Summoner's Pact is very interesting.. hadn't considered that, thanks for the suggestion!
I know it's hard to fathom from just looking at the decklist, but getting U is really no problem at all. Once you are going off you will find the lotus petals, guaranteed. The tricky part is finding the right build which has good T1 or T2 hands to go off with. If you have too high a desnity of cheery 0 s, you may end up with a lot of hands composed entirely of them. My latest rendition has only reckless bushwhacker for the win with grapeshot and brain freeze in the side. 4 multani's presence also SB in case my opponent wants to put chalice of the void on 0 , as was suggested above.
I play 1 dryad arbor because it fixes land grant when you are going off from a brick into a creature when you need it to keep glimpse rollin', or it can cast you glimpse on T2. Sounds thin, but I have found it to be a good variance-reducer.
Scapegoat is very interesting because when it resolves it ensures your combo will succeed. But in my playtesting with it I found that scapegoat + white mana was too much to ask for when I am combo-ing off.
Endless One > Phyrexian Marauder or Shifting Wall . I am always tinkering with the right balance of 0 -drops, spells, & lands, so I threw him in there just because I was wanting a bit more creatures. Gamble is in there because it's the best 1 CMC tutor when it works, & because - hey - this whole damn deck is a gamble, why not let it ride? It's great fun playing an honest gamble. And then when you have 20 cards in hand it becomes a dishonest gamble for your wincon.
- I prefer brain freeze over grapeshot because by the time you go off with the final spell they are both equally easy to play and have plenty storm count. I just like having a non-damage alternative to attacking with bushwhacker as an alternative wincon.
- I have never really noticed a need for extra mana to make this combo go off - such as can be generated by culling the weak and infernal plunge. The wincons both cost only 2 and you usually have access to 3 or 4 mana by the time you go for the kill.
- Chalice of the Void is indeed a powerful card and a serious threat to this deck. I bring in Mortal Combat as an alternative wincon in those matchups because it does not matter if the creatures are dead. I just let them be countered. It's out of abrupt decay range too. Multani's presence is excellent, and I gave it a lot of consideration. However, I have noticed that the mechanism of this combo is quite specific and there is absolutely no room for non-essential cards. Could be workable from the side though..
I realize that on paper it looks like I would never have enough mana, but I usually find it.
The meta I test against contains:
Storm, Colorless Eldrazi, Lands, D&T, Elves, Miracles, Grixis Delver, MUD, High Tide, Dredge, Leylines, & Infect so I have tried it out against a lot of stuff.
I appreciate your reminding me of some classic Cheeri0s cards, but I am particularly interested to see if anyone knows of some new additions which might benefit this zany old archetype.
Is it a glass cannon? Yes! But it's the damn finest glass cannon you'll ever see! I know the mana seems very tight, and it is - be warned, this is a deck that may need to mulligan hard & often. Thank God for the Vancouver mull! The premise is simple - so long as you have a mana, a glimpse, & at least 4 0 -drops, you should win 95% of the time if goldfishing. IRL, against a wide variety of Legacy decks, the match-ups are pretty much like you'd imagine: nigh 100% vs. certain decks (like Elves), significantly worse match-ups vs. fair decks with interaction. It's important to remember that even though they have tons of counterspells, you can still catch them by surprise. Naturally, Force of Will is as tough on this deck as it is on belcher; I have toyed with the idea of including my own playset in the side).
All that being said, it is an incredibly fun deck to play, especially as a comic relief in the sometimes too serious Legacy metagame.
it's my opponent's turn, and s/he taps mana to play a spell
AFTER s/he taps mana, but BEFORE the spell comes down
Can I play standstill with flash, such that my opponent has the choice to either play the spell & crack standstill, or the mana stays tapped and they choose not to play it?
I'll preface this by stating that i know that the following is an utter bastardization of two distinct kinds of decks. I am likely to get some criticism for breaking from the tried & true uses of these cards. But I was compelled by the question: what if you didn't go for a big combo win with the dredge tactic, but rather just pre-filled your graveyard for every delve spell you are about to cast?? Admittedly, I do not know much about the dark arts of dredge, but I imagine this to be a deck that would rely heavily on drawing first and discarding troll or imp, a bit like manaless dredge. phantasmo, putrid, & good ol' cabal therapy help. Probes & Wraiths are there to fill the 'yard as usual and to trigger dredges. Lake of the dead is a little aesthetic choice that can ramp up to get you the extra mile for a latter delve creature. Circling vultures is this deck's Delver of Secrets , maybe not the best card but supportable once we get dredging for several turns consecutively. Stick Gurmag Anglers, Tasigur, and Tombstalker in the early game for the win! (i think it must use all of them in order to have enough to reliable 'go off' with, because there's no hope of real card drawing here.
It has disadvantage of being almost completely unreactive, which is much more of a liability for an aggro deck than a true combo deck. But I think with some modification this low cost deck could at least manage to sling 2-3 big delve creatures very quickly, for whatever that's worth. I want to make this as a deck for my wife who wants to play something mono black, but wouldn't want me to spend the money on say, thoughtseizes, dark confidants, entombs, etc. Please, any advice would be quite welcome
Yeah 4 Pyromancer, he turns all your cantrips into damage, I think it's critical to run 4 in delver, and it's a budget card! Void Snare is like vapor snag but with a little more versatility for (not an instant tho). Which reminds me, if you want Monastery Swiftspear to reach her full potential, you have to be playing more spells on your turn than your opponent, which might make you want to play more removal & burn than counters. I think Grim Lavamancer would be excellent too as Kurts was saying because you will have a ton of cards in the yard and nothing else to do with 'em. Because your on basics, consider Price of Progress .
Variance can be defined as what makes magic awesome. The reason that Magic is still such an intriguing puzzle even after years and years is because of the staggering possibilities involved. Just looking at building your own deck: you're not really deciding how many of a card to put in. You're deciding what odds you want to assign that card: 1:60, 1:30, 1:20, or 1:15. Then things like fetch lands and Gitaxian Probe start whittling the denominators of those odds down as you go, so you have to always think not about what might make a great hand, but what you would want to draw into and when.
That's just your deck. Then you have to think about the meta and anticipate the % chance that you will see a certain % of cards in any of a variety of opponents.
Also, shuffling! How close one's shuffles are to true randomization is hugely variable from person to person, and there's no standardized rules about it! Well, maybe not making rules about it is the closest thing to allowing it to be random, but the funny thing is we often get in habits of doing those motions the same way and can begin to develop a subconscious method of stacking are decks with the same cards based on how we scoop up and how we go about shuffling. I believe that because we build to use our whole deck's diversity, hearty shuffling is actually a skill that can improve one's game.
Also, I realize that with all the duals this isn't exactly a budget deck, but I thought it would be a good avenue to bring up the question: what does Budget Legacy Delver look like? I just included the cards that I actually own
Here's a link to the main thread. If you lurk around in that thread, you can see what other people were doing before treasure cruise and see how close your list is to stock.
I see a few lists with Fire // Ice as a 1 of...I guess it is close to forked bolt and pitches to FoW? A few other things like sometimes chain lightning or stuff like spell snare...apparently Stoneforge is a huge issue. Beyond that, one poster suggested using Tome Scour to reach threshold faster for Tamo/Mongoose. Most suggest playing more costly wastelands though. By and a large, you are almost right on with a build--its just a matter of fine tuning.
The most interesting thing I saw when lurking in the thread was a guy trying to splash black into delver for the insane green/black cards--Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay. Shaman especially can do some thing without access to black, but you start losing deck identity and focus with a 4th color. If you go black, then Tasigur, the Golden Fang starts looking more appealing than hooting...I mean you lose trample for an extra toughness and an ability that is unlikely to be used too much. I know Grixis tempo is a thing too--replacing green seems somewhat appealing in that regard, though you'd probably want dark confidents or something else, which are still really pricy. But all that speculation is getting off topic because the entire deck is changing at that point.
I think hooting and delver are probably your best creatures...if lists are only running 12, you only have 4 slots to fill. That question of course is what creatures are best. I don't think Kird Ape is bad at all. I've never seen a deck try Snapcaster but surely he couldn't be that bad, though for 3 mana you could also have a True-Name Nemesis. If you really want to stretch, maybe Spellstutter Sprite . Its not very dangerous but helps with disruption. I really don't know what to fill that slot with though that's as fast and good as what you lose with mongoose/gorf combo.
All good tips, and thanks for linking to the big thread! Yes, is definitely hotter right now, but I am committed to , it being more my style. I think both versions will continue to have longevity. True-Name Nemesis , even as a 'fun-of' (1x) could add some of the power that's lost without tarmo-goose. I honestly have trouble seeing why Tasigur, the Golden Fang is any better than hooting mandrills , as they both survive bolt and personally I'd rather have trample. One thing both these 'delvers' have on tarmogoyf: you can draw them through counter-top and they are immune to Abrupt Decay .
Epiphany: while sadly my favorite card Nimble Mongoose can't be adequately supported by graveyard-gobbling Hooting Mandrills , Grim Lavamancer can now feasibly squeeze in for 2 copies! So, as above except:
-1 umezawa's jitte (love it in the sideboard though
-1 gitaxian probe
Oh yeah Werebear! Forgot about that old gem! I like Vendilion Clique, it's just such an interesting card overall. The one thing I've noticed about Pyromancer in Temur is that your 2-drop is often a later card whereas your dazes, stifles, ponders & stuff usually happen in the first 1-2 turns, leaving you with a smaller hand to go off with pyromancer. With the idea of Hooting Mandrills being the distant second best to Tarmogoyf, here's my latest build:
Also, I realize that with all the duals this isn't exactly a budget deck, but I thought it would be a good avenue to bring up the question: what does Budget Legacy Delver look like? I just included the cards that I actually own
Great suggestions! Yes, Hooting Mandrill is a fine substitute for tarmogoyf, but it too runs counter to mongoose. Maybe an APE theme with kird apes to replace mongooses and 4 mandrills as the graveyard eaters of the deck is in order?? Yes I have been noticing that Grim Lavamancer is worth it in the sideboard, because it really becomes a situation of either mongoose OR grim which is not bad if you need to burn creatures out but IS bad if maindeck. Lately I've changed:
Working my way towards a set of Tarmogoyfs some day, I have wondered, what's the next best thing I can do in the same style? I think Stranglerot Geist is the next best creature, even though it really doesn't approach the loftiness of that ludicrously expensive lhurgoyf in power, it is a hitter with resilience. It can survive almost any spell and it comes in swinging, which is maybe the most important part of attacking for this deck - early threats that whittle the opponent's life total while you disrupt. I also think that is strengthened by 2 maindeck lavamancers. They are counteractive to the goose, but there's often scraps enough for both by the time they happen to occupy the same board. Closest thing this deck has to an 'late game' card. The taiga, which helps to play strangleroot's is also an enabler for kird ape , who has long been a benchwarmer in the dugout for this deck, but is a pretty reasonable extra creature considering Legacy has a tendency to try to kill creatures for 2 damage.
I have gitaxian probes in place of the wastelands i'm missing and i haven't seem to have had too much trouble with mana.
Excellent deduction, such a harsh meta would have to be covered in blue! Almost every deck I play against has at least some blue in it. Carpet of flowers is a great idea.
yeah, i can't do creatures in this one because Oath would fetch out the birds. Lotus petal is a good idea for ramp, but I'm not sure if it's good enough, or how many i would use.
Summoner's Pact is very interesting.. hadn't considered that, thanks for the suggestion!
I know it's hard to fathom from just looking at the decklist, but getting U is really no problem at all. Once you are going off you will find the lotus petals, guaranteed. The tricky part is finding the right build which has good T1 or T2 hands to go off with. If you have too high a desnity of cheery 0 s, you may end up with a lot of hands composed entirely of them. My latest rendition has only reckless bushwhacker for the win with grapeshot and brain freeze in the side. 4 multani's presence also SB in case my opponent wants to put chalice of the void on 0 , as was suggested above.
I play 1 dryad arbor because it fixes land grant when you are going off from a brick into a creature when you need it to keep glimpse rollin', or it can cast you glimpse on T2. Sounds thin, but I have found it to be a good variance-reducer.
Scapegoat is very interesting because when it resolves it ensures your combo will succeed. But in my playtesting with it I found that scapegoat + white mana was too much to ask for when I am combo-ing off.
Endless One > Phyrexian Marauder or Shifting Wall . I am always tinkering with the right balance of 0 -drops, spells, & lands, so I threw him in there just because I was wanting a bit more creatures. Gamble is in there because it's the best 1 CMC tutor when it works, & because - hey - this whole damn deck is a gamble, why not let it ride? It's great fun playing an honest gamble. And then when you have 20 cards in hand it becomes a dishonest gamble for your wincon.
Thanks all for the feedback!
- I prefer brain freeze over grapeshot because by the time you go off with the final spell they are both equally easy to play and have plenty storm count. I just like having a non-damage alternative to attacking with bushwhacker as an alternative wincon.
- I have never really noticed a need for extra mana to make this combo go off - such as can be generated by culling the weak and infernal plunge. The wincons both cost only 2 and you usually have access to 3 or 4 mana by the time you go for the kill.
- Chalice of the Void is indeed a powerful card and a serious threat to this deck. I bring in Mortal Combat as an alternative wincon in those matchups because it does not matter if the creatures are dead. I just let them be countered. It's out of abrupt decay range too. Multani's presence is excellent, and I gave it a lot of consideration. However, I have noticed that the mechanism of this combo is quite specific and there is absolutely no room for non-essential cards. Could be workable from the side though..
I realize that on paper it looks like I would never have enough mana, but I usually find it.
The meta I test against contains:
Storm, Colorless Eldrazi, Lands, D&T, Elves, Miracles, Grixis Delver, MUD, High Tide, Dredge, Leylines, & Infect so I have tried it out against a lot of stuff.
I appreciate your reminding me of some classic Cheeri0s cards, but I am particularly interested to see if anyone knows of some new additions which might benefit this zany old archetype.
4 Crimson Kobolds
4 Crookshank Kobolds
4 Kobolds of Kher Keep
4 Ornithopter
4 Memnite
4 Phyrexian Walker
4 Shield Sphere
4 Street Wraith
1 Endless One
1 Signal Pest
1 Reckless Bushwhacker
Spells 14
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Gamble
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Brain Freeze
1 Noxious Revival
Mana 11
4 Lotus Petal
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
2 Land Grant
1 Taiga
1 Dryad Arbor
~-~-~-~-~
Sideboard (Work in progress)
4 Pact of Negation
Flusterstorm
Ingot Chewer
Xantid Swarm
Mortal Combat
Is it a glass cannon? Yes! But it's the damn finest glass cannon you'll ever see! I know the mana seems very tight, and it is - be warned, this is a deck that may need to mulligan hard & often. Thank God for the Vancouver mull! The premise is simple - so long as you have a mana, a glimpse, & at least 4 0 -drops, you should win 95% of the time if goldfishing. IRL, against a wide variety of Legacy decks, the match-ups are pretty much like you'd imagine: nigh 100% vs. certain decks (like Elves), significantly worse match-ups vs. fair decks with interaction. It's important to remember that even though they have tons of counterspells, you can still catch them by surprise. Naturally, Force of Will is as tough on this deck as it is on belcher; I have toyed with the idea of including my own playset in the side).
All that being said, it is an incredibly fun deck to play, especially as a comic relief in the sometimes too serious Legacy metagame.
Thanks,
Feedback and suggestions are welcome!
it's my opponent's turn, and s/he taps mana to play a spell
AFTER s/he taps mana, but BEFORE the spell comes down
Can I play standstill with flash, such that my opponent has the choice to either play the spell & crack standstill, or the mana stays tapped and they choose not to play it?
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Putrid Imp
4 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 Gurmag Angler
4 Tombstalker
4 Street Wraith
3 Phantasmagorian
2 Circling Vultures
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Gitaxian Probe
Lands (20)
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
8 Swamp
1 Overgrown Tomb
3 Lake of the Dead
I'll preface this by stating that i know that the following is an utter bastardization of two distinct kinds of decks. I am likely to get some criticism for breaking from the tried & true uses of these cards. But I was compelled by the question: what if you didn't go for a big combo win with the dredge tactic, but rather just pre-filled your graveyard for every delve spell you are about to cast?? Admittedly, I do not know much about the dark arts of dredge, but I imagine this to be a deck that would rely heavily on drawing first and discarding troll or imp, a bit like manaless dredge. phantasmo, putrid, & good ol' cabal therapy help. Probes & Wraiths are there to fill the 'yard as usual and to trigger dredges. Lake of the dead is a little aesthetic choice that can ramp up to get you the extra mile for a latter delve creature. Circling vultures is this deck's Delver of Secrets , maybe not the best card but supportable once we get dredging for several turns consecutively. Stick Gurmag Anglers, Tasigur, and Tombstalker in the early game for the win! (i think it must use all of them in order to have enough to reliable 'go off' with, because there's no hope of real card drawing here.
It has disadvantage of being almost completely unreactive, which is much more of a liability for an aggro deck than a true combo deck. But I think with some modification this low cost deck could at least manage to sling 2-3 big delve creatures very quickly, for whatever that's worth. I want to make this as a deck for my wife who wants to play something mono black, but wouldn't want me to spend the money on say, thoughtseizes, dark confidants, entombs, etc. Please, any advice would be quite welcome
That's just your deck. Then you have to think about the meta and anticipate the % chance that you will see a certain % of cards in any of a variety of opponents.
Also, shuffling! How close one's shuffles are to true randomization is hugely variable from person to person, and there's no standardized rules about it! Well, maybe not making rules about it is the closest thing to allowing it to be random, but the funny thing is we often get in habits of doing those motions the same way and can begin to develop a subconscious method of stacking are decks with the same cards based on how we scoop up and how we go about shuffling. I believe that because we build to use our whole deck's diversity, hearty shuffling is actually a skill that can improve one's game.
All good tips, and thanks for linking to the big thread! Yes,
-1 umezawa's jitte (love it in the sideboard though
-1 gitaxian probe
+2 grim lavamancer
WELCOME TO THE MONKEY HOUSE
4 Kird Ape
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Stifle
3 Gitaxian Probe
3 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Forked Bolt
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
2 Submerge
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Rough//Tumble
2 Flusterstorm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Smash to Smithereens
1 Ancient Grudge
-2 Grim Lavamancer
-1 Forked Bolt
+2 Kird Ape
+1 Polluted Delta
because i needed a little more land and b/c kird fills that role of extra pressure that I think belongs in the flex slots.
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Strangleroot Geist
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Forked Bolt
3 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
Working my way towards a set of Tarmogoyfs some day, I have wondered, what's the next best thing I can do in the same style? I think Stranglerot Geist is the next best creature, even though it really doesn't approach the loftiness of that ludicrously expensive lhurgoyf in power, it is a hitter with resilience. It can survive almost any spell and it comes in swinging, which is maybe the most important part of attacking for this deck - early threats that whittle the opponent's life total while you disrupt. I also think that
I have gitaxian probes in place of the wastelands i'm missing and i haven't seem to have had too much trouble with mana.
Any thoughts?
yeah, i can't do creatures in this one because Oath would fetch out the birds. Lotus petal is a good idea for ramp, but I'm not sure if it's good enough, or how many i would use.