I can't stop thinking about what this card might be capable of, and how to twist it? LOL Sunbird's Invocation could be interesting in those decks with a LOT of the same/similar CMC.
I run a deck with Madcap Experiment (into Platypus) with a heap of 4cmc cards like Clever Impersonator, Dack's Duplicate, Stunt Double, Sakashima the Impostor etc. The deck is predominantly 4cmc apart from card draw, the only card above 4cmc is Platypus.
Sunbird here would allow me the chance to get a 2-clone-for-one, but also put Platypus on the bottom of the deck (exactly where I want it to be).
I think you're right, this card does look interesting for a deck builder.
I don't think it's in the same power level as many of the other oppressive cards like Gary, Lurking Predators etc., but it does have a very flexible effect that could blindly slot into a lot of decks as a 1 or 2.
Sunbird's Invocation doesn't discern what type of card we're casting, which for me is a huge advantage.
There's high-cmc with conditional costs or alternative costs to get them into play early, like Blasphemous Act, Avatar of Fury, Bedlam Reveler, Divergent Transformations, Oxidda Golem etc., and that's just in red. Obviously you wouldn't build with these all together, I'm just saying.
....But if you look at artifacts, the affinity mechanic might be useful potentially?
I dunno, I can't help but feel a card like this requires a copious amount of card draw to fuel large combo-style turns where you spew 10 cards in a single turn, provided you have the mana to do it. Could be very swingy....
This set is a bit bland on mechanics for me, considering we have dino's & pirates to play with, let alone the other tribes here.
There are also some very good cards, like Growing Rites of Itlimoc, but I can't afford that!
These cards above play together quite well, and allow you to use the most disgusting targets you might want. I've tried to make Madcap Experiment work with them, but I find the limit that Madcap puts on the deck sort of rules it out.
I don't find the life-loss from Madcap to be trivial at all. It's also more relevant the longer the game runs, as when life levels are getting low you just can't gamble on it saving you unless you know for sure that Platinum Emperion is your target.
I've been running Madcap in Red/Blue. I can't remember exact numbers, but it's something like this.
I mull into Madcap. Some of these choices are obvious, like Brainstorm to get Emperion back on top of the deck.
'Barbs works with Emperion, and Quest is there to repeat Madcap-Emperion as many times as I need.
The rest of the deck is built around either copying Emperion or copying whatever the best threat on the table might be. I've done this on purpose, as Emperion is not that much of a threat on it's own. Given I regularly play larger 4-6+ player games, there's usually something meaty to copy, and even if Madcap cops counter every time the deck still has enough to pack a punch (opponents dependant).
And it looks like they just printed a new version of Tormod's Crypt in the new set, Sentinel Totem.
I think it's unlikely to get much uptake, looks to me to be more a multiplayer kitchen-table choice.
.... in the style of pre-Faithless Looting builds would still be worth playing and probably stronger against hate than manaless.
....
2 Tireless Tribe
A lot of people simply sub out LED's in a typical list for 4x Tireless Tribe. I did it b4 I had the cash for LED's, and it worked just fine. You're right to assume that a flashback'd Faithless Looting is improbable without LED's, but you can raise those odd's by including a single Dakmor Salvage in your list. It's actually not as bad as it looks if you expect to play against a large amount of LD or taxing. All that said, balance here is key - make sure you have enough *black* for Icky.
I agree with Shaboogs too - upping BT & CS to 4, adding a DR to the side are both things I would do. BT on T1 can setup up some bomb plays where you pretty much win on the next turn if they don't have hate to stop you cold.
When you say Manaless isn't as strong against hate, I would argue that Manaless is only weaker due to it being slower.
Both decks essentially fold to the same hate cards, but our opponents' lack the ability to interact with a lot of the plays that Manaless can do.
To be fair to both decks;
The chances of us including anti-hate and resolving it successfully to save our game through counter, discard, LD and/or taxing isn't great. There isn't really a best option, mainly because we will all expect to see differing opponents, but Abrupt Decay, Nature's Claim, Wear // Tear and couple others get a fair bit of love from what I see.
Thanks. And I agree - ritual's are always good with PA.
But bear in mind;
The spark to try PA with WN came from a storm-list I found online which was full of mana-cards together with Dream Salvage & some free mana.
I dumbed it down given our group is a mix of vets to almost-noobs, so the idea of discarding half of everyones' deck in a single turn accompanied with Waste Not, then throwing down a storm card is exactly where I'm going to score another *I'm-the-threat* badge.
Don't want another one....
Here's (a) version I decided not to pursue, with a few tweaks c/o recent suggestions here.
Given the likelihood of this pile decking itself in a MP environment, Shadow of the Grave is probably a safer option than Dream Salvage, but it might be a dead card on occasion if you're hunting for counters on PA? That said, to ensure you don't deck yourself, chucking in a single eldrazi would fix it should it be a concern.
Yeah the mana-base isn't too bad. 22 total for now, numbers could change. I'm unlikely to drop more money on it.
4 Temple of Malice, 4 Sulfurous Springs, 4 Dragonskull Summit, 2 Lavaclaw Reaches, 2 Swamp, 6 Mountain.
Reaches is only in there due to Waste Not potentially creating a lot of mana.
Yep I know I'm guilty of RTFC on occasion.... but not this time Reforge the Soul is the only card above 3cmc, which might be Wheel of Fate if necessary. I own both so whatevers LOL
Thing is, Glacial Chasm answers attacking creature threats as well as Burn etc., it can't be countered, and very few people run LD. Just so we're on the same page, I tested with 22 lands, 2 Timepiece.
Another card I've been thinking about is Worm Harvest. With all the looting, having cards that want to be dropped in the yard is useful.
I need to test this one though, I'm not sure about a full 4 being where I want to be. It's also slow, but this deck will fill the yard with lands pretty easily and Timepiece can leave them in the yard. Worm also works with the black mana from Waste Not and being able to double it with PA will be nice.
Hmmm.... what do you reckon?
Possibly, it's a good idea for sure. Waste Not does create a lot of weenies once it gets going, but does require a bit of luck too.
To be honest, given the draw from WN isn't optional, I'm a little concerned about decking myself before I get to take down anyone, let alone the whole table. You're dead right to raise this thought! Cos I wanna go full stupid here, not pull back and play responsibly!
So I'm thinking the flex slots will be Glacial Chasm and I'll shave the lands down to fit 2-3 Perpetual Timepiece, as Time will help to fuel PA marginally but be there as my *oh crap!* button, and glacial chasm can be relevant at all stages of the game.
Sunbird's Invocation could be interesting in those decks with a LOT of the same/similar CMC.
I run a deck with Madcap Experiment (into Platypus) with a heap of 4cmc cards like Clever Impersonator, Dack's Duplicate, Stunt Double, Sakashima the Impostor etc. The deck is predominantly 4cmc apart from card draw, the only card above 4cmc is Platypus.
Sunbird here would allow me the chance to get a 2-clone-for-one, but also put Platypus on the bottom of the deck (exactly where I want it to be).
I think you're right, this card does look interesting for a deck builder.
I don't think it's in the same power level as many of the other oppressive cards like Gary, Lurking Predators etc., but it does have a very flexible effect that could blindly slot into a lot of decks as a 1 or 2.
There's high-cmc with conditional costs or alternative costs to get them into play early, like Blasphemous Act, Avatar of Fury, Bedlam Reveler, Divergent Transformations, Oxidda Golem etc., and that's just in red. Obviously you wouldn't build with these all together, I'm just saying.
....But if you look at artifacts, the affinity mechanic might be useful potentially?
I dunno, I can't help but feel a card like this requires a copious amount of card draw to fuel large combo-style turns where you spew 10 cards in a single turn, provided you have the mana to do it. Could be very swingy....
I'm assuming a set of Burning Wish etc. to grab whatever you might want in a typical red deck full of mana and looting etc.?
There are also some very good cards, like Growing Rites of Itlimoc, but I can't afford that!
Unclaimed Territory is almost the card I wanted it to be (Cavern of Souls).
Revel in Riches? (Compare with Black Market). I'm gonna pass, I find *I Win!* to be a mood kill.
Dire Fleet Ravager? I wonder if this is going to be more useful in drain decks?
Pirates as a tribe have a few old cards like Rishadan Footpad & Kukemssa Pirates that help this tribe.
Sanctum Seeker, Captivating Crew & Hostage Taker - I'm ordering some of these.
These are the only cards I'm definite on so far, but I haven't digested it all yet.
Mindslicer or Psychosis Crawler perhaps?
Indomitable Creativity
Divergent Transformations
Not of this World
These cards above play together quite well, and allow you to use the most disgusting targets you might want. I've tried to make Madcap Experiment work with them, but I find the limit that Madcap puts on the deck sort of rules it out.
I don't find the life-loss from Madcap to be trivial at all. It's also more relevant the longer the game runs, as when life levels are getting low you just can't gamble on it saving you unless you know for sure that Platinum Emperion is your target.
I've been running Madcap in Red/Blue. I can't remember exact numbers, but it's something like this.
4 Madcap Experiment
4 Platinum Emperion
3 Shapesharer
2 Aura Thief
4 Trade Secrets
2 Rhystic Study
3 Dack's Duplicate
2 Stunt Double
4 Clever Impersonator
2 Rite of replication
1 Fool's Demise
1 Quest for Ancient Secrets
1 Manabarbs
I mull into Madcap. Some of these choices are obvious, like Brainstorm to get Emperion back on top of the deck.
'Barbs works with Emperion, and Quest is there to repeat Madcap-Emperion as many times as I need.
The rest of the deck is built around either copying Emperion or copying whatever the best threat on the table might be. I've done this on purpose, as Emperion is not that much of a threat on it's own. Given I regularly play larger 4-6+ player games, there's usually something meaty to copy, and even if Madcap cops counter every time the deck still has enough to pack a punch (opponents dependant).
Smallpox or Pox perhaps?
If you're a fan of Braids, Anowon, the Ruin Sage for redundancy is a possibility. Lodestone Golem is another cheap option.
If you're sacrificing lands, I'd consider Dakmor Salvage, Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai &/or Dunes of the Dead.
Tangle Wire is always good in Smokestack decks.
Other cards to consider could be Sphere of Resistance, Winter Orb & Static Orb, which are varying levels of bell-end.
Decks like this tend to attract a lot of aggression, I find Sun Droplet is much better than it looks.
Lastly, Noxious Revival might be useful to grab Smokestack, Tanglewire, Braids etc. from the graveyard should you want to use it again.
And it looks like they just printed a new version of Tormod's Crypt in the new set, Sentinel Totem.
I think it's unlikely to get much uptake, looks to me to be more a multiplayer kitchen-table choice.
A lot of people simply sub out LED's in a typical list for 4x Tireless Tribe. I did it b4 I had the cash for LED's, and it worked just fine. You're right to assume that a flashback'd Faithless Looting is improbable without LED's, but you can raise those odd's by including a single Dakmor Salvage in your list. It's actually not as bad as it looks if you expect to play against a large amount of LD or taxing. All that said, balance here is key - make sure you have enough *black* for Icky.
I agree with Shaboogs too - upping BT & CS to 4, adding a DR to the side are both things I would do. BT on T1 can setup up some bomb plays where you pretty much win on the next turn if they don't have hate to stop you cold.
When you say Manaless isn't as strong against hate, I would argue that Manaless is only weaker due to it being slower.
Both decks essentially fold to the same hate cards, but our opponents' lack the ability to interact with a lot of the plays that Manaless can do.
To be fair to both decks;
The chances of us including anti-hate and resolving it successfully to save our game through counter, discard, LD and/or taxing isn't great. There isn't really a best option, mainly because we will all expect to see differing opponents, but Abrupt Decay, Nature's Claim, Wear // Tear and couple others get a fair bit of love from what I see.
But bear in mind;
The spark to try PA with WN came from a storm-list I found online which was full of mana-cards together with Dream Salvage & some free mana.
I dumbed it down given our group is a mix of vets to almost-noobs, so the idea of discarding half of everyones' deck in a single turn accompanied with Waste Not, then throwing down a storm card is exactly where I'm going to score another *I'm-the-threat* badge.
Don't want another one....
Here's (a) version I decided not to pursue, with a few tweaks c/o recent suggestions here.
4 Waste Not
4 Pyromancer Ascension
4 Faithless Looting
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
4 Seething Song
4 Reforge the Soul
4 Dark Deal
4 Dream Salvage
4 Cut // Ribbons
Given the likelihood of this pile decking itself in a MP environment, Shadow of the Grave is probably a safer option than Dream Salvage, but it might be a dead card on occasion if you're hunting for counters on PA? That said, to ensure you don't deck yourself, chucking in a single eldrazi would fix it should it be a concern.
4 Sulfurous Springs
4 Dragonskull Summit
2 Lavaclaw Reaches
2 Swamp
6 Mountain
4 Waste Not
2 Perpetual Timepiece
4 Faithless Looting
4 Cathartic Reunion
4 Burning Inquiry
4 Dark Deal
4 Reforge the Soul
4 FLEX SLOTS
The Flex slots I haven't quite decided on yet. I may end up with a mix of Increasing Vengeance &/or Worm Harvest.
4 Temple of Malice, 4 Sulfurous Springs, 4 Dragonskull Summit, 2 Lavaclaw Reaches, 2 Swamp, 6 Mountain.
Reaches is only in there due to Waste Not potentially creating a lot of mana.
I like the idea of Crypt Incursion. Hmm....
Reforge the Soul is the only card above 3cmc, which might be Wheel of Fate if necessary. I own both so whatevers LOL
Thing is, Glacial Chasm answers attacking creature threats as well as Burn etc., it can't be countered, and very few people run LD. Just so we're on the same page, I tested with 22 lands, 2 Timepiece.
Another card I've been thinking about is Worm Harvest. With all the looting, having cards that want to be dropped in the yard is useful.
I need to test this one though, I'm not sure about a full 4 being where I want to be. It's also slow, but this deck will fill the yard with lands pretty easily and Timepiece can leave them in the yard. Worm also works with the black mana from Waste Not and being able to double it with PA will be nice.
Hmmm.... what do you reckon?
Waste Not does create a lot of weenies once it gets going, but does require a bit of luck too.
To be honest, given the draw from WN isn't optional, I'm a little concerned about decking myself before I get to take down anyone, let alone the whole table. You're dead right to raise this thought! Cos I wanna go full stupid here, not pull back and play responsibly!
So I'm thinking the flex slots will be Glacial Chasm and I'll shave the lands down to fit 2-3 Perpetual Timepiece, as Time will help to fuel PA marginally but be there as my *oh crap!* button, and glacial chasm can be relevant at all stages of the game.