I was wondering how you deal with Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger. I haven't played any since RtZ as my meta was so saturated with that [insert string of curse words] that I ended up running a 2 / 2 split of Infinite Obliteration. Unless I resolved that before they resolved him on like turn 5-7, it was usually a game over as they'd start chaining him and destroy my land base. I understand that having more exile effects will help, but the land destruction was brutal for me. Getting knocked off a color and then getting taken down to 4ish lands was just too much to recover from.
You just have to battle through it. It is not easy, but I have uploaded a Cockatrice replay for you to watch if you want. It is not really a game where Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger was played, but it was a game where my opponent had me under World Breaker recursion. He cast 8 World Breakers on me in the game, and 3 Chandra, Flamecaller while he was ahead. I still won the game, and I was even hampered on the amount of B mana I had at some rather inconvenient times - but in fairness, I also was drawing them at very convenient times.
A few things to note.
The Eldrazi Package
This package does not always consist of 3 or 4 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger. Often times, the real back breaking card is World Breaker. He can drop earlier and start wreaking havoc on your 3 color mana base (as displayed in the replay). Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger is something you can leverage with. He is slow, and if you can cut off the ramp he is even slower. This allows you to build your mana base up and start getting threats out. Your ideal goal is to give them something else to target other than your land. If they have to exile Jace, Unraveler of Secrets, or Sorin, Grim Nemesis instead of 2 lands, you are still very much in the game. In the replay, you will see that I was aggressive with trying to flip Jace, Vryn's Prodigy. If you have the spells to work on a low curve, get aggressive with your planeswalkers. Whether or not the land matters or if your threat matters, is something you need to gauge. If you can get the threat out under the land destruction, then the land destruction hurts a lot less. If you cannot get the threat out under it, you need to focus on stalling it as long as possible. Anything above 6 lands is fluff and you can lose them to triggers without being out of the game. The Eldrazi package does not always run Reality Smasher either. It caught me off guard in the replay, but you can work around it.
Playing for the Long Game
The GR Elzrazi Ramp has a really solid late game, but something to keep in mind is that a good portion of their deck is devoted to getting their late game into play much earlier, so when the late game arrives, they draw a lot of those fuel cards that are not really doing anything. Always play for the long game here, and the longer game you play for, the better your chances of making optimal plays are because you have more live cards to keep a top deck war in your favor.
Diverting Their Plan of Attack
Discard spells are pretty enticing, as they can do a lot of work. You can use these to help you force them to focus on another line of play, but it is not entirely necessary. It will make your game a lot smoother, but consider what you are giving up for those spells. I personally like Pick the Brain over Infinite Obliteration. Both cost 3 mana, and one will hit everything without the need for Delirium, but the effect is not always necessary and the trade off is that if you have Delirium, you can take all their Chandra, Flamecallers as well. I like this because it become applicable in a Control vs Control match. Really though, forcing them to change their line of play is how you are going to nickle and dime them in the best possible way and you can do this by forcing them to exile a threat, or your lands. Use this as leverage.
Here is the download link to the Cockatrice Replay. You can place it in your replay folder or open it with Cockatrice to watch.
Thanks, that makes a lot of sense. Like I said, I haven't played any since Gatewatch. I suspect things were much worse when my win cons were manlands or Awaken and Ugin, the Spirit Dragon. I hadn't considered the threat that World Breaker] which seems like a big one. But I hadn't taken into account having more legitimately threatening cards would inhibit an opponent from wrecking havoc on my lands via Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger.
It sounds like the match is not easy but definitely winnable without Infinite Obliteration.
Did you do much testing with Brain in a Jar? It looked to me like it was potentially an extremely powerful card, but I wasn't sure if the awkwardness / clunkiness would let it be playable.
Yeah, definitely watch the replay in Cockatrice if you can. I was behind the whole game and he kept my lands on lock down and my board empty - but it is great at showcasing how tight play can really get you there in this match and what leveraging your outs can accomplish. It was a long, but great game and I think most people would have conceded that game early on, from sheer tilt.
Infinite Obliteration is on my radar, but Pick the Brain can accomplish what it needs to in a similar way, and sometimes more efficiently. But I still would not rule out Obliteration.
I have not tested with Brain in a Jar at all, it is actually an interesting card. Just not sure where I can make room for it atm. 3 counters seems like a total sweet spot.
I think the Infinite Obliteration vs Pick the Brain will probably be more meta dependent, but I think you're right that we don't need the former to win. There's a big difference between trying to hit 8 mana for Ugin, the Spirit Dragon as a 2-of for your primary win con with a ~7 turn clock and Sorin, Grim Nemesis at 6 mana and a maximum of a 4 turn clock. You also have several other relevant cards that can soak Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger where as older Mage-Ring style decks who had normally had 6 permanents. I'd argue also that flip Jace was less of a viable target vs. Eldrazi ramp in that deck too as there are many more spells that can be flashbacked to effectively deal with [insert big dumb Eldrazi] than Mage-Ring had. Jace was good, but Jace was never going to stop Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger and pals in Mage-Ring whereas I can see in post-rotation Esper that he could.
Please post if you end up testing Brain in a Jar. I really like the card. I love being able to cast sorceries at instant speed and casting stuff on the cheap is always nice. I think if it is viable, it will require a different style deck... maybe something with both Day's Undoing and Remorseless Punishment. Maybe with more Narset Transcendent, but I don't know. I don't know if that is really my style of play even if I like the card.
I was wondering how you deal with Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger. I haven't played any since RtZ as my meta was so saturated with that [insert string of curse words] that I ended up running a 2 / 2 split of Infinite Obliteration. Unless I resolved that before they resolved him on like turn 5-7, it was usually a game over as they'd start chaining him and destroy my land base. I understand that having more exile effects will help, but the land destruction was brutal for me. Getting knocked off a color and then getting taken down to 4ish lands was just too much to recover from.
You just have to battle through it. It is not easy, but I have uploaded a Cockatrice replay for you to watch if you want. It is not really a game where Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger was played, but it was a game where my opponent had me under World Breaker recursion. He cast 8 World Breakers on me in the game, and 3 Chandra, Flamecaller while he was ahead. I still won the game, and I was even hampered on the amount of B mana I had at some rather inconvenient times - but in fairness, I also was drawing them at very convenient times.
A few things to note.
The Eldrazi Package
This package does not always consist of 3 or 4 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger. Often times, the real back breaking card is World Breaker. He can drop earlier and start wreaking havoc on your 3 color mana base (as displayed in the replay). Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger is something you can leverage with. He is slow, and if you can cut off the ramp he is even slower. This allows you to build your mana base up and start getting threats out. Your ideal goal is to give them something else to target other than your land. If they have to exile Jace, Unraveler of Secrets, or Sorin, Grim Nemesis instead of 2 lands, you are still very much in the game. In the replay, you will see that I was aggressive with trying to flip Jace, Vryn's Prodigy. If you have the spells to work on a low curve, get aggressive with your planeswalkers. Whether or not the land matters or if your threat matters, is something you need to gauge. If you can get the threat out under the land destruction, then the land destruction hurts a lot less. If you cannot get the threat out under it, you need to focus on stalling it as long as possible. Anything above 6 lands is fluff and you can lose them to triggers without being out of the game. The Eldrazi package does not always run Reality Smasher either. It caught me off guard in the replay, but you can work around it.
Playing for the Long Game
The GR Elzrazi Ramp has a really solid late game, but something to keep in mind is that a good portion of their deck is devoted to getting their late game into play much earlier, so when the late game arrives, they draw a lot of those fuel cards that are not really doing anything. Always play for the long game here, and the longer game you play for, the better your chances of making optimal plays are because you have more live cards to keep a top deck war in your favor.
Diverting Their Plan of Attack
Discard spells are pretty enticing, as they can do a lot of work. You can use these to help you force them to focus on another line of play, but it is not entirely necessary. It will make your game a lot smoother, but consider what you are giving up for those spells. I personally like Pick the Brain over Infinite Obliteration. Both cost 3 mana, and one will hit everything without the need for Delirium, but the effect is not always necessary and the trade off is that if you have Delirium, you can take all their Chandra, Flamecallers as well. I like this because it become applicable in a Control vs Control match. Really though, forcing them to change their line of play is how you are going to nickle and dime them in the best possible way and you can do this by forcing them to exile a threat, or your lands. Use this as leverage.
Here is the download link to the Cockatrice Replay. You can place it in your replay folder or open it with Cockatrice to watch.
Thanks, that makes a lot of sense. Like I said, I haven't played any since Gatewatch. I suspect things were much worse when my win cons were manlands or Awaken and Ugin, the Spirit Dragon. I hadn't considered the threat that World Breaker] which seems like a big one. But I hadn't taken into account having more legitimately threatening cards would inhibit an opponent from wrecking havoc on my lands via Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger.
It sounds like the match is not easy but definitely winnable without Infinite Obliteration.
Did you do much testing with Brain in a Jar? It looked to me like it was potentially an extremely powerful card, but I wasn't sure if the awkwardness / clunkiness would let it be playable.
I don't think everyone else was talking of getting out of blue. Blue does offer it's own edge, I merely stated the BW was doing much better in our test group - and it is a completely different deck, and not because it does not have blue in it. Unfortunately I have been asked not to share the BW list by my group and I have to respect that. But here is my current Esper build for those interested.
Honestly, this deck sees a LOT of cards. If the match is against Control or Midrange, it can come pretty close to decking itself. Some games I end with 5-15 cards left if they are grindy games. A lot of this is because Jace, Unraveler of Secrets and Soring, Grim Nemesis are pretty hard to kill with creature damage, and the deck is good at keeping a board down and under control. Their abilities that work towards ultimate, are drawing you cards and if you have both out for 2-3 turns you are seeing 6-9 cards not including the ones you were seeing while you had just one of them stuck. I think between the walkers and Anticipate, Jace, Vryn's Prodigy looting, and Epiphany at the Drownyard, Esper's drawing capabilities are actually in a great place. Maybe it is because I am a rather tight player, but I have not really changed this list at all, except maybe a few SB cards.
If I were going to make changes, I would likely stick in a single reshuffle option again, but probably more like Learn from the Past. Being low on threats makes sure I have to play tight with the deck and sometimes you do lose both your Sorin and have to use a Jace emblem from either to finish game 1. This means you sometimes get pretty dangerously low on deck size.
The other option is to try and fit in 1-2 more win conditions, but I am not really a fan of Dragons right now and I do not want a 3rd Sorin, Grim Nemesis. Linvala, the Preserver maybe something to slot in, but for those long games she is a pretty brutal creature to have to rely on sometimes.
I was wondering how you deal with Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger. I haven't played any since RtZ as my meta was so saturated with that [insert string of curse words] that I ended up running a 2 / 2 split of Infinite Obliteration. Unless I resolved that before they resolved him on like turn 5-7, it was usually a game over as they'd start chaining him and destroy my land base. I understand that having more exile effects will help, but the land destruction was brutal for me. Getting knocked off a color and then getting taken down to 4ish lands was just too much to recover from.
Let's just be clear about one thing: planeswalkers don't ultimate in competitive magic. Ever.
The ults are just flavour text to give you a mental image of what kind of crazy powers this person has. But those abilities aren't there to be used in serious games.
(obvious exceptions are small instant ultimates like gideon emblem or whatever)
As others have pointed out, this is very inaccurate statement. Walker ulting is highly dependent on the deck. The UWx control decks in the Theros era ulted walkers with very high frequency. When I was running UW control, I'd say I ulted a walker the overwhelming majority of the games I won. The decks were designed in a way that were very conducive to ulting walkers. They had very few win cons and drug the game out over an extended period of time. When your deck's preferable play route is "do nothing," working towards an ult is very powerful. Andrew Cuneo ulted Narset Transcendent several times in his Esper Control deck that did exceptionally well in Day 1 not that long ago.
As a general rule of thumb, we typically ignore walker ults because they are generally speaking not relevant. However, we do need to keep in mind that this is a general rule of thumb not an absolute and that ults are highly relevant in certain deck constructions.
1) sample size. Just because you won a few games doesn't mean anything in the wider context. At all. Your comment in this regard has no significance to the argument at hand.
2) those cards you mentioned probably aren't even decent answers to the deck, or might not be decent in the context of the decks that are running them. We've seen this before; decks running blood moon but without the pressure to back up their disruption just fold to a threat on board.
Example; blue moon decks are awful against tron, even though on paper they look like they have all the answers.
Just jamming a bunch of blood moons into your deck doesn't mean for one second that you'll have a good matchup against an eldrazi deck. It may even make your matchups worse.
People are still working out what the best strategies and hate cards are. This is why we need to give a certain amount of time for adjusting and balancing to naturally happen over time, and as I mentioned, we're already seeing a noticeable drop-off in the prevalence of Eldrazi decks just in a matter of days, so there's every reason to suggest that we wait before jumping to conclusions about bans and brokenness and no reason to get hysterical about it all.
You are missing a huge point about the Eldrazi decks. You can't construct viable hate against Eldrazi.
Go back and look at the Eldrazi deck and try to figure out what the core of the deck is. The core is 5 different cards.
From the Eldrazi decks I've looked at, those are the only cards in common to all Eldrazi decks. There may be some processor decks that are different, but this is the core of the problem decks.
You can't hate this out. It's insufficient information. When people say "the format will adapt to Eldrazi," they might as well be saying "all decks with Snapcaster Mage and Lightning Bolt are the same."
UR Eldrazi runs 33 creatures, 3 Dismember, and 3 Cavern of Lost Souls. Colorless Eldrazi runs ~26 creatures, 7 manlands, 4 Chalice of the Void, 4 Dismember, and 2 Ratchet Bomb. RG Eldrazi runs ~20 creatures, 4 Lightning Bolt, 4 potential board wipes that are recast for free, and a mix of other support and removal cards. Each one of these variants has a different sideboard.
Hate out Eldrazi? Which variant are you hating out? The hate required to effectively deal with each of these decks varies. Counters are absolutely garbage vs. UR Eldrazi. Ensnaring Bridge is meaningless vs. World Breaker. Colorless Eldrazi has versatility with Chalice of the Void and Ratchet Bomb.
To recap, in order to hate Eldrazi, one has to build a deck that can hate a range of decks running:
0-7 manlands
0-3 Cavern of Souls
0-4 Chalice of the Void
20-33 creatures
0-4 board wipes
0-4 World Breaker
And be prepared for a minimum of three different sideboards.
Sure, that seems simple enough... you just have to build a deck that can beat virtually anything.
There is far too much focus on "god" hands. That's not the problem with the deck. "God" hands are rarely the problem with any deck. Implicit in the concept of a "god" hand is rarity.
Furthermore, I don't think anyone is arguing that Eldrazi is strictly "unbeatable." First, I think everyone would conceded that sometimes decks just whiff. Second, I don't think many would disagree that if we knew a 60 card main and 15 card sideboard that a deck can almost always be constructed with an overwhelming advantage. But while Eldrazi is not "unbeatable," it's extremely powerful- arguably more powerful than any deck we've ever seen before in an MTG environment.
First, the deck does whiff, like all decks; however, it is amazingly consistent with good hands. Thought-Knot Seer and Reality Smasher aren't just good cards through turn 2. They're both pretty solid cards throughout an entire game. Casting Eldrazi Skyspawner for U is amazing value. It's a 2/1 flyer and a 1/1 mana generator for one mana. That's bonkers good value. Eldrazi Obligator tapping two lands? 3/1 haste and I steal a creature for a turn? For tapping two lands... Drowner of Hope on turn 4? 7 power over 3 bodies that can also produce mana seems pretty good for a turn 4 play.
This brings us to the second problem in dealing with the deck. The latter three cards mentioned are only in one variant of Eldrazi. There's many different variants of "Eldrazi aggro." What's the actual core of "Edlrazi Aggro?" 20 cards. There are only 20 cards that I've been able to find that all common to all Eldrazi decks. They are 4-ofs Endless One, Reality Smasher, Thought-Knot Seer, Eye of Ugin, Eldrazi Temple. Is anyone going to actually tell me that it is possible to hate out something where you only know a third of the deck? I mean, you might as well be saying "what deck is good against a deck running 4-of Snapcaster Mage and Lightning Bolt." There's simply not enough information.
Forked Bolt has been talked about as a great answer. Sure, have fun running that against the RG Eldrazi deck where the only thing it kills is Matter Shaper... which is 2-for-1ing yourself. Some people have talked about Remand and other counter spells. As if Modern counters weren't weak enough, there's also an Eldrazi variant running 3 Cavern of Souls so... that's definitely not something you want to see.
Eldrazi is it's own messed up archetype. It's a plug-and-play archetype centered around 8 lands that are functionally free Sol Rings. Excluding land hate, there's really not much that can be done to hate out "Eldrazi." The "Eldrazi" decks are not linear aggro. Sure, they frequently play a linear aggro game... with cards that should not be allowed to play a linear aggro game. The UR Eldrazi deck runs 12 or 16 (depending on if you count Endless One or not) CMC 4+ creatures. That's the most linear aggro of the bunch. What linear aggro deck has that many 4 CMC and up creatures? Zero. That's not what linear aggro decks run. The RG variant runs 20 creatures. Matter Reshaper is the only one other than Endless One that can come in under the 3 CMC mark. It's added a 4-of 7 drop to the mix. That is definitively no linear aggro. It probably can't even really play a good linear aggro game under the best of circumstances.
While there's so much focus on a very narrow selection of cards, it's extremely important to note the plug-and-play cards that flesh out the rest of the deck. They can take the variant in very different directions and require different answers. They're also frequently powerful in their own right. Drowner of Hope is a problem card to deal with on turn 4. Eldrazi Obligator adds a very different angle of attack. World Breaker opens up a radically different, very grindy angle of attack... especially if they've boarded in Life from the Loam.
Honestly, I almost hope they don't ban anything from the deck because I don't think we've really scratched the surface on what Eldrazi decks are capable of. If they ban it, we almost certainly never will, and I would be interested to find out what will ultimately be the best Edlrazi deck.
Everyone knows about the explosiveness of the deck. It has potential turn 2 kills. When it doesn't, it has a good chance to kill on turn 3. When it doesn't, it has a good chance of dealing a lot of damage by turn 3. It's very consistent in these early turns, but I think one of the things that doesn't get brought up enough in this discussion is that the deck has legitimate powerful cards on the curve without the busted lands.
Thought-Knot Seer is a great 4 drop. People were talking about it being a fantastic multi-format card during spoiler season. Reality Smasher is a very powerful 5 drop. People were talking about it being a fantastic multi-format card during spoiler season. Matter Shaper is a great 3 drop. People were talking about it being a fantastic multi-format card during spoiler season.
Thought-Knot Seer, Reality Smasher, and Matter Shaper are all frequently 2-for-1s. If we ignore the lands, these cards are still very good. They may not fit in the format, but they are indisputably very powerful when looked at in a vacuum. And this matters greatly.
The obvious problem is that with the lands, Eldrazi decks are functionally self-ramping decks. They play ahead of the curve simply by playing lands instead of having to pay mana and use early turns to ramp. Eldrazi can play out very quickly. I think this is why a lot of people talk about it playing similar to Affinity. However, there is a radical difference between the two decks once you get past the "play it out" phase, but this just masks the true power of the deck. If you stall out a game vs. Affinity, they're left with bad creatures. Who's scared of Onithopter on an empty board turn 4-5? Vault Skirge? Memnite? If you can trade off early with Affinity and survive the initial rush, they have nothing. They have no 2-for-1s. They have no power. They have a bunch of terrible creatures, some largely irrelevant equipment, and some non-threatening man lands. If you wipe Affinity with artifact hate, the deck loses. While the lack of similar Eldrazi hate has been brought up as a defining problem, that misses two huge components of the Eldrazi deck.
First, it is much harder to trade off with Eldrazi. They have 12 potential 2-for-1s that can come down on turns 2-3 very easily. Second, if you do successfully hold them off early, they aren't playing 1/1s and 0/2s that need a board state to function. They are playing cards that are powerful and self-contained. Endless One is going to be a 6/6 minimum in the "later" turns. Reality Smasher is a serious threat no matter what phase of the game we're in. Thought-Know Seer is effective throughout the entire game. Matter Shaper remains solid for the entire game. Eldrazi Mimic is always threatening to become a monster the next turn. Oh, and it also has the man lands. And... it has removal... and it has Chalice of the Void.
While this deck is largely being talked about as a linear aggro deck, this is probably a poor characterization of the deck. It's not a linear aggro deck or, at least, it is not like any linear aggro deck that has been seen before. Linear aggro decks are characterized by subpar cards that work well together. Linear aggro is packed full of cards that, in a vacuum, are objectively weak. This is absolutely not a characteristic of Eldrazi. The deck is not characterized by subpar cards. In a vacuum, which cards of the Eldrazi deck are weak? I'd say Eldrazi Mimic and maybe Endless One. There is only one synergy that exists outside of the obvious land synergy and that is the Eldrazi Mimic. The cards that Eldrazi runs are much more characteristic of a midrange deck. They are independently powerful. That's why this deck is so powerful. This isn't linear aggro. This is a midrange deck that plays at linear aggro speed.
Also, I doubt they are going to ban tron lands or Eye of Ugin. The decks in question would have to dominate to the point of pod to really force WoTCs hand.
That's EXACTLY what people said of twin.
Maybe, but Tron decks sell Return to Zendikar and Oath packs... sooo...
This was brought up in the Reddit thread, but Altar of the Brood is another win condition for the infinite ETB triggers... interesting because it keeps the combo in only two colors, which is helpful for deckbuilding, but those two colors are not very good at drawing cards or preventing your opponent from stopping your combo.
No, but that lets you run the combo in Bant which is much better at drawing cards and preventing combo interruptions. That also lets you run Reflector Mage which is a good flicker target.
Esper Dragons is a great deck. I played it for a long time even though I hated it.
It seems there is some contradiction in here. What do you mean ?
It is a powerful deck, but it is not the style of control I enjoy playing. I played it because it was probably the best control deck pre-rotation or at least during Dragons.
Glad to see Esper Dragons make a comeback, most importantly, it's nice to see a little diversity for a change? I want standard to as dynamic as it was last season, and it looks to picking up maybe?
Esper Dragons is a great deck. I played it for a long time even though I hated it. It does pretty poorly in a meta with Crackling Doom everywhere and GW Megamorph. If you take out those match ups, it's probably favored against everything else.
So that corrolates nicely with the notion that the nonland cards from BFZ are, on the whole, weaker or more expensive than Khans alternatives.
Also Planar Outburst feels pretty bad in hand when looking at an opponent's Awakened creatures.
I don't necessarily disagree with this. I don't think I've really disagreed with this anywhere. Feel free to correct me, I'm not going to go back and reread all my posts.
Khans is a wedge set that has delve in it. Wedge spells are always going to be more powerful because they're supposed to be harder to cast. Delve spells are always going to be potentially more powerful because while they're intentionally over costed, they can be played under costed. The lands in BFZ trivialized the wedge card weakness. They aren't more difficult to cast. They made delve better- if you're fetches hit dual lands, you play a lot more fetches which in turn fuels delve.
The BFZ lands essentially break Khans.
When are you looking at a bunch of awakened lands? The only deck that's doing something like that is some random fringe deck. Awaken is a niche role-filler. It's awesome about once every 10-12 games and decent but probably irrelevant about once every 5-6 games in which case you probably shouldn't awaken. I've yet to see any game with a bunch of awakened lands. In all the games I've played, I've been the only person to awaken a land.
Hard to argue with someone who thinks Scatter the Winds and Ruinous Path are better than their alternatives from Theros. Go look at Reid Dukes article on his control deck. He prefers Clash of Wills over Scatter and calls it vastly inferior to dissolve and doesn't even play ruinous path, which is just a bad card now. You're not even right that the last GP was won by a four color deck. It wasn't it was won by good old three color Abzan, just like the Pro Tour. Boring set, awful sealed format and trash for standard isn't made up by it being a good draft set.
I don't think they're better than their alternatives from Theros. It's actually much harder to argue with someone who takes these statements:
"If we had both Hero's Downfall and Ruinous Path, Downfall is, without question, better in game one."
"I'd take Hero's Downfall right now over Ruinous Path, but that'd be because removal is so weak. If I had them both in format, I'd might still play some number of Ruinous Path in the 75."
And says, "LOL you think Ruinous Path is better!"
Likewise, "I'd take Scatter to the Winds over Dissolve if both were in format" is not an indication of which is the better card. I like Scatter to the Winds over Dissolve in format right now or at least my meta.
Hero's Downfall is great removal. We have terrible removal in format. Ruinous Path and other awaken spells give you additional win cons in a deck that has two. Two win cons is shady sometimes, although if you are going to run only two, Ugin, the Spirit Dragon is a great one to run. Ruinous Path is never a card that you are going to be excited about running 4-of. It's terrible in that respect. It is not so terrible as a 1 or 2-of that doubles as a win con against some decks. Hero's Downfall you can just jam 3-of or 4-of in a deck and be happy. It fills the primary role of Ruinous Path significantly better.
Clash of Wills is a very solid role player. Historically, XU counter spells have been great. Power Sink was, in its day, one of, if not the, most dominating counter spells ever. Clash of Wills is no pre-6th edition version Power Sink to be sure. It's probably the worst XU counter ever, but with what Wizards gives us to work with on counters these days, it's a good early game counter and Mage-Ring Network does help it if you have to have it late. You'd still be playing the same break down of Clash of Wills and Dissolve if the later was in format instead of Scatter to the Winds.
The last deck I saw Duke play had Ruinous Path. He also used it to win a game. I don't recall him saying Scatter to the Winds was "vastly inferior." I'm pretty sure he said it was "much worse" (which is better than "vastly inferior") and I'll always defer to Reid Duke in MTG.
I stand corrected on the GP. I thought it was Blue Abzan not straight Abzan. It is irrelevant. My point about the mana base regarding Abzan is indisputable.
Serious question, have you ever played a real control deck in the previous 2-3 standards? Because it doesn't sound like it. You are talking straight out of your ass.
Esper Dragons was NOT a tapout style control deck; that style is objectively worse than the actual good versions of that deck.
I played nothing but Esper Dragons from Dragons to rotation. Before that I played, UB or UW control depending on whether I wanted to play a real deck or just wanted to counter stuff as it is my favorite thing to do in Magic. Before that, I played UW, Esper, or a BUG brew in throughout Theros block. I could keep going, but I'm pretty sure that covers the last 2-3 previous standards. I have never played anything but a control deck or a random fun deck (ramp Cyclonic Rift / Reap Intellect) that I expect to lose every match with but get one or two game wins that make it worth it. If control is not viable, I play it anyway or wait until the next set or rotation.
It's absolutely tap-out control. It's the very definition of a tap-out control deck. How is it not tap-out control? Because it has instants? Jushi Blue had instants and more permission, and it is the very definition of tap-out control. If you are playing a deck that has the primary goal of playing a playing a 5 drop threat on turn 5 and winning before turn 10, there is a 0% chance you are playing draw-go control. You are winning the game before a draw-go deck is normally thinking about resolving a win con. Sure, Esper Dragons has a decent draw-go game when it has to, but tap-out control and draw-go are most clearly delineated by the nature of the win cons. Broadly, tap-out control inevitably has more win cons and you play them on curve; draw-go has fewer win cons and does not play them on curve (typically, some exceptions do exist of course). The other differences between the two are, generally, consequences of this difference.
Dissolve is one of the best 3 mana counterspells that's ever been in Standard. You need to be able to hold up countermagic along with removal spells that you can play at the end of your opponent's turn, so that you don't end up wasting your answers on the wrong threats.
I do agree that Dissolve is definitely at the top of the list in terms of 3 mana counters in standard. The latter part of what you've said is broadly true but not universally true.
Trying to awaken a Scatter to the Winds is just inviting your counterspell to get hit by Dispel. You need to be able to represent multiple counters in your hand. Not only that, but you can only even attempt it late in the game, whereas the scry is beneficial at any stage of the game. Esper doesn't need awaken spells; they have Ugins and Ojutais that are much better game closers.
It runs 2-of Ugin, the Spirit Dragon and typically a 1-of Dragonlord Ojutai in the board unless you're playing Esper Dragons which is a terrible meta pick. It's light on win-cons as is expected from draw-go. It's great to be able to fit in additional win-cons that don't take up other slots. It's why Planar Outburst is clearly better than other sweepers while not being much better.
Most decks aren't running Dispell. Scatter to the Winds for awaken is extremely niche. The only reason I like it better is that in current control, there's a lot of card advantage power at the present. If I have Dig through Time or Anticipate in hand or in GY with flipped Jace, scry is still nice, but it's not that nice.
Ruinous Path suffers similar issues. You don't want to spend your turn 3 doing nothing and then kill their 3 drop with it, while they then drop a bigger threat on turn 4. Being able to use instant speed removal alongside counterspells is critical to maintaining enough tempo to get you into the late game. I would rather play Murder than Ruinous Path.
Sometimes, you need to end the game or a win con. It's nice then. It's niche.
That article is so-so at best. There's a few OK points and some real head scratchers.
First, despite that author's assertion, Planar Outburstis clearly better than End Hostilities. Destroying attached permanents hasn't been relevant since... a while. I guess maybe you could argue it was relevant in the very short time frame you occasionally had Stormbreath Dragon being ridden by Boon Satyr but the game was pretty much over at that point. Hitting creature lands is essentially worthless. You aren't going to hit a non-awakened land. We have all 9 planets of the solar system in perfect alignment more frequently than End Hostilities being better than Planar Outburst. That's just a total whiff in the article. Languish is much more conditional and not a great card in the format right now. This format is slow enough that the difference between a 4 CMC and 5 CMC sweeper is not that big. Languish is an imperfect sweeper, particularly in a world with Gideon, Ally of Zendikar emblems and Abzan Charms.
Second, you and the author continue to bring up the differences in power level between wedge cards and non-wedge cards. Yes, wedge cards have more power. They're wedge cards. They're supposed to be much harder to cast and supposed to be much harder on the mana base. You have both talked about Mantis Rider as a very powerful card. Sure, it's a great card! It is "objectively powerful." It saw limited play before BFZ. That article goes on to talk about how great Butcher of the Horde is also. If we're talking about powerful meaning playable in a format which both of you seem to be indicating, that's a straight up trash card. Otherwise, we can recognize it's a good card that's just out of sync or out of place in the format. Drana, Liberator of Malakir is a good example of this. She's powerful, possibly more powerful of a card than Mantis Rider. However, she's straight up countered by Mantis Rider. In a format with Mantis Rider present in numbers, she's never going to be viable.
Third, the author makes statements like this "In Standard, Kor Firewalker would make Touch of the Void playable." Ummm... no... no, it does not make Touch of the Void playable at all. If Kor Firewalker was in standard and someone played it, we'd all look at them like they were crazy which they would be because they played Kor Firewalker in this format.
Fourth, the author goes on with this nonsense:
First, the number of basics that are played can skew the numbers. Second, and most importantly, the Rare land cycle from the fall set always sees play no matter how good or bad it may be. The land cycle may not be the greatest of all time, but it will be the best (or second best) in Standard and the foundation for most tournament decks.
He also calls the BFZ lands "slowlands." BFZ lands are not slowlands. They are not even close to slowlands. They blow slowlands out of the water. It's clear he does not understand the impact of the BFZ lands.
Fifth, This is the best section of the entire article, but it completely misses the mark.
If you look at the mechanics from other large fall sets, it was their synergy with other sets in Standard that helped them see play. Gray Merchant of Asphodel and Master of Waves were immediately playable because they synergized well with Return to Ravinca block cards like Nightveil Specter and Underworld Connections. Or take for example Khans of Tarkir. Raid cares about attacking (happens every game), Delve cards about the graveyard (where cards go when they die), Prowess just cares about spells, Ferocious only cares about powerful creatures, and Outlast only cares about +1/+1 counters.
That's what the battle lands did. Did Crackling Doom see play? No. Did Mantis Rider see play? Not much. Did Kolaghan's Command see play? No. Did Become Immense see play? No. Did Temur Battlerage see play? No. Did Ojutai's Command see play? No. Did Butcher of the Horde see play (not that it really does anymore, but the author uses it as an example)? No. Did Tasigur, the Golden Fang see play? Not much and almost never in the main. Did Utter End see play? Not in six months prior to BFZ and before then only in a handful of Abzan decks and pretty much only as a 1-of or 1-1 split because the deck didn't really want it. All these cards that see significantly more play directly or indirectly due to the BFZ lands.
Hell, we can go even further! How good was Jace, Vyrn's Prodigy before BFZ? He saw some play sure. No one was talking about him being the best card in standard. Ban worth? Laughable. No, people argued he was the worst flip walker. Now, we can have legitimate discussions about whether he should or should not be banned. That's what BFZ did for Jace, Vyrn's Prodigy. It took a more or less fringe card and got people talking about banning him. The battle lands make him easier to cast as turn two untapped mana source and blue was no guarantee. The battle lands enable more fetches which makes him easier to flip. The battle lands enable better spells for his -3. Control decks? We had control decks? I don't mean Esper Dragon style control AKA "can I live to turn 5 and can you beat Dragonlord Ojutai." Now, we have a real control deck that is actually competitive. We have a three color, permission based control deck. If that doesn't make you say WTF is going on, I have no idea what will. Current control decks iterations are only possible due to battle lands. It's kind of amazing since we haven't had a real control deck that's actually been good since Sphinx's Revelation.deck. And no, the Dragonlord Ojutai.deck game plan of windmill slamming a 5 CMC creature and racing doesn't really count as a real control deck.
Further, can we go further? Could Abzan run four Wardens of the First Tree? No. Could Abzan consistently turn 4 Siege Rhino? Sort of, kind of if it time walked itself prior with tapped lands and even then misses weren't that uncommon. Could Abzan consistently play Wingmate Roc when it hit 5 mana? No.
The Khans block is a wedge set. You need to really sit there and ponder that until it sinks in. Khans has delve in it and fetches. Again, you need to fully understand the implications here. BFZ introduces fetchable, untapped (frequently) dual lands. While detail's point about filter lands is well taken (and he should have included Rhox War Monk in the cards he listed as I think it was also a 4-of), I think (and suspect most players would agree) this is the best mana base we've ever seen in a standard environment even if it doesn't support triple and quad color "off color" spells. It is fast and it is smooth. I'm not saying the full impact was something we should have all anticipated during spoiler season. However, it was obvious to anyone paying attention that BFZ was going to make Khans way better. It probably exceeded everyone's expectations in this regard. Go break down an older Abzan deck and compare it to a new one. The difference is night and day. Wedge cards inevitably have more power. They're supposed to be harder to cast. We had fetches which were so-so. Fetches, in a vacuum, aren't bad. They're good role fillers for getting untapped lands in early turns. It made casting the wedge cards easier on turn for sure. They fuel delve. You couldn't run too many of the fetches because fetch lands are not dual lands and there is tension between having to run enough basics for your fetches and dual lands to hit your colors. If you're in 3-colors, you aren't sitting there thinking "Whew, thank god I have these fetch lands to make this work." Unless, they fetch duals and frequently untapped duals. When your fetches fetch dual lands, that tension ceases to exist especially when the duals can enter untapped.
If your argument is that no BFZ burn spell is made powerful enough for constructed play, you're not exacly disagreeing with the notion that BFZ's cards are powered down compared to Theros.
Atarka red's primary answer to Awaken 4 is just killng you before you get the mana to cast it - something that the Scatter and Ruinous Path are notably worse at defending against than their earlier iterations.
There's no comparable burn card in the Khans block. The closest is Draconic Roar. Clearly, this means that Theros has higher power level and not that some sets and blocks do not support certain spell types... *eyeroll*
If we had both Hero's Downfall and Ruinous Path, Downfall is, without question, better in game one. Game two right now with the other cards, I don't think it's necessarily better. I don't think Dissolve is that much better (if at all) than Scatter to the Winds in game one. I don't think either would stay in after board.
While I agree with the sentiment that the issue is the Khans cards are being enabled by the BFZ mana making them much more powerful than they should be, I think it is debatable that this is the best mana we have ever had in standard.
While the Lorwyn/Shards mana was slower, it was also significantly stronger in terms of ability to cast spells. In BFZ standard you could never hope to put Cryptic Command, Wrath of God, Cloudthresher, and Cruel Ultimatum in the same deck.
I can go with that. There are more qualitative aspects to the mana base than I was allowing.
Even if the mana had just been good, instead of fantastic, we still probably would have just seen iterations of Khans wedges, since basically nothing in BFZ objectively as good. The draft fodder archetypes have no foothold in standard because all the cards individually cost too much mana or are significantly less impactful than stuff like Siege Rhino and Mantis Rider. Even the most robust "new" Aristocrats deck is completely shut down by Anafenza.
BFZ doesn't bring good new creatures, it doesn't bring good new spells, it doesn't bring good new synergies, it brings 1 great PW, a couple of downgraded reprints, a few actual reprints,and a bunch of cards that *might* be relevant when all the other good cards rotate out. "In the land of the blind, the man with one eye is king... But only after you kick out all the two-eyes."
This mana base is literally squeezing all the value out of Khans and then some. This past GP top 8, not a single deck played fewer than 8 fetches. Two decks played more fetches than mana producing lands. Six of the decks played 12 fetches. You can pretend that this mana base is not having a massive impact on the format and that we'd end up with just iterations of Khans wedges, but that's a delusional fantasy. You'd probably end up with some much worse version of Abzan being carried on the back of Siege Rhino. You might see something in Jeskai, but that Jeskai mana base was just horrific. You don't see Esper. Mantis Rider? Who's that? He's a non-player in that format. I'm sure, the card is "objectively good," but it didn't see much play last go round. You don't even see Abzan running Sandsteppe Citadel anymore. This standard is radically different without the current mana base.
I don't even know why you even bring up cards being lower impact than Siege Rhino or Mantis Rider. That's the whole point. Siege Rhino is a 4/5 trample, drain 3 life for four mana. He's only got all that stuff because he takes three colors to cast. Mantis Rider is a 3/3 with three key words for three mana. You know what doesn't get you a 3/3 flier with three key words for three mana? Three mana cards that don't require three colors. You know how many wedge cards there are in BFZ? Zero. If you expect a non-wedge card to have the same power as a non-wedge card at the same CMC (draft cards aside obviously), you are living in a dream world. If you expect every set to be a wedge set, you shouldn't because that's never going to happen.
Bottom line, Khans cards are unbelievable right now because the difference between casting a wedge card and a single color card is insignificant and Khans had delve which is even better now with the number of fetches decks run.
It's not just that the gold cards are pushing out reasonably powerful spells. It's that many of the typical basic effects in BFZ are far worse than the Theros version:
If the Theros iteration of these cards were still in standard, they would be seeing plenty of play right now.
If you are going to make comparisons between cards, you should at least have them make sense...
Touch of the Void is not a new "iteration" of Lightning Strike. It's draft oriented removal. If you want a card to compare it to, you should use Bolt of Keranos which is also a draft removal spell. It's harder to cast and has scry. Touch of the Void has exile to help make processor decks work in draft. Lightning Strike is designed for constructed play. There's no comparison to be made here.
The awaken cards you've mentioned are more specific. They are more niche but sometimes much more powerful. Atarka Red has been pushed around a lot, but they have a tremendous amount of problems with awaken lands particularly when you awaken Shambling Vents. They have no main deck answers to awaken 4. They have only Roast as an answer in the board. Atarka Red is also not boarding in removal against a deck that has awaken cards. When you need to get low to the ground, awaken is a powerful mechanic. It has the ability to double up as a win con as the game goes on. Awaken is much worse the first game one especially with meta considerations. The decks it's better against aren't as prevalent and removal isn't wholesale boarded out with Jace, Vryn's Prodigy.
I think the Infinite Obliteration vs Pick the Brain will probably be more meta dependent, but I think you're right that we don't need the former to win. There's a big difference between trying to hit 8 mana for Ugin, the Spirit Dragon as a 2-of for your primary win con with a ~7 turn clock and Sorin, Grim Nemesis at 6 mana and a maximum of a 4 turn clock. You also have several other relevant cards that can soak Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger where as older Mage-Ring style decks who had normally had 6 permanents. I'd argue also that flip Jace was less of a viable target vs. Eldrazi ramp in that deck too as there are many more spells that can be flashbacked to effectively deal with [insert big dumb Eldrazi] than Mage-Ring had. Jace was good, but Jace was never going to stop Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger and pals in Mage-Ring whereas I can see in post-rotation Esper that he could.
Please post if you end up testing Brain in a Jar. I really like the card. I love being able to cast sorceries at instant speed and casting stuff on the cheap is always nice. I think if it is viable, it will require a different style deck... maybe something with both Day's Undoing and Remorseless Punishment. Maybe with more Narset Transcendent, but I don't know. I don't know if that is really my style of play even if I like the card.
Thanks, that makes a lot of sense. Like I said, I haven't played any since Gatewatch. I suspect things were much worse when my win cons were manlands or Awaken and Ugin, the Spirit Dragon. I hadn't considered the threat that World Breaker] which seems like a big one. But I hadn't taken into account having more legitimately threatening cards would inhibit an opponent from wrecking havoc on my lands via Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger.
It sounds like the match is not easy but definitely winnable without Infinite Obliteration.
Did you do much testing with Brain in a Jar? It looked to me like it was potentially an extremely powerful card, but I wasn't sure if the awkwardness / clunkiness would let it be playable.
I was wondering how you deal with Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger. I haven't played any since RtZ as my meta was so saturated with that [insert string of curse words] that I ended up running a 2 / 2 split of Infinite Obliteration. Unless I resolved that before they resolved him on like turn 5-7, it was usually a game over as they'd start chaining him and destroy my land base. I understand that having more exile effects will help, but the land destruction was brutal for me. Getting knocked off a color and then getting taken down to 4ish lands was just too much to recover from.
As others have pointed out, this is very inaccurate statement. Walker ulting is highly dependent on the deck. The UWx control decks in the Theros era ulted walkers with very high frequency. When I was running UW control, I'd say I ulted a walker the overwhelming majority of the games I won. The decks were designed in a way that were very conducive to ulting walkers. They had very few win cons and drug the game out over an extended period of time. When your deck's preferable play route is "do nothing," working towards an ult is very powerful. Andrew Cuneo ulted Narset Transcendent several times in his Esper Control deck that did exceptionally well in Day 1 not that long ago.
As a general rule of thumb, we typically ignore walker ults because they are generally speaking not relevant. However, we do need to keep in mind that this is a general rule of thumb not an absolute and that ults are highly relevant in certain deck constructions.
You are missing a huge point about the Eldrazi decks. You can't construct viable hate against Eldrazi.
Go back and look at the Eldrazi deck and try to figure out what the core of the deck is. The core is 5 different cards.
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Eye of Ugin
4 Endless One
4 Reality Smasher
4 Thought-Knot Seer
From the Eldrazi decks I've looked at, those are the only cards in common to all Eldrazi decks. There may be some processor decks that are different, but this is the core of the problem decks.
You can't hate this out. It's insufficient information. When people say "the format will adapt to Eldrazi," they might as well be saying "all decks with Snapcaster Mage and Lightning Bolt are the same."
UR Eldrazi runs 33 creatures, 3 Dismember, and 3 Cavern of Lost Souls. Colorless Eldrazi runs ~26 creatures, 7 manlands, 4 Chalice of the Void, 4 Dismember, and 2 Ratchet Bomb. RG Eldrazi runs ~20 creatures, 4 Lightning Bolt, 4 potential board wipes that are recast for free, and a mix of other support and removal cards. Each one of these variants has a different sideboard.
Hate out Eldrazi? Which variant are you hating out? The hate required to effectively deal with each of these decks varies. Counters are absolutely garbage vs. UR Eldrazi. Ensnaring Bridge is meaningless vs. World Breaker. Colorless Eldrazi has versatility with Chalice of the Void and Ratchet Bomb.
To recap, in order to hate Eldrazi, one has to build a deck that can hate a range of decks running:
0-7 manlands
0-3 Cavern of Souls
0-4 Chalice of the Void
20-33 creatures
0-4 board wipes
0-4 World Breaker
And be prepared for a minimum of three different sideboards.
Sure, that seems simple enough... you just have to build a deck that can beat virtually anything.
Furthermore, I don't think anyone is arguing that Eldrazi is strictly "unbeatable." First, I think everyone would conceded that sometimes decks just whiff. Second, I don't think many would disagree that if we knew a 60 card main and 15 card sideboard that a deck can almost always be constructed with an overwhelming advantage. But while Eldrazi is not "unbeatable," it's extremely powerful- arguably more powerful than any deck we've ever seen before in an MTG environment.
First, the deck does whiff, like all decks; however, it is amazingly consistent with good hands. Thought-Knot Seer and Reality Smasher aren't just good cards through turn 2. They're both pretty solid cards throughout an entire game. Casting Eldrazi Skyspawner for U is amazing value. It's a 2/1 flyer and a 1/1 mana generator for one mana. That's bonkers good value. Eldrazi Obligator tapping two lands? 3/1 haste and I steal a creature for a turn? For tapping two lands... Drowner of Hope on turn 4? 7 power over 3 bodies that can also produce mana seems pretty good for a turn 4 play.
This brings us to the second problem in dealing with the deck. The latter three cards mentioned are only in one variant of Eldrazi. There's many different variants of "Eldrazi aggro." What's the actual core of "Edlrazi Aggro?" 20 cards. There are only 20 cards that I've been able to find that all common to all Eldrazi decks. They are 4-ofs Endless One, Reality Smasher, Thought-Knot Seer, Eye of Ugin, Eldrazi Temple. Is anyone going to actually tell me that it is possible to hate out something where you only know a third of the deck? I mean, you might as well be saying "what deck is good against a deck running 4-of Snapcaster Mage and Lightning Bolt." There's simply not enough information.
Forked Bolt has been talked about as a great answer. Sure, have fun running that against the RG Eldrazi deck where the only thing it kills is Matter Shaper... which is 2-for-1ing yourself. Some people have talked about Remand and other counter spells. As if Modern counters weren't weak enough, there's also an Eldrazi variant running 3 Cavern of Souls so... that's definitely not something you want to see.
Eldrazi is it's own messed up archetype. It's a plug-and-play archetype centered around 8 lands that are functionally free Sol Rings. Excluding land hate, there's really not much that can be done to hate out "Eldrazi." The "Eldrazi" decks are not linear aggro. Sure, they frequently play a linear aggro game... with cards that should not be allowed to play a linear aggro game. The UR Eldrazi deck runs 12 or 16 (depending on if you count Endless One or not) CMC 4+ creatures. That's the most linear aggro of the bunch. What linear aggro deck has that many 4 CMC and up creatures? Zero. That's not what linear aggro decks run. The RG variant runs 20 creatures. Matter Reshaper is the only one other than Endless One that can come in under the 3 CMC mark. It's added a 4-of 7 drop to the mix. That is definitively no linear aggro. It probably can't even really play a good linear aggro game under the best of circumstances.
While there's so much focus on a very narrow selection of cards, it's extremely important to note the plug-and-play cards that flesh out the rest of the deck. They can take the variant in very different directions and require different answers. They're also frequently powerful in their own right. Drowner of Hope is a problem card to deal with on turn 4. Eldrazi Obligator adds a very different angle of attack. World Breaker opens up a radically different, very grindy angle of attack... especially if they've boarded in Life from the Loam.
Honestly, I almost hope they don't ban anything from the deck because I don't think we've really scratched the surface on what Eldrazi decks are capable of. If they ban it, we almost certainly never will, and I would be interested to find out what will ultimately be the best Edlrazi deck.
Thought-Knot Seer is a great 4 drop. People were talking about it being a fantastic multi-format card during spoiler season. Reality Smasher is a very powerful 5 drop. People were talking about it being a fantastic multi-format card during spoiler season. Matter Shaper is a great 3 drop. People were talking about it being a fantastic multi-format card during spoiler season.
Thought-Knot Seer, Reality Smasher, and Matter Shaper are all frequently 2-for-1s. If we ignore the lands, these cards are still very good. They may not fit in the format, but they are indisputably very powerful when looked at in a vacuum. And this matters greatly.
The obvious problem is that with the lands, Eldrazi decks are functionally self-ramping decks. They play ahead of the curve simply by playing lands instead of having to pay mana and use early turns to ramp. Eldrazi can play out very quickly. I think this is why a lot of people talk about it playing similar to Affinity. However, there is a radical difference between the two decks once you get past the "play it out" phase, but this just masks the true power of the deck. If you stall out a game vs. Affinity, they're left with bad creatures. Who's scared of Onithopter on an empty board turn 4-5? Vault Skirge? Memnite? If you can trade off early with Affinity and survive the initial rush, they have nothing. They have no 2-for-1s. They have no power. They have a bunch of terrible creatures, some largely irrelevant equipment, and some non-threatening man lands. If you wipe Affinity with artifact hate, the deck loses. While the lack of similar Eldrazi hate has been brought up as a defining problem, that misses two huge components of the Eldrazi deck.
First, it is much harder to trade off with Eldrazi. They have 12 potential 2-for-1s that can come down on turns 2-3 very easily. Second, if you do successfully hold them off early, they aren't playing 1/1s and 0/2s that need a board state to function. They are playing cards that are powerful and self-contained. Endless One is going to be a 6/6 minimum in the "later" turns. Reality Smasher is a serious threat no matter what phase of the game we're in. Thought-Know Seer is effective throughout the entire game. Matter Shaper remains solid for the entire game. Eldrazi Mimic is always threatening to become a monster the next turn. Oh, and it also has the man lands. And... it has removal... and it has Chalice of the Void.
While this deck is largely being talked about as a linear aggro deck, this is probably a poor characterization of the deck. It's not a linear aggro deck or, at least, it is not like any linear aggro deck that has been seen before. Linear aggro decks are characterized by subpar cards that work well together. Linear aggro is packed full of cards that, in a vacuum, are objectively weak. This is absolutely not a characteristic of Eldrazi. The deck is not characterized by subpar cards. In a vacuum, which cards of the Eldrazi deck are weak? I'd say Eldrazi Mimic and maybe Endless One. There is only one synergy that exists outside of the obvious land synergy and that is the Eldrazi Mimic. The cards that Eldrazi runs are much more characteristic of a midrange deck. They are independently powerful. That's why this deck is so powerful. This isn't linear aggro. This is a midrange deck that plays at linear aggro speed.
Maybe, but Tron decks sell Return to Zendikar and Oath packs... sooo...
No, but that lets you run the combo in Bant which is much better at drawing cards and preventing combo interruptions. That also lets you run Reflector Mage which is a good flicker target.
It is a powerful deck, but it is not the style of control I enjoy playing. I played it because it was probably the best control deck pre-rotation or at least during Dragons.
Esper Dragons is a great deck. I played it for a long time even though I hated it. It does pretty poorly in a meta with Crackling Doom everywhere and GW Megamorph. If you take out those match ups, it's probably favored against everything else.
I don't necessarily disagree with this. I don't think I've really disagreed with this anywhere. Feel free to correct me, I'm not going to go back and reread all my posts.
Khans is a wedge set that has delve in it. Wedge spells are always going to be more powerful because they're supposed to be harder to cast. Delve spells are always going to be potentially more powerful because while they're intentionally over costed, they can be played under costed. The lands in BFZ trivialized the wedge card weakness. They aren't more difficult to cast. They made delve better- if you're fetches hit dual lands, you play a lot more fetches which in turn fuels delve.
The BFZ lands essentially break Khans.
When are you looking at a bunch of awakened lands? The only deck that's doing something like that is some random fringe deck. Awaken is a niche role-filler. It's awesome about once every 10-12 games and decent but probably irrelevant about once every 5-6 games in which case you probably shouldn't awaken. I've yet to see any game with a bunch of awakened lands. In all the games I've played, I've been the only person to awaken a land.
I don't think they're better than their alternatives from Theros. It's actually much harder to argue with someone who takes these statements:
"If we had both Hero's Downfall and Ruinous Path, Downfall is, without question, better in game one."
"I'd take Hero's Downfall right now over Ruinous Path, but that'd be because removal is so weak. If I had them both in format, I'd might still play some number of Ruinous Path in the 75."
And says, "LOL you think Ruinous Path is better!"
Likewise, "I'd take Scatter to the Winds over Dissolve if both were in format" is not an indication of which is the better card. I like Scatter to the Winds over Dissolve in format right now or at least my meta.
Hero's Downfall is great removal. We have terrible removal in format. Ruinous Path and other awaken spells give you additional win cons in a deck that has two. Two win cons is shady sometimes, although if you are going to run only two, Ugin, the Spirit Dragon is a great one to run. Ruinous Path is never a card that you are going to be excited about running 4-of. It's terrible in that respect. It is not so terrible as a 1 or 2-of that doubles as a win con against some decks. Hero's Downfall you can just jam 3-of or 4-of in a deck and be happy. It fills the primary role of Ruinous Path significantly better.
Clash of Wills is a very solid role player. Historically, XU counter spells have been great. Power Sink was, in its day, one of, if not the, most dominating counter spells ever. Clash of Wills is no pre-6th edition version Power Sink to be sure. It's probably the worst XU counter ever, but with what Wizards gives us to work with on counters these days, it's a good early game counter and Mage-Ring Network does help it if you have to have it late. You'd still be playing the same break down of Clash of Wills and Dissolve if the later was in format instead of Scatter to the Winds.
The last deck I saw Duke play had Ruinous Path. He also used it to win a game. I don't recall him saying Scatter to the Winds was "vastly inferior." I'm pretty sure he said it was "much worse" (which is better than "vastly inferior") and I'll always defer to Reid Duke in MTG.
I stand corrected on the GP. I thought it was Blue Abzan not straight Abzan. It is irrelevant. My point about the mana base regarding Abzan is indisputable.
I played nothing but Esper Dragons from Dragons to rotation. Before that I played, UB or UW control depending on whether I wanted to play a real deck or just wanted to counter stuff as it is my favorite thing to do in Magic. Before that, I played UW, Esper, or a BUG brew in throughout Theros block. I could keep going, but I'm pretty sure that covers the last 2-3 previous standards. I have never played anything but a control deck or a random fun deck (ramp Cyclonic Rift / Reap Intellect) that I expect to lose every match with but get one or two game wins that make it worth it. If control is not viable, I play it anyway or wait until the next set or rotation.
It's absolutely tap-out control. It's the very definition of a tap-out control deck. How is it not tap-out control? Because it has instants? Jushi Blue had instants and more permission, and it is the very definition of tap-out control. If you are playing a deck that has the primary goal of playing a playing a 5 drop threat on turn 5 and winning before turn 10, there is a 0% chance you are playing draw-go control. You are winning the game before a draw-go deck is normally thinking about resolving a win con. Sure, Esper Dragons has a decent draw-go game when it has to, but tap-out control and draw-go are most clearly delineated by the nature of the win cons. Broadly, tap-out control inevitably has more win cons and you play them on curve; draw-go has fewer win cons and does not play them on curve (typically, some exceptions do exist of course). The other differences between the two are, generally, consequences of this difference.
I do agree that Dissolve is definitely at the top of the list in terms of 3 mana counters in standard. The latter part of what you've said is broadly true but not universally true.
It runs 2-of Ugin, the Spirit Dragon and typically a 1-of Dragonlord Ojutai in the board unless you're playing Esper Dragons which is a terrible meta pick. It's light on win-cons as is expected from draw-go. It's great to be able to fit in additional win-cons that don't take up other slots. It's why Planar Outburst is clearly better than other sweepers while not being much better.
Most decks aren't running Dispell. Scatter to the Winds for awaken is extremely niche. The only reason I like it better is that in current control, there's a lot of card advantage power at the present. If I have Dig through Time or Anticipate in hand or in GY with flipped Jace, scry is still nice, but it's not that nice.
Sometimes, you need to end the game or a win con. It's nice then. It's niche.
You continue to argue irrelevant nonsense.
That article is so-so at best. There's a few OK points and some real head scratchers.
First, despite that author's assertion, Planar Outburst is clearly better than End Hostilities. Destroying attached permanents hasn't been relevant since... a while. I guess maybe you could argue it was relevant in the very short time frame you occasionally had Stormbreath Dragon being ridden by Boon Satyr but the game was pretty much over at that point. Hitting creature lands is essentially worthless. You aren't going to hit a non-awakened land. We have all 9 planets of the solar system in perfect alignment more frequently than End Hostilities being better than Planar Outburst. That's just a total whiff in the article. Languish is much more conditional and not a great card in the format right now. This format is slow enough that the difference between a 4 CMC and 5 CMC sweeper is not that big. Languish is an imperfect sweeper, particularly in a world with Gideon, Ally of Zendikar emblems and Abzan Charms.
Second, you and the author continue to bring up the differences in power level between wedge cards and non-wedge cards. Yes, wedge cards have more power. They're wedge cards. They're supposed to be much harder to cast and supposed to be much harder on the mana base. You have both talked about Mantis Rider as a very powerful card. Sure, it's a great card! It is "objectively powerful." It saw limited play before BFZ. That article goes on to talk about how great Butcher of the Horde is also. If we're talking about powerful meaning playable in a format which both of you seem to be indicating, that's a straight up trash card. Otherwise, we can recognize it's a good card that's just out of sync or out of place in the format. Drana, Liberator of Malakir is a good example of this. She's powerful, possibly more powerful of a card than Mantis Rider. However, she's straight up countered by Mantis Rider. In a format with Mantis Rider present in numbers, she's never going to be viable.
Third, the author makes statements like this "In Standard, Kor Firewalker would make Touch of the Void playable." Ummm... no... no, it does not make Touch of the Void playable at all. If Kor Firewalker was in standard and someone played it, we'd all look at them like they were crazy which they would be because they played Kor Firewalker in this format.
Fourth, the author goes on with this nonsense:
He also calls the BFZ lands "slowlands." BFZ lands are not slowlands. They are not even close to slowlands. They blow slowlands out of the water. It's clear he does not understand the impact of the BFZ lands.
Fifth, This is the best section of the entire article, but it completely misses the mark.
That's what the battle lands did. Did Crackling Doom see play? No. Did Mantis Rider see play? Not much. Did Kolaghan's Command see play? No. Did Become Immense see play? No. Did Temur Battlerage see play? No. Did Ojutai's Command see play? No. Did Butcher of the Horde see play (not that it really does anymore, but the author uses it as an example)? No. Did Tasigur, the Golden Fang see play? Not much and almost never in the main. Did Utter End see play? Not in six months prior to BFZ and before then only in a handful of Abzan decks and pretty much only as a 1-of or 1-1 split because the deck didn't really want it. All these cards that see significantly more play directly or indirectly due to the BFZ lands.
Hell, we can go even further! How good was Jace, Vyrn's Prodigy before BFZ? He saw some play sure. No one was talking about him being the best card in standard. Ban worth? Laughable. No, people argued he was the worst flip walker. Now, we can have legitimate discussions about whether he should or should not be banned. That's what BFZ did for Jace, Vyrn's Prodigy. It took a more or less fringe card and got people talking about banning him. The battle lands make him easier to cast as turn two untapped mana source and blue was no guarantee. The battle lands enable more fetches which makes him easier to flip. The battle lands enable better spells for his -3. Control decks? We had control decks? I don't mean Esper Dragon style control AKA "can I live to turn 5 and can you beat Dragonlord Ojutai." Now, we have a real control deck that is actually competitive. We have a three color, permission based control deck. If that doesn't make you say WTF is going on, I have no idea what will. Current control decks iterations are only possible due to battle lands. It's kind of amazing since we haven't had a real control deck that's actually been good since Sphinx's Revelation.deck. And no, the Dragonlord Ojutai.deck game plan of windmill slamming a 5 CMC creature and racing doesn't really count as a real control deck.
Further, can we go further? Could Abzan run four Wardens of the First Tree? No. Could Abzan consistently turn 4 Siege Rhino? Sort of, kind of if it time walked itself prior with tapped lands and even then misses weren't that uncommon. Could Abzan consistently play Wingmate Roc when it hit 5 mana? No.
The Khans block is a wedge set. You need to really sit there and ponder that until it sinks in. Khans has delve in it and fetches. Again, you need to fully understand the implications here. BFZ introduces fetchable, untapped (frequently) dual lands. While detail's point about filter lands is well taken (and he should have included Rhox War Monk in the cards he listed as I think it was also a 4-of), I think (and suspect most players would agree) this is the best mana base we've ever seen in a standard environment even if it doesn't support triple and quad color "off color" spells. It is fast and it is smooth. I'm not saying the full impact was something we should have all anticipated during spoiler season. However, it was obvious to anyone paying attention that BFZ was going to make Khans way better. It probably exceeded everyone's expectations in this regard. Go break down an older Abzan deck and compare it to a new one. The difference is night and day. Wedge cards inevitably have more power. They're supposed to be harder to cast. We had fetches which were so-so. Fetches, in a vacuum, aren't bad. They're good role fillers for getting untapped lands in early turns. It made casting the wedge cards easier on turn for sure. They fuel delve. You couldn't run too many of the fetches because fetch lands are not dual lands and there is tension between having to run enough basics for your fetches and dual lands to hit your colors. If you're in 3-colors, you aren't sitting there thinking "Whew, thank god I have these fetch lands to make this work." Unless, they fetch duals and frequently untapped duals. When your fetches fetch dual lands, that tension ceases to exist especially when the duals can enter untapped.
There's no comparable burn card in the Khans block. The closest is Draconic Roar. Clearly, this means that Theros has higher power level and not that some sets and blocks do not support certain spell types... *eyeroll*
If we had both Hero's Downfall and Ruinous Path, Downfall is, without question, better in game one. Game two right now with the other cards, I don't think it's necessarily better. I don't think Dissolve is that much better (if at all) than Scatter to the Winds in game one. I don't think either would stay in after board.
I can go with that. There are more qualitative aspects to the mana base than I was allowing.
The Esper control decks are playable pretty much exclusively due to the current mana base. Dark Jeskai doesn't exist. Blue Abzan doesn't exist. There's plenty of objectively good cards in BFZ.
Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
Drana, Liberator of Malakir
Undergrowth Champion
Dragonmaster Outcast
Oblivion Sower
Ob Nixilis Reignited
Planar Outburst
Radiant Flames
Bring to Light
Painful Truths
Quarantine Field
There's some others that are good.
This mana base is literally squeezing all the value out of Khans and then some. This past GP top 8, not a single deck played fewer than 8 fetches. Two decks played more fetches than mana producing lands. Six of the decks played 12 fetches. You can pretend that this mana base is not having a massive impact on the format and that we'd end up with just iterations of Khans wedges, but that's a delusional fantasy. You'd probably end up with some much worse version of Abzan being carried on the back of Siege Rhino. You might see something in Jeskai, but that Jeskai mana base was just horrific. You don't see Esper. Mantis Rider? Who's that? He's a non-player in that format. I'm sure, the card is "objectively good," but it didn't see much play last go round. You don't even see Abzan running Sandsteppe Citadel anymore. This standard is radically different without the current mana base.
I don't even know why you even bring up cards being lower impact than Siege Rhino or Mantis Rider. That's the whole point. Siege Rhino is a 4/5 trample, drain 3 life for four mana. He's only got all that stuff because he takes three colors to cast. Mantis Rider is a 3/3 with three key words for three mana. You know what doesn't get you a 3/3 flier with three key words for three mana? Three mana cards that don't require three colors. You know how many wedge cards there are in BFZ? Zero. If you expect a non-wedge card to have the same power as a non-wedge card at the same CMC (draft cards aside obviously), you are living in a dream world. If you expect every set to be a wedge set, you shouldn't because that's never going to happen.
Bottom line, Khans cards are unbelievable right now because the difference between casting a wedge card and a single color card is insignificant and Khans had delve which is even better now with the number of fetches decks run.
If you are going to make comparisons between cards, you should at least have them make sense...
Touch of the Void is not a new "iteration" of Lightning Strike. It's draft oriented removal. If you want a card to compare it to, you should use Bolt of Keranos which is also a draft removal spell. It's harder to cast and has scry. Touch of the Void has exile to help make processor decks work in draft. Lightning Strike is designed for constructed play. There's no comparison to be made here.
The awaken cards you've mentioned are more specific. They are more niche but sometimes much more powerful. Atarka Red has been pushed around a lot, but they have a tremendous amount of problems with awaken lands particularly when you awaken Shambling Vents. They have no main deck answers to awaken 4. They have only Roast as an answer in the board. Atarka Red is also not boarding in removal against a deck that has awaken cards. When you need to get low to the ground, awaken is a powerful mechanic. It has the ability to double up as a win con as the game goes on. Awaken is much worse the first game one especially with meta considerations. The decks it's better against aren't as prevalent and removal isn't wholesale boarded out with Jace, Vryn's Prodigy.
I'd take Hero's Downfall right now over Ruinous Path, but that'd be because removal is so weak. If I had them both in format, I'd might still play some number of Ruinous Path in the 75. I'd take Scatter to the Winds over Dissolve if both were in format.