Found judges familiar underwhelming as this format evolves. Format is slower than before, format is mostly midrange and midrange-control, format doesn't favor decks with explosive plays and little gas, format has a lot of spot removal. Considering all these things I moved the judges familiar out in favor of a bigger devotion builder.
Wow did I see a difference, try this build and be amazed, I've really seen a huge improvement and I will continue to play this deck. I await what BotG brings to simic.
Have you considered making your. Feature suite less clogged at cmc2. Maybe smiter instead of lion and 4 voice(I know so dang expensive)? This might help in the esper and American control matches as well.
I would strongly recommend cutting some number of desecration demon and reaper for advent of the wurm as well, this instant speed beater can really turn the tide after a board wipe and be amazing against some midrange decks.
All the weenie decks lately are giving me a stroke. I cant stand it when the online meta copies every winning deck of the week. Especially an aggro deck that doesnt make the game even remotely fun.
I took out the pithing needles and added 2 Gaze of Granite to the sideboard. I dont know if it will be effective, though. The lack of sweepers in this current standard really does make weenie strong. When they have 5 creatures by turn 3 that all synergize off battalion there isnt much you can do.
I might make an american control deck and play 4 Angers and 4 Verdicts mainboard.
Red Aggro, White Aggro, R/W Aggro, and even blue Aggro are so stupid annoying and stupid easy to play. I guess we're in the aggro era, and if this keeps up i'll just wait until the next set before playing MODO anymore.
Ooze can respond to persist triggers, snapcaster triggers, deathrite shaman abilities, academy ruins activations, a living end player cycling creatures at the end of your turn and then cascading on theirs, etc. Jotun Grunt doesn't stop any of these. The life gain from ooze is also often relevant. I haven't tested Grunt but i'm very happy with Ooze, and I think the fact that it is reactive rather than proactive graveyard hate is why it is so good.
I suppose that's the cool thing about this deck. There are so many layers of reactive moves, and so many layers of hate, you want to take the best reactive move possible with every card choice. Even if they break through a layer of hate, or out tempo your reactive moves there is just more and more.
Is scavenging ooze really strictly better than jotun grunt in this deck? Atleast it can't be bolted, on the other hand it's upkeep can get out of hand and it's annoying to lose your stick..... Just wanted to see what you guys thought.
I have every card for the deck, just waiting for linvalla to come in the mail.
Research is a very narrow card, doesn't assure you'll see your Vengevines again, as dredging with an Ooze in the battlefield is pretty difficult (and useless), and even if you do dredge them back, you'd better have dealt with that Ooze because it just won't do anything...
I was just joking actually, just trying to give you the most timmy response....
Mostly because I jut wanted to chime in. I like this deck a lot.
Though I can see its an issue the amount of gy hate that's available for low cmc now. Whoever said go with a more midrange route might have had a good idea. No blood ghast, more removal, more discard, more ways to grind your opponent out. It will be slower and have less explosive plays, but it it seems like there is still plenty of potential.
Maybe the haakon changeling syngergy wouldn't be bad to out remove a bunch the decks that will also 1 for 1 you through out the game.....Maybe try some other tricks with the other retrace cards? More control elements....... More planeswalkers? Maybe make it more of a blasting station type of build like levy was trying to do. I think these are all things people have already considered. Well I got nothing.... Sorry
Anyway you guys are really cool for working on the archetype even after the dredge bannings. Merry building!!!!
The revoker, while boltable, can be searched up with Grisly Salvage and helps to recur our Vengevines... Do you think he is maindeckable in this kind of deck?
It's not that we don't want to, believe me, if we could cut down on colors, regardless of cost, we'd jump right on that.
The real reason is consistency. There's two reasons Living End can get away with a mere 8 cascade spells: first, the enormous amount of cyclers they run. And they can run those because the cyclers double as a win condition with Living End. Also, Living End has a black suspend cost, so it's not going to be a dead card if they draw it.
We don't have any of those things. Cyclers are extremely sub-par because they don't do anything off of a Balance. If we go in Jund colors, Balance is a dead card if we draw it and even with a full set of Gemstone Mines it's still extremely dicey because of the aforementioned lack of consistency. Dimir Machinations could do double duty as a tutor + dig, but it's a fairly mediocre option.
If you're going to try this, cut two cards and run a full set of Dimir Machinations anyway. It's mediocre, but it's the best you got.
How fast does this deck unload it's hand? Maybe infernal tutor?
This build has a very strong emphasis on mana denial, so I would advise against taking the Mindcensor out, ESPECIALLY if you're tailoring against jund and UWR, being down to 1 card, and they go "tick Lilly up", "in response: flash in Mindcensor", then bash kill Lilly next turn as jund has difficulty with flyers.
This deck uses every land almost every turn. Dorks are something you never want to cut, sometimes you need to cast an angel, sometime you need to equip Sword twice because they removed the first target, you also be using every gq and Te, it's not uncommon for me to only have 1 land on the field and then cast a Baneslayer from 4 dorks. They are also good targets for swords. Most of the time if you have a Linvala and a BoP, Equip Sword to BoP and watch them squirm when they need to use a terminate on it instead.
You will also need dorks to reliably cast VoR on either turn 2 or 3. The build runs 8 colourless sources and you'll find that a hand with Temple, dork, Te, and GQ, and that's pretty much a snap keep.
Have you considered weathered wayfarer instead of birds. It would let you play less ghost quarter, and less dorks. You would still have pretty consistent access to tectonic edge, and quarter. It would allow you to play windbrisk heights and mist veil plains as 1s.
It's also got the ability to dull the double edge of path to exile.
Oh brain fart, you can't search. It would work if you only ran 4 mindcensors.
Is crucible of worlds really better than life from the loam? I just ask cause it's slightly cheaper and I was wondering if you really reuse the lands that many times that crucible is better.
By the way, love this deck.
Has anyone seen or heard of a Wbg version of hate bears? Maybe link me to a thread?
There were bad RGB versions that ran cyclers: Deadshot Minotaur and Monstorous Carabid and didn't run suspend creatures. I tried a bunch of different versions of this deck and always wanted 10 cascaders. The RGB version is sub-par, I would honestly rather play the Borderpost version.
So are you guys saying there is no way to run r g b version? or you guys just don't want to brew one up because you want to run the 5c one?
I think it's an interesting question, whether or not this deck could be run 3c and without spending 2 or 3 hundred bucks on lands.
What about totem artifacts and key runes? What about Garruk relentless, xenagos, new Chandra, any of the other rbg walkers, some of them must be able to fit.
Also what about forbidden orchard. Can't that be decent mana fixer in this deck since you shouldn't care about them getting creatures.
I think this deck is interesting, I'm really glad I stumbled on it. I've been playing since fourth edition, however I find life taking me away from the game for prolonged periods of time, especially constructed. I absolutely love coming back to find people making interesting new innovations. So good work guys.
I personally prefer better hands and an earlier snowball, 2 trading posts should work but i wouldn't go more unless they're sided.
He's right everything you are trying to string is cmc4. Forget soldier of pantheon. Precinct captain and voice both have the chance to make multiple bodies which can tie up your opponent for long enough to work in something. Honestly I'd go down to 2 copies each of erebos, trading post, obzedat, and trostani.
The ultimate problem with this deck is that it's trying to do too much. It's an angelic Accord deck, reanimator deck, trading post deck, and BWG good stuff deck all at once. However it doesn't execute any of those strategies well enough and it's got a mediocre curve.
3 copies of angelic accord, they stack but they are expensive.
More removal.
Consider commun with the gods.
Cute ashen rider, pick up 1 angel of serenity.
Consider lotleth troll.
Put in the cards shreda mentioned and voyaging satyr or sylvan caryatid as well.
Just got back from playing a weekly Monday night tournament at a local store. Played some really tough decks, but the deck played awesome, even if I didn't. Here's a summary:
Before going, I took out a Frontline Medic for an Aetherling in the main deck. I set up my sideboard with 3 Negate, 3 Celestial Flare, 3 Gods Willing and a few other cards that I was going to try out but haven't gotten around to yet.
First Round: Blue/Black Control
Game 1 - This guy had an ungodly amount of counter spells and targeted removal (Doom Blade). Even an endless onslaught of Medics, Reckoners, and Archangels couldn't stay on the field for more than a turn. Seriously, the stack of creatures in my graveyard was insane. A very long, drawn out loss.
Game 2 - I boarded in Negates and Gods Willings. Was able to counter an early Underworld Connections and sat tight with several good cards in my hand while I waited to come into a Negate or Gods Willing for protection. Unfortunately neither of them came. I ended up casting 2 Archangels and a Heliod, basically putting them up for slaughter to clear the way for Aetherling on the next turn, which resolved. He tried to cast Hero's Downfall on Aetherling without noticing that I had left a blue mana open, at which point I evaded the removal. For the rest of the game, Aetherling popped in, dodged blockers, struck for 4, and with my open blue mana, he wasn't going to be taken by removal. Aetherling single-handedly won game 2.
Game 3 - I was simply able to put more threats on the board than he could remove. A simple and straight forward win.
Result: 2-1 Win
Second Round: Green/Red Monsters
Game 1 - This was basically a net deck with Stormbreath Dragon, Polukranos, Polis Crusher, Nykthos etc. In the first game, they had a monstrous Stormbreath Dragon and a Polukranos that was going to become monstrous next turn. Needless to say, I was in trouble. Luckily for me, I was able to trigger Frontline Medic's Battalion, swung in with indestructible creatures, then wiped their board with a Supreme Verdict. From there on out, I had board control and won the game shortly thereafter.
Game 2 - Got mana screwed. 'Nuff said.
Result: 1-1 tie (time ran out)
Third Round: U/W Heroic/Evasion
Game 1 - This is a deck that I have handily beaten every time I've played it. Sadly for me, I was unable to draw a single blue mana (After like 7 turns!! This is an extremely rare occurrence), which is what I needed stabilize behind a Supreme Verdict.
Game 2 - This one stung. As usual, he gets in his early game damage, no worries. I get Archangel out and I am 1 turn away from casting Heliod, stabilizing with his devotion, and pretty much winning the game from there because that deck has no answers for mine once I've stabilized. However, I was on the unfortunate end of math as he was able to do exactly enough damage to kill me right before I was able to stabilize.
Result: 0-2 loss
Fourth Round: U/R Burn/Tokens
Game 1 - This guy is known for building token decks. In this particular deck, he was running Young Pyromaster and Master of Waves along with a ton of burn spells (and even a Spellheart Chimera for good measure). In game 1, I stabilized against the early aggression with Reckoner and Yoked Ox, D-Sphered a whole ton of Elemental tokens (lol) and put the final nail in the coffin with an Angel of Serenity that threatened to resurrect a pair of Boros Reckoners and a Frontline Medic if he tried to take it down. Heliod was out on the board and activated as well, so I was able to swing in for damage and defend with ease. In case things went bad for whatever reason, I had Aetherling sitting in my hand. Solid win.
Game 2 - I boarded in 3 Gods Willings for burn protection. Had a solid hand, but the follow-up draws were just exactly what I didn't need to hold off the aggro. Even with all the early game issues, I still almost stabilized but it was too little too late.
Game 3 - Had a beautiful hand. By the end, we were both trading blows. I had Archangel and Boros Reckoner out on the field, backed up by Path of Bravery and Blind Obedience, which were triggering like crazy. Sadly, I dropped the ball on what would have been the game winning move and it cost me the game. I forgot that giving a creature a protection from a certain color also means that a creature of that color is unable to block it. If I had realized that, I would have been able to swing for unblockable lethal damage.
Result 1-2 loss
So the last game hurt, but the deck just played awesome as usual. I beat an extremely tough U/B Control deck, tied with what was basically a pro R/G deck, should have beaten a burn/token deck had it not been for my stupidity, and the only real bad game was against a deck I usually beat but I just got bad/unlucky draws, which happens. So all in all, I can't complain. And I learned some new things:
1) Aetherling is a monster. Once resolved, he can just take over a game. He absolutely wrecked a deck that I was having trouble with. This card will not be leaving the mainboard. LordPrometheus, thank you for the idea. I don't know why I didn't think of it sooner.
2) I feel like God's Willing is more useful than Azorius Charm. Azorius Charm does have nice effects, but I felt like protecting my creatures from targeted removal (and being able to Scry) did a lot more good for the deck than just bouncing early cards back to someone's library. Allowing my creatures to stick to the board really lets the deck come into its own. The charm will probably be a sideboard card while I test out God's Willing.
3) I still suck at Magic. I keep losing games that I shouldn't because of overlooking silly things. However, I do constantly see myself improving and hope to continue to do so. After screwing up a ton of Path of Bravery and Lifegain triggers since creating this deck, I was extremely sharp tonight and didn't miss a single one. That felt quite good. Also, until that final game against the burn deck, my decision making was really good and I was making the most out of every situation.
4) I still love this deck. Even when behind, it does not take much to swing the momentum within a turn or two and win the game from there. I never feel down and out until the final turn. And when it's ahead, it pretty much just doesn't lose (assuming I don't make any stupid mistakes, of course!).
5) Several people have admitted to sideboarding/mainboarding cards just for playing against my deck. I'd say that's a sign that I'm doing something right.
Anyways guys, that's all for now! Thanks for reading.
You don't suck, I've seen that same mistake made even among experienced players. My friend, who has a framed power nine, once gave his creature protection from red to protect it from burn then tried to brute strength it later in the same turn...... I tell him: "you dunce it's not targetable", anyway those things happen.
At this point you have made your deck pretty good. However there is an issue I see. Yoked oz is not that great, I know you wrote aggro, AotG, blah blah. But at the end of the day it just doesn't get you that far and it takes up 4 slots. A good slot choice has to be defensive but also useful in other situations, like cheap removal.
Consider more celestial flare, gods willing, or smite if you are having aggro issues, the last one is really underestimated as your opponent won't expect you to have 1cmc removal.
Consider precinct captain instead of the ox. he gives solid offense and defense since he has first strike. You build is rocking a lot of removal that means he will connect at least once. He is amazing with path of bravery.
Consider 2 Rootborn defense. People will try to board wipe you as well. Or maybe put it in the sideboard.
Listen to what Friday said. He has a point. Choose if you want to play a build which is midrange, or control. Azorious midrange simply doesn't play supreme verdict, you don't want to nuke your own creatures, it's just a fact. it doesn't matter that you have some decent results. If you want great results you want total synergy.
Between some spells like syncopate, dissolve, celestial flare, and detention sphere a deck like this can survive early rounds without mass removal. If however you are playing supreme verdict purely for the medic synergy I would recommend playing some better card draw like revelation or opportunity, only running 2 verdict and 4 medics.
Don't play more than 2 blind obedience. this card has diminishing returns later in the game when your opponent will have much bigger threats. At that point in the game it's life drain will have minimal impact and even with thune angel synergy you won't have enough cards in hand to get full use out of that. If you are playing more than 2 copies for its tap ability consider 1 or 2 imposing sovereign.
Consider Ajani, he can have similar utility to path of bravery and also be a threat on his own. He gives control players a real fit. He forces your opponent to think about a planewalker. He's got an insane ultimate if you are gaining life and it seems like your are.
I just realized that you played seraph of the sword because you have no threats at cmc 4. Here is what I will say; if you have more creatures in your meta stick with seraph, maybe even add another. If you have more control then ascended lawmage will be better.
I think 4 thune angle and 1 aetherling is putting a very high curve. Cut 1 thune. Be careful with things like mana curve, it's what makes the difference between good players and great players. If you need to make a minor power decrease in your deck it's better than having a bad curve and not getting out your spells.
Guys I need your help. My best friend/ deck tester is putting together Melira pod and says he can't afford the chord of callings, but he has every other card. What can replace chord, he wants to use fauna shaman, I told him he is bugging out. Help me convince him to throw down the cash or find a better replacement.
If you want card draw consider going Grixis and get steam augury.
Ok syncopate, I like it but it doesn't feed aberration since it's exile. So I play dissolve.
If you go Grixis you can put in frostburn weird over returned phalanx.
Ultimate price over doom blade IMHO.
4 Cloudfin Raptor
3 nightveil specter
4 Master of Waves
3 Master Biomancer
3 frostburn weird
4 Sylvan Carytid
3 Thassa, God of the Sea
2 Simic charm
2 Cyclonic Rift
2 Swan song
2 giant growth
2 bident of thassa
2 Jace, architect of thought
Land (24)
13 Islands
5 Forests
4 Breeding Pool
2 Temple of Mystery
Found judges familiar underwhelming as this format evolves. Format is slower than before, format is mostly midrange and midrange-control, format doesn't favor decks with explosive plays and little gas, format has a lot of spot removal. Considering all these things I moved the judges familiar out in favor of a bigger devotion builder.
Wow did I see a difference, try this build and be amazed, I've really seen a huge improvement and I will continue to play this deck. I await what BotG brings to simic.
I would strongly recommend cutting some number of desecration demon and reaper for advent of the wurm as well, this instant speed beater can really turn the tide after a board wipe and be amazing against some midrange decks.
Gaze of granite.......?
What about ratchet bomb?
I suppose that's the cool thing about this deck. There are so many layers of reactive moves, and so many layers of hate, you want to take the best reactive move possible with every card choice. Even if they break through a layer of hate, or out tempo your reactive moves there is just more and more.
I have every card for the deck, just waiting for linvalla to come in the mail.
I was just joking actually, just trying to give you the most timmy response....
Mostly because I jut wanted to chime in. I like this deck a lot.
Though I can see its an issue the amount of gy hate that's available for low cmc now. Whoever said go with a more midrange route might have had a good idea. No blood ghast, more removal, more discard, more ways to grind your opponent out. It will be slower and have less explosive plays, but it it seems like there is still plenty of potential.
Maybe the haakon changeling syngergy wouldn't be bad to out remove a bunch the decks that will also 1 for 1 you through out the game.....Maybe try some other tricks with the other retrace cards? More control elements....... More planeswalkers? Maybe make it more of a blasting station type of build like levy was trying to do. I think these are all things people have already considered. Well I got nothing.... Sorry
Anyway you guys are really cool for working on the archetype even after the dredge bannings. Merry building!!!!
Cant you also just research your 4 vines back?
How fast does this deck unload it's hand? Maybe infernal tutor?
Have you considered weathered wayfarer instead of birds. It would let you play less ghost quarter, and less dorks. You would still have pretty consistent access to tectonic edge, and quarter. It would allow you to play windbrisk heights and mist veil plains as 1s.
It's also got the ability to dull the double edge of path to exile.
Oh brain fart, you can't search. It would work if you only ran 4 mindcensors.
Is crucible of worlds really better than life from the loam? I just ask cause it's slightly cheaper and I was wondering if you really reuse the lands that many times that crucible is better.
By the way, love this deck.
Has anyone seen or heard of a Wbg version of hate bears? Maybe link me to a thread?
So are you guys saying there is no way to run r g b version? or you guys just don't want to brew one up because you want to run the 5c one?
I think it's an interesting question, whether or not this deck could be run 3c and without spending 2 or 3 hundred bucks on lands.
What about totem artifacts and key runes? What about Garruk relentless, xenagos, new Chandra, any of the other rbg walkers, some of them must be able to fit.
Also what about forbidden orchard. Can't that be decent mana fixer in this deck since you shouldn't care about them getting creatures.
I think this deck is interesting, I'm really glad I stumbled on it. I've been playing since fourth edition, however I find life taking me away from the game for prolonged periods of time, especially constructed. I absolutely love coming back to find people making interesting new innovations. So good work guys.
He's right everything you are trying to string is cmc4. Forget soldier of pantheon. Precinct captain and voice both have the chance to make multiple bodies which can tie up your opponent for long enough to work in something. Honestly I'd go down to 2 copies each of erebos, trading post, obzedat, and trostani.
The ultimate problem with this deck is that it's trying to do too much. It's an angelic Accord deck, reanimator deck, trading post deck, and BWG good stuff deck all at once. However it doesn't execute any of those strategies well enough and it's got a mediocre curve.
3 copies of angelic accord, they stack but they are expensive.
More removal.
Consider commun with the gods.
Cute ashen rider, pick up 1 angel of serenity.
Consider lotleth troll.
Put in the cards shreda mentioned and voyaging satyr or sylvan caryatid as well.
Drop all artifacts, they stink.
You don't suck, I've seen that same mistake made even among experienced players. My friend, who has a framed power nine, once gave his creature protection from red to protect it from burn then tried to brute strength it later in the same turn...... I tell him: "you dunce it's not targetable", anyway those things happen.
At this point you have made your deck pretty good. However there is an issue I see. Yoked oz is not that great, I know you wrote aggro, AotG, blah blah. But at the end of the day it just doesn't get you that far and it takes up 4 slots. A good slot choice has to be defensive but also useful in other situations, like cheap removal.
Consider more celestial flare, gods willing, or smite if you are having aggro issues, the last one is really underestimated as your opponent won't expect you to have 1cmc removal.
Consider precinct captain instead of the ox. he gives solid offense and defense since he has first strike. You build is rocking a lot of removal that means he will connect at least once. He is amazing with path of bravery.
Consider 2 Rootborn defense. People will try to board wipe you as well. Or maybe put it in the sideboard.
Listen to what Friday said. He has a point. Choose if you want to play a build which is midrange, or control. Azorious midrange simply doesn't play supreme verdict, you don't want to nuke your own creatures, it's just a fact. it doesn't matter that you have some decent results. If you want great results you want total synergy.
Between some spells like syncopate, dissolve, celestial flare, and detention sphere a deck like this can survive early rounds without mass removal. If however you are playing supreme verdict purely for the medic synergy I would recommend playing some better card draw like revelation or opportunity, only running 2 verdict and 4 medics.
Don't play more than 2 blind obedience. this card has diminishing returns later in the game when your opponent will have much bigger threats. At that point in the game it's life drain will have minimal impact and even with thune angel synergy you won't have enough cards in hand to get full use out of that. If you are playing more than 2 copies for its tap ability consider 1 or 2 imposing sovereign.
Consider Ajani, he can have similar utility to path of bravery and also be a threat on his own. He gives control players a real fit. He forces your opponent to think about a planewalker. He's got an insane ultimate if you are gaining life and it seems like your are.
I just realized that you played seraph of the sword because you have no threats at cmc 4. Here is what I will say; if you have more creatures in your meta stick with seraph, maybe even add another. If you have more control then ascended lawmage will be better.
I think 4 thune angle and 1 aetherling is putting a very high curve. Cut 1 thune. Be careful with things like mana curve, it's what makes the difference between good players and great players. If you need to make a minor power decrease in your deck it's better than having a bad curve and not getting out your spells.