Moved my TezzorMentor deck a little closer to Sleepwalker's build, dropped the Moxen and Baubles to be more interactive. Felt good against two random games I played against UR Delver and a Dark Dweller blood moon deck:
I'm just honestly not sure what the best build is, there is just so much random jankery in Modern right now. I might try out your Esper build, although one thing I like about white is Monastery Mentor since it triggers off artifacts, might throw them in the sideboard for swapping out against artifact hate.
I can definitely agree with throwing away the matchup, it has always been bad for us and I think Modern is diverse enough right now that unless your local meta is warped with a lot of Tron, it's metagame numbers will be held down by Infect and other aggro decks. Just gotta take the bad beats when you get matched against it, although I think we are better than 10-90 in the matchup since we do have beatdown as long as they don't have turn 3 Karn.
I haven't been having that much success with straight UB either, still lots of aggro decks and even more hate, seems like every deck is packing minimum 4 dedicated artifact hate and most of the time more than that.
Playing some with Grixis Delver as a little break, but also thinking about brewing an Esper Monastery Mentor + Thopter/Sword + Tezzeret deck to attack from some more angles as well as get access to Disenchant.
Gonna try to do a few more updates today on the Primer, I haven't personally been able to get too much going in terms of testing, but I think I wasn't giving Torpor Orb enough credit recently. People are playing some odd decks, played against a dredge Prized Amalgam and some other brews that it would be good against.
I will be updating the primer, I just feel it is somewhat premature to rewrite the whole thing as there isn't an established "best build" or anything at the current moment. Planning on updating some of the information soon.
EDIT: Put up some changes with new info, tell me if you feel comfortable enough with your build for me to put it in the lists on the front page.
Oh yeah, if everyone else is playing Ancestral Vision, Notion Thief is some sweet sideboard tech since you can always get him out before it comes off suspend.
People say Ancestral Vision is a terrible top deck, but the more i play it in a Esper or UWR control shell the more I like top decking it, game goes long you just bury them in card advantage over time. Really think its great in UB/UBW Tezzeret control shell, and Jeskai control shells.
Tezzeret already has enough card advantage between Thirst for Knowledge and Tezz, other cards outside the combo need to be dedicated to stabilizing before the combo is online and playing 4 more cards that don't do anything until turn 4 at best isn't the way to go.
Long time admirer first time building Tezzeretor. I have been such a fan of thopter sword since the combo came to be... but I'm definitely new to this archetype. I've been mostly playing with other people's builds so far but I do have a couple questions.
I remember hype about languish in this deck. Did that ever pan out or is damnation just too much better tHan the gain from the oneish-sided boardwipes?
Also, the Trinket Mage packages that used to see play forever ago seem to have vanished. I was just curious if this was something to consider moving forward with thopter sword being so grindy, or if we should just focus on the more typical builds we see now. Obviously mage doesn't grab the combo, but I could see it being useful grabbing a Darksteel Citadel or an expedition map to grab Academy ruins if our foundry gets sploded. Other targets are obvious.
I know the format is fast now and these options may be too slow.
Edit: Also, I've seen vastly different builds in regards to mana. I've found around 22-23 to be optimal but I'm curious what others have found. I'm having trouble fitting in the 3-4 darksteels, 1-2 creeping tarpits, and blinkmoth/inkmoth/mutavaults. The manabase just feels so bad in some of these builds but obviously we don't even have the core set up yet. Just curious on other's findings. I can't get past two colors honestly. Obviously it depends on opals and other mana rocks as well... but it feels so wishy washy on some hands. I also don't want to get blown out by stony silence taking me off colored mana.
I've found in the past that if you want to go to 3 colors, obviously you need to run fetches and you probably need to cut some number of Darksteel Citadels as well as probably no man-lands besides a few Creeping Tar Pits.
Pascal Maynard just posted his initial testing build of Tezz, looks pretty similar to mine, except no Opals, 4 Talisman, and only 1 Bridge. Only thing I don't really agree with is 1 bridge, I think 0 or 2-3 is better.
EDIT: I really like Hurkyl's Recall, especially now that we have to think about the mirror match, it kills all opposing Thopter tokens and bounces both combo pieces.
Also posted my initial testing build on the front page, decided to put some Spellskites main, go to 1 Opal, move Disfigure to the sideboard.
I actually agree with you on most of those points, I'm not going to be running any of the cards I mentioned. It was more a response to people really wanting to run tutor effects.
Yeah my phrasing was a little off, but I still don't think I will ever personally run Reshape unless the combo is really busted. I like the flexible control decks more so than the combo heavy ones.
Just a few thoughts on all the stuff I've been seeing:
First, Reshape is really only more mana efficient than Tezzeret the Seeker if you are getting a 1 or 2 drop, but still you are sacrificing an artifact and if it gets countered you still sac it. Because of this I don't think the card is ever worth playing over Big Tezz and they still have to deal with your planeswalker at 1-3 loyalty. Fabricate is also pretty bad since it does not go on to the battlefield, Muddle the Mixture is an uncounterable tutor with another use, and even then I think the card is playable but questionable.
On the other hand, I do think Ensnaring Bridge is still good, as it works perfectly fine when people side in Stony Silence against you. I think all builds need a clear hate plan in the sideboard. I personally think I'm going to run a 4/3 Thopter/Sword split, and most of the times especially against I will side down to 3/2 and have some kind of a anti-hate plan, probably through creatures / Tezz -1.
Time Sieve is yet another piece that is susceptible to hate, how many times do you lose once having the Thopter/Sword combo online for a full turn? The answer is probably maybe 10-15%, so why have another piece that eats up valuable deck slots?
3 Swords seem to much imO, considering it comes back.
What do you all think about Reshape? Acts as a pseudo Transmute Artifact.
Same question for tolaria west.
(New to the deck btw, was thinking about building it and then sword unban happened lmao.)
I've always liked a 4/3 split of Thopter/Sword in Legacy. Tolaria West only gets 0 CMC, and I've never like Reshape, big Tezz is better.
Land (23)
1 Academy Ruins
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Darksteel Citadel
2 Flooded Strand
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Godless Shrine
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Island
3 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
3 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
2 Watery Grave
Creature (7)
3 Monastery Mentor
2 Spellskite
2 Tidehollow Sculler
Artifact (12)
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Sword of the Meek
4 Thopter Foundry
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
Instant (8)
4 Path to Exile
1 Smother
3 Thirst for Knowledge
Sorcery (6)
2 Damnation
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
Creature (1)
1 Ethersworn Canonist
Artifact (2)
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Torpor Orb
Instant (6)
3 Disenchant
2 Disfigure
1 Hurkyl's Recall
Sorcery (6)
2 Flaying Tendrils
2 Thoughtseize
2 Timely Reinforcements
Playing some with Grixis Delver as a little break, but also thinking about brewing an Esper Monastery Mentor + Thopter/Sword + Tezzeret deck to attack from some more angles as well as get access to Disenchant.
True, how about a nice FAQ section at the top? If you guys have good ideas for questions that will keep it informative and concise shoot them my way.
EDIT: Put up some changes with new info, tell me if you feel comfortable enough with your build for me to put it in the lists on the front page.
Tezzeret already has enough card advantage between Thirst for Knowledge and Tezz, other cards outside the combo need to be dedicated to stabilizing before the combo is online and playing 4 more cards that don't do anything until turn 4 at best isn't the way to go.
I've found in the past that if you want to go to 3 colors, obviously you need to run fetches and you probably need to cut some number of Darksteel Citadels as well as probably no man-lands besides a few Creeping Tar Pits.
Land (23)
1 Academy Ruins
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Darkslick Shores
4 Darksteel Citadel
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Watery Grave
Artifact (14)
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Sword of the Meek
4 Talisman of Dominance
4 Thopter Foundry
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
Instant (7)
2 Disfigure
1 Slaughter Pact
4 Thirst for Knowledge
Sorcery (9)
2 Damnation
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
Creature (4)
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
2 Spellskite
Artifact (4)
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Pithing Needle
Planeswalker (1)
1 Liliana of the Veil
Instant (5)
1 Disfigure
3 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Duress
http://www.channelfireball.com/videos/channel-pmayne-modern-thoptersword/
EDIT: I really like Hurkyl's Recall, especially now that we have to think about the mirror match, it kills all opposing Thopter tokens and bounces both combo pieces.
Also posted my initial testing build on the front page, decided to put some Spellskites main, go to 1 Opal, move Disfigure to the sideboard.
Yeah my phrasing was a little off, but I still don't think I will ever personally run Reshape unless the combo is really busted. I like the flexible control decks more so than the combo heavy ones.
First, Reshape is really only more mana efficient than Tezzeret the Seeker if you are getting a 1 or 2 drop, but still you are sacrificing an artifact and if it gets countered you still sac it. Because of this I don't think the card is ever worth playing over Big Tezz and they still have to deal with your planeswalker at 1-3 loyalty. Fabricate is also pretty bad since it does not go on to the battlefield, Muddle the Mixture is an uncounterable tutor with another use, and even then I think the card is playable but questionable.
For the Bottled Cloister synergy, I think you have to be all in on Ensnaring Bridge, see "Turbo Bridges" style deck here I was trying during the Eldrazi menace.
On the other hand, I do think Ensnaring Bridge is still good, as it works perfectly fine when people side in Stony Silence against you. I think all builds need a clear hate plan in the sideboard. I personally think I'm going to run a 4/3 Thopter/Sword split, and most of the times especially against I will side down to 3/2 and have some kind of a anti-hate plan, probably through creatures / Tezz -1.
Time Sieve is yet another piece that is susceptible to hate, how many times do you lose once having the Thopter/Sword combo online for a full turn? The answer is probably maybe 10-15%, so why have another piece that eats up valuable deck slots?
I've always liked a 4/3 split of Thopter/Sword in Legacy. Tolaria West only gets 0 CMC, and I've never like Reshape, big Tezz is better.
Land (22)
1 Academy Ruins
2 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Darkslick Shores
4 Darksteel Citadel
2 Ghost Quarter
3 Island
2 River of Tears
2 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Watery Grave
Artifact (15)
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Mox Opal
3 Sword of the Meek
2 Talisman of Dominance
4 Thopter Foundry
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
Instant (9)
2 Disfigure
1 Dismember
1 Go for the Throat
1 Smother
4 Thirst for Knowledge
Sorcery (7)
2 Damnation
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize