On the earlier discussion on Restricted lists vs. Banned lists, there was consideration of moving stuff from the current banned list to a restricted list instead.
But what about moving some current things to a restricted list that aren't quite ban worthy, but still have problems like being much too efficient for their CMC?
What if something like these were included in a new 'restricted' list for Modern:
List is very incomplete, but I think it gets the general idea across. Powerful cards that are more efficient than their mana cost otherwise indicates, especially if that makes them highly splashable, or causes them to push out of the meta all other cards of a similar type because they are just so much better. Not so much for things that are combo build-around cards though, because such would kick deck types entirely out of the meta, like trying to put something like Birthing Pod or Slippery Bogle on the list.
Notably, restricting Path and Dismember may help black decks get some more removal recognition, although it may make some stuff that is resistant to standard removal a lot more powerful, and I'm not sure the meta could adapt to it. It may require some new removal to enter the meta first that are decent but not as crazily splashy and too allowing for super-powerful removal outside of your deck's colors. It'll also probably hurt White quite a bit, so White may need some new cards and strategies to help make up for it.
Alongside such a list, I could see a couple of the banned list cards, specifically Jace, the Mind Sculptor, and Preordain, being moved to this new list. They might be too good to unban fully based on WotC's standards, but I could see them being moved to a restricted, rather than banned, list.
Such a list may also allow them to print some cards that they otherwise couldn't have, but seem like they'd be fair, such as a sorcery speed variant on Lightning Bolt, or a non-creature perhaps UR costed instant snap-casting tool.
I don't see the point of discussing a restricted list for this format since it'll just never happen. The most cited reason is that it creates swingy games: in the control mirror, the guy who gets his Jace wins, for instance. If you're into this swinginess, try Yu-Gi-Oh. A Sorcery-speed Lightning Bolt exists, but it's probably not in Modern on purpose.
Hey Guys i leave tomorrow for GP- Madrid and ofc will all-day grind Friday. Although i already got the Byes.
However through the last days of practise i wanted to share the list i ended up with:
(Deck)
So its pretty similiar to Ashtons List earlier but still with some changes:
- 1 Serum Vision + 1 Breeding Pool
The 18th Land is definiatly more valuable than the 3rd Vision. Im not sure if it HAS to be Breeding Pool but the Pool felt right and amazing since i put at into the deck and made a lot of Starters keepable.
-1 Faitless Looting +1 Izzet Charm
Its not clear but the +U in cost didnt made any diffrence to me as the looting was always ment to be a rather lategame card. For the Flashback i almost never used it before so i dont think i gonna mis sit, but izzet charm offers fleibility whereas looting would always do the same. I felt quite good with taht change.
-2 Remand + 1 Mana Leak +1 Ooze
Remand felt MEH most of the Times when not used against Treasure Cruise whereas Mana Leak is a premium counter most of the time we play it. With Izzet Charm also ofering another counter option i felt good with just adding 1 Leak for the Remand and adding another big Threat with use that is good vs GY strategy ,gains some live and threatens our opponent rather fast.
I would love to hear some feedback.
Another Thing im considering is repalcing a Land for a Canopy Horizon Opinions?
Only sideboardchange: - Isochron + 3rd hallow bc ist AMAZING and isochron is a liability on GP level imo.
Hopefully you will be able to read this before the GP :
1- I do not agree with the Breeding Pool, you dont need an extra Green source, a second Steam Vents is a better choice.
2- The Looting vs Charm is likely to cause debate between Ashton and me at the FNM this friday
The thing is that while Looting is indeed more focused and dodges spell snares, I find it very narrow in its use. If I am to use a singleton looting effect, I would prefer it to be flexible in its uses. To me Izzet charm fits in that category :
Pros:
- Instant Speed
- 3 relevant modes depending of the situation. (spell pierce, shock on a creature, looting 2)
- If I need to flashback it, Snapcaster will help.
Cons:
- Costs UR, not the best to protect early drops in the first turns
- Vulnerable to Spell Snare
3- Remand is in a weird spot, in some matchups where you are the agressor, it allows you to out-tempo your opponents. But when youre behind, it often delays the inevitable and it is not the best solution to regain tempo. Some times I love it and wins me games, other times it is more a 2mana cycling spell. I really dont know what to do on this situation... But one thing is certain, while I can understand the choice of Mana Leak I disagree for the choice of Scavenging Ooze, it is too much green mana intensive in its use to be that useful, especially considering you need a 2nd green source in play in order to get value out of it. In my testing so far, I found Huntmaster of the Fells to be promising, for 4 mana it gives you a bit of value on a spot-removal heavy environment and is a must answer threat. I have one maindeck so far.
4- A third Hallow is probably unnecessary since you also have some good counters for some of that burn and it costs you a SB slot that you could use for some other matchups. Unless you expect a huge red-heavy environment ( bolts, anger of the gods, etc. ) I'd stay with two.
I agree with all of this except on Charm. Gotta stand by the Faithless Looting. Flashback mode proves tremendously relevant in longer games, and why do you want Shock mode? For Delver? We already have a great matchup there (another reason you don't need 3x Hallow). Looting also lets you keep one-landers with threats, acting as an extra Visions in that case (with the added bonus of letting you Cruise a few turns faster into 3rd/4th lands). I'm also liking the 18th land, but I prefer a fetch to either Steam Vents or Breeding Pool. I'd run another Shock if I was expecting a lot of Death&Taxes, but I never am, and you probably shouldn't either.
On Scepter: a lot of decks just have no way to interact with it. Never mind the "GP level." Decks without Abrupt Decay will generally fold to a G2 Scepter and bring in dead artifact hate G3 while you side it out. It's also great in control matchups (like UR Delver). If I have time, I'll try to write up a section on beating that deck; if you play correctly, it's basically a bye. Hopefully it'll get to you before you take off for Madrid!
Trinisphere is out. Just not good enough. 4x chalice of the void in the main deck. If I'm on the play game one I'm setting it at one. If I know what they are playing here's a short list of what I set chalice at for various decks. "Stolen from reddit"
I'm testing something crazy right now. Like really crazy. Since my goal it to have chalice on one. I'm cutting the skred and bolt counts and moving them to the board.
X=0
Affinity, preferably T1 on the play, or with a Hurkyl's Recall
Living End
Ad Nauseam, counters their Pacts and makes the combo extremely fragile to disruption, counters Lotus Bloom
Restore Balance
X=1
Burn/RDW
Elves
UWR, counters their Bolts and Paths
Boggles
Infect
Ad Nauseam, counters Angel's Grace
RG Tron, counters Expedition Map, Ancient Stirrings, and all their cantrips.
8-Rack
UR(w) Delver. So many one-drops.
Baby Zoo
Storm, counters Gitaxian Probe, Sleight of Hand, Serum Visions, Thought Scour, Lightning Bolt. Typically hits 16 cards in their main deck, which is almost always enough to shut down their attempts at comboing off.
X=2
Storm, counters Grapeshot (just the cast spell not the copies), Manamorphose, Pyromancer Ascension, Desperate Ritual, Pyretic Ritual, Goblin Electromancer, Echoing Truth
Jund, counters Tarmogoyf, Bob, Scooze
Amulet Combo, counters Summer Bloom, Explore
///
I'm probably forgetting some obvious ones, but I'm hoping you guys can make some great suggestions.
///
EDIT: Refined my list above to reflect additions in the comments.
I remembered an important one: X=1 vs 8-rack. Counters The Rack and Shrieking Affliction, pretty much their only wincons.
EDIT 2: Since Storm is such a fast deck, it is probably smarter to play Chalice on X=1 if you have it in hand. They play a ton of 1-drops, and X=1 makes it extremely hard for them to build up a storm count.
While an early Chalice@1 is a great play, you need to be able to follow it up with enough pressure to close out the game. Otherwise, decks will draw the outs they can cast and just beat you while you draw into more Chalice and SSG. I think Phyrexian Ironfoot might merit some play in these builds since he naturally curves out of Chalice, survives sweepers, and the Scrying Sheets can help you draw into business, especially if you're not focusing on Blood Moon. Plus, you can T2 Coldsteel Heart into T3 Chalice@2. Remember Jund can Decay your Chalice@2.
You cannot argue with results. It just seems odd so many deckbuilders would be concerned with the damage prevention/life gain aspect. Though, life gain is the one component that slows down a burn deck, so it makes sense from that standpoint.
Are you serious? Lifegain/prevention is literally the only way to beat this deck. Of course deckbuilders are concerned with it.
The cloudpost engine is degenerate, legacy MUD has shifted to playing it these days! Glimmerpost + cloudpost + other lands is just far too good in this format where the only efficient land hate is blood moon and Tec Edge. You cannot simply bring up storm as that was a speed ban, and Jund was a over saturation ban with no individually important pieces. Cloudpost was not as well represented as jund before the bannings (IIRC) but it significantly warped the format by existing. People are whining about the death of midrange well imagine if control died off with it, that is what happens when cloudpost enters the format.
The Cloudpost decks of the early Modern days had Green Sun's Zenith. They also had Eye of Ugin, which I am proposing a ban for instead. Alternatively, you could ban Vesuva or Glimmerpost. 8-Post is actually pretty tame.
Just did a lenghty post and I accidentally deleted it, lol. Oh well, I will rewrite it later Fightning in the Overdrive! Event on mtgo
Ashton : Faithless Looting vs Izzet Charm, what do you think ?
EDIT : Lost 2nd round to poor sideboard choices vs Splinter Twin after winning R1 against a Restore Balance deck. I really should take sideboarding notes.
Definitely Looting. Easy to cast, can't be Snared, having the effect twice per game invaluable. How do you lose to Splinter Twin?
There have been winning decks that have settled on three goyfs, historically speaking, im not going to look any up but you do see pro's make that decision from time to time depending on the list. There's no such thing as '4 or none' in magic, there's only the correct 75. Of course, I would run 7 goyfs in this deck if I were allowed to, but saying goyf has to be played one way or another is not why its wrong.
I don't understand people's gripe with goyf and treasure cruise. All you have to do in keep a land in the yard and treasure cruise as a sorcery keeps him bolt proof, plus you got to draw three cards so chances are high the graveyard will be restocking itself naturally.
While that's true, Modern decks either run him as a 4-of or as a 0-of (check the lists of most played Modern cards from the last few years). The reason for this is, if you want Tarmogoyf in your Modern deck, he's simply the best thing at doing what you need that slot to do.
As for the gribe with Goyf and TC: I don't actually think people believe this. Lots of players decried their supposed anti-synergy when TC was released, but anyone who plays this deck/has played it knows from their own experience that the two are fine together. Take a look at the lists on the last few pages: 4 Goyf, 3 Cruise or 4 Goyf, 4 Cruise is just standard for this deck.
But no Siege Rhino? Being able to pod off Finks for Rhino seems like a really good life swing against burn. I don't really get the comment "Shows what you know about current Melira Pod decks" as the Rhino is picking up steam in the primer thread, and how was he supposed to know your already maxed out on Finks? I'll be honest, in the current meta it may be worth cutting the Spike Feeder/Archangel of Thune combo to ensure you do dead draw into spike feeder. Some better value cards that are strong by themselves you probably be a bit better with Burn and Delver apparently threatening turn for kills every where you turn in your meta.
I think he's trolling. He posted later that Pod decks have always run 4 Finks, which I know for a fact to be false. I admittedly don't know a lot about Pod decks, but no Rhino is a pretty obvious mistake in this meta.
MTGO Results from 3/11-7/11. (Wizards Site)
Most played Decks:
Delver: 23 placings. 2 of which went 4-0.
POD(! WHAT? PEOPLE CLAIMED IT WAS DEAD?!):14 Placings. 3 of which went 4-0. (Most Pod lists, tuned to the meta and instead of whining, are playing 3-4 Kitchen Finks main AND the Rhino)
Scapeshift: 14 placings. 2 of which went 4-0.
The Menace of Burn: 9 (!) placings. 2 of which went 4-0.
Also, JUNK, a deck which some claim is dead, had 6 placings. Only 3 less than burn. More to the point, 1 went 4-0.
Do you know what the Junk players who actually play the game did? The changed EVERYTHING. 3 smiters/3 scoozes/4 Rhinos/3 Scullers/4 AD/4 PATH (YES THEY FINALLY PlAY PATH), some lists even ran 2 Abzan Charms.
Heck even Jund had a placing. 21 placings for the non-blue midrange.
These numbers ladies and gents, for me, mean one thing. Non-blue midrange is far from dead. And independently of how you twist it and present it, truth of the matter is, THESE are the numbers.
If Wizards is anywhere near as reasonable as they've seemed to be about the post-Khans meta given AF's comments on it, seems like Delve is here to stay!
Well the thing is i see the points for Sacred Foundry (enabling your removal mostly) but U/G gives you acces to Creatures and Protection. So a hand with goyf,pool,vision/delver/pierce etc is easyli keepable whereas i feel a hand with goyf,foundry,bolt,vision isnt. So basically my reasoning was: BP is a Shock that can complement your other shocks easily and second allows you to even keep more 1-Landers.And it did work, at least in the limited testing i got in, perfect.
Yeah was very underwhelmed with Mutagenic Growth in my testing. Didnt got the chance to test deprive yet but i guess with the additional pool it becomes more appealing too but the problem is i really dont like cutting Leaks nor Remands. So thats kinda a though spot and i will see if a one-of is worth running.
For everyone whos new to the Deck and is sceptical about some choices let me just say one thing: The 1-of Looting is amazing! I can only advice everyone to use it, its basically your 5th Cruise Lategame as you always have more lands than you will need at some point. Looting rewards you to dont play them and represent countermagic/burn even more
@Ashton: Did you actually test Vapor Snags yet?
Still didn't test Snags. Don't know where I'd want them specifically, just wondering if the incremental advantage Path gives opponents in long games actually does anything to us. Right now (intelligent) players are starting to main Siege Rhino and Kitchen Finks, so I'll keep the Paths in my 60.
Modern last night, only 6 people signed up since most of the other Modern players would rather draft than play against the meta full of Delver and Burn. Only had 6 people so just 3 rounds of swiss.
Round 1: Burn VS Melira Pod (ME)
Win game 1, the guy is new to Modern and has never played against Pod before. Game 1 he should have gotten it but he was casting skullcracks on his turn instead of mine.
Game 2 was very similar, combo'd off with Angel/Feeder. Shows him the combos and how to beat Pod if he ever plays against it again.
1-0
Round 2: UR Delver vs Melira Pod (Me)
Game 1 was very close, I was destroying him with value. But then he chained some Gitaxian Probes and Serum Visions together with 2 Young Pyromancers on board and went for Treasure Cruise. Before the Cruise the game was very fair, if not in my favor. After the Cruise he had a hand full of gas vs my hand full of 3 and 4 drops that would proceed to get Remanded and Vapor Snaged until he won.
Game 2 wasn't even a contest. He had a Delver and 2 Pyromancers on board and was just chaining Cruises and Remands on me. Had something like 12 Elemental Tokens by the end of it.
Had a talk with him after and he said he thinks Cruise is the most broken card in the format right now.
1-1
Round 3: Affinity vs Melira Pod (Me)
Game 1 wasn't even hard. I kept a hand full of dorks and an Archangel of Thune. After it resolved he Galvanic Blasted it and we went to game 2.
Game 2 was probably the best game of Magic ive ever EVER ******* played. It was beautiful. He had 2 manlands, Darksteel Citadel, Mox Opal, 2 Etched Champs, 1 Archbound Ravager, Ornithopter. He sac'd them to him Archbound Ravager and then moved all the counters onto his Vault Skirge(which had an Ensoul Artifact on it), making it a 16/16 flying lifelink. He swung in and brought me to 1 and put himself to 18. I took my turn, I think I top deck'd exactly what I needed and swung in for 18.
Game 3 I thought I had but I kept a pretty slow and underwhelming hand. I should have mulled. Other guy mull'd to 4 but got a decently aggressive hand and with 2 Thoughtcasts later had a board that looked as though he never mull'd in the first place. I almost had it, I had a stable board and I was going to combo with Archangel of Thune and Spike Feeder on the next turn but he top decks a Cranial Plating and gets EXACTLY enough to deal lethal. Was a very close game and a very entertaining match.
1-2 (FINAL)
Looked around the round to see what was being played, this was by far the most diverse meta ive seen at the store. Most of the time im there its like all Burn and Delver but this week it was Burn, Delver, UW Tron, Melira Pod, Rock, and Affinity. Though, to be fair, a few Delver and Burn players were drafting thankfully. One guy who usually plays Zoo, Affinity, Hatebears, basically any sort of agro deck, said he wasn't playing Modern until a few of his cards came in the mail because he wants to play Delver with Cruise because he believes it will be banned and he wants to get in as much game time with it as he can before then. Didn't have enough people to officially host Modern FNM because people didn't like the meta, that pissed me off. Delver is a fine deck and a good matchup for me, but Treasure Cruise single handedly made both games completely one sided.
So tune your deck. Siege Rhino blows Delver out of the water and most intelligent Pod players have brought a pair into the MD. It's nobody's fault but yours that you refuse to adapt to the new meta. UR Delver and Burn are very easy to beat if you do a tiny bit of tuning, especially with the toolbox afforded you by Birthing Pod. Have you even considered upping the # of Kitchen Finks?
I did cut 1 Serum Vision for a Breeding Pool and its AMAZING. My Hands are so much better and more smove. I Love this Deck and im so looking forward to Madrid. is there any ''special Tech'' is hould watch out for ? Or just the good old pure Tempo Play? I tried Mutagenic Growth but i really didnt liked it.. Also how would you create your Sideboard for such a Big Event although i start with at least 1 bye rather 2.
I tried to cover everything playable in the Primer; if you think of something else, please post it in this thread. I didn't include Mutagenic Growth because, like you, I didn't like in testing and can't even imagine a match I would want it in after having seen its applications here. About the Breeding Pool: you're not running Sacred Foundry? Very interesting. I've also cut the third Visions, but for a Wooded Foothills. I'll try BP instead and see how I feel about it. Would love to hear your thoughts on its inclusion though.
Round 2 vs. 4c Gifts (2-0) - Got lucky here, not a superb matchup for us. They attack from a lot of different angles thanks to Lingering Souls, and it's awkward to bring in Forked Bolt/Pyroclasm but you often need to. In any case, I out-tempo'd him both games. Usually carry a Surgical Extraction in the board for this matchup (only in this meta; there's also a Dredgevine deck running around), but forgot to change my side from the Face event on Monday, so it was a second Hallow. Didn't come up this match though. Spell Pierce is great.
Round 3 vs. Counter-Cat (2-0) - Yeah, the mirror! He's new to the deck, so my plan was way more developed than his. I boarded out Spell Pierce and Delvers and brought in extra removal, Negate, Hallow. First time testing the mirror since KTK, but it was super miserable pre-Cruise: basically whoever got a Goyf first won. Now, the match is ultra grindy. He was wasting his Faithless Looting to fill the grave for Delve or to find fast answers to threats, so I just stalled out and beat him via card advantage as he held useless fetches.
Some UR Delver lists are running three Deprieve main. I believe it may be because they need an unconditionnal counterspell for some of the answers that are targeted toward them.
I played an 18th land (Steam Vents) in the list. Havent played enough games but so far it seems a bit more consistent and I have redundancy against tectonic edge.
How relevant would you say that redundancy is? I'm terrified of drawing a hand with like, Steam Vents and Stomping Ground, or double Vents, or Vents and Fountain... IMO the point of adding an 18th land is increasing the amount of 2-land openers that give you perfect mana (i.e. a pair of Core Shocks).
We could probably support Deprive, but would we want it? Like I said, it's mostly relevant in longer games, since Leak takes care of everything else. I'm on a 2-2 Leak/Remand split right now, and those are better in the early-mid game (which is where we play most of the time anyway). If I wanted to add another counterspell, it probably would be one of those two.
On Scepter: a lot of decks just have no way to interact with it. Never mind the "GP level." Decks without Abrupt Decay will generally fold to a G2 Scepter and bring in dead artifact hate G3 while you side it out. It's also great in control matchups (like UR Delver). If I have time, I'll try to write up a section on beating that deck; if you play correctly, it's basically a bye. Hopefully it'll get to you before you take off for Madrid!
As for the gribe with Goyf and TC: I don't actually think people believe this. Lots of players decried their supposed anti-synergy when TC was released, but anyone who plays this deck/has played it knows from their own experience that the two are fine together. Take a look at the lists on the last few pages: 4 Goyf, 3 Cruise or 4 Goyf, 4 Cruise is just standard for this deck.
Round 1 vs. UW Tempo (2-0) - I Tempo better.
Round 2 vs. 4c Gifts (2-0) - Got lucky here, not a superb matchup for us. They attack from a lot of different angles thanks to Lingering Souls, and it's awkward to bring in Forked Bolt/Pyroclasm but you often need to. In any case, I out-tempo'd him both games. Usually carry a Surgical Extraction in the board for this matchup (only in this meta; there's also a Dredgevine deck running around), but forgot to change my side from the Face event on Monday, so it was a second Hallow. Didn't come up this match though. Spell Pierce is great.
Round 3 vs. Counter-Cat (2-0) - Yeah, the mirror! He's new to the deck, so my plan was way more developed than his. I boarded out Spell Pierce and Delvers and brought in extra removal, Negate, Hallow. First time testing the mirror since KTK, but it was super miserable pre-Cruise: basically whoever got a Goyf first won. Now, the match is ultra grindy. He was wasting his Faithless Looting to fill the grave for Delve or to find fast answers to threats, so I just stalled out and beat him via card advantage as he held useless fetches.
A shame GP NJ isn't Modern...
We could probably support Deprive, but would we want it? Like I said, it's mostly relevant in longer games, since Leak takes care of everything else. I'm on a 2-2 Leak/Remand split right now, and those are better in the early-mid game (which is where we play most of the time anyway). If I wanted to add another counterspell, it probably would be one of those two.