well in topdeck mode for me since there are very few dead draws.

    My style of play so far is to use the first few turns to tap out for aggressive plays while the opponent is setting up and then transition into a more tempo/control mode. This approach works well against midrange and control decks so far but I've not had an opportunity to test against a 'real' aggressive deck yet. The only aggressive deck I faced last FNM was a relatively new player with a mono-G Stompy list, where I used my removal aggressively to keep his board clear but I could have gone aggressive with my bolts and helixes since I had one or more flipped Delver of Secrets in play and they don't care about his blockers.

    I haven't given much thought to whether I side aggressively or tempo-oriented, I try to evaluate all the cards in the 75 by their merits and then decide what cards are the worst and which sideboard cards would be better in the matchup. I'm probably playing a fairly aggressive style so far since my previous deck was Naya Burn.

    On the Monastery Mentor note, I've played some matches with him on xmage and haven't been convinced yet. He tends to eat removal quickly but even when he doesn't I don't usually get to cast enough spells to really make use of him since we run out of gas. I do think there's a list to be made where he can shine though, that list would play more 1-mana spells and perhaps a bit of pump and Temur Battlerage.

    Another thing I've been considering is to make room in the 75 for 2 copies of Mutagenic Growth. It can help protect our creatures from bolts, keep Geist of Saint Traft alive against blockers and generally help do those last few points of damage a little sooner. For a aggro/tempo deck, becoming half a turn faster like that seems pretty strong. I don't want too many though or I'd lose the ability to switch between aggro and tempo on the fly.

    I think I'm a little too attached to my current sideboard for my own good right now. My experience playing Burn against Dredge has left me unwilling to play anything less than 2 pieces of graveyard hate and since Rest in Peace is the most effective version I'm running that atm. I should probably replace it with another card but I've yet to get a good chance to test my current list against the deck. With two Anger of the Gods in the sideboard as well as the two pieces of GY hate I think I'd probably do pretty well. I've been going back and forth on the Dispels and Negates. Dispel seems really efficient against decks that have enough targets but I haven't been siding it in all that often in actual matches so perhaps I should drop them. Negate is there in case there are no targets for Spell Snare or if I need an answer to planeswalkers but again I haven't felt like I needed them in actual matches so far.

    One of the decks I really want to test against is Infect, I think we are probably favoured in the matchup but if that doesn't turn out to be the case I'll try to make room in the sideboard for a Sudden Shock.

    Overall, the more I play this version of the deck the more I like it. At first I was a little afraid that the deck might be trying to do too many things at once with the aggressive spells alongside tempo spells and Geists, but the high quality of the spells combined with their versatile nature means that the deck is actually quite good at playing topdeck wars. My perception is that aggressive and tempo decks are generally bad at topdeck wars since by then they're looking to have decided the game already.
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
  • posted a message on Burn
    Quote from sp00nman »
    Quote from TheLoneN00b »
    I rearranged my sideboard a bit and seem to have a free slot. My list is pretty stock, here's my current board:



    I'm considering adding a Searing Blood since aggro decks are huge right now, but are there any cards missing I should consider?


    I've done 2 searing blood in the side for certain tournaments and have liked it. But i think it is kinda meta dependant.


    In a meta where creature-heavy decks are prevalent I'd rather run two copies of a sweeper. Volcanic Fallout if there's a lot of Fish in your meta or Anger of the Gods if there's Dredge players.
    Posted in: Modern Archives - Proven
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