Both games were T1 Nettle Sentinel, T2 two elves one of them Heritage Druid into Ezuri, which I pathed. But he followed with another Ezuri in G1 and with Elvish Archdruid in G2 followed by Card of Calling into Ezuri. Basically he had about 50 by T5 the latest in both games. I guess he just had the perfect draw.
Yeah, definitely some nut draws for the Elves deck. I wouldn't worry too much about that. Lots of decks in modern have unbeatable draws. Sometimes they'll just have it.
So I think I took out Mayor, because of their spot removal. He later told me that he cannot beat Rest in Peace. Therefore, I believe it is really good to stop their Snapcaster. In G3 he had 2 Snaps and 3 Bolts in their opener, followed by several additional removal. I drew only 1 Coco but that got a Negate.
I hardly ever board in something like RIP unless it basically shuts down the opposing deck (ie dredge, living end). Otherwise, it just means we have fewer threats they need to answer and/or fewer answers for their threats.
It doesn't have the disruption of the Bant Black list, but it is incredibly difficult to block. It's got menace, trample, flying, attacking tokens, bounce blockers, make blockers ETB tapped etc. If you want to get your aggro on, this is the list for you.
Round 3: Elves (Loss 0:2). This is a terrible matchup. They are just faster. I had 0 chance even with multiple Path to Exile. I think that Eidolon of the Rhetoric or Ethersworn Canonist could help in this matchup, but not a lot.
Interesting. Usually the only card they win with is Ezuri, so I just save my paths for him. Other than that, our creatures completely outclass theirs. What exactly were you losing to in those games?
Round 8: Grixis Delver (Loss 1:2). Very close games. I wasn't able to find Rest in Peace and I was outvalued by a ton of removal and Snapcaster Mage. He wins in the 5th extra turn by topdecking Bolt after Opt (scry down).
What was taken out of the main for RIP? I have found Delver to be a matchup where we really don't want to lose any creature density. RIP isn't that necessary since we can just bounce or kill their delve creatures. And our creatures are too big for them unless they have the perfect flurry of removal in the first couple of turns.
Overall, I think that the deck should go in all Tempo. That means I will test the 5-color version with Mantis Rider and 4 Freebooter main going forward. The sideboard should then have spells like Unified Will to play the tempo game. I also think I need 1-2 Stony Silence and 2 Eidolon of the Rhetoric in the board.
I did not like the Meddling Mages main and I was not a fan of the Sin Collector sideboard plan.
As someone who runs 3x Negate in my Bant Red list, I will say that feeling the need to hold open mana is very much a feel-bad and very much goes against what the deck wants to do. The reason the Sin Collector/Freebooter plan is so promising is the fact that we can be proactive about hitting the spells we care about without having to slow ourselves down to hold mana open. Counters also make it tough to maintain creature density in matchups where we can't side out all of our Paths. What kinds of spells are you looking to hit with counter spells that can't be hit otherwise?
Also, I saw Stony Silence played on camera in a Bant Black humans lists (round 3, game 3) and it was awful for the same reasons I've been saying in this thread. I really don't think it's something I would want to run in one of these lists because the issues that happened in that game are the exact same issues I have seen pop up when other aggressive creature decks try running the card. It's too slow and grinds the deck to a halt and it wasn't even relevant for several turns (even in Affinity, they have plenty of draws that don't care about it). By the time it was relevant, the opponent should have been at least nearly dead if not completely dead. Instead, thanks to how slow the deck was due to the card, the opponent had plenty of time to draw their outs and take over the game. I think that, especially in modern, people get way too caught up in hating out other decks and not enough about keeping their own gameplan intact. As we see in that game, it turns out that just getting the opponent dead is a whole lot better than worrying about them hitting 12 mana and getting a 6/6 Walking Ballista.
- Unclaimed Territory is great, definitely makes the four colours work better than before.
Most definitely. I was skeptical of the card in CoCo lists, but testing has proven it to be a great addition to the mana base. It helps our Burn matchups quite a bit too.
- Kitesail Freebooter merits more testing. There's space in lists for good 2 drops for sure. I only saw mine against Burn, which helped as you can try and plan around what they are going to do, as well as forcing them into using a spell to get their other one back (so it kind of worked like an Arashin Cleric). I imagine grabbing a key card from Scapeshift or Storm feels great with this guy.
I think Freebooter is proving to be a premier card and the main reason to run Black over Red these days. Before him, you can see my old posts about how black was missing a proper 2 drop, whereas Red had Kari Zev and Brawler to go along with its hyper aggressive plan. Black has a disruptive plan and the combo of Freebooter, Sin Collector and Meddling Mage make black the go-to color now imo.
- Anafenza is as I remembered her, something you're always happy to see, and your opponents definitely aren't. I played a friendly game vs. Dredge and it prompted a scoop.
T2 Anafenza against something like Dredge or Living End is quite fun!
- I put Meddling Mages in the side and ran Spell Quellers main. They're definitely a bit weaker in a list with Unclaimed Territory over other lands, but on paper they seem ideal as a disruptive creature in Modern, they form a great 1-2 with Reflector Mage and scare people once they are caught by the first one.
Do you think Spell Queller is necessary when we can run Freebooters and Sin Collectors? What creatures are we trying to hit? I can't think of any that Reflector Mage and Path don't already take care of, outside of something like Etched Champion, but I'm always up for being proven wrong. Also, I think needing separate blue and white mana outside of our Caverns and Territories is potentially rough.
Anyways, I'm not sure who all is watching SCG coverage, but Brandon Decandio was just playing Bant Black humans against Eldrazi Tron. Once again, Stony Silence is boarded in, grinds the deck to a halt without making any impact for several turns, then they falter in the late game. I continue to strongly dislike the card. I feel like this happens with almost every aggressive deck that sides it in. Humans need to get on the board quick and get the opponent dead. Unless the it wins the game on the spot, it's simply not worth it. And Stony Silence often does not win on the spot, even against Affinity. Anybody who wants to run Stony Silence over Kataki because of the Eldrazi Tron matchup, refer to that Game 3 as a perfect example as to why I'm constantly opposed to the idea.
A few other choices were interesting (running only Thalia and Reflector Mage in the main at 3cmc, but adding Thraben Inspector at 1cmc) and I don't think I'm a fan. Zero Anafenza in the 75 from what I understand. There was a Necromancer and a Fiend Hunter in the side, but idk what else. With that and a 3rd Avacyn's Pilgrim, Collected Company becomes quite mediocre.
Thanks for the link! I'm glad to see him pointing out just how good Reflector Mage is. Aside from the core cards (Champ/Lieutenant/Noble), it is the next most important card in the deck. Maybe I'll try a list like his again at some point, but I wasn't having any luck with it the last time I tried. I'm not a fan of combos anyway, especially on MTGO.
I think the version I want to go with is either 5C or the 4 Freebooter, 2 MM, 2 Anafanza, 2 Thalia V2.0 and hopefully somehow 1 Falconer package.
Yeah, I think either one will serve you well. I think if I were playing Saturday, I'd be on the 4 Freebooter Bant Black list mainly for the slightly more stable mana.
I agree that the speed differences aren't major between the Bant Black lists. Whether or not one specific list is faster than the other is arguable; you had more chances at a T1 dork acceleration, which is great, but that also means more chances to "brick" on a Collected Company and/or simply get flooded with dork draws later in the game. None of the 3 drops apply nearly as much pressure as Anafenza either, with the exception being Abzan Falconer with a developed Lieutenant board.
If you see a t3 coco coming you definitely won't play Thalia v1.0 turn two. If you do against certain decks they usually kill it immediately. Yes you can be unlucky and they don't.
You just explained exactly why I don't like Thalia 1.0. The last thing I want is to feel forced to not put pressure on the board because a card I'm running in my own deck hinders my gameplan. Then against the decks where I would want Thalia, all they do is kill it immediately and move on, meaning all she did was provide a minor speed bump. Then in the games where you want it and they don't kill it, you're still often slowing yourself down just as much (if not more) because Company is our best way to finish off a game. I put her in the same bucket as Dark Confidant - looks great on paper, but not in practice. Other decks use them to great effect, but they just don't work here.
Looks solid. I will say that I quite liked the list I was testing last night with narrower stuff like Sin Collector in the sideboard and more generically applicable cards like a 4th Freebooter and Anafenza in the main. Sin Collector could be main deckable depending on the meta though. Anafenza is a much needed clock for the deck, as it can be pretty slow to finish games off games otherwise. I did try several games with a single Abzan Falconer in the main, but every time I drew it I wished it was something else, like a Meddling Mage or Anafenza, the Foremost. It's an awful card without the right board state, especially against decks that can keep the board clean. I plan to keep it relegated to the sideboard for removal-light ground creature matchups.
I've tested just some draws and felt that the deck needs more pressure, maybe bad luck, I don't know, but was weird.
Which version?
Last one.
I'm thinking about to test your SCG list with Unclaimed main and Freebooter board. Looks very solid and Mini Thalia always helped in my LGS.
Are you referring to this? http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=116202 If you're worried about pressure, this is going to be slower than the Bant Black build (Sin Collector and Abzan Falconer) and 3x Mini Thalia is going to slow you down even more. With Freebooter and Sin Collector available, I don't see any reason to run her; in my testing, actually stealing a spell and having hand information has been much better than providing a small speed bump that slows down your own Companies and Paths. It's a solid list, don't get me wrong, but I don't think the reasoning lines up. I would recommend doing more than a few test draws before coming to conclusions; speed has not been a problem in my ~15-20 games with it so far. I'd be curious to know what exactly these types of draws are and why they're not applying enough pressure.
My typical game plays out like:
(note: this isn't including the Champ/Lieutenant/Mayor draws, as those are common to all builds)
T1 Champ/Dork
T2 A) Freebooter (steal their best spell) maybe with another 1 drop
T2 B) 3 drop like Anafenza Thalia or Reflector Mage (bouncing their dork or early creature)
T3 You name it. Collected Company or Meddling Mage whatever I saw in their hand etc etc. Unless I've been drawing blanks, this is where the opponent really gets tested. They lost their best spell early in the game (often a sweeper, removal spell or combo piece), meaning they need a removal for Freebooter which leaves our other big stuff alive that's beating them down for chunks of damage. And this is assuming we don't have another Freebooter or Meddling Mage (or Collector from the side) to protect it and require their draws to be even more specific.
You can also have a play pattern where you use something like Anafenza, Thalia, lord etc to put board pressure down on T2 then use Freebooter on T3 to snipe any answers they may have drawn into.
Aside from the very aggressive Bant Red Mantis Rider list, this deck puts on some of the fastest pressure of all the lists I've tested. The trick is that it isn't pressure from just a power on board perspective, it's pressure from multiple angles as we're able to interact with their hand and sculpt our gameplan around it. That is a very valuable form of pressure not to be overlooked.
I like the Thalia's, however I don't know if I want Meddling Mage over Sin Collector against the field. I believe that if you cut disruption like Sin Collector you have to optimize for maximum speed, in which case I think Mantis Rider is the way to go. Anyway I would probably cut one Anafenza for a Abzan Falconer if you stick to that build.
The point of this build is to try to keep mana requirements a little more sane, so Mantis Rider doesn't apply here. Anafenza is by far the best clock available in these colors, so I'd want to stick with it. As for Meddling Mage, I could see cutting one of those for an Abzan Falconer, but with a full playset of Kitesail Freebooter, Mage seems at its best here. There's certainly some flexibility in those slots, though. But as I said a few posts ago, it's really a power level vs mana stability tug of war. 5C is the best overall power level, but the most susceptible to mana issues. I think 4C might be the sweet spot since we're not giving up *that* much power, but we'll see. I'll be continuing to try both on MTGO
I love Xathrid Necromancer but it never did enough for me during testing. The deck has issues breaking through on the ground and Necromancer doesn't help that. I think the wealth of other, better options at 3 cmc push it out.
The problem with Glory-Bound Initiate is that it has to live a turn, not block anything, then attack and be tapped for 2 turns in order to hopefully gain some life and not get hit by Skullcrack. That's ultra bad/risky against burn. You want to gain life ASAP and start blocking. However, it's probably a solid aggro 2 drop option, I just wouldn't use a matchup like burn to justify it. I'd like it in matchups that end up being damage races or where I need to punch through big blockers. I bet it performed well against the Jeskai Delver deck.
I like it!
Still not confident with Mantis Rider without tests. So 4 colors is the way for a while, and man, I love Thalias!
Red cards in the board isn't a little risk without red shock?
With 2 Thalias in the main, maybe we can cut afford to cut the Falconers for an extra Arashin Cleric and a red shock.
Thanks for the write up! I love seeing the variety and versatility of these Humans decks.
Anyways, on my drive into work this morning, I got to thinking about my testing with 5C last night - what things I liked, what I didn't like etc. I really liked the 4th Kitesail Freebooter in the main. I liked not having dead Sin Collectors in the main yet still having it available in the side. I liked having Thalia, Heretic Cathar to help against blockers and occasionally slow down mana. On the downside, while the mana worked and was overall stable and Mantis Rider is a beast, I would like to cut down on color requirements where possible. So with all of that said, I started to try working out in my head how I could apply these learnings to a more refined list. Here's what I'm thinking:
This way we don't have dead cards main and we can still side into the more hateful version side board. Thalia helps us against chump blockers that prove to be a pain. Thoughts?
I really like the new mantis rider 5c list. Which match ups did you face in these 8 games? More creature or more combo? Do you think this list can race valakut without disruption? Don't we really want a 7th mana dork?;)
I faced Affinity, Esper Control, Mono White humans and a UW Control brew running Search for Azcanta. I went 2-0 in all the rounds. As for the 7th dork, this list actually runs 1 less 3 drop than usual in order to make room for the 4th Kitesail Freebooter, so it may be *slightly* less necessary. Feel free to give it a shot, though!
I imagine Mantis Rider definitely makes the race easier, but you'll want to hope for some timely Freebooter hits as well.
Definitely will try this last configuration but with 7 dorks.
Side Will be -1 Kataki -1 Arashin + 2 Big Thalia I guess (against Eldrazi and stuff).
The mana base still scares me, Eldrazi Tron, RG Ponza and UW Control can ruin my colors and they are in my LGS.
:/
I'm not sure I'd add an extra mana dork at the expense of having a heavy hitter for Affinity and Lantern. We're already golden against Bant Eldrazi with Mantis Rider and Reflector Mage. If anything, I'd probably shave the 2nd Meddling Mage. As for the mana base, we're 4-5C, so that's always going to be a concern. Just get a lot of reps in and pay super close attention to what you're fetching and when; when I first started playing these decks, I screwed myself on mana far more often than the opponent did haha. Hopefully Freebooter can hold off some of the land destruction spells long enough to get set up. If/when mana base stability is a more major concern, I'd recommend making the list straight Bant with *maybe* a tiny red or black splash. Here's a super rough idea of what that would look like:
Unfortunately I don't have time to really flesh it out right now, but it should give you an idea of what I'm thinking. The 2 drop slot will suffer from the lack of a core red or black color splash and I'm not sure what the right 2 drop configuration looks like here, but that's the price of having more stable mana requirements. It really comes down to how much pure power level you want vs how much mana stability you want. We have viable 3, 3.5, 4 and 5 color options and I don't think we have a clear indication yet on which is the optimal version.
Hmm these cards are good but not amazing. As has been mentioned before in this thread it's probably better to stick low to the ground without Coco and go more aggro.
Ok I convinced myself while writing this that a non fetch-shock manabase is probably not the way. Coco is one of the most powerful cards in the format so not playing it is most likely a misstake anyway.
Still posting this to show you my thought process. If in the future an overpowered 4cmc human gets printed, it might be worth exploring this manabase.
It's still an informative post, and definitely something I've mulled around for a while. Collected Company is just too good, at the moment. However, something I haven't really discussed since the initial spoiler for Unclaimed Territory is that it's finally much easier and painless to run some 3+ color aggro. I'm finally able to run Bloodsoaked Champion, Boros Elite, Warden of the First Tree etc in the same deck! It's fun to play when I'm not feeling like thinking much. My current "for fun" list:
Anyway, I hope we can find a way to play mantis rider alongside black hand disruption humans because I agree that would be the best of both worlds.
Agreed. I think it comes down to fully optimizing the mana, from both a creature color requirement standpoint and the manabase itself. If we can make it solid, we're golden.
I just don't know how bad the Bant 5color list is against Valakut, Storm and other Combo decks. I feel that the disruptive version is better, slightly slower but could still almost race the other creature aggro decks (or we have to improve the SB a bit for those).
Yeah, I dedicated plenty of sideboard slots for those matchups, basically being able to make the deck into the Bant Black disruption deck when we need it.
I really like your 5C list with 4 Freebooter @kingcars. I am just still not sure if we want MM over Sin Collector but I guess yes since otherwise we would have too many 3 drops.
Yeah, I think it's a mana curve thing, and with 4 Freebooters main, we should be able to set up MM pretty well.
How do you guys feel against Bant Eldrazi and RG Ponza with the disruptive list?
Bant Eldrazi is almost full creatures and go big very fast.
RG Ponza with Blood Moon and LD can be so annoying, they can ramp big creatures very fast and tons of mass removals (damn Bonfire), also Stormbreath is a monster against humans.
Bant Eldrazi is definitely a matchup that is weaker for the Bant Black deck as opposed to the Bant Red deck. Bant Red crushes Eldrazi, while the Bant Black deck would struggle at least in mainboard configuration. Abzan Falconer out of the side would be very annoying for them. However, 4x Reflector Mage is always a huge against them, so it's never going to be *that* bad of a matchup.
As for Ponza, the Bant Black deck has more answers for Blood Moon thanks to Kitesail Freebooter, which conveniently also gives us our first legit way to block a Stormbreath Dragon. I didn't even realize that till right now...
Either way, without having played the matchup, I'd say that you'd want some disruption and way to kill them before they get out from under it. (this is where Mantis Rider or Anafenza, the Foremost come in.
I think that Mantis Rider is weird here, he turns the mana base in a pain house. It's a great card, but is that enough power to risk?
Mantis Rider is most certainly worth testing. After playing with the Bant Black list for a few days, dropping a Mantis Rider on T2 felt incredibly powerful and reminded me just how good of a card it is. There are plenty of games where haste and flying basically mean that you have a Lighting Bolt to surprise kill your opponent with after they think they've pulled back ahead with a sweeper. It pressures planeswalkers very effectively, which is something the Bant Black deck struggles with. It's very big game. The question right now is whether or not we can make the mana work. My current gameplan is to make Mantis Rider the only red card in the main, which should help alleviate tension. We'll see how it goes. I'm liking the results so far.
Also, Mini Thalia is bad for Company/Path, but she puts a lot of pressure in the battlefield, almost always eat a removal saving your creatures and slowing your opponent.
The biggest problem with Thalia, Guardian of Thraben is that there are other cards we can run that do the same things she does, but better, and without slowing us down. Voltaic Brawler and Kari Zev, Skyship Raider put much more pressure on the battlefield, are much more difficult to block, and similarly act as lighting rods for removal. Kitesail Freebooter, Sin Collector and Kambal, Consul of Allocation actually steal spells and punish the opponent for casting spells. Thalia isn't even that great against Storm, which has plenty of ways to nullify or even "pull ahead" of her effect with how many cost reducers they run. When I ran her, even when she was slowing my opponent down, she was slowing me down just as much. I'd rather play creatures that hate out the same stuff and don't slow me down.
Big Thalia otherside is strong too, I'm using 2 copies in my Bant Company and GW Hatebears, she won me lots of matches, even against RG Ponza with their fetchs and haste dragons, also a nightmare against Eldrazis.
I definitely like Big Thalia as an "auxiliary" 3 drop. She slows down/nullifies a lot of things - Nahiri/Emmy combo, Ghost Quarter recursion, opposing Collected Companies/Aether Vials, token generators, haste creatures, you name it.
EDIT:
Just wanted to update after a few games of testing a 5C build. First, here's the list:
The first big question was the mana. Fortunately, it appears that the mana base is stable. I played a total of 8 games (small sample size, I know, but 8 games is enough to at least have a general yay or nay sense of things) and did not encounter any major self-inflicted colored mana issues. However, the deck is weak to well-timed mana disruption like a Ghost Quarter or Spreading Seas, but if you're going to play a 4 or 5 color deck, that's always going to be a thing. All in all, I'd say we're doing as well as can be expected on the mana side of things. Mantis Rider was consistently castable, even when following up Freebooter.
I could go on and on about Mantis Rider, Freebooter, Meddling Mage etc. But we all know what these creatures do and they do it very well. The big win here is the fact that sideboard contains the narrower side our disruption package, meaning that we can fully sideboard into being the Bant Black list when it's needed without having to worry about dead Sin Collectors in Game 1. I would certainly recommend testing this list and seeing how it works; it's right up there with the others.
Quote from polymorpher »
@kingcars: you gave a lot of arguments for my opinion that we need 7 mana dorks instead of 6.
Haha that's fair. There are a lot of things to like about a T1 dork, so I can see an argument for running a 7th. I just don't like to draw too many or hit too many off of Collected Company, so 6 has been the sweet spot for me.
That is fair. You have much more experience with both lists. Which do you prefer for an open event like SCG Charlotte? Red with Mantis or the MM list?
I think that we should run 1 Abzan Falconer in the MM list main.
I'm honestly not 100% sure. My gut says that the Freebooter/MM/Sin Collector list is going to be better against the general meta since it has very good matchups with most of the popular decks, but I think if we can have a stable list that can utilize that alongside a fast clock like Mantis Rider, we could have the best of both worlds. Considering my testing yesterday, maybe something like this:
I was running Voltaic Brawler but the requirements were proving difficult to match up on curve alongside cards like Freebooter. With this build, the only red we need to worry about in the main is for Mantis Rider and we have a full 4 Kitesail Freebooter to provide information for Meddling Mage. For a more aggressive slant, Kari Zev, Skyship Raider could possibly replace Mage and doesn't have strict color requirements. If we want more disruption in the main, Thalia 2.0 and Sin Collector could be swapped. Of course, I have yet to test this, but plan to this evening. Maybe I'll boot up the twitch stream for a bit and do some testing.
All in all, I see 3 options. Go super fast and aggressive with a Bant Red Brawler/Zari Zev/Mantis Rider build, go disruptive with a Freebooter/Meddling Mage/Sin Collector build, or try to find a 5 color list that can do both. The Bant Red build runs Negate and Meddling Mage in the side for the matchups that Bant Black excels at, Bant Black sides in something like Abzan Falconer for mathcups that Bant Red excels at, and 5 Color....profits? idk yet haha
Yeah, definitely some nut draws for the Elves deck. I wouldn't worry too much about that. Lots of decks in modern have unbeatable draws. Sometimes they'll just have it.
I hardly ever board in something like RIP unless it basically shuts down the opposing deck (ie dredge, living end). Otherwise, it just means we have fewer threats they need to answer and/or fewer answers for their threats.
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Avacyn's Pilgrim
3 Voltaic Brawler
2 Kari Zev, Skyship Raider
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
2 Mayor of Avabruck
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Reflector Mage
4 Mantis Rider
Spells (8)
4 Collected Company
4 Path to Exile
1 Breeding Pool
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Unclaimed Territory
3 Windswept Heath
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Stomping Ground
1 Island
2 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Temple Garden
1 Plains
3 Arashin Cleric
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Kataki, War's Wage
3 Negate
2 Rest in Peace
2 Vithian Renegades
3 Meddling Mage
It doesn't have the disruption of the Bant Black list, but it is incredibly difficult to block. It's got menace, trample, flying, attacking tokens, bounce blockers, make blockers ETB tapped etc. If you want to get your aggro on, this is the list for you.
My current Bant Black list:
4 Champion of the Parish
2 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Mayor of Avabruck
4 Kitesail Freebooter
2 Meddling Mage
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Reflector Mage
3 Anafenza, the Foremost
Spells (8)
4 Collected Company
4 Path to Exile
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Unclaimed Territory
3 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Breeding Pool
1 Island
1 Temple Garden
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Godless Shrine
2 Vithian Renegades
2 Rest in Peace
1 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Izzet Staticaster
3 Arashin Cleric
3 Sin Collector
1 Sacred Foundry
Not much has changed for the past few days. This is my current preferred list and it runs like a dream.
Interesting. Usually the only card they win with is Ezuri, so I just save my paths for him. Other than that, our creatures completely outclass theirs. What exactly were you losing to in those games?
What was taken out of the main for RIP? I have found Delver to be a matchup where we really don't want to lose any creature density. RIP isn't that necessary since we can just bounce or kill their delve creatures. And our creatures are too big for them unless they have the perfect flurry of removal in the first couple of turns.
As someone who runs 3x Negate in my Bant Red list, I will say that feeling the need to hold open mana is very much a feel-bad and very much goes against what the deck wants to do. The reason the Sin Collector/Freebooter plan is so promising is the fact that we can be proactive about hitting the spells we care about without having to slow ourselves down to hold mana open. Counters also make it tough to maintain creature density in matchups where we can't side out all of our Paths. What kinds of spells are you looking to hit with counter spells that can't be hit otherwise?
Also, I saw Stony Silence played on camera in a Bant Black humans lists (round 3, game 3) and it was awful for the same reasons I've been saying in this thread. I really don't think it's something I would want to run in one of these lists because the issues that happened in that game are the exact same issues I have seen pop up when other aggressive creature decks try running the card. It's too slow and grinds the deck to a halt and it wasn't even relevant for several turns (even in Affinity, they have plenty of draws that don't care about it). By the time it was relevant, the opponent should have been at least nearly dead if not completely dead. Instead, thanks to how slow the deck was due to the card, the opponent had plenty of time to draw their outs and take over the game. I think that, especially in modern, people get way too caught up in hating out other decks and not enough about keeping their own gameplan intact. As we see in that game, it turns out that just getting the opponent dead is a whole lot better than worrying about them hitting 12 mana and getting a 6/6 Walking Ballista.
Glad to see the deck continuing to put up results. I definitely think we've got ourselves a contender here
Most definitely. I was skeptical of the card in CoCo lists, but testing has proven it to be a great addition to the mana base. It helps our Burn matchups quite a bit too.
I think Freebooter is proving to be a premier card and the main reason to run Black over Red these days. Before him, you can see my old posts about how black was missing a proper 2 drop, whereas Red had Kari Zev and Brawler to go along with its hyper aggressive plan. Black has a disruptive plan and the combo of Freebooter, Sin Collector and Meddling Mage make black the go-to color now imo.
T2 Anafenza against something like Dredge or Living End is quite fun!
Do you think Spell Queller is necessary when we can run Freebooters and Sin Collectors? What creatures are we trying to hit? I can't think of any that Reflector Mage and Path don't already take care of, outside of something like Etched Champion, but I'm always up for being proven wrong. Also, I think needing separate blue and white mana outside of our Caverns and Territories is potentially rough.
Anyways, I'm not sure who all is watching SCG coverage, but Brandon Decandio was just playing Bant Black humans against Eldrazi Tron. Once again, Stony Silence is boarded in, grinds the deck to a halt without making any impact for several turns, then they falter in the late game. I continue to strongly dislike the card. I feel like this happens with almost every aggressive deck that sides it in. Humans need to get on the board quick and get the opponent dead. Unless the it wins the game on the spot, it's simply not worth it. And Stony Silence often does not win on the spot, even against Affinity. Anybody who wants to run Stony Silence over Kataki because of the Eldrazi Tron matchup, refer to that Game 3 as a perfect example as to why I'm constantly opposed to the idea.
A few other choices were interesting (running only Thalia and Reflector Mage in the main at 3cmc, but adding Thraben Inspector at 1cmc) and I don't think I'm a fan. Zero Anafenza in the 75 from what I understand. There was a Necromancer and a Fiend Hunter in the side, but idk what else. With that and a 3rd Avacyn's Pilgrim, Collected Company becomes quite mediocre.
Yeah, I think either one will serve you well. I think if I were playing Saturday, I'd be on the 4 Freebooter Bant Black list mainly for the slightly more stable mana.
You just explained exactly why I don't like Thalia 1.0. The last thing I want is to feel forced to not put pressure on the board because a card I'm running in my own deck hinders my gameplan. Then against the decks where I would want Thalia, all they do is kill it immediately and move on, meaning all she did was provide a minor speed bump. Then in the games where you want it and they don't kill it, you're still often slowing yourself down just as much (if not more) because Company is our best way to finish off a game. I put her in the same bucket as Dark Confidant - looks great on paper, but not in practice. Other decks use them to great effect, but they just don't work here.
Are you referring to this? http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=116202 If you're worried about pressure, this is going to be slower than the Bant Black build (Sin Collector and Abzan Falconer) and 3x Mini Thalia is going to slow you down even more. With Freebooter and Sin Collector available, I don't see any reason to run her; in my testing, actually stealing a spell and having hand information has been much better than providing a small speed bump that slows down your own Companies and Paths. It's a solid list, don't get me wrong, but I don't think the reasoning lines up. I would recommend doing more than a few test draws before coming to conclusions; speed has not been a problem in my ~15-20 games with it so far. I'd be curious to know what exactly these types of draws are and why they're not applying enough pressure.
My typical game plays out like:
(note: this isn't including the Champ/Lieutenant/Mayor draws, as those are common to all builds)
T1 Champ/Dork
T2 A) Freebooter (steal their best spell) maybe with another 1 drop
T2 B) 3 drop like Anafenza Thalia or Reflector Mage (bouncing their dork or early creature)
T3 You name it. Collected Company or Meddling Mage whatever I saw in their hand etc etc. Unless I've been drawing blanks, this is where the opponent really gets tested. They lost their best spell early in the game (often a sweeper, removal spell or combo piece), meaning they need a removal for Freebooter which leaves our other big stuff alive that's beating them down for chunks of damage. And this is assuming we don't have another Freebooter or Meddling Mage (or Collector from the side) to protect it and require their draws to be even more specific.
You can also have a play pattern where you use something like Anafenza, Thalia, lord etc to put board pressure down on T2 then use Freebooter on T3 to snipe any answers they may have drawn into.
Aside from the very aggressive Bant Red Mantis Rider list, this deck puts on some of the fastest pressure of all the lists I've tested. The trick is that it isn't pressure from just a power on board perspective, it's pressure from multiple angles as we're able to interact with their hand and sculpt our gameplan around it. That is a very valuable form of pressure not to be overlooked.
The point of this build is to try to keep mana requirements a little more sane, so Mantis Rider doesn't apply here. Anafenza is by far the best clock available in these colors, so I'd want to stick with it. As for Meddling Mage, I could see cutting one of those for an Abzan Falconer, but with a full playset of Kitesail Freebooter, Mage seems at its best here. There's certainly some flexibility in those slots, though. But as I said a few posts ago, it's really a power level vs mana stability tug of war. 5C is the best overall power level, but the most susceptible to mana issues. I think 4C might be the sweet spot since we're not giving up *that* much power, but we'll see. I'll be continuing to try both on MTGO
I love Xathrid Necromancer but it never did enough for me during testing. The deck has issues breaking through on the ground and Necromancer doesn't help that. I think the wealth of other, better options at 3 cmc push it out.
The problem with Glory-Bound Initiate is that it has to live a turn, not block anything, then attack and be tapped for 2 turns in order to hopefully gain some life and not get hit by Skullcrack. That's ultra bad/risky against burn. You want to gain life ASAP and start blocking. However, it's probably a solid aggro 2 drop option, I just wouldn't use a matchup like burn to justify it. I'd like it in matchups that end up being damage races or where I need to punch through big blockers. I bet it performed well against the Jeskai Delver deck.
And yes, Tireless Tracker was too slow in my testing. You'd probably want it in a grindier build with stuff like Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, Eternal Witness and Duskwatch Recruiter, but those builds seem too slow overall.
With 2 Thalias in the main, maybe we can cut afford to cut the Falconers for an extra Arashin Cleric and a red shock.
Anyways, on my drive into work this morning, I got to thinking about my testing with 5C last night - what things I liked, what I didn't like etc. I really liked the 4th Kitesail Freebooter in the main. I liked not having dead Sin Collectors in the main yet still having it available in the side. I liked having Thalia, Heretic Cathar to help against blockers and occasionally slow down mana. On the downside, while the mana worked and was overall stable and Mantis Rider is a beast, I would like to cut down on color requirements where possible. So with all of that said, I started to try working out in my head how I could apply these learnings to a more refined list. Here's what I'm thinking:
4 Champion of the Parish
2 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Mayor of Avabruck
4 Kitesail Freebooter
2 Meddling Mage
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Reflector Mage
3 Anafenza, the Foremost
Spells (8)
4 Collected Company
4 Path to Exile
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Unclaimed Territory
3 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Breeding Pool
1 Island
1 Temple Garden
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Godless Shrine
2 Vithian Renegades
2 Rest in Peace
1 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Abzan Falconer
2 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 Arashin Cleric
3 Sin Collector
Changes:
-3 Sin Collector, +2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar +1 Kitesail Freebooter in the main.
-1 Sacred Foundry -1 Kataki, War's Wage -1 Kitesail Freebooter +3 Sin Collector in the side
This way we don't have dead cards main and we can still side into the more hateful version side board. Thalia helps us against chump blockers that prove to be a pain. Thoughts?
I faced Affinity, Esper Control, Mono White humans and a UW Control brew running Search for Azcanta. I went 2-0 in all the rounds. As for the 7th dork, this list actually runs 1 less 3 drop than usual in order to make room for the 4th Kitesail Freebooter, so it may be *slightly* less necessary. Feel free to give it a shot, though!
I imagine Mantis Rider definitely makes the race easier, but you'll want to hope for some timely Freebooter hits as well.
I'm not sure I'd add an extra mana dork at the expense of having a heavy hitter for Affinity and Lantern. We're already golden against Bant Eldrazi with Mantis Rider and Reflector Mage. If anything, I'd probably shave the 2nd Meddling Mage. As for the mana base, we're 4-5C, so that's always going to be a concern. Just get a lot of reps in and pay super close attention to what you're fetching and when; when I first started playing these decks, I screwed myself on mana far more often than the opponent did haha. Hopefully Freebooter can hold off some of the land destruction spells long enough to get set up. If/when mana base stability is a more major concern, I'd recommend making the list straight Bant with *maybe* a tiny red or black splash. Here's a super rough idea of what that would look like:
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Duskwatch Recruiter
2 Mayor of Avabruck
2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Reflector Mage
4 Mantis Rider
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Collected Company
4 Path to Exile
1 Stomping Ground
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Island
4 Unclaimed Territory
1 Forest
1 Temple Garden
1 Breeding Pool
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Windswept Heath
1 Plains
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Arashin Cleric
4 Negate
1 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Meddling Mage
2 Rest in Peace
2 Vithian Renegades
1 Izzet Staticaster
Unfortunately I don't have time to really flesh it out right now, but it should give you an idea of what I'm thinking. The 2 drop slot will suffer from the lack of a core red or black color splash and I'm not sure what the right 2 drop configuration looks like here, but that's the price of having more stable mana requirements. It really comes down to how much pure power level you want vs how much mana stability you want. We have viable 3, 3.5, 4 and 5 color options and I don't think we have a clear indication yet on which is the optimal version.
It's still an informative post, and definitely something I've mulled around for a while. Collected Company is just too good, at the moment. However, something I haven't really discussed since the initial spoiler for Unclaimed Territory is that it's finally much easier and painless to run some 3+ color aggro. I'm finally able to run Bloodsoaked Champion, Boros Elite, Warden of the First Tree etc in the same deck! It's fun to play when I'm not feeling like thinking much. My current "for fun" list:
3 Boros Elite
4 Thraben Inspector
3 Kytheon, Hero of Akros
4 Warden of the First Tree
4 Champion of the Parish
3 Bloodsoaked Champion
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
2 Kitesail Freebooter
4 Mayor of Avabruck
Spells (10)
2 Blossoming Defense
4 Gather the Townsfolk
4 Path to Exile
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Unclaimed Territory
2 Windswept Heath
1 Godless Shrine
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Temple Garden
2 Kataki, War's Wage
2 War Priest of Thune
2 Rest in Peace
3 Arashin Cleric
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Kitesail Freebooter
2 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
Agreed. I think it comes down to fully optimizing the mana, from both a creature color requirement standpoint and the manabase itself. If we can make it solid, we're golden.
Yeah, I dedicated plenty of sideboard slots for those matchups, basically being able to make the deck into the Bant Black disruption deck when we need it.
Yeah, I think it's a mana curve thing, and with 4 Freebooters main, we should be able to set up MM pretty well.
Bant Eldrazi is definitely a matchup that is weaker for the Bant Black deck as opposed to the Bant Red deck. Bant Red crushes Eldrazi, while the Bant Black deck would struggle at least in mainboard configuration. Abzan Falconer out of the side would be very annoying for them. However, 4x Reflector Mage is always a huge against them, so it's never going to be *that* bad of a matchup.
As for Ponza, the Bant Black deck has more answers for Blood Moon thanks to Kitesail Freebooter, which conveniently also gives us our first legit way to block a Stormbreath Dragon. I didn't even realize that till right now...
Either way, without having played the matchup, I'd say that you'd want some disruption and way to kill them before they get out from under it. (this is where Mantis Rider or Anafenza, the Foremost come in.
Mantis Rider is most certainly worth testing. After playing with the Bant Black list for a few days, dropping a Mantis Rider on T2 felt incredibly powerful and reminded me just how good of a card it is. There are plenty of games where haste and flying basically mean that you have a Lighting Bolt to surprise kill your opponent with after they think they've pulled back ahead with a sweeper. It pressures planeswalkers very effectively, which is something the Bant Black deck struggles with. It's very big game. The question right now is whether or not we can make the mana work. My current gameplan is to make Mantis Rider the only red card in the main, which should help alleviate tension. We'll see how it goes. I'm liking the results so far.
The biggest problem with Thalia, Guardian of Thraben is that there are other cards we can run that do the same things she does, but better, and without slowing us down. Voltaic Brawler and Kari Zev, Skyship Raider put much more pressure on the battlefield, are much more difficult to block, and similarly act as lighting rods for removal. Kitesail Freebooter, Sin Collector and Kambal, Consul of Allocation actually steal spells and punish the opponent for casting spells. Thalia isn't even that great against Storm, which has plenty of ways to nullify or even "pull ahead" of her effect with how many cost reducers they run. When I ran her, even when she was slowing my opponent down, she was slowing me down just as much. I'd rather play creatures that hate out the same stuff and don't slow me down.
I definitely like Big Thalia as an "auxiliary" 3 drop. She slows down/nullifies a lot of things - Nahiri/Emmy combo, Ghost Quarter recursion, opposing Collected Companies/Aether Vials, token generators, haste creatures, you name it.
EDIT:
Just wanted to update after a few games of testing a 5C build. First, here's the list:
4 Champion of the Parish
2 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Mayor of Avabruck
2 Meddling Mage
4 Kitesail Freebooter
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Reflector Mage
4 Mantis Rider
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
Spells (8)
4 Collected Company
4 Path to Exile
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Unclaimed Territory
3 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Breeding Pool
1 Island
1 Temple Garden
1 Stomping Ground
1 Godless Shrine
2 Vithian Renegades
2 Rest in Peace
1 Kataki, War's Wage
3 Sin Collector
2 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Izzet Staticaster
4 Arashin Cleric
The first big question was the mana. Fortunately, it appears that the mana base is stable. I played a total of 8 games (small sample size, I know, but 8 games is enough to at least have a general yay or nay sense of things) and did not encounter any major self-inflicted colored mana issues. However, the deck is weak to well-timed mana disruption like a Ghost Quarter or Spreading Seas, but if you're going to play a 4 or 5 color deck, that's always going to be a thing. All in all, I'd say we're doing as well as can be expected on the mana side of things. Mantis Rider was consistently castable, even when following up Freebooter.
I could go on and on about Mantis Rider, Freebooter, Meddling Mage etc. But we all know what these creatures do and they do it very well. The big win here is the fact that sideboard contains the narrower side our disruption package, meaning that we can fully sideboard into being the Bant Black list when it's needed without having to worry about dead Sin Collectors in Game 1. I would certainly recommend testing this list and seeing how it works; it's right up there with the others.
I'm honestly not 100% sure. My gut says that the Freebooter/MM/Sin Collector list is going to be better against the general meta since it has very good matchups with most of the popular decks, but I think if we can have a stable list that can utilize that alongside a fast clock like Mantis Rider, we could have the best of both worlds. Considering my testing yesterday, maybe something like this:
4 Champion of the Parish
2 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Mayor of Avabruck
2 Meddling Mage
4 Kitesail Freebooter
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Reflector Mage
4 Mantis Rider
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
Spells (8)
4 Collected Company
4 Path to Exile
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Unclaimed Territory
3 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Breeding Pool
1 Island
1 Temple Garden
1 Stomping Ground
1 Godless Shrine
2 Vithian Renegades
2 Rest in Peace
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
3 Sin Collector
2 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Izzet Staticaster
3 Arashin Cleric
I was running Voltaic Brawler but the requirements were proving difficult to match up on curve alongside cards like Freebooter. With this build, the only red we need to worry about in the main is for Mantis Rider and we have a full 4 Kitesail Freebooter to provide information for Meddling Mage. For a more aggressive slant, Kari Zev, Skyship Raider could possibly replace Mage and doesn't have strict color requirements. If we want more disruption in the main, Thalia 2.0 and Sin Collector could be swapped. Of course, I have yet to test this, but plan to this evening. Maybe I'll boot up the twitch stream for a bit and do some testing.
All in all, I see 3 options. Go super fast and aggressive with a Bant Red Brawler/Zari Zev/Mantis Rider build, go disruptive with a Freebooter/Meddling Mage/Sin Collector build, or try to find a 5 color list that can do both. The Bant Red build runs Negate and Meddling Mage in the side for the matchups that Bant Black excels at, Bant Black sides in something like Abzan Falconer for mathcups that Bant Red excels at, and 5 Color....profits? idk yet haha