I took down the local Sunday tourney at my LGS with the Teeg splash, wining a badlands and a taiga. Replays of my round 2 (UWR) and finals (miracles) games are here currently:
[Warning - Game 1 lasts half an hour as I get counterbalance locked turn 3, can't play through the lock, and cant draw a karakas to deal with Clique]
Played ascendancy (2-0), UWR delver (2-1), ant (0-2), ant (2-0), ant (2-0) and miracles (2-1). Meta has been weird lately. Teeg is auto-win against ANT game 1 and shores up a lot of popular local matchups. Miracles lists locally are playing baneslayer post board making cataclysm worse in the matchup. Considering loxodon smiter as a wilt leaf replacement and shaving a cataclsym, as the mana base feels too stretched for cavern currently and it has game against miracles, delver and rock decks (slowly starting to resurge). Never saw library or choke in any games so nothing to report. For the third time in two years I lived the vial on 2 + e tutor + canopy + 2 mana in response to brainstorm/ponder dream in the semis. Considering -1 Cataclysm -1 Tutor + 2 loxodon next time I play this list.
"Konda's Banner may only be attached to a legendary creature."
This means we can't run it.
Even if you load up on the full 4 Brimaz and 4 Mangara, that leaves us with only 12 targets for the card. On top of that, it doesn't by any measure trump the protections of SoFaI, the oppressive nature of Jitte, or the card advantage/lifelink of Batterskull. While I like the card a lot, the combination of there being too few targets to wave this flag, and the strict downgrade to other equipment means that it doesn't work out well. Also, it pumps your opponent's creatures as well...
Realistically we would be looking at 8-11 Legends (roughly 20% of the deck) with the Brimaz/Banner plan. I don't see how equipping one is in any way unrealistic. The banner would draw removal no differently than a jittie and its intended use is a way to gain advantage and blank punishing fire and -1/-1 effects against the jund and b/g m/us.
It would obviously be boarded out in the mirror/SFM decks. Making free 3/3 tokens and turning mom into a Wild Nactl is at least worth exploring. Crusader as a 4/4 doublestriker without any equipment is worth exploring. It gives the deck resilience against -1/-1 effects we have been looking for. Can be tutored for easier than something like Honor of the Pure. Most jund players have caught onto the Wilt-leaf off the board plan.
Personally I don't think Brimaz fits in the deck at all, but it is an interesting idea to test on the board at the least for this aggro/control "paradigm shift." I am more interested in figuring out how to slot the Spirit into the control shell then I am in building a pseduo solider tribal deck. But we shouldn't discount ideas because "that's not how we've done things in the past." Mangara, for example, has been one of the sacred cows of the deck since its inception yet placements at the recent opens have been about 50/50 with and without it.
How do you arrive at that conclusion? Now is the time to stack Legendary creatures for more Karakas synergy, and having more 3-drops makes Vial at 3 better, which makes Mangara better...
If the aggro plan is to load up on legendary creatures and maximize CA from Brimaz, might I propose this change to the SFM package: Konda's Banner
Thalia (Human/Solider) and Brimaz (Cat/Solider) share creature types (and a color, yay mono-white) with large portions of the deck:
Equipped to Brimaz the following happens:
+2/+2:
Brimaz 5/6 for 3 that makes 3/3 tokens (Blocks and attacks as an 8/9 considering token)
Thalia 4/3 First Striker for 2
+1/+1
All other white creatures (Avenger (4/4)/Mind Censor (3/2)/Crusader (3/3 double striker)/Mom (2/2)/SOL (4/2)/SFM (2/3)/Flicker (4/2))
Equipped to Thalia the following happens:
+2/+2:
Brimaz 5/6 for 3 that makes 3/3 tokens (Blocks and attacks as an 8/9 considering token)
Thalia 4/3 First Striker for 2
Crusader 4/4 Double Striker for 3
Mother of Runes 3/3 for 1
Mangara 3/3 for 3 (that can vindicate too I guess)
+1/+1
All other white creatures (Avenger (4/4)/Mind Censor (3/2)/SOL (4/2)/SFM (2/3)/Flicker (4/2))
End result:
Banner equipped to any non mangara legend + another creature = almost always a 2 turn goldfish
Examples:
1.)
Brimaz with Banner (5/6 -> virtual 8/9 on swing)
SFM that fetched Banner (2/3) = 10 power
Avenger (4/4) = 14 power swing one
Next turn
Brimaz with Banner (5/6 -> virtual 8/9 on swing)
3/3 Token from last combat = 11 power
SFM that fetched Banner (2/3) = 13 power
Avenger (4/4) = 17 power swing two
2.)
Thalia with banner (4/3)
Crusader (4/4 double striker)
= 12 power per swing
3.)
Thalia with banner (4/3)
Mother of Runes (3/3)
SFM (2/3)
= 9 Power a swing
Jund belongs in the eighth circle, in the eighth bolgia. Bolgia 8 (one of ten ditches or wells of stone located in a "field malign" (i.e. a... wait for it... badland)) within the eighth circle is reserved for "fraudulent advisers or evil counsellors." (i.e. a... dark confidant).
1.) I really like the flexibility UA gives as a board slot. My initial thoughts were that the extra mana vs. other forms of removal would hurt some percentage points but that the ability to hit, well, anything, would make up for it in the grand scheme of things.
What I discovered, however, was that time ebbing midrange decks (e.g. hitting a flipped delver with UA x=o, even without the nut "in response to fetch") has been super powerful with or without an active vial. I have been testing UA as if it were another one use mana denial tool against mana greedy decks (urw delver, deathblade, etc.), and less as an answer and the results have been fantastic. Since the spell requires WW it often acts as a bridge gap until I draw into a wasteland or port. We often just need that extra turn to set up the taxing and out tempo our opponents, and, with the shift away from Mangaras in the 75, we have lost a lot of the deck's original inevitability. I think this card seriously shores this problem up for us.
2.) Meekstone with Avenger (vigilance) + Batterskull (vigilance) + Crusader maindeck looks really good on paper and has tested well against TNN / delver / goyf decks for me.
3.) I may shave Cavern depending on anticipated control decks. With the muddying of creature types post TNN it feels weaker against countertop etc.
4.) RE: the recent e-tutor discussion. I know this has been debated to death in the thread but one of the main powers of e-tutor, as I have discovered in my own testing, is its power against discard effects. Casting it in response to cabal therapy always feels really really good. It also increases the value of canopy cantrips and, to the lists that run it, relic cantrips. (I cut relic in favor of cage due to issues with elves, which is probably my biggest fear at the open)
Surely, any deck that uses TNN will be an issue for this deck no matter which answer we use. I just don't know how good the card is. I'm waiting to see.
There are a number of answers to TNN in the e-tutor SB package that are also decent in other match ups:
I'm not sold on Wing Shards or Celestial Flare route IF Merfolk becomes the deck that favors TNN, as Merfolk will undoubtedly have other threats in play to sac to these spells. On the flip side of the coin, my prediction is that Stoneblade or perhaps a yet unseen blue devotion deck would favor this card moreso than Merfolk, which is already tight on slots and has multiple fast clocks thanks to its large volume of lords. Stoneblade, for example, would profit well from having additional threats that control the board in a similar manner as batterskull does.
If True-name nemesis truly ends up warping the Meta, my concern is more reaction of other legacy decks to the card than the card itself. I'd wager that TNN pushing a deck into T1 status would result in an influx of -x/-x spells. We may have to give reconsideration to the number of x/1's in the deck and might need to look at shifting larger bodies into the deck and sideboard. Anthem effects (Spear/Wilt Leaf) would become even more important in this scenario and D&T might shift back toward the aggro side of the aggro/control dichotomy D&T occupies.
I really like it except for the Thalia tax. However, it will hurt our Omni/Show and Tell matchup to take out cards like Relic Warder, Oblivion Ring, etc. Outside of Show and Tell however, I believe this card is superior.
I liken it to an instant speed Oblivion Ring at a 1 mana discount with greater color requirements.
I disagree. Against omni-tell you cast it in response to Enter the infinite to tuck Omniscience is essentially a win if they don't have a Force in hand. It deals with everything but the Flying Spaghetti Monster... which most show and tell decks are shying away from. Most of the lists I've seen online and the ones in my local meta are either going toward the Omni-Tell build for consistency or re-animator tech with Grisleband and a toolbox of utility creatures. At worst its a three mana time ebb (assuming Thalia Tax) which is devastating for a cheat deck if they are out of tricks and gas.
Another good example of how this card can be played: tucking a Deathrite turn 2 against Jund or Deathbalde creates a huge tempo swing. Testing may even show it better than StPing the deathrite. These match ups both swing in our favor if we have a turn or two extra to set up on the board. Tucking Deathrite means we've now denied an on field mana source AND forced them to choose between drawing back into Deathrite and taking two more turns to set him up or shuffling away for another land, which can easily walk into our other mana deniers. This deck thrives at creating bad choices for the opposing player by exploiting lack of information on the part of the opponent. This is another opportunity to do so, just in a manner we typically haven't seen in white.
The big downside to this card is the double white, more so than the anti-synergy with the thalia tax. Anti-synergy with Thalia doesn't stop us from running O-ring/RIP or other non-creature hate. The utility of this card (against decks with fetch lands) is pretty absurd. But at worst is a tremendous tempo gain even without the perma-tuck affect. At the least, its definitely strong sideboard material in a non e-tutor sb package because of the insane versatility it provides.
In your game 2 against MUD the first time, he was on the draw, Yes?
So wouldn't it go:
T1: Land
T1: Ancient Tomb -> Chalice 1)
T2: Land -> stony silence?
Did you keep a 1 lander or am I missing something?
No, I don't like to post down turns. Since MUD Chaliced at 1 and I boarded out most of my one drops I had no T1 play this game.
I'm afraid that doesn't work:
10/4/2004: City of Traitors does not trigger on lands that are put onto the battlefield without playing them.
Nice report however.
Thank you for pointing this out to me. I post here out of partly out of hopes the community will point out my misplays/improper rules interpretations so I can learn how to play better. Reading the card more carefully this seems super obvious now.
On reflection I also realized I somehow managed to play 2 Karakas in one turn against David. I don't think it would have altered the game (since I would not have overextended into his supreme verdict), but if you read this, sorry David!
What about a Nevermore?
It could do double duty against Punishing Fires and combo decks: several of those OmniWish lists have no MD win condition, relying on Cunning Wish to pull them in from the board. Nevermore on their Cunning Wish seems like a smooth move.
Obviously it is too slow against fast combo and looks pretty sad with a Thalia out, but on the other hand, it looks like a sweet Flickerwisp target.
With Jund and this mono blue concoction bringing up the low end of the matchups scale, having one card good in both circumstances would be a welcome addition.
I really like this idea as part of an e-tutor package for dealing with combo and mono u omnishow. I also like the relic warder package in a traditional board list.
My Report from Last Saturday, I placed second. I played dredge three times. LGS’ AC was out, there was only 6 of us. 2 Dredge decks, 1 SprialTide, 1 sneak and Show, 1 MUD and me. I played Sneak and Show, Dredge, Mud and Dredge again to make the finals, played Dredge and lost in finals. I didn’t take good notes so this report will be short.
**Game 1: Lose roll. Turn 2 Show and Tell into The Flying Spagetti Monster. Had nothing relevant to cheat, (i.e. Mangara)
+3 E-Tutor +1 O-Ring +1 Ensnaring Bridge
-4STP – 1 Mother of Runes
**Game 2: Opener had Mangara and Revoker, no E-tutor package. I keep. T3 S&T Cthulu walks into Mangara (or Karakas I forgot which but I had the lock set up next turn). He plays a Blood Moon to stop my mangara lock, I topdeck E-Tutor and O-ring his Blood Moon. Crusader smashes face while he is stuck on an island.
**Game 3: Similar to Game 2, he gets two Blood Moons out at one point, while I sit on 4 lands. He intuitions for a Show and Tell and 2 Flying Squids, I give him Squids. Revoker comes out naming Sneak Attack blind then next turn Griselbrand. After he scoops he shows me he deboarded his 3x show and tells by accident. C’est la vie.
Match 2: LED Dredge, no post board enchantment hate. (2-1)
(Same player from last week.)
**Game 1: Very grindy game. Jitte kills my own mom to strip bridges, batterskull and thalia/mangara keeps his board in check. I eventually out attrition him.
**Game 2: We both mull to 5, I can’t hit gy hate. He combos out turn 2 or 3.
**Game 3: T2 RIP wins the game. Nothing else to say.
Match 3 MUD (0-2)
**Game 1: T2 Revoker naming metalworker blind loses me the game in the long run. Next turn Monolith + Voltaic key brings a steady stream of Wurmcoil Engines. Batterskull keeps the board stalled to the point we both hit ~50 life. He eventually forgemasters into blightsteel for the win.
- 4 Mother + 3 E-Tutor + 1 Stoney Silence
** Game 2: I keep a stoney silence opener. He goes T1 Ancient tomb into chalice on 1, t2 trinisphere. I cant hit third land to get stoney out and Blightsteel finishes the job.
Match 4: LED Dredge (with enchantment post board) (2-1)
**Game 1: I learn later that Pilot has a better post board list , with Emerald charms to hit RIPS, but this was a borrowed deck and my opponent didn’t know how to watch triggers. I keep him off 3 on board creatures, kill my mom with Jittie to exile bridges, and Crusader/Batterskull controls zombie tokens until I wipe board.
**Game 2: I again fail to hit gy hate. Eventually he gets the alpha strike and we go to game 3.
**Game 3: Third time this night I couldn’t draw into gy hate, but he over extends and mills himself out of the running. Jitte to kill mom again clears bridges out and Crusader/Batterskull keeps me alive until I can go on offensive.
Finals: LED Dredge (Match 2 Player)
At this point I had sweated nearly to death from the lack of air conditioning. I don’t remember mutch from this match because of my bad post game notes. We go 1-1 and Game 3 he cabal therapies E-tutor from hand. I draw into RIP which he gets blind with therapy down the road. Eventually get overwhelemed by zombie tokens. Finishes me at second place.
….Which takes me to last night. FMN Legacy at a different LGS. 17 Players, every one is playing fair decks or blue control except one belcher player (who I Thankfully don’t get paired against). 5 matches: I go 3-0 with no losses, agree to tie Matches 4 and 5 since I have guaranteed top 8 seat. Match 4 and 5 players don’t want to play for fun to keep deck secret for top 8.
I adjusted my sb list out of paranoia of a MUD matchup, the deck I’ve been having the most trouble with (which of course I end up playing match one of top 8). Turns out Serenity was overkill (See below)
Match 1: Esper Deathblade piloted by David Winsauer (2-0)
I’ve started getting a reputation as “the new death and taxes guy” in my meta (Because everyone hates playing against my deck), so David knew what I was playing when we sat down. David was very friendly and helped me understand Mangara priority a little better.
** Game 1: David gets out an early batterskull. Mom keeps it from doing anything relevant until I can develop my board. Chain flickerwisps reset his germ token. He bounces batterskull and replays it several times, turning my flickerwisp into a better port. I eventually outclock him with flyers. I keep second white mana ported down to avoid supreme verdict.
-1 Mangara + 1 Sword of Light and Shadow
** Game 2: I get mangara lock set up. David tricks (maybe not the right word choice) me into passing priority by asking what my target was, corrects me and teaches me how to avoid misplaying him again. I return the favor by letting him correct a misplayed Bob trigger later in the match. I have solid board control the rest of the game, but I draw into Batterskull with a SFM and jittie on the table, so I let up on keeping his white mana ported in favor of blue to avoid Clique. I use chain flickerwisps to tempo him again, but overextend into a supreme verdict, leaving us both with an blank batterskull. I draw into three karakas at one point, and legend rule the extra with a white floating to play a flickerwisp. (This play will be nicer with the new legend rule) Since we were near time, David could have stalled us into a 1-0-1 result, but I get a threat on board and he concedes.
Match 2: NO-Pro with black splash for removal and deathrite. (2-0)
** Game 1: I revoke early Noble Hierach. I guess that he is playing NO-Pro at this point. Mirran Crusader keeps his only goyf in check and I slowly clock him in the air with a flickerwisp, so he eventually NOs into into Pro. I SFM into batterskull. His Pro gets me to 10, I equip batterskull to crusader and swing for 12 for the win.
+3 E Tutor + 1 Cop Red- 4 Revoker
** Game 2: I keep a Double E-tutor opener, but end up not needing it. I Curve perfectly this game, going Vial, Thalia, Vial Mom, Hardcast Flickerwisp, SMF into BS, Play BS, Flickerwisp SFM for a second tutor, Play jittie and go to town. He did nothing relevant this game and I never used either E-tutor. I probably could have
Match 3: Dredge! (Getting sick of this deck) (2-1)
** Game 1: I go with my usual game 1 SFM into Jitte line of play to try and pop bridges. I get them out and stabilize…. But he ends up having one more zombie token than I can handle.
** Game 2: I mull to 4 trying to hit GY hate. Keep E tutor Waste Port Plains hand. RIP comes down, he jokes about racing me with a putrid Imp. Dosent scoop until I draw into a SFM 5 turns later.
** Game 3: I keep opener with relic, thalia, port plains, SFM and Flicker. T1 relic draws a grown, thalia wasteland and port keep him manaless. Revoker names LED. He stalls out trying to get dredgers in the yard and eventually scoops. With no cards in hand, no faithless looting to flashback.
Match 4 / 5. As mentioned above I draw these games having already made top 8. I play edh with my Karador Junk/deck against some one borrowing my Jenara voltron deck. But that’s a report for another thread.
Top 8: MUD
** Game 1: I again name something beside monolith (never ever doing that again) with revoker. Mana denial gets up, I flicker a Ancient tomb at one point to kill his City of Traitors, he runs out of gas with double monolith, key and lightining greaves on board. Mangara exiles his only threat (Wurmcoil)
** Game 2: I keep opener with stoney silence. He drops t1 Chalice, I get stony into play, blanking his board. Wasteland keeps him stuck on a single ancient tomb. I flickerwisp chalice, he replays a second one at 1, I flickerwisp the second one, and swords his only creature. He scoops.
We agree to split top 4, since it was 2 am at this point. I trade my store credit in for a Leyline of Sanctity and Powdered Keg. I trade for a Helm of Obedience (will be relevant in a minute) and an Aura of Silence.
All and all I am very happy with how my list is running, its just a matter of adjusting the e-tutor package. I find the e-tutor silver bullet plan very strong in a fair/blue deck meta… but am aware that if I use this side board plan the meta will adapt to it. One of the RUG delver players has added Sulfuric and Engineered Plague now. If the meta adapts to more combo decks *might* abandon the e-tutor package for a mindtrap all purpose board.
Next week I plan on trying something very radical with the sideboard:
+1 Crawlspace. I actually think this is a better hate card for dredge than graveyard hate, assuming the player has enchantment hate or knows how to blind play therapy. 2 ichorids a turn is beyond easy for this deck to handle. I also think this does a good job of replacing Cataclysm in several of our matchups for the E-Tutor board.
+1 Helm of Obedience. I mulled playing a transformational board last night but couldn’t get them helm until after. I am going to test this play as a trick play for stoneblade, miricles and MUD.
**
Now that I know what Mono Blue Omnishow runs, if it is becoming a problem, I want to suggest the following hate card in a E-tutor package, that I run as part of my stax package in my edh Arcum stax deck: Uba Mask. This with a canonist or Thalia in play blanks Enter the infinite if you play in response to Show and Tell. Who cares if they draw their deck if they cant do anything with it and it gets exiled at EoT. As long as you pro blue your hate card (thalia/canonist) with mom in response to show and tell, they wont be able to avoid exiling their library with this in play. But I would want to test this to know for sure, as I just don’t know the match up that well.
Oh I am pretty sure we come out ahead with this rules change. This is a subtle, but definite tilt in our direction. We are all going to find that we have more options than we used to concerning the legend rule. It will be common too. Nothing grand, but options nonetheless.
StT: I have experienced the Show and Tell mirror a few times (albeit from a time before Grisel because this was when Emrakul was spoiled - but I suspect it is much the same) and I can tell you that it was always like this. You can't really cast Show and Tell in the mirror unless you have discard coming in form the side or some similar plan. Merfolk just keeps their Vial at two and brings in the Image after Show and Tell has resolved or (often) they just hard cast it on their next turn. Also, we are talking about Gilded Drake too - though that card never really caught on. None of them are as good a solution as the combination of cards we field.
Has anyone other than Monovfox had any experience against the monoblue variant of Show and Tell? I know I always say this before I test it but, it looks like a hard matchup for us.
I've tested against it a few times. It is a rough match up for us, but thankfully the deck is very inconsistent. While mana denial is the best way to win game one, Thalia does not affect your hive mind spell copy so it offers no protection against the upkeep loss trigger. Mindcensor shuts off intuition and fetches. The deck, like most non tes/belcher combo decks, has a very fragile mana base. Revoker should name Monolith
Postboard, the match up improves with a standard board as Cannonist buys an extra turn to mangara or o-ring hive off the table.
The best answers against the deck are a Sundial of the infinite in an e-tutor package; Angel's Grace or a Judge's Familar to counter your free copy of whatever pact. These cards offer the best protection we can get from the upkeep loss trigger.
Do not side out flickerwisp or stp in this MU, as exile effects take care of beats from hard-casted Titan tokens. Once mind is disabled the rest of match up becomes standard show and tell matchup with less bombs and less counter magic. Our weakest cards are crusader/avenger and mom in this match. Don't discount your mana denial and save wasteland for volcanic island; I've won two games testing against Hive Mind hard casting pact of titan followed by me wasting their only red source.
When multiple copies are on the battlefield under one player's control, that player chooses one to put into the graveyard as a state-based effect until only one remains. You will still only be allowed to have one version or copy of Jace or Geist of Saint Traft on the battlefield at one time, but your opponent will be allowed to have one as well. If you play a second, or one comes into play under your control for another reason (such as an Oblivion Ring leaving play), you will choose which one you wish to retain. This will allow you to somewhat mitigate the downside of drawing a second copy of a Planeswalker by playing that copy to, in effect, refresh the loyalty of a Planeswalker or to get a second enters-the-battlefield trigger on a legendary permanent. http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/248f
And then Wizards goes and changes a major factor in our deck and sideboard construction.
Back to the drawing board! No more dead Karakas draws! Thalia/Mangara are playable in the mirror vs. Maverick! The sky is falling if you read any other thread!
http://southfloridamagic.com/leonin-arbiter-a-gentleman-and-a-scholar/
UWR at 00:10:35
http://www.twitch.tv/southfloridamagic/b/610240748
http://www.twitch.tv/southfloridamagic/b/610319304
Miracles at
3:01:45
http://www.twitch.tv/southfloridamagic/b/610240748
http://www.twitch.tv/southfloridamagic/b/610298483
[Warning - Game 1 lasts half an hour as I get counterbalance locked turn 3, can't play through the lock, and cant draw a karakas to deal with Clique]
Played ascendancy (2-0), UWR delver (2-1), ant (0-2), ant (2-0), ant (2-0) and miracles (2-1). Meta has been weird lately. Teeg is auto-win against ANT game 1 and shores up a lot of popular local matchups. Miracles lists locally are playing baneslayer post board making cataclysm worse in the matchup. Considering loxodon smiter as a wilt leaf replacement and shaving a cataclsym, as the mana base feels too stretched for cavern currently and it has game against miracles, delver and rock decks (slowly starting to resurge). Never saw library or choke in any games so nothing to report. For the third time in two years I lived the vial on 2 + e tutor + canopy + 2 mana in response to brainstorm/ponder dream in the semis. Considering -1 Cataclysm -1 Tutor + 2 loxodon next time I play this list.
4 Mother of Runes
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Serra Avenger
3 Flickerwisp
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
2 Savannah
4 White Fetchlands
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Rest in Peace
1 Graffdigger's Cage
2 Containment Priest
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Choke
1 Sylvan Library
2 Cataclysm
2 Council's Judgment
2 Ethersworn Cannonist
Realistically we would be looking at 8-11 Legends (roughly 20% of the deck) with the Brimaz/Banner plan. I don't see how equipping one is in any way unrealistic. The banner would draw removal no differently than a jittie and its intended use is a way to gain advantage and blank punishing fire and -1/-1 effects against the jund and b/g m/us.
It would obviously be boarded out in the mirror/SFM decks. Making free 3/3 tokens and turning mom into a Wild Nactl is at least worth exploring. Crusader as a 4/4 doublestriker without any equipment is worth exploring. It gives the deck resilience against -1/-1 effects we have been looking for. Can be tutored for easier than something like Honor of the Pure. Most jund players have caught onto the Wilt-leaf off the board plan.
Personally I don't think Brimaz fits in the deck at all, but it is an interesting idea to test on the board at the least for this aggro/control "paradigm shift." I am more interested in figuring out how to slot the Spirit into the control shell then I am in building a pseduo solider tribal deck. But we shouldn't discount ideas because "that's not how we've done things in the past." Mangara, for example, has been one of the sacred cows of the deck since its inception yet placements at the recent opens have been about 50/50 with and without it.
If the aggro plan is to load up on legendary creatures and maximize CA from Brimaz, might I propose this change to the SFM package:
Konda's Banner
Thalia (Human/Solider) and Brimaz (Cat/Solider) share creature types (and a color, yay mono-white) with large portions of the deck:
Equipped to Brimaz the following happens:
+2/+2:
Brimaz 5/6 for 3 that makes 3/3 tokens (Blocks and attacks as an 8/9 considering token)
Thalia 4/3 First Striker for 2
+1/+1
All other white creatures (Avenger (4/4)/Mind Censor (3/2)/Crusader (3/3 double striker)/Mom (2/2)/SOL (4/2)/SFM (2/3)/Flicker (4/2))
Equipped to Thalia the following happens:
+2/+2:
Brimaz 5/6 for 3 that makes 3/3 tokens (Blocks and attacks as an 8/9 considering token)
Thalia 4/3 First Striker for 2
Crusader 4/4 Double Striker for 3
Mother of Runes 3/3 for 1
Mangara 3/3 for 3 (that can vindicate too I guess)
+1/+1
All other white creatures (Avenger (4/4)/Mind Censor (3/2)/SOL (4/2)/SFM (2/3)/Flicker (4/2))
End result:
Banner equipped to any non mangara legend + another creature = almost always a 2 turn goldfish
Examples:
1.)
Brimaz with Banner (5/6 -> virtual 8/9 on swing)
SFM that fetched Banner (2/3) = 10 power
Avenger (4/4) = 14 power swing one
Next turn
Brimaz with Banner (5/6 -> virtual 8/9 on swing)
3/3 Token from last combat = 11 power
SFM that fetched Banner (2/3) = 13 power
Avenger (4/4) = 17 power swing two
2.)
Thalia with banner (4/3)
Crusader (4/4 double striker)
= 12 power per swing
3.)
Thalia with banner (4/3)
Mother of Runes (3/3)
SFM (2/3)
= 9 Power a swing
Nope just 5 minutes on google and ctr + f.
Jund belongs in the eighth circle, in the eighth bolgia. Bolgia 8 (one of ten ditches or wells of stone located in a "field malign" (i.e. a... wait for it... badland)) within the eighth circle is reserved for "fraudulent advisers or evil counsellors." (i.e. a... dark confidant).
Haven't had much time to play / post lately. Here is the list I am looking at running at the Orlando open:
9 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas
1 Cavern of Souls
Creatures
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Flickerwisp
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Aven Mindcensor
3 Serra Avenger
2 Mirran Crusader
4 AEther Vial
1 Batterskull
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Rest in Peace
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Meekstone
2 Cataclysm
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Cursed Totem
1 Unexpectedly Absent
1 Serenity
Few quick notes:
1.) I really like the flexibility UA gives as a board slot. My initial thoughts were that the extra mana vs. other forms of removal would hurt some percentage points but that the ability to hit, well, anything, would make up for it in the grand scheme of things.
What I discovered, however, was that time ebbing midrange decks (e.g. hitting a flipped delver with UA x=o, even without the nut "in response to fetch") has been super powerful with or without an active vial. I have been testing UA as if it were another one use mana denial tool against mana greedy decks (urw delver, deathblade, etc.), and less as an answer and the results have been fantastic. Since the spell requires WW it often acts as a bridge gap until I draw into a wasteland or port. We often just need that extra turn to set up the taxing and out tempo our opponents, and, with the shift away from Mangaras in the 75, we have lost a lot of the deck's original inevitability. I think this card seriously shores this problem up for us.
2.) Meekstone with Avenger (vigilance) + Batterskull (vigilance) + Crusader maindeck looks really good on paper and has tested well against TNN / delver / goyf decks for me.
3.) I may shave Cavern depending on anticipated control decks. With the muddying of creature types post TNN it feels weaker against countertop etc.
4.) RE: the recent e-tutor discussion. I know this has been debated to death in the thread but one of the main powers of e-tutor, as I have discovered in my own testing, is its power against discard effects. Casting it in response to cabal therapy always feels really really good. It also increases the value of canopy cantrips and, to the lists that run it, relic cantrips. (I cut relic in favor of cage due to issues with elves, which is probably my biggest fear at the open)
There are a number of answers to TNN in the e-tutor SB package that are also decent in other match ups:
Moat
Circle of Protection: Blue
Runed Halo
Nevermore
Humility
I'm not sold on Wing Shards or Celestial Flare route IF Merfolk becomes the deck that favors TNN, as Merfolk will undoubtedly have other threats in play to sac to these spells. On the flip side of the coin, my prediction is that Stoneblade or perhaps a yet unseen blue devotion deck would favor this card moreso than Merfolk, which is already tight on slots and has multiple fast clocks thanks to its large volume of lords. Stoneblade, for example, would profit well from having additional threats that control the board in a similar manner as batterskull does.
If True-name nemesis truly ends up warping the Meta, my concern is more reaction of other legacy decks to the card than the card itself. I'd wager that TNN pushing a deck into T1 status would result in an influx of -x/-x spells. We may have to give reconsideration to the number of x/1's in the deck and might need to look at shifting larger bodies into the deck and sideboard. Anthem effects (Spear/Wilt Leaf) would become even more important in this scenario and D&T might shift back toward the aggro side of the aggro/control dichotomy D&T occupies.
I disagree. Against omni-tell you cast it in response to Enter the infinite to tuck Omniscience is essentially a win if they don't have a Force in hand. It deals with everything but the Flying Spaghetti Monster... which most show and tell decks are shying away from. Most of the lists I've seen online and the ones in my local meta are either going toward the Omni-Tell build for consistency or re-animator tech with Grisleband and a toolbox of utility creatures. At worst its a three mana time ebb (assuming Thalia Tax) which is devastating for a cheat deck if they are out of tricks and gas.
Another good example of how this card can be played: tucking a Deathrite turn 2 against Jund or Deathbalde creates a huge tempo swing. Testing may even show it better than StPing the deathrite. These match ups both swing in our favor if we have a turn or two extra to set up on the board. Tucking Deathrite means we've now denied an on field mana source AND forced them to choose between drawing back into Deathrite and taking two more turns to set him up or shuffling away for another land, which can easily walk into our other mana deniers. This deck thrives at creating bad choices for the opposing player by exploiting lack of information on the part of the opponent. This is another opportunity to do so, just in a manner we typically haven't seen in white.
The big downside to this card is the double white, more so than the anti-synergy with the thalia tax. Anti-synergy with Thalia doesn't stop us from running O-ring/RIP or other non-creature hate. The utility of this card (against decks with fetch lands) is pretty absurd. But at worst is a tremendous tempo gain even without the perma-tuck affect. At the least, its definitely strong sideboard material in a non e-tutor sb package because of the insane versatility it provides.
Time to test.
X can be zero.
In response to your fetch, tuck Jace/Jittie/Batterskull/Goyf/whatever for ww.
Seems really good.
No, I don't like to post down turns. Since MUD Chaliced at 1 and I boarded out most of my one drops I had no T1 play this game.
Thank you for pointing this out to me. I post here out of partly out of hopes the community will point out my misplays/improper rules interpretations so I can learn how to play better. Reading the card more carefully this seems super obvious now.
On reflection I also realized I somehow managed to play 2 Karakas in one turn against David. I don't think it would have altered the game (since I would not have overextended into his supreme verdict), but if you read this, sorry David!
I really like this idea as part of an e-tutor package for dealing with combo and mono u omnishow. I also like the relic warder package in a traditional board list.
****
My Report from Last Saturday, I placed second. I played dredge three times. LGS’ AC was out, there was only 6 of us. 2 Dredge decks, 1 SprialTide, 1 sneak and Show, 1 MUD and me. I played Sneak and Show, Dredge, Mud and Dredge again to make the finals, played Dredge and lost in finals. I didn’t take good notes so this report will be short.
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor
2 Aven Mindcensor
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Batterskull
4 Rishadan Port
4 Karakas
2 Horizon Canopy
9 Plains
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Rest in Peace
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Stony Silence
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Pithing Needle
1 Circle of Protection: Red
Match 1: Show and Tell (2-1)
**Game 1: Lose roll. Turn 2 Show and Tell into The Flying Spagetti Monster. Had nothing relevant to cheat, (i.e. Mangara)
+3 E-Tutor +1 O-Ring +1 Ensnaring Bridge
-4STP – 1 Mother of Runes
**Game 2: Opener had Mangara and Revoker, no E-tutor package. I keep. T3 S&T Cthulu walks into Mangara (or Karakas I forgot which but I had the lock set up next turn). He plays a Blood Moon to stop my mangara lock, I topdeck E-Tutor and O-ring his Blood Moon. Crusader smashes face while he is stuck on an island.
**Game 3: Similar to Game 2, he gets two Blood Moons out at one point, while I sit on 4 lands. He intuitions for a Show and Tell and 2 Flying Squids, I give him Squids. Revoker comes out naming Sneak Attack blind then next turn Griselbrand. After he scoops he shows me he deboarded his 3x show and tells by accident. C’est la vie.
Match 2: LED Dredge, no post board enchantment hate. (2-1)
(Same player from last week.)
**Game 1: Very grindy game. Jitte kills my own mom to strip bridges, batterskull and thalia/mangara keeps his board in check. I eventually out attrition him.
+3 E-Tutor +3 RIP
-2 Aven Mindcensor -1 Mother –1 Thalia -1 Vial
**Game 2: We both mull to 5, I can’t hit gy hate. He combos out turn 2 or 3.
**Game 3: T2 RIP wins the game. Nothing else to say.
Match 3 MUD (0-2)
**Game 1: T2 Revoker naming metalworker blind loses me the game in the long run. Next turn Monolith + Voltaic key brings a steady stream of Wurmcoil Engines. Batterskull keeps the board stalled to the point we both hit ~50 life. He eventually forgemasters into blightsteel for the win.
- 4 Mother + 3 E-Tutor + 1 Stoney Silence
** Game 2: I keep a stoney silence opener. He goes T1 Ancient tomb into chalice on 1, t2 trinisphere. I cant hit third land to get stoney out and Blightsteel finishes the job.
Match 4: LED Dredge (with enchantment post board) (2-1)
**Game 1: I learn later that Pilot has a better post board list , with Emerald charms to hit RIPS, but this was a borrowed deck and my opponent didn’t know how to watch triggers. I keep him off 3 on board creatures, kill my mom with Jittie to exile bridges, and Crusader/Batterskull controls zombie tokens until I wipe board.
**Game 2: I again fail to hit gy hate. Eventually he gets the alpha strike and we go to game 3.
**Game 3: Third time this night I couldn’t draw into gy hate, but he over extends and mills himself out of the running. Jitte to kill mom again clears bridges out and Crusader/Batterskull keeps me alive until I can go on offensive.
Finals: LED Dredge (Match 2 Player)
At this point I had sweated nearly to death from the lack of air conditioning. I don’t remember mutch from this match because of my bad post game notes. We go 1-1 and Game 3 he cabal therapies E-tutor from hand. I draw into RIP which he gets blind with therapy down the road. Eventually get overwhelemed by zombie tokens. Finishes me at second place.
….Which takes me to last night. FMN Legacy at a different LGS. 17 Players, every one is playing fair decks or blue control except one belcher player (who I Thankfully don’t get paired against). 5 matches: I go 3-0 with no losses, agree to tie Matches 4 and 5 since I have guaranteed top 8 seat. Match 4 and 5 players don’t want to play for fun to keep deck secret for top 8.
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor
2 Aven Mindcensor
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Batterskull
4 Rishadan Port
4 Karakas
2 Horizon Canopy
9 Plains
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Rest in Peace
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Stony Silence
1 Pithing Needle
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Serenity
I adjusted my sb list out of paranoia of a MUD matchup, the deck I’ve been having the most trouble with (which of course I end up playing match one of top 8). Turns out Serenity was overkill (See below)
Match 1: Esper Deathblade piloted by David Winsauer (2-0)
I’ve started getting a reputation as “the new death and taxes guy” in my meta (Because everyone hates playing against my deck), so David knew what I was playing when we sat down. David was very friendly and helped me understand Mangara priority a little better.
** Game 1: David gets out an early batterskull. Mom keeps it from doing anything relevant until I can develop my board. Chain flickerwisps reset his germ token. He bounces batterskull and replays it several times, turning my flickerwisp into a better port. I eventually outclock him with flyers. I keep second white mana ported down to avoid supreme verdict.
-1 Mangara + 1 Sword of Light and Shadow
** Game 2: I get mangara lock set up. David tricks (maybe not the right word choice) me into passing priority by asking what my target was, corrects me and teaches me how to avoid misplaying him again. I return the favor by letting him correct a misplayed Bob trigger later in the match. I have solid board control the rest of the game, but I draw into Batterskull with a SFM and jittie on the table, so I let up on keeping his white mana ported in favor of blue to avoid Clique. I use chain flickerwisps to tempo him again, but overextend into a supreme verdict, leaving us both with an blank batterskull. I draw into three karakas at one point, and legend rule the extra with a white floating to play a flickerwisp. (This play will be nicer with the new legend rule) Since we were near time, David could have stalled us into a 1-0-1 result, but I get a threat on board and he concedes.
Match 2: NO-Pro with black splash for removal and deathrite. (2-0)
** Game 1: I revoke early Noble Hierach. I guess that he is playing NO-Pro at this point. Mirran Crusader keeps his only goyf in check and I slowly clock him in the air with a flickerwisp, so he eventually NOs into into Pro. I SFM into batterskull. His Pro gets me to 10, I equip batterskull to crusader and swing for 12 for the win.
+3 E Tutor + 1 Cop Red- 4 Revoker
** Game 2: I keep a Double E-tutor opener, but end up not needing it. I Curve perfectly this game, going Vial, Thalia, Vial Mom, Hardcast Flickerwisp, SMF into BS, Play BS, Flickerwisp SFM for a second tutor, Play jittie and go to town. He did nothing relevant this game and I never used either E-tutor. I probably could have
Match 3: Dredge! (Getting sick of this deck) (2-1)
** Game 1: I go with my usual game 1 SFM into Jitte line of play to try and pop bridges. I get them out and stabilize…. But he ends up having one more zombie token than I can handle.
- 4 Vial – 2 Mindcensor + 3 E tutor + 1 relic +2 Rip
** Game 2: I mull to 4 trying to hit GY hate. Keep E tutor Waste Port Plains hand. RIP comes down, he jokes about racing me with a putrid Imp. Dosent scoop until I draw into a SFM 5 turns later.
** Game 3: I keep opener with relic, thalia, port plains, SFM and Flicker. T1 relic draws a grown, thalia wasteland and port keep him manaless. Revoker names LED. He stalls out trying to get dredgers in the yard and eventually scoops. With no cards in hand, no faithless looting to flashback.
Match 4 / 5. As mentioned above I draw these games having already made top 8. I play edh with my Karador Junk/deck against some one borrowing my Jenara voltron deck. But that’s a report for another thread.
Top 8: MUD
** Game 1: I again name something beside monolith (never ever doing that again) with revoker. Mana denial gets up, I flicker a Ancient tomb at one point to kill his City of Traitors, he runs out of gas with double monolith, key and lightining greaves on board. Mangara exiles his only threat (Wurmcoil)
-4 Mom -1 Vial + 3 E tutor + 1 Stony Silence + 1 Serenity
** Game 2: I keep opener with stoney silence. He drops t1 Chalice, I get stony into play, blanking his board. Wasteland keeps him stuck on a single ancient tomb. I flickerwisp chalice, he replays a second one at 1, I flickerwisp the second one, and swords his only creature. He scoops.
We agree to split top 4, since it was 2 am at this point. I trade my store credit in for a Leyline of Sanctity and Powdered Keg. I trade for a Helm of Obedience (will be relevant in a minute) and an Aura of Silence.
All and all I am very happy with how my list is running, its just a matter of adjusting the e-tutor package. I find the e-tutor silver bullet plan very strong in a fair/blue deck meta… but am aware that if I use this side board plan the meta will adapt to it. One of the RUG delver players has added Sulfuric and Engineered Plague now. If the meta adapts to more combo decks *might* abandon the e-tutor package for a mindtrap all purpose board.
Next week I plan on trying something very radical with the sideboard:
****
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor
2 Aven Mindcensor
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Batterskull
4 Rishadan Port
4 Karakas
2 Horizon Canopy
9 Plains
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Rest in Peace
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Stony Silence
1 Crawlspace
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Helm of Obedience
+1 Crawlspace. I actually think this is a better hate card for dredge than graveyard hate, assuming the player has enchantment hate or knows how to blind play therapy. 2 ichorids a turn is beyond easy for this deck to handle. I also think this does a good job of replacing Cataclysm in several of our matchups for the E-Tutor board.
+1 Helm of Obedience. I mulled playing a transformational board last night but couldn’t get them helm until after. I am going to test this play as a trick play for stoneblade, miricles and MUD.
**
Now that I know what Mono Blue Omnishow runs, if it is becoming a problem, I want to suggest the following hate card in a E-tutor package, that I run as part of my stax package in my edh Arcum stax deck: Uba Mask. This with a canonist or Thalia in play blanks Enter the infinite if you play in response to Show and Tell. Who cares if they draw their deck if they cant do anything with it and it gets exiled at EoT. As long as you pro blue your hate card (thalia/canonist) with mom in response to show and tell, they wont be able to avoid exiling their library with this in play. But I would want to test this to know for sure, as I just don’t know the match up that well.
My mistake.
I've tested against it a few times. It is a rough match up for us, but thankfully the deck is very inconsistent. While mana denial is the best way to win game one, Thalia does not affect your hive mind spell copy so it offers no protection against the upkeep loss trigger. Mindcensor shuts off intuition and fetches. The deck, like most non tes/belcher combo decks, has a very fragile mana base. Revoker should name Monolith
Postboard, the match up improves with a standard board as Cannonist buys an extra turn to mangara or o-ring hive off the table.
The best answers against the deck are a Sundial of the infinite in an e-tutor package; Angel's Grace or a Judge's Familar to counter your free copy of whatever pact. These cards offer the best protection we can get from the upkeep loss trigger.
Do not side out flickerwisp or stp in this MU, as exile effects take care of beats from hard-casted Titan tokens. Once mind is disabled the rest of match up becomes standard show and tell matchup with less bombs and less counter magic. Our weakest cards are crusader/avenger and mom in this match. Don't discount your mana denial and save wasteland for volcanic island; I've won two games testing against Hive Mind hard casting pact of titan followed by me wasting their only red source.
And then Wizards goes and changes a major factor in our deck and sideboard construction.
Back to the drawing board! No more dead Karakas draws! Thalia/Mangara are playable in the mirror vs. Maverick! The sky is falling if you read any other thread!