For newer players, remember that you can also hard cast flickerwisp during your main phase to target another flickerwisp, then that wisp reenters at EOT and can target and exile any permanent for the opponents turn. This is an important interaction that I see people miss. You don't always need a vial/displacer/resto to abuse flickerwisp. Often times the best target for wisp is another wisp.
Hey mattingly2323, good to see more results with Monowhite lists! Glad to see my list was a good starting point for you.
I haven't had much time to play online recently. I did finally pick up a playset of Selfless spirit and have tested a little bit. I have been trying the full playset of +4 Selfless Spirit with -2 Niblis, -1 Spellskite and -1 8.5 Tails from the list you posted. In the handful of matches I have tested I have been very impressed with Selfless Spirit. Having such a great defensive and offensive creature in the two mana slot makes all the difference. I have also tried the +2 Thalia HC, -1 Displacer and -1 Resto Angel and have liked her the couples times I have seen her. The best part was her being able to tap down wanna-be big blockers like goyf for that extra turn to allow me to get enough damage in to close games. One game she also made the opponent 4th land come into play tapped, which then allowed me a double Tec Edge the next turn to close out the game. I don't think I'd run more than 1 or 2 of the new Thalia since we have so many options at the 3-drop slot, but she definitely adds another layer of tax and even more redundancy.
@tiago Yah the wayfarer is a non-bo with arbiter out, I generally just fetch up as much GQ/Tec Edge as I can then lay down the arbiter/mindcensor when I need to start making a move.
@nonbomb The only blue in the deck is spellskite's activation, wayfarer also can help search it out. The coast is in there just to negate the life loss of spellskite, while maintaining a turn 1 white drop play. Out of glacial fortress, fountain and coast, the coast is the only one that fits the bill(negating life loss and fast land).
THC is good, but legacy is a different format, even wing mare has seen play as a 4 of. But modern is a bolt heavy field, if it wasn't, things like revoker,wingmare and THC would indeed be very good, but since there are so many one mana removal spells it's a huge loss of tempo. Imo splicer hedge's bets and taxes opponents removal/gives us huge potential card advantage, which I feel is better.
yes, but it seems like the actual percentage of drawing the coast on t1-3 is pretty low, and that's why I was thinking that fortress or fountain might be more appropriate for its function since i guess that most of the time you would want it to enter untapped, and probably later in game as well, in which case i would probably go for the fortress. I'm not a huge fan of the one of fastlands, so might just be my biased opinion.
If you haven't tried thc yet, give it a go, she's much stronger than at first glance, staple esc for the deck in my opinion. Happy to see you putting up some results!
A couple other things to keep in mind: hallowed fountain is an island. In general I try to stay away from islands because I don't want to help merfolk any more than I have to. However, fountain is also a plains, which means you can GQ a flagstones and search for it and a basic plains.
Last thing I will say because it is derailing discussion on a better subject
Ok, that is quite the post for your final word on the subject, but I will reply since I think it is important for new players to know that blade splicer is an excellent option for D&T.
Jund won't care about a 3/3 SOMETIMES First striking blocker
Don't forget the 1/1 you get as well. If Jund doesn't care about a 3/3, then it also doesn't care about a 3/3 land or a 3/2 finks. So this comment is irrelevant.
it can't attack into a goyf and it can't block raging ravine
Neither can finks or 3/3 lands (unless you have blinkmoths with evasion. Also who cares about raging ravine when we run 4 ghost quarters and 2-4 tec edges
however, if you have multiple first strikers (you are probably winning anyways
Yep. And how do I get those multiple first strikers? with blade splicer!
getting blown out is definitely something that will happen.
It can happen, but usually only with sloppy play. You can also get blown out with wall of resurgence and your lands get terminated, bolted, etc.
Saying this as a pilot of this deck for 3 years now, I can say I've played it, I keep playing it and trying to make it work.
And I can say it as a pilot of the deck for over 4 years, I have made it work, as have many many winning deck lists. So... yeah
However it was nearly always the first card I would cut in most matches vs Jund, the reason being that it cant alone deal with Goyf/Tasigur/gurglar/Kalitas/Raging Ravine
Finks doesn't do ANY better than splicer vs those creatures. Wall can block them, but the 3/3 land can't do crap unless you put it on a blinkmoth nexus, and you better have mana up to animate before it gets bolted. Also, once again, who cares about ravine with GQ and TE.
sure we can always say we have other things to deal with that however when thats ALL of their creatures beating your 3 drop, come on and realise its a bad card vs jund,
They all suck vs Jund. I would rather have extra 3/3 bodies than extra life vs Jund. I think splicer is much better than finks. I think resurgence can be better, but also riskier. Also, since you run extra manlands like nexus instead of TE, you obviously must have a tougher time vs their manlands like ravine. I have never had an issue with opposing ravines.
its plus is the fact that it will always leave something behind vs jund (k Command asside) so arguably its ok on that respects, however either side wont do anything other block,
An extra chump blocker can be great, no different than finks. The extra bonus of that 1/1 is sacing her to Liliana. The best is when they tap out to cast LoTV and I sac the golem. Next turn the 1/1 kills Lili then I flicker her and get a fresh golem. I have lost nothing and they are down LoTV. Also love the block the gofy, vial in wisp and get an extra golem for the counter strike.
I'd much rather play finks and get some health back and provide 1 blocker for 2 turns always(unless they are running graveyard hate)
splicer also gives you 2 blockers in almost all cases except for K command, and if they want to spend K command to kill splicer then great, I get a 1 for 1.
Wall of resurgence does the same AND blocks all of their threats and creates an attacker, Wall does get better as a build around card, however it straight up is a pain for them to deal with it and the threat it produces.
Yes, wall definitely has advantages over splicer vs jund. But it can also be riskier. If you don't have a vial, losing lands can screw you. You also can't be as aggressive at using your land destruction on them. I win many games vs Jund by denying them red mana.
Lets move on to burn, admitting its not the best it does block all of their threats REALLY well, however lets look at other 3 drops that might work slightly better
I played a match vs Burn last night, and crushed them splicers. I dropped the first splicer to slow him down, then a second that I blinked with Resto to kill him quick before he could draw the burn be needed to win. Such a potential fast clock. I won game 1 even with no maindeck life gain. Wall would have sucked because he would have killed the land. Finks would have been a similar result. The life gain would have given an extra turn or two, which I would need since it is a slower clock.
Wall and finks, both easily playable and decent against Jund, both are better here, Wall can block AND make an attacker, you can not say the same for splicer without blinking it.
Yes I can. The 1/1 dud is great at chumping and the 3/3 golem blocks guides. I would much rather my golem gets searing blazed than a land! Especially if I don't have a vial turn 1.
Finks is just more relevant because of the life gain and blocks super well too,
I usually don't need the life gain to win vs Burn.
Nacatyl burn also is a thing and atarka's command gets past your splicer token and laughs at it
Atarka's command laughs at 3/3 lands too, unless you happen to have citadel to target or the mana to animate the nexus or mutavualt, which then means you have to hold back mana and not develop your board. Better hope you have that turn 1 vial every game!
wall doesn't die, finks returns you 2 life(or they do the skullcrack and you don't take 3 to the face) and blocks well enough.
Yes, wall does not die, but your land can! I like to use my lands to destroy Naya Burns green and white sources. Also, skullcrack still does 3 to your face AND you don't get 2 life, that is how the spell works.
Affinity, this is where it does get good, providing they are running etched champions, however lets look at wall, it makes a 3/3 blocker for the champion, it blocks ANYthing on the ground,
This is actually false. Besides champion, the other ground threats are usually due to cranial plating, which is often pumps up more than 6 power which kills walls. However, splicer with 3 first strike power can block them all day long most of the time.
Finks is the meh card here since it only gains you some amount of life but that can win you games vs affinity. From the side board we win this match, our ground stuff isnt the most relevant but Wall still does better imo.
Wall does worse in my opinion
Merfolk, this match up is where it comes down to who has vial most of the time anyways, they play basicaly 0 removal some vapor snags sure but nothing too heavy, now most of their stuff will be super synergistic, however 3/3 'folk are not really going to stay 3/3 for too long, also just saying it now, Wall does block them indefinitely and the 3/3 is there too not that it is super great. However this match up we want to flickerwisp the stuffing out of their lords, we can't afford to waste it doing on splicer thats how we get behind, also spreading seas we need to keep wisp for that too just incase. Finks gains you relevant life also.
Blocking means nothing in the merfolk match because spreading seas an island walk. Splicer can be very aggressive if they get a slow hand (which sometimes happens to merfolk). It also always me to clog up the board and use my wisps defensively as needed just as you describe. Great flexibility. The best is using the 1/1 to block extra attackers if able, and then blink/flicker to get extra golems for the counterattack out of nowhere.
Infect, now all 3 here kind of just suck, wall blocks what it can, same with the other 2, not much more to say here. Wall makes a good blocker if they only have glistener.
Agreed.
Jeskai Nahiri, now this is just an arse of a match up for our 3 drops, if we get to keep vial then I really like Wall here since giving a land 3/3 and haste is quite nice, Finks is nice too for incidental Lifegains since sometimes they might be able to burn you out, they can easily remove our whole board, wall normally would stick around but they run things to fly over, I don't like many threats in our 3 drop beater slot here however out of the 3 its probably finks.
I think finks and splicer basically work the same in this matchup, ie. creatures that take extra removal to get rid of. I would rather have a 1/1 that can at least keep pinging away for damage than a 0/6 wall.
GR Tron, this is one of those weird things where if they have Ugin, sure the splicer works slightly better but MARGINALY,
Splicer works awesome vs Tron. Fast clock, the golems survive ugin and 2 damage sweepers (which fewer run any red sweeper currently, instead running bolt. Some still K return which only does two, and some run firespout, which kills your land as well)
Wall doesn't die to the red sweepers finks only gets removed completely by ugin,
Who cares if wall survives! It can't attack, and you likely just lost you land! Golems survive pyroclasm and produce a fast clock. By running extra land destruction, I don't worry about anything vs GR tron but the nut draw when they are on the play. My win% vs tron is 90% using splicer lists. Easy matchup.
so they are all kind of good and slightly useful, Ugins are probably at max 2 copies, so splicer is out, Splicer and token dies to the rest of the sweepers, wall survives but the land doesnt to the firespout, but the land survives Ugin and Ostone, Finks survives against all except Ugin, but is the only one that dies to clasm. Its a hard choice, if I had to pick one, its the Wall again.
I disagree, splicer is way better. Such a fast clock without having to risk lands to sweeper since I am already aggressively using lands to attack their manabase.
Abzan Company, Here splicer kind of gets good on the ground, also since they don't pack too much removal you can more than likely flicker it, however the same with wall, same with finks, finks is the worst here imo wall can create more blockers like splicer so they are both quite nice, its down to build here in my opinion. I'd say wall is Slightly better if built around since you can pack it on a blinkmoth and win in the air with a 7/7.
I just make an army of firsstriking golems and mutavaults to attack with instead. Works the same.
Not in anyway am I biased its based on the results of me playing in 6 different countries at numerous large events and always making day 2, would splicer been better in any of the matches? Yes maybe 1-2 sure however I'm happy with other options, since they just function a lot better when solo.
That is great for you. But dozens and dozens of players over the past 4-5 years have put up winning results consistently using blade splicer. So you own personal results are just that, your personal results. Maybe splicer was bad for your build, your play style, your meta. But that does not make her a bad card for D&T, just for you.
Blade Splicer Best in: Depending on build Abzan Company. Affinity depending on affinity build.
Worst in: GR Tron, Burn, Jund, Jeskai Nahiri.
Splicer is great vs GR tron, just as good as wall if not better. I would say better vs Burn so I don't get my land stoned rained for 1 mana. I agree wall is better vs JUnd. They are all about the same vs Jeskai.
The match ups i didn't mention in the run down are ones where they are ok in, FROM TIER 1, looking at this theres clearly a winner, argue what you like, because I know that building around wall of resurgences ONLY makes that card infinitely better as well, what I've done here is listed as if they've had no interaction.
yes, you have to build around wall. But by not having to build around splicer, that means I get to run 4 GQ, 3-4 Tech Edges, and 2-3 mutavaults. I get to focus more on destroying fragile mana bases than worry about my manabased being path to exiled while my own arbiter prevents me from searching out a land.
Now I know we are a synergistic deck, thats part of the greatness and also a MAJOR part of the issue, we HAVE to have strong cards that if we have a way to win through disruption, also anyone saying that they can put up a first strike wall vs certain opponents is not looking at the picture, if you can, you've already won, flickering splicer means nothing,
Except you are missing the entire part that you get the first strike wall by flickering splicer. That is how the wall is created!
if you are going to block with splicer/thalia/mutavault, then great however you'd get blown out by 1 removal card.
Except you won't if you play correctly. Like not double blocking if can cast removal. You also use your extra land destruction to deny them removal colors (like red vs Jund). Also, I use spellskite to protect my double blocks. Also, I will often use double blocks to bait out removal, then use wisp or resto angel to save creatures, or just get another golem anyway.
I'd personaly not risk it, not even once,
I don't risk it, I play smart.
first strike is nice vs the little stuff I'd give you that, however Thalia 2.0 does that and taxes lands AND creatures, you can't say that splicer does that,
Agreed splicer does not tax. But I don't need to choose between THC and splicer, I plan to run both once I get some THC (will let the initially release spike settle a little)
and if you can safely flicker splicer, great its just win more,
Except it is non win-more. It is usually just win. If I don't need to flicker splicer to win, then I don't. The fact that you keep stating splicer is win more makes me think you have been playing her wrong. If you don't need the extra golem, then don't flicker splicer!
flickering their blocker in their upkeep seems better if you had a thalia 2.0 in place of splicer.
Maybe, maybe not. Depends on the board state. depends on what I have in hand. Depends.
Now you can always over power any decks because of our 2 drops of cause, making life hard, however Thalia 2.0 taxes again and provides very similar damage, Wall of resurgence makes any of the ground creatures played in midrange/aggro decks cry since they can not get around it, it also provides an additional attacker/blocker its just slightly more relevant in my eyes the 1 down side is to unlock its FULL power, I think it needs blinkmoth nexus, now that is a colourless source for ThoughtKnot Seer, or Displacer, now thats not saying that Splicer is completely crap, I never said that, I said its a trap card to the newer player, which is in all honesty true, I'm not talking about a seasoned veteran of Modern, I mean someone who is looking to buy into modern and maybe likes the idea of DnT, they'd get alot more out of wall/Thalia.
You can easily play THC along with splicer. There is plenty of room in the mainboard. No need to choose. You have called splicer a bad card multiple times! That is fine if you think that. But by saying that you are confusing newer players because they have seen tons of successful lists running her, and the reason is that it is a great card in the right build. Just like wall of resurgence is great in the right build. This is better than saying splicer is bad.
Also opinions are like bottoms, everyone has them, we just need to accept that they are different, however those facts I posted above clearly shows something.
Those are NOT facts you posted! Those are you opinions! Facts are real data, like ErontheRelentless going 5-0 five times in the last month in MTGO competitive leagues running a monowhite list with Blade splcier x3. That is FACT!
If people want to play splicer I don't mind, I actually enjoy when I sit across from someone playing DnT and playing splicer, because I know I'm in for an easier ride.
And I love playing the mirror match vs decks running finks because splicer crushes finks all day long. I also don't mind wall. The ground gets all completely blocked up anyway, so have a 0/6 wall doesn't matter. I don't really care about the awakened lands much either given I run 4 GQ and 3 TE. Plus I can just flicker it to get rid of it. I also run 3-4 Resto angels which make winning easier in the mirror for those that don't run her.
All the above was from my extensive 3 years of playing this deck and others.
And mine is from 4+ years, plus facts derived from published winning deck lists. So that is all I have to say about it.
I just feel like it is a massive trap card, that needs to be known for people coming in here and thinking it can stand up to the tier 1-2 decks by itself, sadly for 3 mana, it struggles, unless you're covered in bushwhacker zoo, even then you might be dead before you can drop it.
And I just feel that people have to know that blade splicer is in fact a great card (as past AND recent results prove) that CAN stand up to tier 1-2 decks. No card stands alone by itself. It is all about how you build your deck and the other supporting cards.
Jokes aside, I think it is a mistake to either overvalue or undervalue any card in the shell. As long as it works in your metagame and fits your gameplan it's fine to play any card.
I also would like to vote on moving on from discussing this card (at least the people that have been discussing it, myself included), as it's driving nowhere and likely won't change people's mind about it (to splice or not to splice: that is the question).
Jendo and I have had this back and forth discussion about splicer for over a year now. He makes some comment about how splicer is bad (without qualifying specifics regarding build or meta). I provide a counter argument. Other posters some times provide their thoughts and then it fades away. Wait another few months and it will happen again.
I just feel like it is a massive trap card, that needs to be known for people coming in here and thinking it can stand up to the tier 1-2 decks by itself, sadly for 3 mana, it struggles, unless you're covered in bushwhacker zoo, even then you might be dead before you can drop it.
And I just feel that people have to know that blade splicer is in fact a great card (as past AND recent results prove) that CAN stand up to tier 1-2 decks. No card stands alone by itself. It is all about how you build your deck and the other supporting cards.
I should have quoted better in the second quote. I meant that there can be better 3 drops, depending on your metagame. Against control It can be a thing, but I would rather be dropping any other 3 drop (maybe splicer could do it against Grixis or Non-Nahiri Jeskai). Against combo (atm just Scapeshift, Infect and Ad Nauseam) dropping splicer doesn't do anything to stop them, whereas dropping a Mindcensor, Wingmare, or even a Crusader is almost always strictly better. The card is fine against jund, but I still prefer to play other cards against them and my results against these decks support my decision not to play her. This deck is not about getting card advantage, but an edge on tempo, at least that's how I play it and it has been very rewarding to me.
Of course there can be more optimal 3 drops depending on build and meta. The entire point of my posts was exactly that. Blade splicer is not strictly good or bad, as always, it depends on context.
The thing is, in monowhite I play splicer, in addition to all the three drops you mention. The crusaders currently hang out in the sideboard, but the wingmares and mindcensors are maindeck. I guess I get to have my cake and eat it too!
I agree, I just haven't had success with it sadly, and it doesn't perform for me. I feel like there are now numerous better creatures for the coverted 3 drop slot.
If blade splicer has not performed well for you, then that means you are not utilizing her correctly, NOT that there are "better" 3 drops. The results show many pilots have found consistent success with blade splicer.
It is not about strictly "better" creatures, but more about optimal choices for each build. Splicer works best in heavy flicker/blink builds that push their manabase (ie. fewer white sources with lots of mutavaults).
And then of course there are meta changes and the optimal choice for your meta. Perhaps splicer was never the right choice for your meta. But she seems to find good success in the diverse online meta.
This is not entirely true, it depends on the metagame. Sometimes 2 bodies are not what you want and adding Vryn Wingmare, Mirran Crusader or even Eidolon of Rhetoric (excessive example). This is a metagame deck, and it needs to be tweaked to interact profitably. In this way, Blade Splicer is the weakest link in the chain, and the first slot to be cut in any X color splash or if you need a heavier reliance on other creature effects.
It actually is entirely true, because the entire part you quoted was specifically about utilizing the right cards in the right build for the right meta, which is exactly what you described. As I said, if you have not found success with blade splicer, it is not because blade splicer is a bad card (as Jendo often boldly states), it is because you are not using it in the right deck or right meta. This is the same problem with many of the cards we play.
In an open metagame I'd probably play her as 1/2 of, but in my local area it's just not worth it as people play mostly control, combo and jund.
I actually find blade splicer an excellent choice vs control, combo, and jund. It will be even better now with selfless spirit since I do not need to worry about over extending as much. It provides actual card advantage vs control/jund. Against combo, it makes for a fast clock. I have won many games vs decks like GR tron where a turn two arbiter or thalia slows them down, and then followed by splicer + wisp/resto to produce a very fast clock. Using 2 cards to produce 10 power over 4 permanents is a very explosive play in modern. That is not to say that it is always the correct play. It is often not and new players become focused on trying to flicker their splicer to "win-more" and then getting blown out, instead of using the wisp to disrupt their opponent. In those cases it is not a splicer issue, but a misplay that is part of the learning curve.
I agree, I just haven't had success with it sadly, and it doesn't perform for me. I feel like there are now numerous better creatures for the coverted 3 drop slot.
If blade splicer has not performed well for you, then that means you are not utilizing her correctly, NOT that there are "better" 3 drops. The resuls show many pilots have found consistent success with blade splicer.
It is not about strictly "better" creatures, but more about optimal choices for each build. Splicer works best in heavy flicker/blink builds that push their manabase (ie. fewer white sources with lots of mutavaults).
And then of course there are meta changes and the optimal choice for your meta. Perhaps splicer was never the right choice for your meta. But she seems to find good success in the diverse online meta.
How has Blade Splicer been performing for those of you who play it?
I still prefer blade splicer in my monowhite list. Jendo has always been a blade splicer hater and will badmouth the poor girl at every opportunity. But the results say otherwise. EronRelentless has been crushing it with his monowhite list that includes blade splicer x3. She has also been showing up in a few winning Eldrazi&Taxes and GW lists as a x1-3.
Blade splicer is a solid card that has been played for a very long time for a reason. 4 power over 2 permanents for 3 mana is already decent. The easy casting cost with only a single white mana can often make a huge difference with being able to drop her turn 3 as opposed to other three drops like crusader, Brimaz, or finks. The ability to flicker/blink for an instant army is just awesome. If you want to stay in monowhite (or even splashes) then blade splicer is still an excellent choice as the results have shown.
The reason to run blade splicer is NOT as a flicker/blink target. It is a solid creature on its own, that becomes excellent when you have the opportunity to abuse it with wisp/resto. Knowing when and what to target with wisp is the challenge every D&T player faces and is part of the learning curve.
Root maze and ghostly prison are not creatures, therefore suboptimal. Archangel of Tithes and ghostly prison only tax creatures and not lands directly. Also, I don't see how recommending testing a single Hokori is "going this far".
By taxing the manabase, you prevent their ability to block/attack. This is the basis for how Winter Orb is effectively used. Hokori is simply a (fragile) Winter Orb with legs. The reason cards like Archangel of Tithes and Ghostly Prison work with it is that you are effectively locking out your opponent's ability to attack/block. This goes hand-in-hand with the mana denial plan built into the deck.
As for Root Maze, if you have room, you could do worse if you're going this route anyway.
The reason that this is relevant with "only one Hokori" is that there is currently an abundance of great choices available for this deck. If you're going to play an easily-removed 4-drop over cards like Thought-Knot Seer, Restoration Angel, old-school Linvala, and Reality Smasher, you may as well get your money's worth.
If you start removing creatures for cards like root maze and ghostly prison, then the deck becomes less D&T and more of an enchantment prison type deck, which is fine, but not really D&T. The only point of mentioning Hokori, is because the main issue with Hokori is the weakness to bolt, but if you are running 4 skites and 3 selfless spirits (like the example list posted by catmix) then that weakness is much less of an issue. That is all. I fail to see how suggesting a 3/1 Resto/Hokori split or 3/1 TKS/Hokori split means that I need to start considering cards like root maze and ghostly prison.
The point is that it's not worth considering.
You're trading proven, strong choices that have value on their own for a card that only has impact if played alongside other cards...and at the 4-mana slot.
It's a build-around card, not a one-off.
I would never play Hokori either, or any 4 mana card with less than 4 toughness, but that is also because I would never play four spellskites with 3 selfless spirits. But if I did then it allows the ability to play more fragile creatures like Hokori. I agree that Hokori is a build around card. Of course D&T plays MANY of the cards that build around him, so your point is moot.
It sounds like your point is to avoid discussion of old cards that you've deemed "not worth considering". However, I would say the point of a forum is discussion, especially as new sets are released. I think reconsidering old cards that could provide new interactions to be a worthwhile pursuit. THC is a natural fit with Hokori to produce a very powerful board state, even more so if you have skites and spirits to protect from removal. Not my cup of tea personally. I prefer a little more aggression. But for those who like a more controlling style for D&T, I think it is "worth considering".
You obviously disagree, which you could have simply stated in your initial reply instead of being obtuse.
Wow Catmix, spellskite x4 AND selfless spirit x3 maindeck. That is some serious protection. I am not sure that is ideal. I think 4 spellskites is too much maindeck. I hate drawing more than 1 most games, unless I am also running something that can pump them like rancor, equipment, or planeswalker.
That being said. Since you are running so much creature protection, have you thought about trying out Hokori Dustdrinker, maybe just as a singleton. Such great synergy with Thalia 1.0 and Thalia 2.0. Its main issue is the low toughness, but the spellskites and spirits take care of that. I personally have never tested Hokori, but I have also never tried running that much protection. Just a thought.
Root maze and ghostly prison are not creatures, therefore suboptimal. Archangel of Tithes and ghostly prison only tax creatures and not lands directly. Also, I don't see how recommending testing a single Hokori is "going this far".
By taxing the manabase, you prevent their ability to block/attack. This is the basis for how Winter Orb is effectively used. Hokori is simply a (fragile) Winter Orb with legs. The reason cards like Archangel of Tithes and Ghostly Prison work with it is that you are effectively locking out your opponent's ability to attack/block. This goes hand-in-hand with the mana denial plan built into the deck.
As for Root Maze, if you have room, you could do worse if you're going this route anyway.
The reason that this is relevant with "only one Hokori" is that there is currently an abundance of great choices available for this deck. If you're going to play an easily-removed 4-drop over cards like Thought-Knot Seer, Restoration Angel, old-school Linvala, and Reality Smasher, you may as well get your money's worth.
If you start removing creatures for cards like root maze and ghostly prison, then the deck becomes less D&T and more of an enchantment prison type deck, which is fine, but not really D&T. The only point of mentioning Hokori, is because the main issue with Hokori is the weakness to bolt, but if you are running 4 skites and 3 selfless spirits (like the example list posted by catmix) then that weakness is much less of an issue. That is all. I fail to see how suggesting a 3/1 Resto/Hokori split or 3/1 TKS/Hokori split means that I need to start considering cards like root maze and ghostly prison.
I'm new to this discussion, but has anyone considered adding Mangara of Corondor in the Mono-white version of the deck?
It can be used as a walking piece of removal and has some OP interactions with Restoration angel, Flickerwisp(with vail), and Eldrazi Displacer.
In addition it allows for a mana denial package with Tech edge, and Ghost Quarter. Overall in testing the deck on Tappedout, it's work quite well as a 2-3 of.
Also running new Thalia as a 4 of, is proving to be great disruption, and the 3/2 first strike, as well as protection from Eiganjo Castle, is nice.
I have run Mangara since I started playing modern D&T (which was basically the first day the original primer was posted). I initially started with 3, then 2, now 1. I have cut him several times, but always come back to a singleton. I like having a card in the deck that can take out any permanent if needed. Yes, needing to tap sucks, but I usually vial him in at end of turn so it is less of a problem. Running spellskite helps protect him until he can do his thing. The new selfless spirit will help this as well. I have on numerous occasions been able to flicker him to remove 2+ permanents. I don't think I have ever lost a game when that happened. I have even lived the dream of playing Mangara in a WU D&T build where I used Minamo, School at Water's Edge to untap and exile again and then flicker, and then do it again the next turn to exile 4 permanents!
I also run 3-4 resto angels to maximize my flicker/blink effects. The reason I like Mangara is the flexibility. Need a stone rain? Mangara has you covered. Need to unmake a creature. Mangara is there again? And once in a while he does a couples points of damage that wins the game.
Wow Catmix, spellskite x4 AND selfless spirit x3 maindeck. That is some serious protection. I am not sure that is ideal. I think 4 spellskites is too much maindeck. I hate drawing more than 1 most games, unless I am also running something that can pump them like rancor, equipment, or planeswalker.
That being said. Since you are running so much creature protection, have you thought about trying out Hokori Dustdrinker, maybe just as a singleton. Such great synergy with Thalia 1.0 and Thalia 2.0. Its main issue is the low toughness, but the spellskites and spirits take care of that. I personally have never tested Hokori, but I have also never tried running that much protection. Just a thought.
Root maze and ghostly prison are not creatures, therefore suboptimal. Archangel of Tithes and ghostly prison only tax creatures and not lands directly. Also, I don't see how recommending testing a single Hokori is "going this far".
Hokori looks like he'll be right at home in a GW list with NobleH, ThaliaHC, and lots of protection.
Good idea with trying Hokori in GW. The hierarchs can power ThaliaHC and Hokori out faster, and the mana dorks help break the symmetry. Could be a very interesting additional path to take with D&T. It is amazing what a couple extra tools can do for deckbuilding! What a great set for modern!
I haven't had much time to play online recently. I did finally pick up a playset of Selfless spirit and have tested a little bit. I have been trying the full playset of +4 Selfless Spirit with -2 Niblis, -1 Spellskite and -1 8.5 Tails from the list you posted. In the handful of matches I have tested I have been very impressed with Selfless Spirit. Having such a great defensive and offensive creature in the two mana slot makes all the difference. I have also tried the +2 Thalia HC, -1 Displacer and -1 Resto Angel and have liked her the couples times I have seen her. The best part was her being able to tap down wanna-be big blockers like goyf for that extra turn to allow me to get enough damage in to close games. One game she also made the opponent 4th land come into play tapped, which then allowed me a double Tec Edge the next turn to close out the game. I don't think I'd run more than 1 or 2 of the new Thalia since we have so many options at the 3-drop slot, but she definitely adds another layer of tax and even more redundancy.
A couple other things to keep in mind: hallowed fountain is an island. In general I try to stay away from islands because I don't want to help merfolk any more than I have to. However, fountain is also a plains, which means you can GQ a flagstones and search for it and a basic plains.
Ok, that is quite the post for your final word on the subject, but I will reply since I think it is important for new players to know that blade splicer is an excellent option for D&T.
Don't forget the 1/1 you get as well. If Jund doesn't care about a 3/3, then it also doesn't care about a 3/3 land or a 3/2 finks. So this comment is irrelevant.
Neither can finks or 3/3 lands (unless you have blinkmoths with evasion. Also who cares about raging ravine when we run 4 ghost quarters and 2-4 tec edges
Yep. And how do I get those multiple first strikers? with blade splicer!
It can happen, but usually only with sloppy play. You can also get blown out with wall of resurgence and your lands get terminated, bolted, etc.
And I can say it as a pilot of the deck for over 4 years, I have made it work, as have many many winning deck lists. So... yeah
Finks doesn't do ANY better than splicer vs those creatures. Wall can block them, but the 3/3 land can't do crap unless you put it on a blinkmoth nexus, and you better have mana up to animate before it gets bolted. Also, once again, who cares about ravine with GQ and TE.
They all suck vs Jund. I would rather have extra 3/3 bodies than extra life vs Jund. I think splicer is much better than finks. I think resurgence can be better, but also riskier. Also, since you run extra manlands like nexus instead of TE, you obviously must have a tougher time vs their manlands like ravine. I have never had an issue with opposing ravines.
An extra chump blocker can be great, no different than finks. The extra bonus of that 1/1 is sacing her to Liliana. The best is when they tap out to cast LoTV and I sac the golem. Next turn the 1/1 kills Lili then I flicker her and get a fresh golem. I have lost nothing and they are down LoTV. Also love the block the gofy, vial in wisp and get an extra golem for the counter strike.
splicer also gives you 2 blockers in almost all cases except for K command, and if they want to spend K command to kill splicer then great, I get a 1 for 1.
Yes, wall definitely has advantages over splicer vs jund. But it can also be riskier. If you don't have a vial, losing lands can screw you. You also can't be as aggressive at using your land destruction on them. I win many games vs Jund by denying them red mana.
I played a match vs Burn last night, and crushed them splicers. I dropped the first splicer to slow him down, then a second that I blinked with Resto to kill him quick before he could draw the burn be needed to win. Such a potential fast clock. I won game 1 even with no maindeck life gain. Wall would have sucked because he would have killed the land. Finks would have been a similar result. The life gain would have given an extra turn or two, which I would need since it is a slower clock.
Yes I can. The 1/1 dud is great at chumping and the 3/3 golem blocks guides. I would much rather my golem gets searing blazed than a land! Especially if I don't have a vial turn 1.
I usually don't need the life gain to win vs Burn.
Atarka's command laughs at 3/3 lands too, unless you happen to have citadel to target or the mana to animate the nexus or mutavualt, which then means you have to hold back mana and not develop your board. Better hope you have that turn 1 vial every game!
Yes, wall does not die, but your land can! I like to use my lands to destroy Naya Burns green and white sources. Also, skullcrack still does 3 to your face AND you don't get 2 life, that is how the spell works.
This is actually false. Besides champion, the other ground threats are usually due to cranial plating, which is often pumps up more than 6 power which kills walls. However, splicer with 3 first strike power can block them all day long most of the time.
Wall does worse in my opinion
Blocking means nothing in the merfolk match because spreading seas an island walk. Splicer can be very aggressive if they get a slow hand (which sometimes happens to merfolk). It also always me to clog up the board and use my wisps defensively as needed just as you describe. Great flexibility. The best is using the 1/1 to block extra attackers if able, and then blink/flicker to get extra golems for the counterattack out of nowhere.
Agreed.
I think finks and splicer basically work the same in this matchup, ie. creatures that take extra removal to get rid of. I would rather have a 1/1 that can at least keep pinging away for damage than a 0/6 wall.
Splicer works awesome vs Tron. Fast clock, the golems survive ugin and 2 damage sweepers (which fewer run any red sweeper currently, instead running bolt. Some still K return which only does two, and some run firespout, which kills your land as well)
Who cares if wall survives! It can't attack, and you likely just lost you land! Golems survive pyroclasm and produce a fast clock. By running extra land destruction, I don't worry about anything vs GR tron but the nut draw when they are on the play. My win% vs tron is 90% using splicer lists. Easy matchup.
I disagree, splicer is way better. Such a fast clock without having to risk lands to sweeper since I am already aggressively using lands to attack their manabase.
I just make an army of firsstriking golems and mutavaults to attack with instead. Works the same.
That is great for you. But dozens and dozens of players over the past 4-5 years have put up winning results consistently using blade splicer. So you own personal results are just that, your personal results. Maybe splicer was bad for your build, your play style, your meta. But that does not make her a bad card for D&T, just for you.
Splicer is great vs GR tron, just as good as wall if not better. I would say better vs Burn so I don't get my land stoned rained for 1 mana. I agree wall is better vs JUnd. They are all about the same vs Jeskai.
yes, you have to build around wall. But by not having to build around splicer, that means I get to run 4 GQ, 3-4 Tech Edges, and 2-3 mutavaults. I get to focus more on destroying fragile mana bases than worry about my manabased being path to exiled while my own arbiter prevents me from searching out a land.
Except you are missing the entire part that you get the first strike wall by flickering splicer. That is how the wall is created!
Except you won't if you play correctly. Like not double blocking if can cast removal. You also use your extra land destruction to deny them removal colors (like red vs Jund). Also, I use spellskite to protect my double blocks. Also, I will often use double blocks to bait out removal, then use wisp or resto angel to save creatures, or just get another golem anyway.
I don't risk it, I play smart.
Agreed splicer does not tax. But I don't need to choose between THC and splicer, I plan to run both once I get some THC (will let the initially release spike settle a little)
Except it is non win-more. It is usually just win. If I don't need to flicker splicer to win, then I don't. The fact that you keep stating splicer is win more makes me think you have been playing her wrong. If you don't need the extra golem, then don't flicker splicer!
Maybe, maybe not. Depends on the board state. depends on what I have in hand. Depends.
You can easily play THC along with splicer. There is plenty of room in the mainboard. No need to choose. You have called splicer a bad card multiple times! That is fine if you think that. But by saying that you are confusing newer players because they have seen tons of successful lists running her, and the reason is that it is a great card in the right build. Just like wall of resurgence is great in the right build. This is better than saying splicer is bad.
Those are NOT facts you posted! Those are you opinions! Facts are real data, like ErontheRelentless going 5-0 five times in the last month in MTGO competitive leagues running a monowhite list with Blade splcier x3. That is FACT!
And I love playing the mirror match vs decks running finks because splicer crushes finks all day long. I also don't mind wall. The ground gets all completely blocked up anyway, so have a 0/6 wall doesn't matter. I don't really care about the awakened lands much either given I run 4 GQ and 3 TE. Plus I can just flicker it to get rid of it. I also run 3-4 Resto angels which make winning easier in the mirror for those that don't run her.
And mine is from 4+ years, plus facts derived from published winning deck lists. So that is all I have to say about it.
Jendo and I have had this back and forth discussion about splicer for over a year now. He makes some comment about how splicer is bad (without qualifying specifics regarding build or meta). I provide a counter argument. Other posters some times provide their thoughts and then it fades away. Wait another few months and it will happen again.
And I just feel that people have to know that blade splicer is in fact a great card (as past AND recent results prove) that CAN stand up to tier 1-2 decks. No card stands alone by itself. It is all about how you build your deck and the other supporting cards.
Of course there can be more optimal 3 drops depending on build and meta. The entire point of my posts was exactly that. Blade splicer is not strictly good or bad, as always, it depends on context.
The thing is, in monowhite I play splicer, in addition to all the three drops you mention. The crusaders currently hang out in the sideboard, but the wingmares and mindcensors are maindeck. I guess I get to have my cake and eat it too!
It actually is entirely true, because the entire part you quoted was specifically about utilizing the right cards in the right build for the right meta, which is exactly what you described. As I said, if you have not found success with blade splicer, it is not because blade splicer is a bad card (as Jendo often boldly states), it is because you are not using it in the right deck or right meta. This is the same problem with many of the cards we play.
I actually find blade splicer an excellent choice vs control, combo, and jund. It will be even better now with selfless spirit since I do not need to worry about over extending as much. It provides actual card advantage vs control/jund. Against combo, it makes for a fast clock. I have won many games vs decks like GR tron where a turn two arbiter or thalia slows them down, and then followed by splicer + wisp/resto to produce a very fast clock. Using 2 cards to produce 10 power over 4 permanents is a very explosive play in modern. That is not to say that it is always the correct play. It is often not and new players become focused on trying to flicker their splicer to "win-more" and then getting blown out, instead of using the wisp to disrupt their opponent. In those cases it is not a splicer issue, but a misplay that is part of the learning curve.
If blade splicer has not performed well for you, then that means you are not utilizing her correctly, NOT that there are "better" 3 drops. The resuls show many pilots have found consistent success with blade splicer.
It is not about strictly "better" creatures, but more about optimal choices for each build. Splicer works best in heavy flicker/blink builds that push their manabase (ie. fewer white sources with lots of mutavaults).
And then of course there are meta changes and the optimal choice for your meta. Perhaps splicer was never the right choice for your meta. But she seems to find good success in the diverse online meta.
I still prefer blade splicer in my monowhite list. Jendo has always been a blade splicer hater and will badmouth the poor girl at every opportunity. But the results say otherwise. EronRelentless has been crushing it with his monowhite list that includes blade splicer x3. She has also been showing up in a few winning Eldrazi&Taxes and GW lists as a x1-3.
Blade splicer is a solid card that has been played for a very long time for a reason. 4 power over 2 permanents for 3 mana is already decent. The easy casting cost with only a single white mana can often make a huge difference with being able to drop her turn 3 as opposed to other three drops like crusader, Brimaz, or finks. The ability to flicker/blink for an instant army is just awesome. If you want to stay in monowhite (or even splashes) then blade splicer is still an excellent choice as the results have shown.
The reason to run blade splicer is NOT as a flicker/blink target. It is a solid creature on its own, that becomes excellent when you have the opportunity to abuse it with wisp/resto. Knowing when and what to target with wisp is the challenge every D&T player faces and is part of the learning curve.
I would never play Hokori either, or any 4 mana card with less than 4 toughness, but that is also because I would never play four spellskites with 3 selfless spirits. But if I did then it allows the ability to play more fragile creatures like Hokori. I agree that Hokori is a build around card. Of course D&T plays MANY of the cards that build around him, so your point is moot.
It sounds like your point is to avoid discussion of old cards that you've deemed "not worth considering". However, I would say the point of a forum is discussion, especially as new sets are released. I think reconsidering old cards that could provide new interactions to be a worthwhile pursuit. THC is a natural fit with Hokori to produce a very powerful board state, even more so if you have skites and spirits to protect from removal. Not my cup of tea personally. I prefer a little more aggression. But for those who like a more controlling style for D&T, I think it is "worth considering".
You obviously disagree, which you could have simply stated in your initial reply instead of being obtuse.
If you start removing creatures for cards like root maze and ghostly prison, then the deck becomes less D&T and more of an enchantment prison type deck, which is fine, but not really D&T. The only point of mentioning Hokori, is because the main issue with Hokori is the weakness to bolt, but if you are running 4 skites and 3 selfless spirits (like the example list posted by catmix) then that weakness is much less of an issue. That is all. I fail to see how suggesting a 3/1 Resto/Hokori split or 3/1 TKS/Hokori split means that I need to start considering cards like root maze and ghostly prison.
I have run Mangara since I started playing modern D&T (which was basically the first day the original primer was posted). I initially started with 3, then 2, now 1. I have cut him several times, but always come back to a singleton. I like having a card in the deck that can take out any permanent if needed. Yes, needing to tap sucks, but I usually vial him in at end of turn so it is less of a problem. Running spellskite helps protect him until he can do his thing. The new selfless spirit will help this as well. I have on numerous occasions been able to flicker him to remove 2+ permanents. I don't think I have ever lost a game when that happened. I have even lived the dream of playing Mangara in a WU D&T build where I used Minamo, School at Water's Edge to untap and exile again and then flicker, and then do it again the next turn to exile 4 permanents!
I also run 3-4 resto angels to maximize my flicker/blink effects. The reason I like Mangara is the flexibility. Need a stone rain? Mangara has you covered. Need to unmake a creature. Mangara is there again? And once in a while he does a couples points of damage that wins the game.
Root maze and ghostly prison are not creatures, therefore suboptimal. Archangel of Tithes and ghostly prison only tax creatures and not lands directly. Also, I don't see how recommending testing a single Hokori is "going this far".
Good idea with trying Hokori in GW. The hierarchs can power ThaliaHC and Hokori out faster, and the mana dorks help break the symmetry. Could be a very interesting additional path to take with D&T. It is amazing what a couple extra tools can do for deckbuilding! What a great set for modern!