I disagree with this because of how developed all the stickied decks where you could say that those decks where the "best of developing". Now when say a new user shows up he will be drowned out by other decks that may just be ideas of whim or less developed rather than getting an idea of some of the more successful brews and what level he would need to compete at with those other brews.
I already saw they are unstickied but could I suggest a "hall of fame" sticky? Just one thread that links to all the most developed and successful developing legacy decks, sort of an efficient way of cleaning up all those stickies but at the same time giving brewers a resource to see the "best" developing deck without having to figure out for themselves based off of views and post count.
Also how would the review process for moving decks from developing to established work? Based off of tournament results? Numbers only approach? This process seems interesting and I would love some insight as to how that would work.
Decided to try out Venser, Shaper Savant in the list and it is overperforming like mad. More free wins as well as we have a grindy lock engine and another answer to things like vials before we can chalice and the like. Also makes delve critters horrid against us in aggro matchups like tasigur. We now also have an instant speed answer to spells for once which this deck has severely lacked.
this looks like a fairly standard death and taxes list and will serve you well getting into legacy. The only thing I can see you getting alongside this are more options for the sideboard like glowrider and the like, usually these are cheap and are just options to adjust your list to your meta.
The mainboard is fine but if you are serious about the archetype consider where you are playing and get more options for your board accordingly. Some things I would reccomend are path to exile (if your meta runs next to no basics), ghost quarter (for the same reason), Glowrider (if your meta is dominated by fast combo, high tide and the likes) helm of obediance (in case you know you wont win with aggro and need a combo finisher with rest in peace, say they run moat and something to protect it), disenchants (deceptivly good for it's price and availability), banishing light (if you find yourself wanting more O-rings in your meta and you want to dodge things like surgical and meddling mage), eidolon of rhetoric (once again for a combo heavy meta and say ethersworn isnt enough or it dies to something like bolt, this is also a great card against artificers intuition and eggs should you ever see it), tivadar's crusade (in case goblins becomes a thing again), and unexpectantly absent (fantastic removal in general and if you ever find yourself unable to take care of a permanent easily with targeted type hate this might be your best bet)
their are no real mistakes in this list, it all depends on your meta your mainboard choices. But this list can confidently bring you into legacy no problem.
after playing your list a bit my god it feels fantastic!
Of all the cards you put in engineered explosives and tezzeret did some of the most work I have ever seen in a list like this. Now I know why you have it in their holy crap.
I played mostly against stoneblade and omnishow tonight and it ripped them apart, the only cards that underperformed where intuition (which was either countered or just never became relevant) kiora (who was never relevant except to eat one attack from a TNN) and urborg (which made me almost lose game 2 to omnishow who boarded in thoughtseize and ripped my bridge) but otherwise the list does a ton of work.
Of all the games I lost the ones I lost I couldnt find some way of keeping the opponent from attacking me, one of them was an engineered explosives that was force of willed and the other was omnishow cunning wishing in a way to remove my bridge with an emrakul on the board (I didnt find karakas in time). The one thing I will say is that not having armageddon isnt as horrible as I thought but at the same time the games I lost would have been won with an armageddon. Not having a boardwipe outside of EE also made me lose against omnishow that boarded in young pyromancers and boarded out emrakul (odd I know but it worked). Im thinking for the Bug version a damnation or two would be fantastic in the board or maybe toxic deluge, black suns zenith, etc would be nice to have somewhere (losing to two young pyromancers after blowing up 15 elementals feels bad). But otherwise I won most of my games with your list.
Also have you thought of a Helm of Obediance in the board for when you want leyline of the void? I put one in my board and it won a game for me, not on my own leyline but on an opponents rest in peace
Holy crap when you said detailed... Well I guess I should have known!
Their are a fewc omments I could make on that list and card choices, one is the very high amount of duals and fetches in combination. The list I have been running uses only one fetch and three duals since we want to pack so many lands that do something. Maybe that approach is better maybe its worse, I need to load this list up and try it out to get a feel for it.
Second no smokestack? I can understand using engineered explosives as a sort of catch all but it is very mana intensive and isnt as one sided as smokestack in the matchups its good in, then again I was never a fan of EE since I hated that it blew up our lock pieces to begin with.
Kiora also seems like she could be a fantastic finisher but otherwise she doenst hit our biggest aggro threat, true name nemesis, although it would be nice in the stoneblade matchup regardless since batterskull does present a clock.
My only other concern is the lack of ability to turn on ensnaring bridge when you need it. I cant think of anything that would be too too good in a list like this except for maybe something like... Null Brooch? Knowledge Vault? I am stumped how you could turn on bridge when you need to in this list.
Otherwise this list takes a very different approach, and seems like of all the lists I've seen or worked on this one could kill the quickest with the threat of tezzerets card advantage and ultimate especially combined with thopter foundry you could potentially close out games incredibly easily compare to how grindy my original list is.
Also last question, would you like this list to be added to the primer as another deck option for this archetype?
Very glad you like the list! And as for long messages I love long messages
You make some incredibly good points about the list and in all honesty I can see some merit in every point you made especially your comments about garruk and bottled cloister. Garruk was shoved in to deal with our stoneblade matchup, being that we have no real way to answer an early stoneforge mystic except for garruk, if you know anything better I would love to hear about it! As for bottled cloister its not actually for discard at all but merely a way to turn on bridge while giving us card advantage at the same time, meaning if we need to dig for a tabernacle or something to win the game with we can keep the opponent fenced in with bridge while generating card advantage. Our only instant speed interaction already being played out like maze of ith and the like. I for one think it's fantastic only because other sources of artifact card draw just aren't that good. The tomes being especially bad.
Besides all that though, the list you posted looks hilariously fun! The abyss itself being a mini-smokestack that dodges things like ancient grudge and krosan grip is all too enticing! As well as your take with intuition is a line of thought that seemingly went right over my head! I think however, that their may be room for multiple interpretations of this list since if you do cut white you miss on supreme verdict and council's judgement as well as karakas which are hilariously good cards, being able to mainboard answer show and tell, reanimator, and to a lesser extent death and taxes (thalia and mangara). Maybe your interpretation is better maybe not but I definitely am going to play around with your list because all in all I like the thought of throwing TNN into the abyss
I would appreciate an in depth card explanation whenever you have the time. And thank you for the complement.
(edit) Oh I didnt notice you also ran karakas, so just as a colorless source I guess. That card is dumb good in this kind of list
It looks and plays gooby as all heck but ive done some horribly unfair things to people. Most of my testing thus far has been against omnishow and that matchup looks good but I took som inspiration from enchantress here with a full lockdown with words of wind, words of waste and loreseekers stone. It's way grindier and wants to just generate value with waste not rather than get huge empty the pits out. Most of the time I won with either snapcaster beats alongside a few skeletons while they just couldnt hold on to any cards and anything they actually made stick either died to a liliana or words of wind to care of it. What do you take from this?
you would probably be better off with some infinite toughness combo using things like shuko, nomads en kor, etc. and task force, daru spritualist, and angelic protector.
hell since your running green anyways you can run collected company to put the creatures you need out at instant speed EoT if they tap out for something like a jace then you can play something like flight spellbomb, soaring seacliff (uncounterable give someone flying (ok not uncounterable but really only stifle)) or sapphire charm to send an infinite toughness flyer to their face. This would also allow you to cut out black unless you really want to run it and if you decide to run things like sapphire charm you can run blue then too to protect your combo and run some fantastic card selection which I would think would be more important than discard. Since this would win that turn you can also afford to run something like pact of negation instead of force of will to protect it.
Since assault formation can also allow defenders to attack you can also run things like wall of omens or wall of blossoms to not only dig but give you a 4/4 beater for 2. But that would be more or less a plan B if you know you can win with beats quicker than you could win with the combo.
I would personally avoid doran or any aggro type of win condition since you can win much more safely with this concept than that.
looks like this list has trouble getting to sphere and crucible without bob, and im guessing life is really tight especially with smallpox and tomb AND bob.
Have you considered a 2/2 or 1/3 split with city of traitors? That might give you more breathing room in case you NEED that sphere out now but casting it with tomb would kill you.
I disagree with this because of how developed all the stickied decks where you could say that those decks where the "best of developing". Now when say a new user shows up he will be drowned out by other decks that may just be ideas of whim or less developed rather than getting an idea of some of the more successful brews and what level he would need to compete at with those other brews.
I already saw they are unstickied but could I suggest a "hall of fame" sticky? Just one thread that links to all the most developed and successful developing legacy decks, sort of an efficient way of cleaning up all those stickies but at the same time giving brewers a resource to see the "best" developing deck without having to figure out for themselves based off of views and post count.
Also how would the review process for moving decks from developing to established work? Based off of tournament results? Numbers only approach? This process seems interesting and I would love some insight as to how that would work.
The mainboard is fine but if you are serious about the archetype consider where you are playing and get more options for your board accordingly. Some things I would reccomend are path to exile (if your meta runs next to no basics), ghost quarter (for the same reason), Glowrider (if your meta is dominated by fast combo, high tide and the likes) helm of obediance (in case you know you wont win with aggro and need a combo finisher with rest in peace, say they run moat and something to protect it), disenchants (deceptivly good for it's price and availability), banishing light (if you find yourself wanting more O-rings in your meta and you want to dodge things like surgical and meddling mage), eidolon of rhetoric (once again for a combo heavy meta and say ethersworn isnt enough or it dies to something like bolt, this is also a great card against artificers intuition and eggs should you ever see it), tivadar's crusade (in case goblins becomes a thing again), and unexpectantly absent (fantastic removal in general and if you ever find yourself unable to take care of a permanent easily with targeted type hate this might be your best bet)
their are no real mistakes in this list, it all depends on your meta your mainboard choices. But this list can confidently bring you into legacy no problem.
Of all the cards you put in engineered explosives and tezzeret did some of the most work I have ever seen in a list like this. Now I know why you have it in their holy crap.
I played mostly against stoneblade and omnishow tonight and it ripped them apart, the only cards that underperformed where intuition (which was either countered or just never became relevant) kiora (who was never relevant except to eat one attack from a TNN) and urborg (which made me almost lose game 2 to omnishow who boarded in thoughtseize and ripped my bridge) but otherwise the list does a ton of work.
Of all the games I lost the ones I lost I couldnt find some way of keeping the opponent from attacking me, one of them was an engineered explosives that was force of willed and the other was omnishow cunning wishing in a way to remove my bridge with an emrakul on the board (I didnt find karakas in time). The one thing I will say is that not having armageddon isnt as horrible as I thought but at the same time the games I lost would have been won with an armageddon. Not having a boardwipe outside of EE also made me lose against omnishow that boarded in young pyromancers and boarded out emrakul (odd I know but it worked). Im thinking for the Bug version a damnation or two would be fantastic in the board or maybe toxic deluge, black suns zenith, etc would be nice to have somewhere (losing to two young pyromancers after blowing up 15 elementals feels bad). But otherwise I won most of my games with your list.
Also have you thought of a Helm of Obediance in the board for when you want leyline of the void? I put one in my board and it won a game for me, not on my own leyline but on an opponents rest in peace
Their are a fewc omments I could make on that list and card choices, one is the very high amount of duals and fetches in combination. The list I have been running uses only one fetch and three duals since we want to pack so many lands that do something. Maybe that approach is better maybe its worse, I need to load this list up and try it out to get a feel for it.
Second no smokestack? I can understand using engineered explosives as a sort of catch all but it is very mana intensive and isnt as one sided as smokestack in the matchups its good in, then again I was never a fan of EE since I hated that it blew up our lock pieces to begin with.
Kiora also seems like she could be a fantastic finisher but otherwise she doenst hit our biggest aggro threat, true name nemesis, although it would be nice in the stoneblade matchup regardless since batterskull does present a clock.
My only other concern is the lack of ability to turn on ensnaring bridge when you need it. I cant think of anything that would be too too good in a list like this except for maybe something like... Null Brooch? Knowledge Vault? I am stumped how you could turn on bridge when you need to in this list.
Otherwise this list takes a very different approach, and seems like of all the lists I've seen or worked on this one could kill the quickest with the threat of tezzerets card advantage and ultimate especially combined with thopter foundry you could potentially close out games incredibly easily compare to how grindy my original list is.
Also last question, would you like this list to be added to the primer as another deck option for this archetype?
You make some incredibly good points about the list and in all honesty I can see some merit in every point you made especially your comments about garruk and bottled cloister. Garruk was shoved in to deal with our stoneblade matchup, being that we have no real way to answer an early stoneforge mystic except for garruk, if you know anything better I would love to hear about it! As for bottled cloister its not actually for discard at all but merely a way to turn on bridge while giving us card advantage at the same time, meaning if we need to dig for a tabernacle or something to win the game with we can keep the opponent fenced in with bridge while generating card advantage. Our only instant speed interaction already being played out like maze of ith and the like. I for one think it's fantastic only because other sources of artifact card draw just aren't that good. The tomes being especially bad.
Besides all that though, the list you posted looks hilariously fun! The abyss itself being a mini-smokestack that dodges things like ancient grudge and krosan grip is all too enticing! As well as your take with intuition is a line of thought that seemingly went right over my head! I think however, that their may be room for multiple interpretations of this list since if you do cut white you miss on supreme verdict and council's judgement as well as karakas which are hilariously good cards, being able to mainboard answer show and tell, reanimator, and to a lesser extent death and taxes (thalia and mangara). Maybe your interpretation is better maybe not but I definitely am going to play around with your list because all in all I like the thought of throwing TNN into the abyss
I would appreciate an in depth card explanation whenever you have the time. And thank you for the complement.
(edit) Oh I didnt notice you also ran karakas, so just as a colorless source I guess. That card is dumb good in this kind of list
4 Dream Salvage
4 Dark Ritual
2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Wistful Thinking
3 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Words of Waste
4 Underground Sea
3 Swamp
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Words of Wind
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Loreseeker's Stone
It looks and plays gooby as all heck but ive done some horribly unfair things to people. Most of my testing thus far has been against omnishow and that matchup looks good but I took som inspiration from enchantress here with a full lockdown with words of wind, words of waste and loreseekers stone. It's way grindier and wants to just generate value with waste not rather than get huge empty the pits out. Most of the time I won with either snapcaster beats alongside a few skeletons while they just couldnt hold on to any cards and anything they actually made stick either died to a liliana or words of wind to care of it. What do you take from this?
hell since your running green anyways you can run collected company to put the creatures you need out at instant speed EoT if they tap out for something like a jace then you can play something like flight spellbomb, soaring seacliff (uncounterable give someone flying (ok not uncounterable but really only stifle)) or sapphire charm to send an infinite toughness flyer to their face. This would also allow you to cut out black unless you really want to run it and if you decide to run things like sapphire charm you can run blue then too to protect your combo and run some fantastic card selection which I would think would be more important than discard. Since this would win that turn you can also afford to run something like pact of negation instead of force of will to protect it.
Since assault formation can also allow defenders to attack you can also run things like wall of omens or wall of blossoms to not only dig but give you a 4/4 beater for 2. But that would be more or less a plan B if you know you can win with beats quicker than you could win with the combo.
I would personally avoid doran or any aggro type of win condition since you can win much more safely with this concept than that.
Have you considered a 2/2 or 1/3 split with city of traitors? That might give you more breathing room in case you NEED that sphere out now but casting it with tomb would kill you.