@Nate: I'm not really interested in waiting to cast Divination until t5-6, if that's what you're trying to say.
Now that spoilers have made it out as of last night, Dictate of Kruphix was a card I was looking at.
However, I'd like some input on others who have been playing standard control longer than I have. Was Howling Mine/Jace Beleren feasible in control decks back in the day? Will EoT Howling Mine really make it that much better than regular Howling Mine?
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Font of Fortunes seems to be an auto include. I'm just going to assume that it's better than any of our other cheap draw spells to save time. This paired with Dictate of Kruphix would make me think that maybe we want to find some sort of U devotion kill? Master was bounced around in some UB "control" lists (read: MBD splashing U).
I was digging through old Chapin lists and saw that he was running Life's Finale at a GP. Extinguish All Hope is no Life's Finale. It's considerably worse. However, this isn't a format where people are ramping into titans, dumping 10 mana into a Kessig Wolf Run, animating Inkmoth, and lethaling you. So will it do? This will need a lot of testing, which I'll get to.
How are we going to draw cards without Opportunity? Jace will usually get you 2 cards max without protection. Divination gets you 2 and taps you out. I'm not sold on Inspiration either but Divination isn't exactly strictly better than Inspiration.
Also, returning to cards is not necessarily a bad thing. Different viewpoints bring up different ideas. Metas change. Different cards get better or worse as a format evolves and changes depending on time and geography. Returning to cards is also valuable as people bring different build strategies to the table. Inspiration might not belong in a tap-out/kill-your-stuff deck or a superfriends deck but could have a place in a counter-spell heavy deck.
Understanding that lists and ideas won't conform to yours in threads as brewery based as a semi-established control thread is what UBx threads and authors have had to deal with for months. Grasping that helps you give advice and develop your own lists. I suggest it.
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Newcomers will always bring up cards that have already have been dismissed as Johnny/Timmy cards. Giving them a response is a small sacrifice.
The trick with MBD is to top deck a bomb (like opportunity) g2 after they strip your hand, just like any other control deck (see: UWx). Sorry to leave it up to luck but that's how the 4/4 TS/Duress split works.
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Consuming Aberation is sort of like Master of Cruelties.
It's a really cool card and super functional.
However, both are glass cannons. We've got Aetherling, which, if resolved, won't die unless they've got a couple pieces of instant speed removal or you do dumb things with it (don't worry, I've done those dumb things too).
Aberation only has a place if you're playing it for FNM flavor win.
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Pretty sure we can't talk much about cards that haven't come out yet, sorry guys.
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GR monsters requires a hand with syncopate. Xenagos, PW is the most difficult PW to deal with since he's CA right out of the gate. We don't have DD to lock down the tokens and, if left unchecked, Xengaos will just kill you with 2/2s. Domri will get them cards but doesn't have to be dealt with until he's around 7 loyalty. The logic to approach a resolved Domri with is, I think: "would I kill Courser of Kruphix right now if this Domri was a Courser instead?" Both have a shot at 1 card a turn and one can attack for 2, which is negligible outside of the times when you're 10 life and lower.
Both of which are moderately late game draw (Jace going off the same turn at Inspiration).
The draw engine of the above deck is pretty refined IMO.
My only suggestion is to maybe consider Cyclonic Rift.
Hopefully, you never get in a position where you need to overload it.
However, an EoT overloaded Cyclonic Rift takes care of a lot of bad situations where you get behind (which will happen, whether your want to or not). You then untap and reset. It won't function like it does in Gu Prime Speaker decks or MUD decks, a pseudo-Bonfire #megatemposwing, but it does allow for mistakes. By running a bunch of counterspells, having a 'reset' button gives you a cushion for retrospectively bad keeps or mulls.
Good luck not dying to your mana base with 10 CIPT lands - 12 shocks.
Counter heavy decks probably need untapped lands in this meta so t2 syncopate is reliable.
3 colors always sounds super sweet, but CIPT lands support come-from behind spells, not stay ahead with answers spells.
When testing 3 colors, I really liked Unknown Shores due to the fact that t2 Syncopate was almost always happening. However, t3 Dissolve would sometimes be a problem.
For UB control tech, I've been fiddling with Trading Post as MD material. It's not... bad. And it allows some cool little artifacts for the SB that would be unplayable otherwise.
When INS brought up Ring of Three Wishes, my mind immediately went to the card as a way to reset it. However, the lists I've been brewing have been slow and leaning heavily on cards like Whelming Wave, just to buy time to set up Trading Post locks. Right now, there's a lot of JOU cards that I'm waiting for but with what we've got, I figure I'll just save time and let you all know that Trading Post is still a bottom table FNM card at best.
Ran the B/r devo list this weekend but lost round 4 to the Grixis devo list, for those interested.
His list faired very well against the mid-range/control room. The pilot told me he had Rakdos's Returned for 3-4 wins up until round 4. However, burn and aggro were non-existent in the room (maybe 4 decks out of 36), which skewed everybody's results.
It's a good list -- especially when preying on mid-range and control lists. I'm almost certain, however, that aggro is not a good time.
The guy who won said, "I started playing in Theros."
Not to hate on the guy, but it appeared as though he ran very hot.
It's not frustrating to see experienced players win with a good deck (Turtenwald's back to back GP's). It's fairly frustrating to see a hot run from a FNM level player take down a SCG.
That being said, isn't that -- an opportunity for FNM hero's to take down a big stage -- what SCG open's are there for? Sometimes lucksacking happens and it's frustrating for experienced players. But I figure it's sort of like David Tyree's helmet catch from Eli Manning's "Imma-just-throw-this-football-n-see" pass. Lucksacking happens and you gotta' celebrate when it happens for the little guy.
Unless the little guy is playing MBD. Then I guess not-celebrating and grouching about it is probably OK.
But I cannot come up with a list that doesn't just outright lose to Burn.
This is because you probably won't, while still having a great MU against Esper. Your deck can probably have a good G1 against Esper or Burn, but not both.
Maybe 3x Elixer? Sounds terrible and waiting to be skullcracked.
There are lots of decks you can play. There are lots of decks you can play and do well.
I started playing standard at the end of caw-blade. It wasn't very fun and I took a break until RtR.
Why wouldn't you want a format like this winter? Don't like your random losses? Mitigate them by playing well. You'll still take random losses, but it's up to you to marginalize your percentage.
This field, as far as I can tell, rewards people who are good at collecting information. Maybe I just wasn't thinking this way last winter, but it seems very apparent this year.
You can't cover your a-- in this format, just mitigate it with your SB and your MD flex spots (the big three have a few every weekend).
One of the most interesting things I've noticed about this format is how risk works in fields. When people play and brew conservatively, risk pays off. When people brew and play risky, conservative pays off. This has probably always existed in standard meta, I just never noticed it before.
Just messing with the list, the mana is god awful (as in, it hurts alot, you can cast spells on curve so there's that). Testing PR, the free wins are just too good to give up.
Against GR monsters, NvS is still fine. LBZ is a blowout, obviously, but the list has enough removal to not care.
You're splashing for: RR and Psychic Strike -- both high on the curve.
Making the aggro MU even worse.
Aggro isn't non-existent. Looking at Nestico's list I wonder, did he even face burn or any BTE decks? He didn't even have Pharika's Cure in the side.
MBD is a pretty finely tuned list with a couple spots that are in flux every weekend. EFro's decklist from last weekend is quite good, although just Br Devotion. 6 Shocklands can be a bit of a bad time when you're UCing yourself to death. 4 is probably more reasonable.
After testing, I'll just be running roughly EFro's list from this past weekend so I don't die to *literally* any deck running more than 4 two drops. So the tourney report won't go here.
Gatecrash developers:
1: "So, uh, do we wanna' make some good Dimir control cards?"
2: "Didn't we do a bunch of good control cards for Azorius?"
1: "Yea, yea, I guess we did."
2: "So, why don't we just do a buncha' cards centered around limited mill?"
1: "Sure, but we gotta' make sure they're under-powered so that Boros will actually have a fighting chance. We really gotta' make sure those cards aren't nerfed too hard."
2: "Ok, how about this. Rare; Sorcery; 2UB; Your opponent puts one card from the top of his library into his graveyard."
I do understand being underwhelmed by Lightning Helix, however.
I've been looking at building something along the lines of what Ketter has been running at the SCG opens.
What do people think about lowering the curve and dropping a land or two?
Is the mana not particularly great?
Why are some running Herald of Torment over Lifebane Zombie? With the bevy of fliers in the format, isn't LBZ just as much evasion?
Why are people running so much burn in their 60?
I'm just curious and looking for feedback before I start testing.
Now that spoilers have made it out as of last night, Dictate of Kruphix was a card I was looking at.
However, I'd like some input on others who have been playing standard control longer than I have. Was Howling Mine/Jace Beleren feasible in control decks back in the day? Will EoT Howling Mine really make it that much better than regular Howling Mine?
-------------
Font of Fortunes seems to be an auto include. I'm just going to assume that it's better than any of our other cheap draw spells to save time. This paired with Dictate of Kruphix would make me think that maybe we want to find some sort of U devotion kill? Master was bounced around in some UB "control" lists (read: MBD splashing U).
I was digging through old Chapin lists and saw that he was running Life's Finale at a GP. Extinguish All Hope is no Life's Finale. It's considerably worse. However, this isn't a format where people are ramping into titans, dumping 10 mana into a Kessig Wolf Run, animating Inkmoth, and lethaling you. So will it do? This will need a lot of testing, which I'll get to.
---------
How are we going to draw cards without Opportunity? Jace will usually get you 2 cards max without protection. Divination gets you 2 and taps you out. I'm not sold on Inspiration either but Divination isn't exactly strictly better than Inspiration.
Also, returning to cards is not necessarily a bad thing. Different viewpoints bring up different ideas. Metas change. Different cards get better or worse as a format evolves and changes depending on time and geography. Returning to cards is also valuable as people bring different build strategies to the table. Inspiration might not belong in a tap-out/kill-your-stuff deck or a superfriends deck but could have a place in a counter-spell heavy deck.
Understanding that lists and ideas won't conform to yours in threads as brewery based as a semi-established control thread is what UBx threads and authors have had to deal with for months. Grasping that helps you give advice and develop your own lists. I suggest it.
-------------
Newcomers will always bring up cards that have already have been dismissed as Johnny/Timmy cards. Giving them a response is a small sacrifice.
--------
Consuming Aberation is sort of like Master of Cruelties.
It's a really cool card and super functional.
However, both are glass cannons. We've got Aetherling, which, if resolved, won't die unless they've got a couple pieces of instant speed removal or you do dumb things with it (don't worry, I've done those dumb things too).
Aberation only has a place if you're playing it for FNM flavor win.
--------
Pretty sure we can't talk much about cards that haven't come out yet, sorry guys.
--------
GR monsters requires a hand with syncopate. Xenagos, PW is the most difficult PW to deal with since he's CA right out of the gate. We don't have DD to lock down the tokens and, if left unchecked, Xengaos will just kill you with 2/2s. Domri will get them cards but doesn't have to be dealt with until he's around 7 loyalty. The logic to approach a resolved Domri with is, I think: "would I kill Courser of Kruphix right now if this Domri was a Courser instead?" Both have a shot at 1 card a turn and one can attack for 2, which is negligible outside of the times when you're 10 life and lower.
3-4x Jace
4x Sphinx's Rev.
Both of which are moderately late game draw (Jace going off the same turn at Inspiration).
The draw engine of the above deck is pretty refined IMO.
My only suggestion is to maybe consider Cyclonic Rift.
Hopefully, you never get in a position where you need to overload it.
However, an EoT overloaded Cyclonic Rift takes care of a lot of bad situations where you get behind (which will happen, whether your want to or not). You then untap and reset. It won't function like it does in Gu Prime Speaker decks or MUD decks, a pseudo-Bonfire #megatemposwing, but it does allow for mistakes. By running a bunch of counterspells, having a 'reset' button gives you a cushion for retrospectively bad keeps or mulls.
Counter heavy decks probably need untapped lands in this meta so t2 syncopate is reliable.
3 colors always sounds super sweet, but CIPT lands support come-from behind spells, not stay ahead with answers spells.
When testing 3 colors, I really liked Unknown Shores due to the fact that t2 Syncopate was almost always happening. However, t3 Dissolve would sometimes be a problem.
For UB control tech, I've been fiddling with Trading Post as MD material. It's not... bad. And it allows some cool little artifacts for the SB that would be unplayable otherwise.
When INS brought up Ring of Three Wishes, my mind immediately went to the card as a way to reset it. However, the lists I've been brewing have been slow and leaning heavily on cards like Whelming Wave, just to buy time to set up Trading Post locks. Right now, there's a lot of JOU cards that I'm waiting for but with what we've got, I figure I'll just save time and let you all know that Trading Post is still a bottom table FNM card at best.
His list faired very well against the mid-range/control room. The pilot told me he had Rakdos's Returned for 3-4 wins up until round 4. However, burn and aggro were non-existent in the room (maybe 4 decks out of 36), which skewed everybody's results.
It's a good list -- especially when preying on mid-range and control lists. I'm almost certain, however, that aggro is not a good time.
Not to hate on the guy, but it appeared as though he ran very hot.
It's not frustrating to see experienced players win with a good deck (Turtenwald's back to back GP's). It's fairly frustrating to see a hot run from a FNM level player take down a SCG.
That being said, isn't that -- an opportunity for FNM hero's to take down a big stage -- what SCG open's are there for? Sometimes lucksacking happens and it's frustrating for experienced players. But I figure it's sort of like David Tyree's helmet catch from Eli Manning's "Imma-just-throw-this-football-n-see" pass. Lucksacking happens and you gotta' celebrate when it happens for the little guy.
Unless the little guy is playing MBD. Then I guess not-celebrating and grouching about it is probably OK.
This is because you probably won't, while still having a great MU against Esper. Your deck can probably have a good G1 against Esper or Burn, but not both.
Maybe 3x Elixer? Sounds terrible and waiting to be skullcracked.
I started playing standard at the end of caw-blade. It wasn't very fun and I took a break until RtR.
Why wouldn't you want a format like this winter? Don't like your random losses? Mitigate them by playing well. You'll still take random losses, but it's up to you to marginalize your percentage.
This field, as far as I can tell, rewards people who are good at collecting information. Maybe I just wasn't thinking this way last winter, but it seems very apparent this year.
You can't cover your a-- in this format, just mitigate it with your SB and your MD flex spots (the big three have a few every weekend).
One of the most interesting things I've noticed about this format is how risk works in fields. When people play and brew conservatively, risk pays off. When people brew and play risky, conservative pays off. This has probably always existed in standard meta, I just never noticed it before.
This format is super sweet.
Against GR monsters, NvS is still fine. LBZ is a blowout, obviously, but the list has enough removal to not care.
You're splashing for: RR and Psychic Strike -- both high on the curve.
Making the aggro MU even worse.
Aggro isn't non-existent. Looking at Nestico's list I wonder, did he even face burn or any BTE decks? He didn't even have Pharika's Cure in the side.
MBD is a pretty finely tuned list with a couple spots that are in flux every weekend. EFro's decklist from last weekend is quite good, although just Br Devotion. 6 Shocklands can be a bit of a bad time when you're UCing yourself to death. 4 is probably more reasonable.
After testing, I'll just be running roughly EFro's list from this past weekend so I don't die to *literally* any deck running more than 4 two drops. So the tourney report won't go here.
It avoids the Pack Rat plan (which is a good plan, but I hate the card).
I plays counterspells. It plays RR. It can still play mutavault.
I'd mess with the SB but the 75 looks awesome.
I was going to play GR monsters this weekend because I was comfortable with the deck but I'm definitely playing this now.
Aetherling in the SB? If monoblue can do it, yes please.
Edit: Need a lot of U for Aetherling. That was a terrible idea. I just beat y'all to it.
Probably needs a Mizzium Mortars in the side, just to shore up BBoV MUs. Though that card is, in general, always going to be a pain for MBD.
It doesn't play draw-go but I figure the times are a-changin'; I'm playing roughly this list for sure.
1: "So, uh, do we wanna' make some good Dimir control cards?"
2: "Didn't we do a bunch of good control cards for Azorius?"
1: "Yea, yea, I guess we did."
2: "So, why don't we just do a buncha' cards centered around limited mill?"
1: "Sure, but we gotta' make sure they're under-powered so that Boros will actually have a fighting chance. We really gotta' make sure those cards aren't nerfed too hard."
2: "Ok, how about this. Rare; Sorcery; 2UB; Your opponent puts one card from the top of his library into his graveyard."
1: "That's way too powerful. Make it 8UB."
This is why Grixis isn't competitive.
Add 1x Cryptic Command and 1x Shadow of Doubt MD.
I played angels for a bit and they never did what I wanted them to do.