OK, so basically what i'm going for is Aggressive Value. Voice of Resurgence, and Kitchen Finks for built in value. Renegade Rallier to bring back Voice & Goyf for Value city. Cat blinks Finks to reset them for even more value, blinks Rallier to bring back Voice or Goyf again for more value. Saheeli blink Rallier to keep on bringing back Voice & Goyf. Gavony Township resets Finks all over again.... You can see how it gets obnoxious real fast.
So far it's been very hard for opponents to deal with the constant pressure, and value, AND be able to still deal with the combo also. It's been a blast to play because it feels like there is always something to do, and a play to make, and with the constant onslaught of value, it's just been a blast.
I haven't been keeping track of any games, or taking notes, so I don't have anything like that. I've just been jamming out a ton of games on Cockatrice to get a feeling for a few ideas I had, and this one so far has felt by far the most consistent of things I had been trying.
I'm trying the 3 Crumble to Dust in the side because big mana decks can be so frustrating... Any tips for those match ups?
I also dropped Walls a long time ago. I personally just swapped them for a number of Kitchen Finks, and never looked back.
However, I play 7-8 dorks in almost all my lists, and feel like they are CRUCIAL to getting a fast enough start. Sometimes they eat removal, but then that's just less removal for our combo pieces. Especially if we take out Wall(2 drop) and replace those slots with higher CMC cards, your gonna need that ramp to keep the same tempo.
I also played Splicers in my original brews but have since moved on. Finks IMO is better. And the ability to consistently reset Finks with Cat, and Township is huge. Life, and chump blocks for daaaays. 3/2 ain't a bad body either, it adds up fast.
Reveillark hasn't been very good for me usually, and is generally too slow to make an actual impact. I wouldn't leave home without Angel of Sanctions, which gives you a perfect catch all to answer just about any problem you'll come across.
Your mana base looks rough. Only 21 lands. 3 Ghost Qrtr.. 5 Forest.... Why 5 forest? There's a lot I'm not feeling about that mana base. I feel like you're gonna be mulling way too many games, purely based on drawing bad combinations of lands?
From the Match-ups you end up facing throughout a tournament, to your starting hands, to the cards you draw throughout the game, to mana flood, and mana screw. And also all these things with your opponent too; their opening hands, what they draw, who draws their sideboard cards, and when, etc, etc, etc...
I'd say there's no way to deny luck plays a massive factor in things.
You can play everything perfectly, but If you only draw 1 land in 5 turns, you're gonna lose. If you draw a land every turn, you're gonna lose. Your opponent top decks their 1 of sideboard hate at the perfect moment, you're gonna lose. You meta perfectly, but somehow still end up facing your worst match up, chances are you're gonna lose. Your opponent is beating you down with 1-2 dudes, and somehow you just don't draw any of your 15 pieces of removal... You're gonna lose, Etc, etc.
Or it works the other way too.
You put no thought into your meta choice, and just play the deck you like, by luck of the draw happen to dodge all your bad match-ups, and hey, you just slayed that tournament. Or maybe You do end up against your worst match, but they get mana screwed and you get the win anyway. Or how about that time you top decked that sideboard card JUST IN TIME, and hey you just won, purely because of good luck. Or remember that game where you just happened to draw your entire combo in your opening hand?
I've played as little as 2 MD in lists and never even noticed.
You can play without them pretty easily. You usually have better things to blink with Cat, or return with Rallier. Wish finds Saheeli, so it has that angle covered. Oath can grab a land though which can be helpful.
The card is very good, I know all the things you can do with it, but i'm not so sure you actually need it.
I saw another user post about Glittering Wish, and the more I think about it, the more the idea intrigues me. It might end up being a bunk idea, but it's an interesting angle.
This sounds like a stupid problem, but I seriously feel like this shell is so good, I have success no matter how I set up my list. I've tried so many different things, and done great with all of them. I've brewed on a lot of decks over the years, but with this one, I just can't for the life of my find an optimum set up when everything I try is working.
It can grab all sorts of stuff, and we wouldn't really even need to change a whole lot to support it.
Also, Lejoon, what are your impressions on the black splash for Rhino? I'm the one that was trying out the 5c brew with Rhinos. It feels powerful, but as with all adjustments to this deck, it's hard to tell which set up is optimum. I'm juts curious to hear your thoughts after trying a list with Rhinos? Also did you get a chance to live the dream, and copy Rhinos with Saheeli? Feels so powerful when you get to do that.
If you copy Obzedat, Ghost Council with Saheeli Rai, can you Exile the Obzedat to it's own ability before Saheeli exiles the token? Which would then let you keep the copy when it comes back from exile next turn?
Some other cards to consider when thinking about a black splash:
-2/0 GW Coco
-1/2 GR Valukut
-2/0 Grixis Shadow
-2/1 BW Tokens
-2/0 Grixis Control
After testing so many different variants, and having success with pretty much all of them, I'm convinced this shell is just flat out good. I feel like i'm doing really dang good in testing no matter how I set up the deck. Granted i'm testing on Cockatrice, so there's a good chance i'm just matching up against inexperienced players, but it's still promising results, and convinces me this deck is worth playing right now.
The 5c list ran surprisingly well. The main drawback of the 5c list is obv the mana base. I basically left out all the bells and whistles of any tech lands, and just went straight for color. Yeah it's 5 colors, but it's really a GW deck with small splashes. With the mana base set up, and the 8 dorks, I never had any issues with casting my cards.
Siege Rhino unsurprisingly is a friggin house. He can stabilize a game basically on his own, or close the show within a few turns. Blinking with Cat feels great, but copying with Saheeli is just insane, and puts absurd pressure on the opponent. Casting it wasn't in issue when drawn, but easily the best Evo target to sac Voice into. Feels super powerful.
4 Finks is value city, and felt pretty good. Another good card to blink with Cat, and you can even reset it after persisting once. Between Voice, and Finks, it's really hard for opponents to deal with everything, and still be able to stop our combo.
Turns out Tireless Tracker is really good. Hard to see the cards power until you play with it, but you, AND your opponent will quickly realize this guy needs to be dealt with ASAP, or he will get out of control quick.
I'm struggling to understand why people are playing Restoration Angel at all? With 4 Cats, What is Resto doing for them? He also doesn't combo with Saheeli?
What do you guys think of this one?
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Voice of Resurgence
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Renegade Rallier
2 Reflector Mage
1 Angel of Sanctions
4 Felidar Guardian
4 Saheeli Rai
4 Oath of Nissa
3 Path to Exile
2 Eldritch Evolution
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Razorverge Thicket
2 Temple Garden
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Ground
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Gavony Township
2 Stony Silence
1 Eldritch Evolution
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Magus of the Moat
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Cataclysmic Gearhulk
OK, so basically what i'm going for is Aggressive Value. Voice of Resurgence, and Kitchen Finks for built in value. Renegade Rallier to bring back Voice & Goyf for Value city. Cat blinks Finks to reset them for even more value, blinks Rallier to bring back Voice or Goyf again for more value. Saheeli blink Rallier to keep on bringing back Voice & Goyf. Gavony Township resets Finks all over again.... You can see how it gets obnoxious real fast.
So far it's been very hard for opponents to deal with the constant pressure, and value, AND be able to still deal with the combo also. It's been a blast to play because it feels like there is always something to do, and a play to make, and with the constant onslaught of value, it's just been a blast.
I haven't been keeping track of any games, or taking notes, so I don't have anything like that. I've just been jamming out a ton of games on Cockatrice to get a feeling for a few ideas I had, and this one so far has felt by far the most consistent of things I had been trying.
I'm trying the 3 Crumble to Dust in the side because big mana decks can be so frustrating... Any tips for those match ups?
However, I play 7-8 dorks in almost all my lists, and feel like they are CRUCIAL to getting a fast enough start. Sometimes they eat removal, but then that's just less removal for our combo pieces. Especially if we take out Wall(2 drop) and replace those slots with higher CMC cards, your gonna need that ramp to keep the same tempo.
I also played Splicers in my original brews but have since moved on. Finks IMO is better. And the ability to consistently reset Finks with Cat, and Township is huge. Life, and chump blocks for daaaays. 3/2 ain't a bad body either, it adds up fast.
Reflector Mage is consistently MVP in my games.
Reveillark hasn't been very good for me usually, and is generally too slow to make an actual impact. I wouldn't leave home without Angel of Sanctions, which gives you a perfect catch all to answer just about any problem you'll come across.
Your mana base looks rough. Only 21 lands. 3 Ghost Qrtr.. 5 Forest.... Why 5 forest? There's a lot I'm not feeling about that mana base. I feel like you're gonna be mulling way too many games, purely based on drawing bad combinations of lands?
I'd say there's no way to deny luck plays a massive factor in things.
You can play everything perfectly, but If you only draw 1 land in 5 turns, you're gonna lose. If you draw a land every turn, you're gonna lose. Your opponent top decks their 1 of sideboard hate at the perfect moment, you're gonna lose. You meta perfectly, but somehow still end up facing your worst match up, chances are you're gonna lose. Your opponent is beating you down with 1-2 dudes, and somehow you just don't draw any of your 15 pieces of removal... You're gonna lose, Etc, etc.
Or it works the other way too.
You put no thought into your meta choice, and just play the deck you like, by luck of the draw happen to dodge all your bad match-ups, and hey, you just slayed that tournament. Or maybe You do end up against your worst match, but they get mana screwed and you get the win anyway. Or how about that time you top decked that sideboard card JUST IN TIME, and hey you just won, purely because of good luck. Or remember that game where you just happened to draw your entire combo in your opening hand?
Luck plays a massive part in this game.
-How many times is Thought Scour going to mill Goryo's Vengeance, when you have Gris in the yard?
-How many times is Scour going to mill Gris when you have Through the breach in your hand?
-How many times is Scour going to mill a Land when your mana screwed?
Scour can badly back fire on you. The lack of true card selection is a huge draw back.
Very different cards.
There's so many cool angles you could take this with this deck.
You can play without them pretty easily. You usually have better things to blink with Cat, or return with Rallier. Wish finds Saheeli, so it has that angle covered. Oath can grab a land though which can be helpful.
The card is very good, I know all the things you can do with it, but i'm not so sure you actually need it.
I saw another user post about Glittering Wish, and the more I think about it, the more the idea intrigues me. It might end up being a bunk idea, but it's an interesting angle.
This sounds like a stupid problem, but I seriously feel like this shell is so good, I have success no matter how I set up my list. I've tried so many different things, and done great with all of them. I've brewed on a lot of decks over the years, but with this one, I just can't for the life of my find an optimum set up when everything I try is working.
It can grab all sorts of stuff, and we wouldn't really even need to change a whole lot to support it.
Also, Lejoon, what are your impressions on the black splash for Rhino? I'm the one that was trying out the 5c brew with Rhinos. It feels powerful, but as with all adjustments to this deck, it's hard to tell which set up is optimum. I'm juts curious to hear your thoughts after trying a list with Rhinos? Also did you get a chance to live the dream, and copy Rhinos with Saheeli? Feels so powerful when you get to do that.
I'm actually super interested in testing that out. Seems to have potential. Interesting tech with the mana reducers.
Burn, ~10 different Death Shadow Variants.
Samut, The Tested
He puts our combo together all by himself. In fact he can put all sorts of combos together.
Thoughts?
Some other cards to consider when thinking about a black splash:
Sin Collector
Anafenza, the Foremost
Orzhov Pontiff
Pharika, God of Affliction
Nekrataal
Shriekmaw
Blood Baron of Vizkopa
How did you sac a 3 mana card to Evo, and get a 6 mana card?
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Voice of Resurgence
4 Kitchen Finks
2 Siege Rhino
1 Eternal Witness
1 Renegade Rallier
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Angel of Sanctions
4 Felidar Guardian
4 Saheeli Rai
3 Oath of Nissa
3 Eldritch Evolution
2 Path to Exile
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Razorverge Thicket
2 Temple Garden
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Ground
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Godless Shrine
1 Overgrown Tomb
2 Forest
1 Plains
2 Stony Silence
2 Worship
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Anafenza, the Foremost
1 Magus of the Moat
1 Linvala, keeper of Silence
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Cataclysmic Gearhulk
-2/0 GW Coco
-1/2 GR Valukut
-2/0 Grixis Shadow
-2/1 BW Tokens
-2/0 Grixis Control
After testing so many different variants, and having success with pretty much all of them, I'm convinced this shell is just flat out good. I feel like i'm doing really dang good in testing no matter how I set up the deck. Granted i'm testing on Cockatrice, so there's a good chance i'm just matching up against inexperienced players, but it's still promising results, and convinces me this deck is worth playing right now.
The 5c list ran surprisingly well. The main drawback of the 5c list is obv the mana base. I basically left out all the bells and whistles of any tech lands, and just went straight for color. Yeah it's 5 colors, but it's really a GW deck with small splashes. With the mana base set up, and the 8 dorks, I never had any issues with casting my cards.
Siege Rhino unsurprisingly is a friggin house. He can stabilize a game basically on his own, or close the show within a few turns. Blinking with Cat feels great, but copying with Saheeli is just insane, and puts absurd pressure on the opponent. Casting it wasn't in issue when drawn, but easily the best Evo target to sac Voice into. Feels super powerful.
4 Finks is value city, and felt pretty good. Another good card to blink with Cat, and you can even reset it after persisting once. Between Voice, and Finks, it's really hard for opponents to deal with everything, and still be able to stop our combo.
Turns out Tireless Tracker is really good. Hard to see the cards power until you play with it, but you, AND your opponent will quickly realize this guy needs to be dealt with ASAP, or he will get out of control quick.