Unconditional, recur-able removal of any permanent than can be tutored with Fabricate and Trinket Mage. Not sure what exactly I would use it against, but if we ever have a need to remove a late game Enchantment, Creature or Planeswalker, maybe this could be interesting. BIIIIIIIG Maybe. After all we have Oblivion Stone for that role and it hits all non-lands.
fatal push doesnt care about creature size. this is really important at the moment, with all the glass cannon decks going around... and mutagenic growths and whatnot. know what i mean?
I do know, and agree, that that would be great against stuff like Mutagenic Growth. But decks that play MG often also play Vines of Vastwood and Apostle's Blessing which still saved their creature and screw us big time. So yeah, Fatal Push is better than Spatial Contortion if they only got a pump spell, but it's still no guarantee that the creature is gonna go away.
river of tears does work great for this but isnt fetchable.
The other downside of this plan that I pointed out before is that you're casting Fatal Push on your turn if you're counting on River of Tears. I don't think that's ideal, since you want to kill their stuff at the end of their turn or in response to a pump spell that they most likely will cast on their turn. Unless you have a fetchland to crack, of some other way of getting a land into play on their turn, you will need an alternative black source to get the Instant Speed value.
The upside of this is that it kills indestructible creatures. Granted, not much application of this, but if we're talking edge cases, killing indestructibles and killing creatures after pump spells... Maybe it doesn't even out, but scale is not completely tipped over to Fatal Push's side.
So yeah, while it's nice to be able to kill an any-sized creature with CMC 2 for B, it's not a cure-all for our aggro woes and with the casting cost, it might not be entirely worth it to upset the mana base so drastically. I may be wrong (actually I hope so), but I don't think this is the removal spell we have been looking for.
Do you think with that package we can consistently get it turn 1-2? I'm thinking not but is it still worth it? MAYBE, a late game fatal push is still very valuable, so it could still work, I'm just not sure.
I seriously doubt it for two reasons: lack of "natural" black sources and the timing of River of Tears. There are only 4 black sources in my deck currently that can come down on turn 1 (6 on the draw with two Gemstone Caverns). One those black sources, only 1 (3 on the draw) will be available on the opponent's turn because River of Tears turns blue on their turn. So if you're on the play, the creature they play will likely not be removed at the end of their turn. If it's getting removed on turn two, we should just be playing Spatial Contortions.
We would definitely need to rework the manabase to include Shocklands, Checklands, Painlands, or Tango Lands. The problem then of course becomes that we are moving away from the robustness of the current base to something that dies to Blood Moon. Blue sources are tough enough to come by, having them all be Mountains would be devastating. So while Fatal Push seems like a great card on the surface, I'm afraid the cost to cast it consistently may be too high.
I even thought it would be possible with lets say 2-3 talismans and 2-3 river of tears and maybe an urborg, plus gemstone's if we get it.
I'm already doing that for a couple of different reasons, including Engineered Explosives and Dismember. Fatal Push is going to be great against some of our weakest matchups, like Merfolk, Zoo, Hatebears, and other smaller aggro decks, but it's only really good if we can cast it turn 1 consistently. Otherwise it's not much better than Spatial Contortion. I'm hoping that this manabase will allow us to do that, because you are right: I don't want to go any more non-basic as we already are, otherwise we are going to be in trouble against Bloodmoon decks.
Anyone have opinions on the 8 Rack matchup? I haven't played it much but I haven't found it to be great.
One time I lost through a mindlsaver lock because he had 2 racks out, and I couldn't get my hand size up/find a threat.
Oboro bounce back during End of Turn/Upkeep to increase hand size. Repeal, Snapcaster Mage, Solemn Simulacrum, Surgical Extraction, and Chalice of the Void are all great against the deck. My priorities are usually to surgically extract their Raven's Crimes and then just sit back and counter their discards and build the mana base to drop a threat. They usually can't handle a resolved Wurmcoil Engine.
You also need to change when to crack maps. I sometimes just play them out and crack it when I need an extra card in hand. Same for repeals: repealing your own stuff is a net card gain. Snapping back Remands from the GY on a Mindwrench is a 2 card swing and puts a clock on the opponent. If they waste spells or mana on killing him that's another couple of cards in your hand.
I try to Surgically Extract the Raven's Crime ASAP. Also side in some Spatial Contortions or Dismembers for Pack Rat after boards. After that try to play slowly and don't play lands unless you have to.
I have written a small tool which analyzes MTGO replays. It basically looks at all replays and tries to guess both decks and who won. I am hoping to analyze shoks replays. If any of you have a lot of MTGO replays you can send them to me and I'll have a look at them.
I'm hoping that the creature you're describing will one day be printed. Hope it's in Kaladesh, but I will keep waiting for a (pretty much) strict Treasure/Trinket Mage Upgrade.
Anyone else still hoping for a 3-4 CMC blue creature that lets you search up ANY artifact in Kaladesh? I'd pay 3U for a 1/1 (or 0/1) that reads the same text as Fabricate.
To add to that: I have 1X GQ + 3X Surgical Extraction in the sideboard that come in for exactly this matchup. I have had several RG Tron players straight up scoop to that turn three or four.
I like Surgical Extraction the best, but also run the relic as a rip cord sort of option.
Surgical is instant speed, essentially free and great against many decks that rely on one card or on combo pieces. With Ghost Quarter it kills Tron, great in dredge with Blood Ghast trigger on the stack (and no fetchland on the BF), good against combo, good against Nahiri Jeskai since you can usually counter their turn 4 Nahiri and then just get rid of the others or hit Emrakul as they discard her. Great against GrishoalBreach.
Overall, I'm sold on the card, play 2 of them in the SB, bring them in a lot.
Whether or not we get to look at SB isn't my first concern. I play on MTGO, so I'm used to it and won't miss it much. The utility is still huge.
I AM hoping that the whole Mindslaver effect being relevant in Standard will make them check the code and implement a fix so I can redirect damage to my opponents' Planeswalkers. So many times I would have been able to kill a PW with a hijacked Bolt but never got the option. So annoying.
Anyone have any idea how to beat RU Eldrazi Aggro yet? A typically first second and third turn goes something like this for me:
1. Drop Eye, Drop Two Mimics. I respond with land, map
2. Drop Urborg, Endless one for 4, swing for 8. I play another land.
3. Drop Eldrazi Temple, TKS, swing for 12, GG. Alternatively, I remand or Condescend TKS, they ONLY swing for 8.
4. I lose in one of many ways.
Even Spatial Contortions feel slow. At this point in time, I'm waiting for the Eye of Ugin ban and play Limited or Pauper.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/aether-revolt/28204-universal-solvent
Unconditional, recur-able removal of any permanent than can be tutored with Fabricate and Trinket Mage. Not sure what exactly I would use it against, but if we ever have a need to remove a late game Enchantment, Creature or Planeswalker, maybe this could be interesting. BIIIIIIIG Maybe. After all we have Oblivion Stone for that role and it hits all non-lands.
I do know, and agree, that that would be great against stuff like Mutagenic Growth. But decks that play MG often also play Vines of Vastwood and Apostle's Blessing which still saved their creature and screw us big time. So yeah, Fatal Push is better than Spatial Contortion if they only got a pump spell, but it's still no guarantee that the creature is gonna go away.
The other downside of this plan that I pointed out before is that you're casting Fatal Push on your turn if you're counting on River of Tears. I don't think that's ideal, since you want to kill their stuff at the end of their turn or in response to a pump spell that they most likely will cast on their turn. Unless you have a fetchland to crack, of some other way of getting a land into play on their turn, you will need an alternative black source to get the Instant Speed value.
BUT spatial just does [+]3/-3
The upside of this is that it kills indestructible creatures. Granted, not much application of this, but if we're talking edge cases, killing indestructibles and killing creatures after pump spells... Maybe it doesn't even out, but scale is not completely tipped over to Fatal Push's side.
So yeah, while it's nice to be able to kill an any-sized creature with CMC 2 for B, it's not a cure-all for our aggro woes and with the casting cost, it might not be entirely worth it to upset the mana base so drastically. I may be wrong (actually I hope so), but I don't think this is the removal spell we have been looking for.
I seriously doubt it for two reasons: lack of "natural" black sources and the timing of River of Tears. There are only 4 black sources in my deck currently that can come down on turn 1 (6 on the draw with two Gemstone Caverns). One those black sources, only 1 (3 on the draw) will be available on the opponent's turn because River of Tears turns blue on their turn. So if you're on the play, the creature they play will likely not be removed at the end of their turn. If it's getting removed on turn two, we should just be playing Spatial Contortions.
We would definitely need to rework the manabase to include Shocklands, Checklands, Painlands, or Tango Lands. The problem then of course becomes that we are moving away from the robustness of the current base to something that dies to Blood Moon. Blue sources are tough enough to come by, having them all be Mountains would be devastating. So while Fatal Push seems like a great card on the surface, I'm afraid the cost to cast it consistently may be too high.
Edit: Changes Gemstone Mines to Gemstone Caverns
I'm already doing that for a couple of different reasons, including Engineered Explosives and Dismember. Fatal Push is going to be great against some of our weakest matchups, like Merfolk, Zoo, Hatebears, and other smaller aggro decks, but it's only really good if we can cast it turn 1 consistently. Otherwise it's not much better than Spatial Contortion. I'm hoping that this manabase will allow us to do that, because you are right: I don't want to go any more non-basic as we already are, otherwise we are going to be in trouble against Bloodmoon decks.
Oboro bounce back during End of Turn/Upkeep to increase hand size. Repeal, Snapcaster Mage, Solemn Simulacrum, Surgical Extraction, and Chalice of the Void are all great against the deck. My priorities are usually to surgically extract their Raven's Crimes and then just sit back and counter their discards and build the mana base to drop a threat. They usually can't handle a resolved Wurmcoil Engine.
You also need to change when to crack maps. I sometimes just play them out and crack it when I need an extra card in hand. Same for repeals: repealing your own stuff is a net card gain. Snapping back Remands from the GY on a Mindwrench is a 2 card swing and puts a clock on the opponent. If they waste spells or mana on killing him that's another couple of cards in your hand.
I try to Surgically Extract the Raven's Crime ASAP. Also side in some Spatial Contortions or Dismembers for Pack Rat after boards. After that try to play slowly and don't play lands unless you have to.
Holy crap!!! Any chance you would be willing to open this up on GitHub? I'd be willing to contribute a front end to this.
Surgical is instant speed, essentially free and great against many decks that rely on one card or on combo pieces. With Ghost Quarter it kills Tron, great in dredge with Blood Ghast trigger on the stack (and no fetchland on the BF), good against combo, good against Nahiri Jeskai since you can usually counter their turn 4 Nahiri and then just get rid of the others or hit Emrakul as they discard her. Great against GrishoalBreach.
Overall, I'm sold on the card, play 2 of them in the SB, bring them in a lot.
I AM hoping that the whole Mindslaver effect being relevant in Standard will make them check the code and implement a fix so I can redirect damage to my opponents' Planeswalkers. So many times I would have been able to kill a PW with a hijacked Bolt but never got the option. So annoying.
It's interesting, seeing that he might be getting on the Ugin Train.
8 Island
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
1 Tectonic Edge
4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Urza's Tower
4 Expedition Map
1 Cyclonic Rift
4 Remand
1 Snapcaster Mage
3 Talisman of Dominance
4 Thirst for Knowledge
2 Treasure Mage
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Solemn Simulacrum
2 Chalice of the Void
4 Repeal
4 Condescend
2 Mindslaver
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Platinum Angel
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Sundering Titan
2 Spell Snare
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Squelch
3 Dismember
3 Spatial Contortion
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Bottle Gnomes
1. Drop Eye, Drop Two Mimics. I respond with land, map
2. Drop Urborg, Endless one for 4, swing for 8. I play another land.
3. Drop Eldrazi Temple, TKS, swing for 12, GG. Alternatively, I remand or Condescend TKS, they ONLY swing for 8.
4. I lose in one of many ways.
Even Spatial Contortions feel slow. At this point in time, I'm waiting for the Eye of Ugin ban and play Limited or Pauper.