Maybe something like this if you were to splash red, not entirely sure.
It likely needs the fourth bob or a second Arena, and more Helix's since we take so much damage, just not sure where to find the room. Also a third pack rat would be nice.
I think we differ on quite a few cards, and I'm personally not a fan of your list, 4 Pack rat is fine...if you have mutavaults, otherwise I'm not impressed with it in modern, which is why I just tweaked my manabase to include mutavaults for the pack rats.
I still don't think Shadow of Doubt is worth playing, it's a 2 mana possible 'gotcha', but maindeck? Eh.
Updated list is -1 tec edge -1 vault -2 lingering souls +2 muta +1 phyrexian arena +1 pack rat.
Sideboard is -3 Leylines +2 lingering souls +1 Thoughtseize.
Maybe something like this if you were to splash red, not entirely sure.
It likely needs the fourth bob or a second Arena, and more Helix's since we take so much damage, just not sure where to find the room. Also a third pack rat would be nice.
Most of us don't run swords and hawk is just a 1/1 flier that can get you some more 1/1 fliers...Plays a similar roll to lingering souls but souls is so good for us because it makes two creatures on it's own which has made all the difference in the world to me when needing to stabilize.
Pack rat is much better for us then hawk because the rat turns our turn 12 topdeck thoughtseize or land into a creature while also pumping the board we have already established. playing a rat turn 2 almost always leads to our opponent killing it immediately because if they don't they are basically never going to get rid of it. Early game rat is good removal bait to make the follow up bob (hopefully) stick and late game it makes sure we are playing a creature every turn if we need to.
Bob in my opinion is super important to our list but I have been trying out a 3/2 split of him and arena simply because I don't have but 3 bobs. Arena is good but it doesn't present a clock on it's own and can't block. As said a few times already Bob is not really a turn 2 play for us unless we really have no other option I'd much prefer to go turn 2 sculler and turn 3 bob with a mana open for whatever removal.
This deck is still fairly new and I am sure there are a few different routes it can go but upping the arena count and cutting the bob's leaves us with very few threats which seems to already be a problem for us which again is why pack rat is so good for us.
The green splash has been discussed some but personally I would rather have access to mutavaults, tec edge, and vault which would be very hard to fit into a 3 color mana base and just opens us up to more shocks from our own lands since at this point you basically have to grab shocklands which also opens us up to blood moon. I haven't actually tried the green splash myself but just doesn't seem worth it.
tombstalker seems like a fun creature to try but that really eliminates bob as an option (baneslayer is already pushing it, although she can at least make up the 5 damage youd take by flipping her) but tombstalker doesn't play quite the same roll. Tons of times I have dropped baneslayer while at 6-8 life against a board capable of doing 10 damage even with my blocks. With tombstalker your still just dead but baneslayer makes it so they must have a super amazing board to finish us off.
I can understand your positioning on that, and after some further testing Pack Rat seems fairly strong. I tested a green splash swapping the Scullers for Goyfs, and running a 2/2 split of bobs/arenas and that faired much much better in testing. Goyf is just such a strong clock, and paired with pack rat or brimaz it's far more a nightmare than Sculler is, IMO.
Also adding 2 decays allows us to deal with planeswalkers/swords much easier than before.
How necessary is Bob? I feel like the lists can run strongly with things like Tombstalker and batterskull and not have to worry about bob flips killing them.
Bob always dies to removel if he's a turn 2 play.
If I try to save him, my opponent starts threateneing to combo me out, or bolting me.
Once I get to ~10 life and I'm low on removal spells, I need to play Bob to start Drawing, but then I'm in Snapcaster + Bolt range, or getting run over by Gavony Township/Tarmogoyf/Raging Ravine
Bob is obviously good vs. non Lightning Bolt/Abrupt Decay decks...
But those creature matchups, my life total gets pretty important and you really need to use all removal spells on opponents.
Baneslayer or Pack Rat eventually closes the game out, but your opponent sometimes has lots of time to draw something real while you flood on lands.
The awful 2-drops in B/W make me want to go Junk (which has been testing decently).
This is truly a BW control deck with some cards that aren't directly counters/removal spells. (Bob, Sculler, Souls, Pack Rat).
I haven't read the entire thread, and I know that splashing Green to turn this into Junk is no longer deadguy Ale, but.... Voice of Resurgence + Abrupt Decay seem really strong. You'd probably want Goyf too and then it just turns into a Junk Midrange list instead of just splashing green though.
I mostly play standard and have never been a huge fan of Pack Rat to be honest, Squadron Hawk seems like a much better choice especially to carry a sword.
Nightveil is literally the easiest thing to cast in the deck matching 24 of my 26 lands. Pack Rat is great as a late game way to filter out lands, and also get a draw off Ephara that triggers on your own turn. I do side it out against Esper and Black, but I often like at least having a singleton.
I could see dropping Bile Blight, but having 4x Sphere and 2x Downfall is a pretty nice catch-all for removal. The BB is much less of an issue for me, I am playing 17 Black sources as opposed to your list only having 13.
I started testing 4 NVS just to see how it goes, I stayed at 25 land and left out Elspeth for now, I'm not sure we really want her. Athreos can't come fast enough. I really want to put Herald in this deck. Flying kitty awayyy
I think we have similar ideas in our deck choices here. Though I'm not a fan of Pack Rat without Mutavault, and I'm not really sure we can reliably cast Nightveil Specter, but I do like the ideas. Downfall I don't like, because the double black on turn 3 is *really* stretching the mana base, and bile blight just okay, I never felt like I really wanted it.
So, yeah. Turns out that, to build that Stax deck, I would need over $400 that I simply don't have. That's really not happening unless I get a really good job for some reason.
Instead, I decided to just go more into the Fight mechanics, since I rather like Triangle of War. Indestructible dudes and dudes with regeneration, re-usable cheap guys as fodder for Skullclamp and Garruk Relentless, Vengevine because Gravecrawler makes him easy to abuse.
Indestructible and regeneration allowing many of my dudes to ignore my board wipes is also pretty solid, I think. Crypt Ghast might go back onto the list at some point. And by that, I mean it will and I want to cut something for him.
I guess I will have to carry the Stax torch from now on! But this is an interesting take for the list. I'm curious to see when you complete it fully.
As for the mana situation, I added Rings of Brighthearth, I have 35 lands and a couple mana accelerating artifacts, along with Burnished Hart, it's possible that there needs to be more mana, but it needs a lot more playtesting before I can really come to a conclusion about that.
My Esper deck hasn't had a human subtheme for a while now, but since this is my thread I guess I can change course a bit :D. BNG really gave us powerful tools in Ephara and Brimaz, and my latest version abuses them to the fullest. The interaction with Obzadat is just icing on the cake.
I'm not convinced 12 Temples is where I want to be forever, but with the current speed of the format it gives this slower type of deck a huge amount of filtering. I'm not totally sold on any of the current removal, so the small bunch of 1-ofs is working for the time being.
Pack Rat really only comes out at 5 mana+ unless I'm just trying to bait some removal out to protect Brimaz. It's a pretty crazy engine with Ephara in play.
Twelve temples is a lot and really slows us down, I found Elspeth was often far too slow in my testing of her, so I replaced her with Desecration Demon. How is Nightveil working for you? It's awfully hard to go from Brimaz to Specter and such, that's an awful lot of mana symbols you need to hit.
I think we differ on quite a few cards, and I'm personally not a fan of your list, 4 Pack rat is fine...if you have mutavaults, otherwise I'm not impressed with it in modern, which is why I just tweaked my manabase to include mutavaults for the pack rats.
I still don't think Shadow of Doubt is worth playing, it's a 2 mana possible 'gotcha', but maindeck? Eh.
Updated list is -1 tec edge -1 vault -2 lingering souls +2 muta +1 phyrexian arena +1 pack rat.
Sideboard is -3 Leylines +2 lingering souls +1 Thoughtseize.
2x Blood Crypt
4x Godless Shrine
1x Isolated Chapel
4x Marsh Flats
1x Mountain
2x Mutavault
2x Plains
2x Sacred Foundry
2x Swamp
1x Tectonic Edge
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x Verdant Catacombs
Instant (12)
1x Dismember
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Lightning Helix
4x Path to Exile
1x Slaughter Pact
2x Baneslayer Angel
2x Brimaz, King of Oreskos
3x Dark Confidant
2x Pack Rat
Planeswalker (4)
1x Ajani Vengeant
3x Liliana of the Veil
Enchantment (1)
1x Phyrexian Arena
Sorcery (10)
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Lingering Souls
3x Thoughtseize
2x Damnation
1x Darkblast
3x Fulminator Mage
3x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Rakdos Charm
1x Rest in Peace
2x Slaughter Games
2x Stony Silence
Maybe something like this if you were to splash red, not entirely sure.
It likely needs the fourth bob or a second Arena, and more Helix's since we take so much damage, just not sure where to find the room. Also a third pack rat would be nice.
I can understand your positioning on that, and after some further testing Pack Rat seems fairly strong. I tested a green splash swapping the Scullers for Goyfs, and running a 2/2 split of bobs/arenas and that faired much much better in testing. Goyf is just such a strong clock, and paired with pack rat or brimaz it's far more a nightmare than Sculler is, IMO.
Also adding 2 decays allows us to deal with planeswalkers/swords much easier than before.
I haven't read the entire thread, and I know that splashing Green to turn this into Junk is no longer deadguy Ale, but.... Voice of Resurgence + Abrupt Decay seem really strong. You'd probably want Goyf too and then it just turns into a Junk Midrange list instead of just splashing green though.
I mostly play standard and have never been a huge fan of Pack Rat to be honest, Squadron Hawk seems like a much better choice especially to carry a sword.
Plus Redditor for 9 hours.
May I suggest Far // Away over Mortars? I like it over Devour Flesh.
I started testing 4 NVS just to see how it goes, I stayed at 25 land and left out Elspeth for now, I'm not sure we really want her. Athreos can't come fast enough. I really want to put Herald in this deck. Flying kitty awayyy
1x Ajani, Caller of the Pride
2x Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
Instant (4)
2x Far / Away
2x Ultimate Price
Enchantment (7)
4x Detention Sphere
1x Spear of Heliod
2x Whip of Erebos
Creature (21)
3x Brimaz, King of Oreskos
2x Desecration Demon
3x Ephara, God of the Polis
2x Imposing Sovereign
4x Lyev Skyknight
3x Obzedat, Ghost Council
4x Precinct Captain
4x Godless Shrine
4x Hallowed Fountain
4x Plains
2x Swamp
4x Temple of Enlightenment
4x Temple of Silence
3x Watery Grave
2x Blood Baron of Vizkopa
2x Dark Betrayal
2x Doom Blade
2x Glare of Heresy
1x Revoke Existence
2x Sin Collector
2x Supreme Verdict
2x Thoughtseize
I think we have similar ideas in our deck choices here. Though I'm not a fan of Pack Rat without Mutavault, and I'm not really sure we can reliably cast Nightveil Specter, but I do like the ideas. Downfall I don't like, because the double black on turn 3 is *really* stretching the mana base, and bile blight just okay, I never felt like I really wanted it.
Child of Alara has to hit the GY for its effect to trigger, how do you plan to bring it back?
I guess I will have to carry the Stax torch from now on! But this is an interesting take for the list. I'm curious to see when you complete it fully.
1x Damnation
1x Death Cloud
1x Decree of Pain
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Exsanguinate
1x Gaze of Granite
1x Genesis Wave
1x Life from the Loam
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Rise of the Dark Realms
1x Worm Harvest
1x Yawgmoth's Will
Instant (3)
1x Beast Within
1x Krosan Grip
1x Vampiric Tutor
Enchantment (5)
1x Bitterblossom
1x Grave Pact
1x Necropotence
1x Phyrexian Arena
1x Primeval Bounty
Creature (19)
1x Arcbound Ravager
1x Braids, Cabal Minion
1x Burnished Hart
1x Courser of Kruphix
1x Crypt Ghast
1x Duplicant
1x Eternal Witness
1x Glissa, the Traitor
1x Grave Titan
1x Harvester of Souls
1x Junk Diver
1x Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1x Oracle of Mul Daya
1x Phyrexian Obliterator
1x Reaper of the Wilds
1x Seedborn Muse
1x Sheoldred, Whispering One
1x Solemn Simulacrum
1x Wurmcoil Engine
1x Garruk, Primal Hunter
Land (35)
1x Bayou
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Cabal Coffers
1x Command Tower
6x Forest
1x Golgari Rot Farm
1x Llanowar Wastes
1x Marsh Flats
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Phyrexia's Core
1x Polluted Delta
1x Reliquary Tower
1x Strip Mine
7x Swamp
1x Twilight Mire
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Winding Canyons
1x Windswept Heath
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Woodland Cemetery
Artifact (25)
1x Caged Sun
1x Cursed Totem
1x Darksteel Ingot
1x Druidic Satchel
1x Executioner's Capsule
1x Expedition Map
1x Golgari Signet
1x Krark-Clan Ironworks
1x Lightning Greaves
1x Mana Vault
1x Nevinyrral's Disk
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Oblivion Stone
1x Phyrexian Furnace
1x Ratchet Bomb
1x Rings of Brighthearth
1x Sculpting Steel
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Skullclamp
1x Smokestack
1x Sol Ring
1x Sphere of Resistance
1x Trading Post
1x Trinisphere
1x Tsabo's Web
Third update for now, Rise of the Dark Realms is a flex spot, I might turn it into Pox.
As for the mana situation, I added Rings of Brighthearth, I have 35 lands and a couple mana accelerating artifacts, along with Burnished Hart, it's possible that there needs to be more mana, but it needs a lot more playtesting before I can really come to a conclusion about that.
Twelve temples is a lot and really slows us down, I found Elspeth was often far too slow in my testing of her, so I replaced her with Desecration Demon. How is Nightveil working for you? It's awfully hard to go from Brimaz to Specter and such, that's an awful lot of mana symbols you need to hit.