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  • 0

    posted a message on Wasitora and O-Kagachi possibly in Commander 2017! Who else?
    Quote from Yatsufusa »
    Well, I'm not any less happy to see O-Kagachi on a card. It's a card I will purchase and treasure in my Kamigawa themed EDH deck for sure. That said, I feel like with booster sets designed for Standard and Draft as a priority, that's generally the place (and rightfully so) that Legendaries are scaled back and more efficient/mid-range. In these supplemental products designed for casual formats populated by Vorthos I just feel they really should let it rip. Playing it too safe with these designs robs the lore and the spirit of EDH. I'm concerned it's the same mistake as with Ludevic, where he lacked lore related flavor and any synergy because the card was designed Bottom-Up and later dressed as Ludevic for the sake of getting a card for him out there. I'm sure he wasn't any less cherished by fans, but having a wholesome card would have been ideal.


    My headcanon now is that this O-Kagachi was his 6-headed form when he chased after Toshiro at Minamo Academy and not the 8-headed form that nullified non-Kyodai Magic, the same way I've always taken Final Judgment to be his 3-headed form that steamrolled Konda's army and tore Yosei up.

    If you think about it, his ability implies the All-Consuming attacking him and getting torn into two (which gameplay translates to exile), which well, was the same thing that happened to Yosei and Final Judgment (Judgment exiling all was an additional reference to Konda's Army).
    The funny thing about this all is that O-Kagachi didn't get a card beyond a depiction on Final Judgment in the original Kamigawa block because he was deemed to powerful to print.

    Regrettably, the art shows 8 heads. And frankly, if 3 heads are capable of an effect like Final Judgment, which is certainly in line with the lore, then I am still disappointed that even 6 heads would be THIS.

    But you know, I am just happy to have a 5 color O-Kagachi card, and I know there's simply nothing to do but accept this and see the good in it, which is that he is finally printed, at least. I only voice this displeasure to emphasize to WOTC, if they're reading, that they really need to design these character cards Top-Down, and if not, at least ensure they end up like Taigam or Kydele where the Bottom-Up effect is actually suitable. Or better yet, ensure that the design puts Vorthos and the Lore as the priority, and not absurd rules for a casual Vorthos product as if a mana curve or power level need to be a concern in EDH.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
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    posted a message on Commander 2017 announcement -- Only 4 decks, based on popular tribes, not color wheel!
    Quote from Yatsufusa »
    Quote from 5colors »
    Power and toughness shouldn't be used as a way to figure out anything about flavor. Thats why you get philosophers wrestling bears or Emmara Tandris being able to take a Sun Titan and rats and bugs able to take down most humans.


    The whole point of O-Kagachi was without his divinity, he was still able to steamroll Konda's army without paying attention and cleave into two Yosei and the strongest Oni of all of Kamigawa with the smallest amount of annoyance.... without using all of his 8 heads. In fact he steamrolled Konda's army with a mere 3 heads, which was well, depicted in a way.

    "O-Kagachi was weakened" doesn't feel like any excuse when it was canonically stated in that weakened form he was pretty much still the most powerful being on the plane. The only possibly contenders were the Myojin, but they were all shown to be still subservient to O-Kagachi. It took pretty much the one thing that he was missing from complete invulnerability to kill him (Michiko was clearly just a beneficent of Kyodai in that entire fight) and that one thing was sealed for majority of the story until the very end.

    With the title of "Eight-Headed Serpent" and mentions that the Life's Web was probably the closest Kami to him, O-Kagachi not being an 8/8 just doesn't feel right. It's not a matter of gameplay, it's every flavor involving him pointing that direction.

    I'm just going to assume this O-Kagachi was his 6-headed form when he chased after Toshiro at Minamo Academy and not the 8-headed one that nullified all non-Kyodai Magic, the same way Final Judgment was probably his 3-headed form at Eiganjo. Too bad the flavor text doesn't support it, so the majority of people (not here, just overall across the game) won't know exactly how powerful O-Kagachi was despite being weakened, if they thought weakened O-Kagachi at full strength was this 6/6 form.
    I'd have even been disappointed in an 8/8. And this isn't even accounting for the passive ability they gave to such a ferocious divinity that even the Sisters fought long and hard to subdue and defeat. His size was emphasized most in the novels, a respectable P/T was the least I would expect.

    As for abilities… it's awkwardly benign. People in EDH don't frequently attack unless they have a massive army of tokens or have built up respectable field advantage. Going aggressive early is met with disapproval and fear from the table, and not making attacks count can make an game-long enemy out of someone. O-Kagachi will just mean "attack me when you can game me only" (which most would do anyway) and even then, his effect is so conditional people can easily avoid it at several different steps. Eliminate the player, stop them from attacking, block it, exile/destroy it before trigger, etc. It's not a hard deterrent to anything.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
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    posted a message on Genju of Kamigawa
    Updated deck to O-Kagachi as general, added in missing characters.

    Anything which depicts, alludes to or references a mention location or character from the books is included, including relevant storyline moment cards.

    I wish I had room for a few off characters like Azami, Kumano, Azusa, etc. But with as many cards as this theme requires, something not directly in the novels had to be cut. I think Ryusei and Kokusho are the only non-novel cards in the deck, just to complete the cycle. I may remove them for more lands.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
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    posted a message on C17 POSSIBLE leaks - real/fake not yet determined
    Quote from MinaHarcourt »
    And I was just building a Scion of the Ur-Dragon EDH deck.... DESTINY DESTINY NO ESCAPING IT FOR ME DESTINY DESTINY


    Move over junior, daddy's here!


    I might actually keep Scion as the main guy. Just put big Big Daddy in the 99, and use Scions ability to pitch him to the yard for recursion.
    That's how I'd play it.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
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    posted a message on Wasitora and O-Kagachi possibly in Commander 2017! Who else?
    Quote from void_nothing »
    Quote from void_nothing »
    I wonder if the art, and characters used on the cards is accurate, but the templates are fake? Grammar and certain decisions about, for example O-Kagachi's P/T have been called into question. I hope that's the case because I really want to see a larger O-Kagachi at least. I can live with the rest, but do not do a worldsoul dirty like that.

    I think the justification they're using is that O-Kagachi is represented in that card at the nadir of his power, having been reduced to mere "powerful kami" status rather than "Lord of Kami and Mortals" because of his lengthy separation from the Taken One. And I can see that from a design standpoint, because they clearly wanted the Ur-Dragon in the Dragons deck and two huge 10/10 five-color fatties would be hard to differentiate enough.
    I don't think the latter reason, although valid to WOTC I'm sure, is something I am comfortable with. Have two 5-color 10/10 fatties in the same deck is frankly perfect. That's what Commander is all about, and it's more accurate that way.

    I'm willing to grant that the temporal separation between him and Kyodai (rather than just the initial physical separation) diminished him. But I will note that each appearance of O-Kagachi in the books showed him getting larger and more ferocious, as he would only partly manifest at first, and more slowly at first. By the time he faces the Sisters, O-Kagachi is his full size, and he flashes into existence rather than slowly and partially manifesting… his form fills the horizons of Kamigawa at that point too.

    There are further justifications you could use to (charitably) explain or (less charitably) retcon the events of the books. O-Kagachi is powerful enough in the first appearances that he doesn't think he needs his full form but later grows in desperation, possibly making a semi-illusionary appearance in hope of simply overawing the mortals who messed with him into capitulation. And in the case of the Sisters, maybe Kyodai's presence in a mortal body was enough to recharge O-Kagachi into almost his full strength, or the righteous indignation he felt at his "child" being reduced to mortal status gave him the power he needed to re-god-ify one last time?

    Regardless, I get the sense that his size is your only issue with the cards as presented, and I feel where you're coming from with EDH being the land-of-the-titans. But as a custom designer and a Commander player I know that there have to be midrange sized options, too, especially for commanders themselves. A lot of R&D are flavor fans and I don't doubt they had to make a tough decision making a small O-Kagachi, but I like both the card as presented in the leaks and your 14/14 world-ender that you custom designed. To me they represent related but very distinct aspects or versions of one character that fit together as an interesting whole.
    Well, I'm not any less happy to see O-Kagachi on a card. It's a card I will purchase and treasure in my Kamigawa themed EDH deck for sure. That said, I feel like with booster sets designed for Standard and Draft as a priority, that's generally the place (and rightfully so) that Legendaries are scaled back and more efficient/mid-range. In these supplemental products designed for casual formats populated by Vorthos I just feel they really should let it rip. Playing it too safe with these designs robs the lore and the spirit of EDH. I'm concerned it's the same mistake as with Ludevic, where he lacked lore related flavor and any synergy because the card was designed Bottom-Up and later dressed as Ludevic for the sake of getting a card for him out there. I'm sure he wasn't any less cherished by fans, but having a wholesome card would have been ideal.

    Regarding Thraxes - I'm not familiar with many dragons outside him and O-Kagachi really. He's the Typhon trope of Theros though, which I admire. Return to Theros could deliver him just as easily, but this is appropriate too. How many other high profile dragons in need of cards are there?
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
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    posted a message on Commander 2017 announcement -- Only 4 decks, based on popular tribes, not color wheel!
    Quote from MinaHarcourt »
    I think you're having some serious Segovian Syndrome.

    Certainly you've seen the post that there were about...what...15 creatures in all of Kamigawa with high power/toughness combinations? O-Kagachi may not be big compared to, say, a Phyrexian Dreadnought but on Kamigawa he is a giant.
    Why should Myojin of Life's Web be larger? I would have designed the card differently. That said, you all know damn well I want O-Kagachi card and will celebrate it as a treasured commander. But having it be a Timmy classic would have been nice.

    I wonder if we'll get a Mono-Red Thraxes here?

    Could the unexpected tribe be Krakens? Please don't make Arixmethes anything but Mono-Blue when the card is made. That's a creature we know should be a 12/12.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
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    posted a message on Wasitora and O-Kagachi possibly in Commander 2017! Who else?
    Quote from void_nothing »
    I wonder if the art, and characters used on the cards is accurate, but the templates are fake? Grammar and certain decisions about, for example O-Kagachi's P/T have been called into question. I hope that's the case because I really want to see a larger O-Kagachi at least. I can live with the rest, but do not do a worldsoul dirty like that.

    I think the justification they're using is that O-Kagachi is represented in that card at the nadir of his power, having been reduced to mere "powerful kami" status rather than "Lord of Kami and Mortals" because of his lengthy separation from the Taken One. And I can see that from a design standpoint, because they clearly wanted the Ur-Dragon in the Dragons deck and two huge 10/10 five-color fatties would be hard to differentiate enough.
    I don't think the latter reason, although valid to WOTC I'm sure, is something I am comfortable with. Have two 5-color 10/10 fatties in the same deck is frankly perfect. That's what Commander is all about, and it's more accurate that way.

    I'm willing to grant that the temporal separation between him and Kyodai (rather than just the initial physical separation) diminished him. But I will note that each appearance of O-Kagachi in the books showed him getting larger and more ferocious, as he would only partly manifest at first, and more slowly at first. By the time he faces the Sisters, O-Kagachi is his full size, and he flashes into existence rather than slowly and partially manifesting… his form fills the horizons of Kamigawa at that point too.

    EDIT

    Could we see Thraxes here btw?
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
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    posted a message on Wasitora and O-Kagachi possibly in Commander 2017! Who else?
    I wonder if the art, and characters used on the cards is accurate, but the templates are fake? Grammar and certain decisions about, for example O-Kagachi's P/T have been called into question. I hope that's the case because I really want to see a larger O-Kagachi at least. I can live with the rest, but do not do a worldsoul dirty like that.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • 4

    posted a message on C17 POSSIBLE leaks - real/fake not yet determined
    Quote from Yatsufusa »
    Actually come to think of it, O-Kagachi should have at least been an 8/8. He was mentioned as the Eight-Headed Serpent so many times in the novel and from the way he sweeped the floor with Konda's army, Yosei and the All-Consuming Oni of Chaos, I'm not buying each head was worth less than a 1/1. As mentioned by many others already his lack of indestructibility could be excused, but he still needed some form of protection (none of army's tactics works, the enhanced wall only delayed O-Kagachi for a few minutes, Yosei's beams could not overcome the serpent's regeneration and well the All-Consuming's attacks literally bounced off), even if it was the troll one.

    And he really needed the same Eminence the Ur-Dragon has, except for spirits (and arcane while we're at it). It doesn't combo directly with the soulshift mechanic, but I can see it being a great support for it and the "Spiritcraft" mechanic the entire block had. Now that I stated this, it really felt like the entire Kamigawa Block got diminished in favor of Dragons, ironically because O-Kagachi brought so much attention.

    I probably should just be happy we got a card from a long-gone Kamigawa character, but I still felt that it was diminished so much that I'm not even sure anymore.

    EDIT: Text fixing.
    This is how I feel. I am thrilled that he finally has a card, and that it is 5-color. I have wanted cards for characters like O-Kagachi for a long time, like many. Yet I can't emphasize my displeasure enough with how weak he was made, because of inaccuracy. It's just inaccurate. I'm betting this was a Bottom-Up design too, which I just don't feel is appropriate for such cards or even the product itself. I will always celebrate a cardless character getting finally printed, especially one from Kamigawa. But I can't help but be disappointed in the disconnect with the lore when such a thing was not necessary. Just design these new character cards Top-Down for Commander products. Make their effects and P/T appropriate to the lore. Such cards are for Vorthos, so I don't understand why Vorthos Commander cards are being designed as if they were meant for a confined format like Draft or Standard? As if having too many grand, overcosted cards or an imbalanced mana curve is going to be dreaded for a fun Vorthosy casual format of lore fans?

    Think about it. Who is WOTC trying to please by giving O-Kagachi a card? Who is going to be most excited about the character and their representation? Vorthos. Not people who care about mana curves or mana economics.

    And these decks get altered, taken apart, spread between different decks, etc. So these strict design rules are unnecessary. Just give us accurate characters at all costs. Even if it takes 15 damn mana and a hard cast restriction to do it. Hell I'll pay 15 U for an Arixmethes that is a 12/12 ("at least as big as Kozilek") than have some stupid design rule which forces him to be smaller than freaking Tromokratis for the sake of mana curves in a casual Vorthos pre-con deck.

    This exact mistake was made with Ludevic.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
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    posted a message on Commander 2017 announcement -- Only 4 decks, based on popular tribes, not color wheel!
    Quote from Uthanak8 »
    People hating on O-Kagachi are forgetting this is the version without his heart. If he had his heart he would be bigger and come into play with a divinity counter like a Kami, which would make him indestructible. Because his heart was taken out he became smaller, weaker and was ultimately defeated by Michiko Konda and his Daughter. So he is fair for the power level he is at now. With his heart he should have been printed much stronger, I agree.
    Even without Kyodai, O-Kagachi was still the most powerful and most fearsome Kami of all. He was remarkably powerful. The descriptions alone warrant a 10/10 at least.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
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    posted a message on Commander 2017 announcement -- Only 4 decks, based on popular tribes, not color wheel!
    The problem here has been identified by MaRo. They design these Bottom-Up, not Top-Down.

    This is exactly why Ludevic ended up being disappointing. And now O-Kagachi.

    No one is disappointed to see them on cards - the opposite in fact.

    They need to stop designing these decks around mechanics and stop making them Bottom-Up. It's become apparent, as it should have always been, that Commander is dominated by Vorthos, and Timmys. We want cool accurate and flashy cards. Instead they're bending the lore to fit whatever mechanics they want to design around when in reality, they should start with the characters and give them appropriate effects and P/T.

    It's really OKAY to have odd, non-conforming Top-Down designs here. Players take apart and change these decks. Stop designing them to be kept as some concise, mechanic-oriented builds and start giving us the accurate character cards we want. MAke them huge and flashy with high CMCs if you must. Make O-Kagachi cost 100 freaking CMC if you want. Just make it massive and stunning like he should be. Big flavorful spells are what Commander is all about.
    The point of having alternate commanders is that they'll play differently though. At only 6/6 for 6 that makes O-Kagachi the rattlesnake commander rather than making it an easy commander killer if it had 7+ power. Ur Dragon likes to play dragon tribal and Ramos likes to play multicolor matters. Ur is going to go for the commander kill. It only works when dragons attack and it's a 10/10 flier but Ramos has the mana pulling it away from necessarily being a beatstick since if you go to combat, you're limited to instants and abilties if it gets in trouble. Now, it would work just fine if you swapped O-Kagachi and Ur but it's unfortunate that this deck is the only good way to do either of them due to being dead and 5 color. Now, yeah, ideally, O-Kagachi should be more powerful than Myojin of Life's Web since it's the greatest of the kami but good game play is something that often beats out flavor. I mean how are you going to realistically make multiple 10/10 fliers that aren't going to be primarily about pounding the hell out of someone? Other than its size, though, the card does fit decently. The card with the spirit exiles things and it fits with the revenge attacks of the Kami war. The ability wouldn't really work all that well if it could just as easily kill the player, though.
    Swapping Ur and O-Kagachi is an acceptable solution that I wish had been the case. Ur can retain his abilities. But really it's unacceptable that Ur would be the 10/10 here and not O-Kagachi. With a far more active rather than passive effect too… just upsetting. The big grand game-aweing moment should be casting something like O-Kagachi. A plane leader, a head legend, a major force and antagonist from the books. Who honestly figured some dragon would be equivalent to the oldest and most powerful divinity of an entire plane?
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
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    posted a message on C17 POSSIBLE leaks - real/fake not yet determined
    I'm just sad they made Ur Dragon a more powerful card than O-Kagachi.

    Is it possible the art on these are real, but the cards themselves are fake? I'd love that. We get the same characters and these artworks, but on better designed cards - at least for O-Kagachi.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
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    posted a message on C17 POSSIBLE leaks - real/fake not yet determined
    Quote from Arn »
    1. O-Kagachi should have been called just O-Kagachi.
    2. He should have been a 10/10
    3. He should have indeed exiled non-land permanents equal to damage dealt to a player.
    4. He should have had Vigilance and Haste, even if all this meant him costing 10 Mana.

    O-Kagachi
    Legendary Creature - Dragon Spirit
    5WUBRG
    10/10
    Flying, Trample, Vigilance, Haste
    Whenever O-Kagachi deals combat damage to a player, exile that many non-land permanents that player controls.

    And yes. It should be horrifying.


    You forgot the kitchen sink. Teach
    I could have lived with it if he were at least 10/10.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
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    posted a message on Commander 2017 announcement -- Only 4 decks, based on popular tribes, not color wheel!
    The problem here has been identified by MaRo. They design these Bottom-Up, not Top-Down.

    This is exactly why Ludevic ended up being disappointing. And now O-Kagachi.

    No one is disappointed to see them on cards - the opposite in fact.

    They need to stop designing these decks around mechanics and stop making them Bottom-Up. It's become apparent, as it should have always been, that Commander is dominated by Vorthos, and Timmys. We want cool accurate and flashy cards. Instead they're bending the lore to fit whatever mechanics they want to design around when in reality, they should start with the characters and give them appropriate effects and P/T.

    It's really OKAY to have odd, non-conforming Top-Down designs here. Players take apart and change these decks. Stop designing them to be kept as some concise, mechanic-oriented builds and start giving us the accurate character cards we want. MAke them huge and flashy with high CMCs if you must. Make O-Kagachi cost 100 freaking CMC if you want. Just make it massive and stunning like he should be. Big flavorful spells are what Commander is all about.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
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    posted a message on C17 POSSIBLE leaks - real/fake not yet determined
    1. O-Kagachi should have been called just O-Kagachi.
    2. He should have been a 10/10
    3. He should have indeed exiled non-land permanents equal to damage dealt to a player.
    4. He should have had Vigilance and Haste, even if all this meant him costing 10 Mana.

    O-Kagachi
    Legendary Creature - Dragon Spirit
    5WUBRG
    10/10
    Flying, Trample, Vigilance, Haste
    Whenever O-Kagachi deals combat damage to a player, exile that many non-land permanents that player controls.

    And yes. It should be horrifying.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
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