How about Tolarian just come off the banlist? The RC states they don't want people accidentally ruining games. No one is accidentally dropping 10 artifacts and then tapping a Tolarian Academy. Besides, Sharuum would be so happy.
Yeah man, I'd love to be able to play with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth / Cabal Coffers in mono green. That'd be insane. They're both colorless (in fact, Urborg is legal in every deck already) but the B in Coffers prevents non-black from running it. In fact, I can run any lands in any deck!
I'm just posting this decklist here mostly for my own reference. I'm not necessarily looking for suggestions, but if you would like to give one (specifically with newer cards that I may not have thought to put in), you may.
This is a five color Commander deck that focuses on token production and control for a multiplayer environment. The goal is to win with either token swarm or with combo. It does this by using tokens as a resource for draw engines like Skullclamp and mana production like Phyrexian Altar.
Deck History
This deck actually started as a Ghave, Guru of Spores deck (found here) which I originally built to be a token/stax deck. This proved to be a bit unfun for my playgroup, so I removed most of the stax elements and it gradually became combo. Earthcraft and Doubling Season are great cards on their own, and I wish I could run them without the temptation of combo tugging at me each game. Unfortunately, I ended up winning with that combo whenever I could, simply because it was there. As you can imagine, this also proved to be a bit too competitive for most of my playgroup so I vowed to build a simpler deck, one without many of the tutors and without Earthcraft, a deck whose goal was to kill with tokens and not with combo.
Red had some good things to offer, especially with the release of Theros and Commander 2013. Cards like Purphoros, God of the Forge, Xenagos, the Reveler and Marath, Will of the Wild were great for token decks so I chose to build Naya, but I wanted all the tutors from black. This inspired me to make a four color token deck by splashing red but using Sliver Queen as my general, a deck which can be found here. After quite a lot of playing this version, the deck has proved good but not as good as it could be. While blue doesn't have any good interactions with tokens, it does have a lot to offer in terms of tutor and card draw, so I've decided to make this a full five-colored deck.
Decklist
I find it's easiest to understand the way a deck works when it's sorted by each card's function, but right now I just have it by card type. I'll have lists sorted in other ways soon when the deck stops changing.
There are hundreds of mono-colored generals, quite a lot of dual-colored (and Theros is coming out with 10 dual-colored gods), but three-colored were pretty lacking. We could always use more Shards and Wedges. However, there are 0 four-colored legends and very few five-colored legends so I think at some point they should make a Commander product that allows these to be built.
If you're running tutors just to search up the same combo pieces each time, you're both a boring player AND a bad player. Realistically, a good player will use tutors to look for something depending on the board state, usually to find specific answers to threats already on the board or to find ways to play around or help ensure their combo first, like counterspells. Tutors just help thin out the deck a bit, like fetch lands and also help each of your cards be more relevant to prevent dead draws.
Can anyone explain to me why Panoptic Mirror is banned? I get that it + an extra turn card gives you infinite turns, but as far as things go in EDH I'd say that having an artifact that costs a minimum of 10 to give you that effect isn't that horrifying.
I kind of agree, this combo requires two cards (Panoptic Mirror and Time Warp) and also requires that for an entire turn, no one deals with the Mirror (or you give yourself an extra turn using a third card). Tooth and Nail is an instant win, 9 mana, and only uses one card. If Panoptic Mirror is banned, so should Tooth and Nail I think.
If you're playing other people, there will be irrational actions all over the place, or just plain bad actions. It's a little ridiculous to assume people are going to play like robots, or as though their life is on the line. It's a nice goal, but it's just completely impractical, especially in multiplayer.
His point, and one I agree with, is that it's a nice idea. Not everyone plays this way (obviously, or this thread wouldn't exist), but this is how people should play. I know our playgroup plays this way and we are a very content group.
And behind my position is the goal to keep the game of Magic the game of Magic cards and the things that they do, and not something else.
This is what I said earlier, which is that everything you do should really be about the cards. Ideally, it should all be about cards.
Politics does have its place though, which is this: to use other players' actions as a resource to help you win that game. Sure you can help others to take one person down, but not because you're mad at them for winning the past few games or because you dislike them or the deck they're playing. You do it because it will help you win. Politics should be used to help your best interest for that game, using your cards and not using threats of outside factors (bribes, quitting, violence... we had one guy who had to play what his frat brother told him to because it was pledge week!)
I'm curious how you solve the "problem" you see with these cards though. Do you kick people out of your group if they don't follow along with your norms? If they want to stop playing after you steal one of their creatures, do you "hang onto" that card until you see them again? Why not just "ban" all the "bad combo players" if this is such an issue for you?
Actually, many of us play uninteractive combo decks already, save for removal and wrath. We also don't have any players that scoop (unless they have to go and they do it without interfering with the game). There's one guy who will wrath or Armageddon instead of scooping and then just pass turn for the rest of the game, but at least this messes with everyone fairly equally. We have Bribery and Reanimate effects and Praetor's Grasp in our meta but no one ever scoops to discourage these cards.
Yeah scooping is in the rules, but only because sometimes people have to leave. Wizards can't make you stay and finish. If you want to leave, make sure it doesn't mess up the game for anyone. If someone has your Ulamog and you have to go, we'll all agree to just use a "token", we don't have to borrow your card. Scooping to influence future games is exploiting a rule Wizards had to make to deal with people leaving. Each game should be treated in isolation. Using threats of losing to dishearten your opponents from attacking you in the future is a strange social experiment, and you can do that with your cards, but not with a rules exploitation that can't be responded to.
But the superior choice isn't to grab Tooth and Nail. It's to grab All Is Dust, because you need to take into account Player B's ability to scoop at any time.
Oh yeah! Now I understand, you're saying cards that interact with my opponents cards (aka Bribery, Insurrection, Praetor's Grasp, Animate Dead, etc.) are incredibly volatile and dangerous to play in a group where a person or people scoop. From now on, I will only play combo decks that don't interact in such groups. Thanks for the heads up!
If there's a rule in the Magic rulebook that promotes more decision-intensive games where everybody gets to live longer, those are not rules that should be removed simply because they make some people "feel bad".
I have no problem with mutually assured destruction as long as it involves your cards. After all, this is a card game. If player A would win the game with his cards, and player B has an out with his cards (like paying all his or her life to Necropotence) then this kind of thing would be a little more acceptable. Sure it would still be manipulating the game without the intention to win, which I'm still very against but I could see it being a little more forgivable. However player B earned that out with his or her cards. You can't empower each player with "Lose the game: target winner of the game does not win instead" at instant speed every game.
Basically, players win and lose the game with their cards. Standing up and walking away is not doing that within the card game.
It might be a strategically neutral decision in that it doesn't benefit me either way but that doesn't mean it's a neutral decision overall. I lose either way, if I stay in the game the other player wins and the game ends, if I scoop the other player does not win and the game still ends for me. One situation ends the game entirely, the other allows everyone else to keep on playing. Which is more fun; Playing EDH or not playing EDH?
One of those situations is you losing and having to watch everyone struggle to still deal with the threat and maybe even still lose to it. Great, you dragged the game on. That's like casting Apocalypse and then passing turn for the rest of the game because you can't draw lands. The other situation is everyone loses to the player who successfully won the game using his cards and you ALL get to play again. Which is more fun, playing EDH or not playing EDH?
*Drops mic*
*Gets banned from mtgsalvation*
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Wurmcoil Engine
Sorcery (12)
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Pyroclasm
4 Sylvan Scrying
Artifact (20)
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Chromatic Star
4 Expedition Map
4 Oblivion Stone
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Karn Liberated
Land (20)
2 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Eye of Ugin
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Urza's Tower
2 Torpor Orb
3 Spellskite
1 Sundering Titan
1 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Nature's Claim
2 Mindslaver
1 Firespout
1 Ghost Quarter
Illustration by Ron Spencer
Introduction
This is a five color Commander deck that focuses on token production and control for a multiplayer environment. The goal is to win with either token swarm or with combo. It does this by using tokens as a resource for draw engines like Skullclamp and mana production like Phyrexian Altar.
Deck History
This deck actually started as a Ghave, Guru of Spores deck (found here) which I originally built to be a token/stax deck. This proved to be a bit unfun for my playgroup, so I removed most of the stax elements and it gradually became combo. Earthcraft and Doubling Season are great cards on their own, and I wish I could run them without the temptation of combo tugging at me each game. Unfortunately, I ended up winning with that combo whenever I could, simply because it was there. As you can imagine, this also proved to be a bit too competitive for most of my playgroup so I vowed to build a simpler deck, one without many of the tutors and without Earthcraft, a deck whose goal was to kill with tokens and not with combo.
Red had some good things to offer, especially with the release of Theros and Commander 2013. Cards like Purphoros, God of the Forge, Xenagos, the Reveler and Marath, Will of the Wild were great for token decks so I chose to build Naya, but I wanted all the tutors from black. This inspired me to make a four color token deck by splashing red but using Sliver Queen as my general, a deck which can be found here. After quite a lot of playing this version, the deck has proved good but not as good as it could be. While blue doesn't have any good interactions with tokens, it does have a lot to offer in terms of tutor and card draw, so I've decided to make this a full five-colored deck.
Decklist
I find it's easiest to understand the way a deck works when it's sorted by each card's function, but right now I just have it by card type. I'll have lists sorted in other ways soon when the deck stops changing.
1 Sliver Queen
Creature (6)
1 Academy Rector
1 Marath, Will of the Wild
1 Mentor of the Meek
1 Mirror Entity
1 Nin, the Pain Artist
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
Artifact (9)
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Expedition Map
1 Grim Monolith
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Diamond
1 Phyrexian Altar
1 Skullclamp
1 Sol Ring
Enchantment (15)
1 Aura Shards
1 Awakening Zone
1 Bitterblossom
1 Doubling Season
1 Exploration
1 Fecundity
1 Luminarch Ascension
1 Mana Echoes
1 Necropotence
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Parallel Lives
1 Purphoros, God of the Forge
1 Sterling Grove
1 Stranglehold
1 Sylvan Library
Sorcery (14)
1 Armageddon
1 Decree of Pain
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Fabricate
1 Genesis Wave
1 Idyllic Tutor
1 Nature's Lore
1 Past in Flames
1 Praetor's Grasp
1 Sylvan Scrying
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Beast Within
1 Chord of Calling
1 Crop Rotation
1 Eladamri's Call
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Lim-Dul's Vault
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Pyroblast
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Vampiric Tutor
Planeswalker (7)
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Xenagos, the Reveler
Lands (37)
Dual Lands (10)
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
Shock Lands (10)
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Godless Shrine
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Temple Garden
1 Watery Grave
1 Steam Vents
1 Breeding Pool
1 Blood Crypt
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
1 Arid Mesa
1 Windswept Heath
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
Utility Lands (7)
1 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Brass
1 Command Tower
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Strip Mine
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Cabal Coffers
1 Nin, the Pain Artist
1 Boros Charm
1 Eternal Witness
1 Damnation
1 Austere Command
1 Sun Titan
-Eternal Witness, Grave Pact, Diabolic Tutor, Austere Command, Sun Titan, Damnation, Mycoloth, Read the Bones, Ghave, Guru of Spores
+Marath, Will of the Wild, Nin, the Pain Artist, Bitterblossom, Fabricate, Toxic Deluge, Lim-Dul's Vault, Pyroblast, Mystical Tutor, Tezzeret the Seeker
Don't forget Steelshaper's Gift! Seems like a good interaction with Marath, Will of the Wild, nice find.
I kind of agree, this combo requires two cards (Panoptic Mirror and Time Warp) and also requires that for an entire turn, no one deals with the Mirror (or you give yourself an extra turn using a third card). Tooth and Nail is an instant win, 9 mana, and only uses one card. If Panoptic Mirror is banned, so should Tooth and Nail I think.
His point, and one I agree with, is that it's a nice idea. Not everyone plays this way (obviously, or this thread wouldn't exist), but this is how people should play. I know our playgroup plays this way and we are a very content group.
This is what I said earlier, which is that everything you do should really be about the cards. Ideally, it should all be about cards.
Politics does have its place though, which is this: to use other players' actions as a resource to help you win that game. Sure you can help others to take one person down, but not because you're mad at them for winning the past few games or because you dislike them or the deck they're playing. You do it because it will help you win. Politics should be used to help your best interest for that game, using your cards and not using threats of outside factors (bribes, quitting, violence... we had one guy who had to play what his frat brother told him to because it was pledge week!)
Actually, many of us play uninteractive combo decks already, save for removal and wrath. We also don't have any players that scoop (unless they have to go and they do it without interfering with the game). There's one guy who will wrath or Armageddon instead of scooping and then just pass turn for the rest of the game, but at least this messes with everyone fairly equally. We have Bribery and Reanimate effects and Praetor's Grasp in our meta but no one ever scoops to discourage these cards.
Yeah scooping is in the rules, but only because sometimes people have to leave. Wizards can't make you stay and finish. If you want to leave, make sure it doesn't mess up the game for anyone. If someone has your Ulamog and you have to go, we'll all agree to just use a "token", we don't have to borrow your card. Scooping to influence future games is exploiting a rule Wizards had to make to deal with people leaving. Each game should be treated in isolation. Using threats of losing to dishearten your opponents from attacking you in the future is a strange social experiment, and you can do that with your cards, but not with a rules exploitation that can't be responded to.
Oh yeah! Now I understand, you're saying cards that interact with my opponents cards (aka Bribery, Insurrection, Praetor's Grasp, Animate Dead, etc.) are incredibly volatile and dangerous to play in a group where a person or people scoop. From now on, I will only play combo decks that don't interact in such groups. Thanks for the heads up!
I have no problem with mutually assured destruction as long as it involves your cards. After all, this is a card game. If player A would win the game with his cards, and player B has an out with his cards (like paying all his or her life to Necropotence) then this kind of thing would be a little more acceptable. Sure it would still be manipulating the game without the intention to win, which I'm still very against but I could see it being a little more forgivable. However player B earned that out with his or her cards. You can't empower each player with "Lose the game: target winner of the game does not win instead" at instant speed every game.
Basically, players win and lose the game with their cards. Standing up and walking away is not doing that within the card game.
One of those situations is you losing and having to watch everyone struggle to still deal with the threat and maybe even still lose to it. Great, you dragged the game on. That's like casting Apocalypse and then passing turn for the rest of the game because you can't draw lands. The other situation is everyone loses to the player who successfully won the game using his cards and you ALL get to play again. Which is more fun, playing EDH or not playing EDH?