The issue with pod is not whether or not answers exist to foil it.
Pods problem was anytime wizards printed a really good creature it slotted directly into pod. Truly it is a shame because Birthing pod was a really fun deck with a lot of different lines of play. It just had to die because unless wizards had a change of heart and decided to stop printing good creatures the deck would just continue to get better.
But even strong creatures can still be tutored with relative ease. eldritch evolution seems just as effective if you're gunning for a 4-6 drop with access to delve creatures. chord of calling is still just as punishing at instant speed.
I don't feel like coco puts a ceiling on what they can stick on a 3 drop. It's also a different card type, and it's way more explosive as opposed to slow
Advantage once you get a persist creature down.
I'm just not sure I see the Pod argument. The card doesn't seem that oppressive to me. Does it force artificial tempo to respect a combo engine like twin or drop an obscene board state for free like pre ban eldrazi?
Was it a consistency issue? I can kind of see that argument in that 1 sideboard hate card would always come in to play if you ran it at 4 tutors and a copy...but I'm already doing this in elves every game 2/3 with ease. I mean developing a slow grind you engine with an eventual win con compared to strats like 8 rack or storm seem pretty innocent to me.
No deck could play a value-town game while threatening an instant win better than Pod, and that includes Twin. The deck got to run every silver bullet counter because that's how the deck worked and was incredibly consistent in every game. It was the right mana cost to not get Decay-ed while being able to sneak under a counterspell when on the play, so it was in play unmolested quite a bit. The deck even ran 2 seperate infinite combos at one point (finks melira seer along with spike feeder+ archangel of thune) just because having to defend against its ability to reload a combo was exhausting. The deck wasn't a quick I win combo, but it could consistently represent both a scary boardstate and instant win combos multiple times throughout a game, which usually led to the opponent being either grinded out or combo-ed out when they did go all in.
This is my decklist. I've been experimenting with a great deal of things in it and have made some unconventional choices because of it. SB has an Anger and 2 Magma Spray because of Pod's prevalence and the extra removal is good vs the aggressive decks. Leyline of Sanctity has also been an all-star, especially against the BGx decks and Burn.
I've been considering moving a Keranos to the main for a Mana Leak and putting something else in the SB, thoughts on that?
I've read that Dredge has the best G1 in Legacy. What gives Dredge the stronger G1 vs fast combo decks like Reanimator/SnT?
I think it's reliability combined with disruption. The deck is surprisingly resilient to all types of G1 hate (Counterspells, DRS, removal) and can rip opponent's hands apart with reusable hand disruption. No other deck combines consistency, speed, resilience, and disruption in the same package.
Ashen Ghoul tends to be better in Quadlazer style builds though. Usually 1 black mana is easier to get in a bad situation than 3 creatures above a Nether Shadow.
Liliana Vess is way too high cmc and doesn't do enough when it comes down to merit a board slot. Entreat seems way too inconsistent with no deck manipulation (and is really bad with Bob). Bonfire has merit, but I still don't really like it.
I'm not sure if I should be posting this here as it is not competitive, but don't know where else to go for feedback. My dredge deck for more causal play.
Thoughts on a couple of cards.
1 Deep Analysis - Seems great after you start dredging to keep your chain going. Not much luck in practicing it since only 1 and I usually do cast it from the grave. Should I have more? Anyone test this card?
Is Three DR the correct number for a deck built like mine?
1 Ashen Rider. Works pretty well. I don't have Iona or Gris to compete with it's spot. Am I missing an obvious card here?
4 Probe Should that be a Street Wraith split here?
1 Sphinx of the Chimes- Mostly for fun. Can go off and dredge the whole deck. Again I don't have gristle or the big bad angel for it's spot.
4 Ichorid- not sure 4 is correct. Should I go 3? Or Run 4 and do the street wraiths instead of probe? Probe is better with therapy considering I can't guess what is in hand in thses casual games I play
1 Lonely Sandbar- Like I said before. Casual and then I wanted another land in the deck.
Thanks for any and all help.
I'm not sure if I should be posting this here as it is not competitive, but don't know where else to go for feedback. My dredge deck for more causal play.
Thoughts on a couple of cards.
1 Deep Analysis - Seems great after you start dredging to keep your chain going. Not much luck in practicing it since only 1 and I usually do cast it from the grave. Should I have more? Anyone test this card?
Is Three DR the correct number for a deck built like mine?
1 Ashen Rider. Works pretty well. I don't have Iona or Gris to compete with it's spot. Am I missing an obvious card here?
4 Probe Should that be a Street Wraith split here?
1 Sphinx of the Chimes- Mostly for fun. Can go off and dredge the whole deck. Again I don't have gristle or the big bad angel for it's spot.
4 Ichorid- not sure 4 is correct. Should I go 3? Or Run 4 and do the street wraiths instead of probe? Probe is better with therapy considering I can't guess what is in hand in thses casual games I play
1 Lonely Sandbar- Like I said before. Casual and then I wanted another land in the deck.
Thanks for any and all help.
Lonely Sandbar and Deep Analysis seem worse in general than Careful Study and Faithless Looting. With no LEDs I can see why you don't want Looting, but Careful Study almost needs to be in there.
Street Wraith is 95% better because you can exile it to Ichorid and it can be done at instant speed to stop DRS activations. Seeing their hand can be nice, but you can usually Cabal multiple times in a turn so that shouldn't be a problem.
Instead of Sphinx, you can always use Whirlpool Rider. It tends to be more consistent since you said you don't have Griselbrand.
Yeah a few more games in and they are also really bad vs electrolyze and I actually just got destroyed by a burn deck with keldon megaliths, which shut down basically my whole deck...
It does also suck knowing you level either and they'll just get bolted
Brimaz is a massive addition to your deck. Almost always commands either a Path or a 2 for 1 removal-wise.
It could be a possible replacement for the 1-of Thrun MB or SB.
Personally, I run a singleton Thrun MB. He's a tank, certainly mid- and lategame.
My list is a bit more midrange, though.
Reaper costs the same, has a bigger butt (can block 4/5 goyfs and batterskull), can improve draws, can act as pseudo-removal and by the time he lands we should be able to keep 2 mana open for hexproof.
Thoughts or opinions?
I think Reaper is not anywhere where this deck wants to be. Goyf tends to be bigger and, if this deck is casting 4 drops, they need to have immediate impact or give some insane advantage (Bloodbraid does both). If you want to run a 4 drop like that, Thrun just does everything better (1 extra toughness doesn't matter when you can regenerate Thrun, and uncounterable is a massive upside that Reaper doesn't have.
This deck doesn't really need lategame threats, which is why I don't like Thrun in the deck. Reaper definitely isn't where we want to be though.
I usually play Bob first if I don't know what I'm playing against. Like Underground/Volcanic into a Ponder doesn't give me a lot of information, so I run the Bob out first in a blind scenario.
I must have missed something when I was writing it all out. I know that I am only playing 3 Liliana though, I will have to get another one.
I will change one of those Bolts into a Charm. I could see those being helpful in the main deck. Thanks for the info about the sideboard as well, I'll make the changes accordingly.
How does the play style of this deck change when heading into an open meta instead of knowing what you are going to face-up against. (ex: If I knew my meta was all face combo decks, I'm guessing my play style would change compared to playing against a wide array of decks)
I've been in situations where I head into an SCG against a wide open meta and in local shops where I know exactly what I will be going up against.
I play the same way each time. Thoughtseize before DRS, Bob over Goyf. What usually changes G1 is how I mulligan. If a hand is both slow and light on disruption, Bob, Lilly, Decay, BBE, and 4 lands (would crush Stoneblade but stumbles against combo)I will mull it if I know my meta is mostly combo.
In an open meta I will be less aggressive on mulligans but will prioritize hands with Thoughtseize. 2 lands, a Thoughtseize, and 4 other spells tends to be a keep when I don't know who I'm facing.
Brimaz is better vs. Bolt and Brimaz is better before turn 5. Basically every removal spell in the format kills the rat. Brimaz also functions better vs. a deck like Twin where you want to keep a hand full of answers while still providing pressure.
I am not at all sold on the rat, I think he's too slow and too mana intensive for a removal heavy format like Modern. He works well in standard because the removal is both heavily costed (3 mana though there are some conditional removal spells on 2) and not in the same quantity as Modern decks (decks like Jund and UWR run 12+ ways of killing the rat the turn he comes out or the turn after).
Hey folks,
I'm rather new to Legacy. I've recently moved to a new city and they don't play Modern (my usual format) and instead they play Legacy so I put this deck together. I'm not sure what the meta at my local game store is, so I tried to have a sideboard that I thought (from my limited experience) could help with most things. Please let me know what you guys think. I know that we usually have trouble with combo match-ups so maybe I need more to help with those matchups?
Without further adieu, here's what I put together. (Yes I know I have some weird fetches in there, I just don't have full sets of what I need).
I count only 59 cards MD, so you should have another card there.
Personally, I think 3 Bolt/3 Fire/3 Decay isn't the best number. 4 Decay or 3 Decay and 1 Golgari Charm with 2 Bolts tend to be the correct split (due to Decay being absolutely bonkers in Legacy and Bolt being good but not incredible). 4 Liliana is also 100% needed, she is one of the best cards in the deck.
Sideboard is standard except for the Disfigures. With Punishing Fire, Bolt, and Decay already MD, this card is very out of place. I would recommend turning them into 1 Grafdiggers and 1 Pithing Needle.
Terminate and Path are equal in my eyes. They both kill Goyfs just fine. I personally run 2/1 split of Path/Terminate. You could do a 2/2 split if you have room however.
On topic, how does fight tempo/control decks with burn in them? I've noticed that Twin/UWR Control/Delver just burn you to death if they can't win through plan A. Is there some way we can fight this? Maybe Leyline of Sactity?
One of the largest differences between Path and Terminate is the tempo advantage that Path gives. If I need to keep up mana for removal but also want to play threats, I can do it a turn faster with Path. Deploying a Bob with Path in hand on T3 is stronger than Bob with Terminate in hand T4. It works the same way when you want to double up removal spells. Helix+Terminate requires 2 Red sources along with a Black and a White where Helix+Path just needs double White, which is simple to have when playing a card like Brimaz (the mana base is already built to handle it).
Leyline requires a massive commitment (3-4 spaces in the SB) in order for it to be effective. Since we're a deck that is resilient to hand disruption, the Leyline plan takes up WAY too many slots in the SB. Your best bet is just Lightning Helix+Ajani. If you construct your mana base in a way that you are not fetch+Shocking yourself every turn of the game, the burn plan becomes something that is fairly easy to play around. 2 Batterskull in the SB is your best bet if you want additional lifegain. Between Ajani, Batterskull, and Lightning Helix, I haven't had a massive problem with the URX Tempo decks.
I'm not sure I like the Blood moon approach. Mainboard blood moon can get you some free wins, but it is also incredibly meta dependent. After the last pro tour, where Blue Moon became a thing, most decks are prepared for the card.
I'm not sure I agree with you. I think that Blue Moon actually just pointed out how absurdly strong blood moon is. Most decks in the format cannot actually prepare adequately for blood moon. Is pod going to be able to only fetch basics and still cast their three colors effectively? Probably not. Can a UWR deck cast a cryptic command with a blood moon in play? Probably not. People play incredibly greedy mana costs in their decks, and can therefore not play around blood moon without fundamentally changing their deck makeup.
Blood moon is not just a free win or nothing card. It shuts off manlands, tec edge, and heavily constrains opponents mana, even if it doesn't completely lock them out. This makes it useful in practically every matchup.
Really not sold on the main deck blood moon ... and as a 4 of ... and the 11 fetch with bob will just kill ourself to death... Liliana will be hard to cast... i also like having hero of bladehold or brimaz as beater .... have not tested it but really not sold on the idea
While 11 fetches and bob might look like a lot of lifeloss, remember we are almost always fetching basics. This means we are only losing little chunks of life instead of bolting ourselves. Additionally, we are playing lightning helix, Ajani vengeant, and batterskull. This basically completely negates the lifeloss of fetching a few basics and flipping a few cards off of bob. If bob is threatening us, we have a ton of removal to get rid of our own dark confidant.
Additionally, we have 8 fetches for basic swamps and 4 basic swamps, and liliana is the only double single color casting cost. If you properly sequence your fetches this should almost never be a problem. Hands with lili and blood moon can go t1 fetch crypt, fetch basic, basic, cast lili, then cast moon. Not playing cards like brimaz and bladehold makes the mana much, much better.
I just have found brimaz and hero not impactful enough against most top tier decks. goyf blocks and kills both with no sweat, they provide no card advantage without attacking, and are pretty expensive counter targets.
Blood moon is certainly worth testing before dismissing.
I agree that Blood Moon is a very strong card. It may be greedy in and of itself to play it in a 3 color deck though. Your card choices are very sound and the amount of basics+fetches means that Blood Moon will not hit you very hard, but in play-testing the version that you have, I have run into sequencing problems. For example, Lightning Bolt--->Helix--->Blood Moon tends to shut off access to Liliana and sometimes even Bob. Delaying the Blood Moon can greatly reduce its value and cutting oneself off of a threat like that can be very detrimental to a grindy gameplan.
I think Blood Moon vs no Blood Moon is very meta dependant. Decks like Tarmo Twin, Pod, and Scapeshift will cry, but many BG Rock and Affinity decks will laugh as they continue through the stomp.
Liliana and Brimaz are pretty easy to cast with 2 Fetid Heath in the deck imo.
True, how many heath do you play? The problem I'd see is you won't always draw it, and if you play it as a 3-4 of, you risk having two of them in your opener with no other lands. Either that or one of them and a utility land that won't work with it.
2 has been just fine imo. You won't always have Lily and Brimaz in your hand, and the Heaths aren't needed in order to cast both, they just help a lot when you do have them.
No deck could play a value-town game while threatening an instant win better than Pod, and that includes Twin. The deck got to run every silver bullet counter because that's how the deck worked and was incredibly consistent in every game. It was the right mana cost to not get Decay-ed while being able to sneak under a counterspell when on the play, so it was in play unmolested quite a bit. The deck even ran 2 seperate infinite combos at one point (finks melira seer along with spike feeder+ archangel of thune) just because having to defend against its ability to reload a combo was exhausting. The deck wasn't a quick I win combo, but it could consistently represent both a scary boardstate and instant win combos multiple times throughout a game, which usually led to the opponent being either grinded out or combo-ed out when they did go all in.
4x Arid Mesa
4x Celestial Colonnade
2x Hallowed Fountain
3x Island
1x Mountain
1x Plains
1x Sacred Foundry
4x Scalding Tarn
3x Steam Vents
2x Tectonic Edge
3x Electrolyze
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Lightning Helix
2x Mana Leak
4x Path to Exile
3x Remand
2x Spell Snare
Creature (13)
4x Geist of Saint Traft
4x Restoration Angel
4x Snapcaster Mage
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Anger of the Gods
1x Batterskull
1x Celestial Purge
1x Combust
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Keranos, God of Storms
4x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Magma Spray
2x Wear / Tear
This is my decklist. I've been experimenting with a great deal of things in it and have made some unconventional choices because of it. SB has an Anger and 2 Magma Spray because of Pod's prevalence and the extra removal is good vs the aggressive decks. Leyline of Sanctity has also been an all-star, especially against the BGx decks and Burn.
I've been considering moving a Keranos to the main for a Mana Leak and putting something else in the SB, thoughts on that?
I think it's reliability combined with disruption. The deck is surprisingly resilient to all types of G1 hate (Counterspells, DRS, removal) and can rip opponent's hands apart with reusable hand disruption. No other deck combines consistency, speed, resilience, and disruption in the same package.
It's the SB cards that kill this gameplan.
Lonely Sandbar and Deep Analysis seem worse in general than Careful Study and Faithless Looting. With no LEDs I can see why you don't want Looting, but Careful Study almost needs to be in there.
Street Wraith is 95% better because you can exile it to Ichorid and it can be done at instant speed to stop DRS activations. Seeing their hand can be nice, but you can usually Cabal multiple times in a turn so that shouldn't be a problem.
Instead of Sphinx, you can always use Whirlpool Rider. It tends to be more consistent since you said you don't have Griselbrand.
Brimaz is a massive addition to your deck. Almost always commands either a Path or a 2 for 1 removal-wise.
I think Reaper is not anywhere where this deck wants to be. Goyf tends to be bigger and, if this deck is casting 4 drops, they need to have immediate impact or give some insane advantage (Bloodbraid does both). If you want to run a 4 drop like that, Thrun just does everything better (1 extra toughness doesn't matter when you can regenerate Thrun, and uncounterable is a massive upside that Reaper doesn't have.
This deck doesn't really need lategame threats, which is why I don't like Thrun in the deck. Reaper definitely isn't where we want to be though.
I've been in situations where I head into an SCG against a wide open meta and in local shops where I know exactly what I will be going up against.
I play the same way each time. Thoughtseize before DRS, Bob over Goyf. What usually changes G1 is how I mulligan. If a hand is both slow and light on disruption, Bob, Lilly, Decay, BBE, and 4 lands (would crush Stoneblade but stumbles against combo)I will mull it if I know my meta is mostly combo.
In an open meta I will be less aggressive on mulligans but will prioritize hands with Thoughtseize. 2 lands, a Thoughtseize, and 4 other spells tends to be a keep when I don't know who I'm facing.
I am not at all sold on the rat, I think he's too slow and too mana intensive for a removal heavy format like Modern. He works well in standard because the removal is both heavily costed (3 mana though there are some conditional removal spells on 2) and not in the same quantity as Modern decks (decks like Jund and UWR run 12+ ways of killing the rat the turn he comes out or the turn after).
I count only 59 cards MD, so you should have another card there.
Personally, I think 3 Bolt/3 Fire/3 Decay isn't the best number. 4 Decay or 3 Decay and 1 Golgari Charm with 2 Bolts tend to be the correct split (due to Decay being absolutely bonkers in Legacy and Bolt being good but not incredible). 4 Liliana is also 100% needed, she is one of the best cards in the deck.
Sideboard is standard except for the Disfigures. With Punishing Fire, Bolt, and Decay already MD, this card is very out of place. I would recommend turning them into 1 Grafdiggers and 1 Pithing Needle.
One of the largest differences between Path and Terminate is the tempo advantage that Path gives. If I need to keep up mana for removal but also want to play threats, I can do it a turn faster with Path. Deploying a Bob with Path in hand on T3 is stronger than Bob with Terminate in hand T4. It works the same way when you want to double up removal spells. Helix+Terminate requires 2 Red sources along with a Black and a White where Helix+Path just needs double White, which is simple to have when playing a card like Brimaz (the mana base is already built to handle it).
Leyline requires a massive commitment (3-4 spaces in the SB) in order for it to be effective. Since we're a deck that is resilient to hand disruption, the Leyline plan takes up WAY too many slots in the SB. Your best bet is just Lightning Helix+Ajani. If you construct your mana base in a way that you are not fetch+Shocking yourself every turn of the game, the burn plan becomes something that is fairly easy to play around. 2 Batterskull in the SB is your best bet if you want additional lifegain. Between Ajani, Batterskull, and Lightning Helix, I haven't had a massive problem with the URX Tempo decks.
I agree that Blood Moon is a very strong card. It may be greedy in and of itself to play it in a 3 color deck though. Your card choices are very sound and the amount of basics+fetches means that Blood Moon will not hit you very hard, but in play-testing the version that you have, I have run into sequencing problems. For example, Lightning Bolt--->Helix--->Blood Moon tends to shut off access to Liliana and sometimes even Bob. Delaying the Blood Moon can greatly reduce its value and cutting oneself off of a threat like that can be very detrimental to a grindy gameplan.
I think Blood Moon vs no Blood Moon is very meta dependant. Decks like Tarmo Twin, Pod, and Scapeshift will cry, but many BG Rock and Affinity decks will laugh as they continue through the stomp.
2 has been just fine imo. You won't always have Lily and Brimaz in your hand, and the Heaths aren't needed in order to cast both, they just help a lot when you do have them.