I had an... incident involving them a while ago. Long story short, if I EVER reopen my account or rejoin, I have to videotape myself eating my Commander's Arsenal and From the Vault collection (of which I own all cards from CA and every FTV). It was such a terrible experience that I had to set such a high stipulation as a reminder of just how bad it was.
Do any cards of Zendikar Expeditions come with a common, uncommon, or rare symbol? No. We've seen one card from each land cycle and they all have the mythic rare label. You also keep saying "expedition cards in BFZ." These are not in BFZ. They are not part of the set. They can be found in some boosters, much like KTK fetches and RTR/GTC shocks were in FRF and DGM respectively. That doesn't make them part of the set. It doesn't even have the same set symbol!
My terminology may be unclear here. When I am talking about for example "BFZ" or "FTV: Realms", I am referring to the "product", the SKU that you can purchase. So for me "BFZ" = "BFZ cards" + "expedition cards" because they are both delivered in the same SKU.
I do not look at the rarity of the SKU but rather the card rarity inside the SKU, because that's what MaRo also does in his article: he is addressing the (then) new Mythic rarity inside the Shards of Alara and future SKUs.
So I suspect that our argumentations are existing next to eachother due to different interpretations of "rare".
MaRo has never mentioned the term "SKU" as far as I know. SKU is only a term used for products/packaging numbers. The article doesn't reference SKUs at all. Shards of Alara, to a designer/developer like him is a set, not a product, and therefore he wouldn't be discussing SKUs in the sense that you're suggesting.
You see this as a product/SKU and interpret it as such, however MaRo's statement and what I'm trying to explain to you is from this being two sets, one existing in the packaging of another. They aren't making utility lands at mythic rare in BFZ, just the rare promotional set Zendikar Expeditions.
I'm not going to keep trying to debate this or show you my point of view and that of many others.
What it seems to come down to and what I'm seeing from your responses is that you're upset about the distribution of Zendikar Expeditions and generally upset about how WOTC is managed and operated.
Whoa there, how do you go from my view on expedition cards to my views on WOTC in general? Overshooting it a bit? There are way more facets to paper WOTC (don't partake in the online component so no opinion there) than expedition cards or the goyf lottery, and to each of these facets is a subjective weight attached. The weighted average of all of them is an indication of my opinion on WOTC, and right now that's still markedly positive. I wouldn't be on this forum or playing the game otherwise.
I have to apologize to you for this one... I took your statements of disappointment about how they broke their principles (your point of view) and combined it with the guy who came in on your side at a much more extreme "I hate WOTC for doing this" position and confused you two as one single poster. That's my fault and I apologize.
According to you, Murmuring Bosk and Grove of the Burnwillows are dual/tri lands and labeled as mythic rare in the special set FTV: Realms, expeditions are a special set like FTV, so there.
The thing is: being mythic rare in a FTV set is just a label. They could have slapped a common expansion symbol on all the lands in FTV: Realms or make a hologaphic shooting star, and they would be exactly as rare with those symbols as with the mythic rare sticker they now sport. It cannot be compared to the rarity distribution in a conventional set release, as there is no distribution in FTV: Realms other than "buy an instance of the product and you are guaranteed to get every land on the list exactly once".
The expedition cards in BFZ, however, do have a rarity in the conventional sense because of the one fact that they will populate the foil slot in a booster. Consequently, every expedition card is at the very least rarer than rare in the conventional sense because you are guaranteed a rare or mythic rare in each booster, but not a foil. And I shouldn't even speculate on the distribution of the expedition cards because who knows? Maybe, if you do ever happen upon an expedition, it is most likely that you'll get one of the new BFZ duals? BFZ duals would be like common expeditions, shock lands uncommon expeditions and fetches rare expeditions? Right now, only WOTC knows.
So no, you cannot compare expedition cards to special releases like FTV or Commander's Arsenal and yes, we can still look at MaRo's statement and see how utility cards he specifically mentioned as an example are now being distributed at a rarity (in the conventional sense) which is rarer than rare. Which WOTC specifically wasn't going to do. Granted, back in 2008, that was...
You're still avoiding/missing the point.
Do any cards of Zendikar Expeditions come with a common, uncommon, or rare symbol? No. We've seen one card from each land cycle and they all have the mythic rare label. You also keep saying "expedition cards in BFZ." These are not in BFZ. They are not part of the set. They can be found in some boosters, much like KTK fetches and RTR/GTC shocks were in FRF and DGM respectively. That doesn't make them part of the set. It doesn't even have the same set symbol!
The analogy to FTV still stands since the Expedition lands have "the mythic rare sticker they now sport." Mythic rare is just a label, but it also signifies a low print run, same with FTV. Stores only get between 3 and 15 or so FTV sets depending on the size of the player base. It's rare and typically hard to find in the past. This is about the same thing, but on a larger scale. Finding one of these is about the same as many people trying to find an FTV set at a local store. If you aren't friends with the owner or weren't one of the first few to put your name down, chances are you won't get one. Zendikar Expeditions being found in random BFZ booster packs is just a different way to go about distributing a rare print run of a collector's set. They couldn't stick all 45 foil full art lands in a box like From the Vault, because what would that price be? Probably several thousand, especially with some lands going for $200 each on eBay right now. I could see all 45 in an FTV style box being sold around $4000 or more. Then there is distribution. They'd probably send between 2 or 4 to each LGS like what happened with Commander's Arsenal (which, by the way, did NOT go over well. Prices were through the roof depending where you looked and people weren't happy with the limited supply). It's a niche product and instead of selling it in a neat box for several thousand and shipping a couple to each store, what is the best way to distribute these cards? Probably similar to how Priceless Treasures worked. We are back on Zendikar after all and everyone generally loved how that promotion worked. How would you have gone about putting this product out there? Or would you have never let it see the light of day? The way they're doing it is just a different way to distribute an FTV-like set.
And again, this is a reprint. This is not something that is standard legal and is in no way meant to lower prices or increase supply. FTV isn't meant to do that either, but sometimes it does for the first year or two. It's meant as a collector's set, not a "this is the only reprint you'll get" sort of thing and as such, this has nothing to do with MaRo's statement in the slightest way.
What it seems to come down to and what I'm seeing from your responses is that you're upset about the distribution of Zendikar Expeditions and generally upset about how WOTC is managed and operated.
People need to stop being so entitled. Big deal if you never crack one and can't afford one. I don't ever plan on owning one. Just because there's something you want and can't have doesn't mean that Wizards is doing anything wrong.
In fact, kudos to Wizards for finding another way to drive sales of another Standard set to keep the game healthy.
I literally have never understood this counterpoint. It's not a matter of entitlement at all. It's a dangled carrot at a fan base already kinda exhausted at the ridiculous prices we're shelling out for this game. It's offensive, this game is expensive enough. I've already come to grips with the fact I may only ever see one or two in my collection. That I can live with, I have my shocks and fetches. The fact that it's a nice product that everyone could enjoy, but they're making it solely to a very small subset instead is a slap in the face to those who can't/won't get it.
I think you need to check the definition of entitlement. It doesn't mean what you think it means.
entitlement(n.)
1. The fact of having a right to something
2. the amount to which a person has a right
3. the belief that one is inherently deserving of privileges or special treatment
No, I think we get the definition. Being upset that everyone can't or won't get one is the third definition exactly.
"A Mercedez is a nice product that everyone could enjoy but it's price makes it so it is solely for a small subset of the population is a slap in the face to everyone driving a beat up '99 Honda Civic because they can't afford it or won't buy one."
Feeling that everyone should have something but is out of most people's price range is entitlement.
Well, with some notable exceptions: Voice of Resurgence, Monastery Mentor, Soulfire Grandmaster, and since we're talking about Zendikar, Lotus Cobra and Warren Instigator, plus any 2-3cc non-legendary in Modern Masters. These are staple cards that have broken the principle MaRo stated way back when, and we've all been contented to keep our mouths shut and our wallets open despite that. Every one of these were at one point or another, staple cards that are 4-ofs in formats they're played in, and while people grumble, they still shell out whatever the price has been set at.
These lands are so rare even that isn't possible. Pure bling, promotional, overpriced. On the other end of the spectrum, they're beautiful, original, and hotly desired. If you're smart, you're making these available widely to generate buzz and get people cracking packs who may not normally do so. If you're an idiot, you make them so premium and rare that only a select group of rabid fans with deep pockets can get them on the secondary market, benefiting neither your profit margin, nor your good will to the fan base.
Wizards seems hell bent on making Magic packs more like a slot machine in a casino and a lot less interested in selling packs in droves. This entire model is counter-productive and is starting to make me, and a lot of other people, justifiably upset in this direction of their business. It seems lose/lose to all involved, customers and Wotc, and only benefits secondary market sellers and people with enormous wallets and matching egos.
You just named cards that were printed in a set once. Maro's examples are Mutavault, dual lands, and Char. You named chase cards in a few sets, not long standing staples. Utility lands and duals will always be needed for consistent decks. Everything you named started as a mythic rare, not something from the past or usable/needed in every deck. If you play Modern with two colors, you need mana fixing, so shocks and fetches are typically needed but not always required. Shocks were printed twice and allied fetches twice. Neither time were they mythic rare in a set. They are now, but Zendikar Expeditions isn't a regular set and most of the cards aren't even Standard legal anyway, much like what FTV winds up being every year: not a regular set and little to no Standard legal cards.
Not once have I played any of those mythic rares you named in Standard (or Modern for that matter). Plus, it's not like they were rare or uncommon at one point years ago and all of a sudden they show up as a mythic rare when reprinted. If Aven Mindcensor showed up in Oath of the Gatewatchers as a mythic rare, people would rightfully be upset. If it was upgraded to a rare, someone might be upset, but it's a $10 uncommon and it's powerful, so logically upgrading to a rare isn't that bad and would be somewhat expected.
Those cards weren't "staple" cards when printed. They become staples when they were used in tournament-winning decks. Lightning Bolt, Aether Vial, Shocklands, Fetchlands, Spellskite, etc. are staples and have been for some time. Someone is playing at least one of those in every Modern tournament. If the card you named didn't start out at mythic rare and were instead rare, rotate out of Standard and show up as mythic rare in the next set, then it becomes a problem and a contradiction to what MaRo said.
As far as Modern Masters goes, it took cards from before mythic rare was invented and applied the new rarity accordingly to the really powerful cards. Sure Tarmogoyf and Dark Confidant could have been rare in both Modern Masters sets, but what would have been in their place? They also skew draft, which was another reason why they weren't kept at rare. It wasn't done just because they could, it was done for how MM was meant to be played: in a draft.
Any foil promo that isn't a mass-produced FNM/Game Day/Release Day/Prerelease promo is really rare and only a select few can afford to snatch them up/play them anyway. It's been that way for a while.
No one absolutely has to have every foil promo, no one absolutely has to open booster packs, and no one absolutely has to play Magic or like the Wizards of the Coast business model. I used to be upset that it was impossible to obtain the SDCC Planeswalkers at a reasonable price, but then I got over it by realizing that I truly didn't need them and at this point, I don't mind that I don't have them. I'll pick them up one day, but having them won't make me a better player or impress anyone.
"We've also decided that there are certain things we specifically do not want to be mythic rares. The largest category is utility cards, what I'll define as cards that fill a universal function. Some examples of this category would be cycles of dual lands and cards like Mutavault or Char." - Mark Rosewater, 2008
So for me, MaRo's quote above is a personal measuring stick as to how fair WOTC is to their community, how they give new players who are getting into formats a chance to acquire the Utility they need. So far, they never broke that logic and I applauded them for upholding it with Return to Ravnica and Khans of Tarkir. Shock Lands and Fetch Lands at rare, printed ad infinitum for a year - perfect, and fair.
But then they did this. Now technically, MaRo's passage still holds true: after all, the expedition cards are not mythic rares...
They are *FOIL* mythic rares. ba-dum-tssshhh etc.
Should you find an expedition card, look at it as a cool extra, something special and nothing more. Except, perhaps, the realisation that WOTC crossed a very important line: one of their principles. One I personally hold important.
In conclusion: WOTC, I am disappoint.
I cut out a lot of the long bits so my post isn't too long, but there is something you don't know or are avoiding or forgetting:
They aren't printing these at foil mythic rarity in a regular set (because they've stated multiple times that Zendikar Expeditions is not a part of Battle for Zendikar) so WOTC/Maro isn't breaking its/his principles. Murmuring Bosk and Grove of the Burnwillows are two examples of dual lands being at a higher rarity than the regular cards despite the 2008 statement about not printing duals at mythic rarity. Expeditions is a special set like FTV, except it's found in random booster packs instead of a magnetically sealed box with a spindown and a poster. Don't confuse this with a normal printing like the shock lands, etc. Any normal set won't have mythic rare duals is Maro's point, not that it won't happen, just that when they are printed or reprinted in a regular set for the Standard environment and in large quantity, they'll stay rare and easy to obtain. Promos and special sets have always been fair game.
Baselands sounds too much like basic lands. "Hey, you see the new baselands?" "Oh yeah, Noah Bradly's full arts look amazing!" See? If you want to have a verbal conversation, it doesn't quite work. I get the whole concept of base and basic, but come on...
Laglands might be an okay name, but it has a negative connotation.
Double Checks is too wordy. And don't even get me started on those State Farm commercials.
For everyone suggesting Slow Lands, you might want to check out the MTGS wiki... Slow Lands already exist. They were legitimately slow and I'd have to say one of the worst land cycles to ever be printed. The name is taken and the Tango Lands are streets ahead in comparison to Slow Lands anyway.
To be fair, Fastlands are also called Scar Lands. We can have two names for them.
I've been looking at preordering ZvE, and it appears most places selling it are announcing two spindown life counters in the box. I have yet to see that mentioned here and it's not on the WPN products page, so I'm not entirely sure it's true, but I just wanted to bring that to everyone's attention.
What if, and hear me out, the twenty basic lands that are regular art were really colorless basic lands? If any of you who are complaining about the lands not being full art play a colorless commander in EDH like Karn or will play a viable colorless deck (assuming Colorless Matters is a theme in BFZ and we actually get a colorless basic) in Standard or potentially Modern, I get the feeling $25 is no longer a big deal. You would get a nice chunk of colorless basics in this plus five boosters. Wouldn't be worthless anymore, would it?
I know this takes a lot of assumptions, but there is speculation we'll see the colorless basic land in BFZ with an appropriate colorless theme, so it may not be so far off...
So far, no card printed in an FTV set has been printed in another FTV. With that, I'm assuming JtMS won't be in FTV: Planeswalkers when we get one. I would expect LotV, Nicol Bolas, one of the six flips, maybe one of the Commander 2014 walkers, oh and Tibalt. Just because...
It'd probably have one version of each of the Lorwyn Five.
I'm still holding out for Mistform Ultimus in this FtV. Lightning Angel with new art and foiling would be awesome as well.
I sort of feel like Mistform Ultimus would belong in FTV Changelings or something... It does fit in any creature themed FTV though...
A really off-the-wall FTV set I just thought of would be From the Vault: Planechase with fifteen foil plane and phenomenon cards including an alternate art Tazeem
So far, no card printed in an FTV set has been printed in another FTV. With that, I'm assuming JtMS won't be in FTV: Planeswalkers when we get one. I would expect LotV, Nicol Bolas, one of the six flips, maybe one of the Commander 2014 walkers, oh and Tibalt. Just because...
It'd probably have one version of each of the Lorwyn Five.
Another thing that is interesting is these Eldrazi are not getting shuffled back into the library like the old mythics. I wonder if this represents them actually being killable in the storyline? Maybe,Giddy Giddeon figured out how to kill one for good.
That was the legendary Eldrazi though. All the others were still able to be killed and even the recent Uncharted Realms featuring Gideon on Zendikar and had some Eldrazi dying.
Since Oblivion Sower isn't legendary, we can't assume that some can't get shuffled back in.
MaRo has never mentioned the term "SKU" as far as I know. SKU is only a term used for products/packaging numbers. The article doesn't reference SKUs at all. Shards of Alara, to a designer/developer like him is a set, not a product, and therefore he wouldn't be discussing SKUs in the sense that you're suggesting.
You see this as a product/SKU and interpret it as such, however MaRo's statement and what I'm trying to explain to you is from this being two sets, one existing in the packaging of another. They aren't making utility lands at mythic rare in BFZ, just the rare promotional set Zendikar Expeditions.
I'm not going to keep trying to debate this or show you my point of view and that of many others.
I have to apologize to you for this one... I took your statements of disappointment about how they broke their principles (your point of view) and combined it with the guy who came in on your side at a much more extreme "I hate WOTC for doing this" position and confused you two as one single poster. That's my fault and I apologize.
You're still avoiding/missing the point.
Do any cards of Zendikar Expeditions come with a common, uncommon, or rare symbol? No. We've seen one card from each land cycle and they all have the mythic rare label. You also keep saying "expedition cards in BFZ." These are not in BFZ. They are not part of the set. They can be found in some boosters, much like KTK fetches and RTR/GTC shocks were in FRF and DGM respectively. That doesn't make them part of the set. It doesn't even have the same set symbol!
The analogy to FTV still stands since the Expedition lands have "the mythic rare sticker they now sport." Mythic rare is just a label, but it also signifies a low print run, same with FTV. Stores only get between 3 and 15 or so FTV sets depending on the size of the player base. It's rare and typically hard to find in the past. This is about the same thing, but on a larger scale. Finding one of these is about the same as many people trying to find an FTV set at a local store. If you aren't friends with the owner or weren't one of the first few to put your name down, chances are you won't get one. Zendikar Expeditions being found in random BFZ booster packs is just a different way to go about distributing a rare print run of a collector's set. They couldn't stick all 45 foil full art lands in a box like From the Vault, because what would that price be? Probably several thousand, especially with some lands going for $200 each on eBay right now. I could see all 45 in an FTV style box being sold around $4000 or more. Then there is distribution. They'd probably send between 2 or 4 to each LGS like what happened with Commander's Arsenal (which, by the way, did NOT go over well. Prices were through the roof depending where you looked and people weren't happy with the limited supply). It's a niche product and instead of selling it in a neat box for several thousand and shipping a couple to each store, what is the best way to distribute these cards? Probably similar to how Priceless Treasures worked. We are back on Zendikar after all and everyone generally loved how that promotion worked. How would you have gone about putting this product out there? Or would you have never let it see the light of day? The way they're doing it is just a different way to distribute an FTV-like set.
And again, this is a reprint. This is not something that is standard legal and is in no way meant to lower prices or increase supply. FTV isn't meant to do that either, but sometimes it does for the first year or two. It's meant as a collector's set, not a "this is the only reprint you'll get" sort of thing and as such, this has nothing to do with MaRo's statement in the slightest way.
What it seems to come down to and what I'm seeing from your responses is that you're upset about the distribution of Zendikar Expeditions and generally upset about how WOTC is managed and operated.
B = Big Set/Large Set
So instead of the normal one small set booster and two large set boosters, it's now two small set boosters and one large set booster.
entitlement (n.)
1. The fact of having a right to something
2. the amount to which a person has a right
3. the belief that one is inherently deserving of privileges or special treatment
No, I think we get the definition. Being upset that everyone can't or won't get one is the third definition exactly.
"A Mercedez is a nice product that everyone could enjoy but it's price makes it so it is solely for a small subset of the population is a slap in the face to everyone driving a beat up '99 Honda Civic because they can't afford it or won't buy one."
Feeling that everyone should have something but is out of most people's price range is entitlement.
You just named cards that were printed in a set once. Maro's examples are Mutavault, dual lands, and Char. You named chase cards in a few sets, not long standing staples. Utility lands and duals will always be needed for consistent decks. Everything you named started as a mythic rare, not something from the past or usable/needed in every deck. If you play Modern with two colors, you need mana fixing, so shocks and fetches are typically needed but not always required. Shocks were printed twice and allied fetches twice. Neither time were they mythic rare in a set. They are now, but Zendikar Expeditions isn't a regular set and most of the cards aren't even Standard legal anyway, much like what FTV winds up being every year: not a regular set and little to no Standard legal cards.
Not once have I played any of those mythic rares you named in Standard (or Modern for that matter). Plus, it's not like they were rare or uncommon at one point years ago and all of a sudden they show up as a mythic rare when reprinted. If Aven Mindcensor showed up in Oath of the Gatewatchers as a mythic rare, people would rightfully be upset. If it was upgraded to a rare, someone might be upset, but it's a $10 uncommon and it's powerful, so logically upgrading to a rare isn't that bad and would be somewhat expected.
Those cards weren't "staple" cards when printed. They become staples when they were used in tournament-winning decks. Lightning Bolt, Aether Vial, Shocklands, Fetchlands, Spellskite, etc. are staples and have been for some time. Someone is playing at least one of those in every Modern tournament. If the card you named didn't start out at mythic rare and were instead rare, rotate out of Standard and show up as mythic rare in the next set, then it becomes a problem and a contradiction to what MaRo said.
As far as Modern Masters goes, it took cards from before mythic rare was invented and applied the new rarity accordingly to the really powerful cards. Sure Tarmogoyf and Dark Confidant could have been rare in both Modern Masters sets, but what would have been in their place? They also skew draft, which was another reason why they weren't kept at rare. It wasn't done just because they could, it was done for how MM was meant to be played: in a draft.
Any foil promo that isn't a mass-produced FNM/Game Day/Release Day/Prerelease promo is really rare and only a select few can afford to snatch them up/play them anyway. It's been that way for a while.
No one absolutely has to have every foil promo, no one absolutely has to open booster packs, and no one absolutely has to play Magic or like the Wizards of the Coast business model. I used to be upset that it was impossible to obtain the SDCC Planeswalkers at a reasonable price, but then I got over it by realizing that I truly didn't need them and at this point, I don't mind that I don't have them. I'll pick them up one day, but having them won't make me a better player or impress anyone.
I cut out a lot of the long bits so my post isn't too long, but there is something you don't know or are avoiding or forgetting:
They aren't printing these at foil mythic rarity in a regular set (because they've stated multiple times that Zendikar Expeditions is not a part of Battle for Zendikar) so WOTC/Maro isn't breaking its/his principles. Murmuring Bosk and Grove of the Burnwillows are two examples of dual lands being at a higher rarity than the regular cards despite the 2008 statement about not printing duals at mythic rarity. Expeditions is a special set like FTV, except it's found in random booster packs instead of a magnetically sealed box with a spindown and a poster. Don't confuse this with a normal printing like the shock lands, etc. Any normal set won't have mythic rare duals is Maro's point, not that it won't happen, just that when they are printed or reprinted in a regular set for the Standard environment and in large quantity, they'll stay rare and easy to obtain. Promos and special sets have always been fair game.
Baselands sounds too much like basic lands. "Hey, you see the new baselands?" "Oh yeah, Noah Bradly's full arts look amazing!" See? If you want to have a verbal conversation, it doesn't quite work. I get the whole concept of base and basic, but come on...
Laglands might be an okay name, but it has a negative connotation.
Double Checks is too wordy. And don't even get me started on those State Farm commercials.
For everyone suggesting Slow Lands, you might want to check out the MTGS wiki... Slow Lands already exist. They were legitimately slow and I'd have to say one of the worst land cycles to ever be printed. The name is taken and the Tango Lands are streets ahead in comparison to Slow Lands anyway.
To be fair, Fastlands are also called Scar Lands. We can have two names for them.
That'll be in Battle for Zendikar. Probably won't do it in this Duel Deck for that reason.
Did that a few months ago actually. Picked up a playset of foils too.
I know this takes a lot of assumptions, but there is speculation we'll see the colorless basic land in BFZ with an appropriate colorless theme, so it may not be so far off...
Yes! Maybe some alternate art?
I sort of feel like Mistform Ultimus would belong in FTV Changelings or something... It does fit in any creature themed FTV though...
A really off-the-wall FTV set I just thought of would be From the Vault: Planechase with fifteen foil plane and phenomenon cards including an alternate art Tazeem
So far, no card printed in an FTV set has been printed in another FTV. With that, I'm assuming JtMS won't be in FTV: Planeswalkers when we get one. I would expect LotV, Nicol Bolas, one of the six flips, maybe one of the Commander 2014 walkers, oh and Tibalt. Just because...
It'd probably have one version of each of the Lorwyn Five.
That was the legendary Eldrazi though. All the others were still able to be killed and even the recent Uncharted Realms featuring Gideon on Zendikar and had some Eldrazi dying.
Since Oblivion Sower isn't legendary, we can't assume that some can't get shuffled back in.