That's definitely an interesting take. I've always been opposed to the "all-in" plan, though. I don't think of the version that only runs 2 Doubling Seasons as a kooky superfriends deck (though it sort of is), it's a deck that attacks at multiple angles. I mean, how do you win against enchantment destruction? What if you don't draw Doubling Season? Nahiri is good on her own, but Jace often isn't, and Tamiyo is only really good if you're playing creatures of your own that can attack.
The Madcap package is certainly powerful, but what does it specifically do for this deck? I guess it just buys you time while you assemble the combo, since most removal in modern is based on toughness or CMC. My main, worry, though is that you've tripled the number of cards you don't ever want to draw by adding in the Emperions alongside Emrakul. That's a lot of dead draws. I guess Nahiri helps, but still.
Yep, great points. My older versions of this had a lot more token generation and they were fun too, but often durdled too much and always died to flyers/burn, so I designed this mostly as a Thought Experiment, basically: "How to maximize my chances of
1 - Having 5 mana by Turn 3
2 - Having Doubling Season on T3
3 - Having a game-ending PW on T4
After all that, with remaining slots (4), how to maximize the chance to stay alive that long, or if I'm missing a piece. "
This is why we used to run maindeck Blood Moon, but preboarded hate cards don't work against a lot of decks. I also tried counters, removal, Obstinate Baloth, Blessed Alliance, and a host of different Planeswalkers. The best ones for this purpose in my opinion are Gideon Jura and Ajani Vengeant, but their Ultimates don't win the game.
Re: not finding Doubling Season, that's why I run 4 and that's also the reason Madcap/Emperion package. Idyllic Tutor is too slow because it means at best a T4 DS and T5 win. But since Empyrion pretty much only dies to Path or Artifact destruction, it's pretty good for helping me last til I find DS. Also it's beautiful when they bring in the Paths and Artifact hate and I've taken out that package for 3 Blood Moons and 2 Worships... and they have dead cards.
Regarding enchantment hate, I used to run a few Negates, but then realized that I am bringing in several enchantments in every match, and they can't destroy them all, so I took a more proactive approach. It's not ideal but I wanted more to board in against Burn so I replaced them with Kor Firewalkers.
Anyway, the fun about a brew like this is we can keep changing, and we can play the cards we like the best!
She is not bad but far from the better 6-mana walkers like Elspeth or Chandra in terms of board control,
the Ult' is good but not better than the combo-walkers (Jace, Nahiri, Samut).
Here's my take on this deck:
I don't want to be doing anything on Turn 2 other than playing my second mana dork or Utopia Sprawl, so that I can play Doubling Season on T3. In fact, I don't want to do anything on T3 other than play Doubling Season, so I play 4 copies. I don't want any planeswalkers that don't either win the game on T4 or come down on T3 to help me survive and find the Doubling Season. For me, this deck is not about "playing a kooky fun superfriends deck", it's basically a sideways combo deck that cheats out Emrakul or the opponent's best cards... or both.
Speaking of helping me survive, the cards that make T3 Doubling Season possible also make T2/T3 Madcap Experiment into Platinum Empyrion very easy. I almost always side out the package once I know which hate to bring in.
My version is very streamlined and I find it quite fun:
Alright - last topic for conversation: 3 Aether Vials!?! I have already done the math, with 4 in the deck the odds of drawing one in your starting 7 cards is 39.95%. With 3 in the deck the odds are 31.54%. I know that Vial is best on turn one. Is this just pure insanity, or worth a discussion?
Now I've borrowed two Canopies and I want to go down to 19 lands, and I'm having a hard time deciding what to cut. I almost think it should be the basic Plains. There's downsides there too. What do you think?
I've been playing Collins Mullen's version for about 15 matches, and what I've found is that I need some card draw, and that I flood a lot with 20 lands. I obviously need more reps but wondered if any of you have had the same experience.
I'm thinking I'll main 2x Dark Confidants, taking out one land and moving one Meddling Mage to the board. Another option is Duskwatch Recruiter, this might be better because it only draws creatures, not late-game Vials or lands. His flip-side is beefier and has synergy with Mayor of Avabruck.
Hello! What changes would you make to this to make it viable for 1v1 online? I love this deck idea but I can't play it against my local people, they would complain a lot and give me the "social contract" lectures...
In 1v1 I think this could have trouble assembling the lock fast enough. How many turns does it generally take you?
HI Fincown, can you be more specific about how you lose to Jund? I find that to be one of the easier matchups. If they are killing you with IoK and Thoughtseize, the best sideboard card is Leyline of Sanctity. It also stops 2 of Liliana's modes.
In general, their strategy is to 1-for-1 us, but all of our cards have additional value attached. Flickering our creatures gets even more value. If you're running Restoration Angel, use it to save a creature from removal, rather than just running it out EOT. Don't waste removal on every creature; save it for Scavenging Ooze. Bring in the 4th Wrath, they often overcommit to the board. Last, Ghost Quarter is really good against Raging Ravine. Again, don't crack it until they have spent mana activating the manland. Sometimes just having a GQ on board is good enough to slow them down until we get the grind going.
I know you're not on Green, but if you were, I would say that Saffi Eriksdotter is one of the best cards. It works wonders with either a Sun Titan or a Renegade Rallier to negate their removal. It's so mean.
The deck is certainly not dead. The Facebook page is still very active.
The guy who hyped the deck a lot and grew a big community around it (Fran, aka Neo7hinker) is taking a break to focus on UW control. He did not say the deck is bad. You should read the article for yourself.
Frankly, the community has developed and changed the deck a lot since it came out. The manabase got better, Liliana OTV and other cards have been experimented with, and tons of sideboard plans have been tried.
Recently, Dylan Brown got a Top 32 at GP Brisbane with it. I personally am not a great player and I have played it undefeated at local shop tournaments.
However, like any Modern deck, you need to know your meta. This one has really bad matchups against Tron and Scapeshift, and slightly bad against Eldrazi and Burn. I know one store that is full of those decks and I lost a lot. However, it also has A LOT of good matchups. I almost thought the deck was bad until I took it to some different stores. I plan to play a few GPTs this season to try to get Byes for Vegas, and this deck is currently the highest contender.
I'm trying to understand how the landfill deck wins the game... a handful of Magus and GDD doesn't seem like enough but clearly you've been successful. Will you talk a bit about how the game should play out?
Also, if you're destroying lands enough, do you not need Blood Moon?
Last, without fetchlands, how often do you end up Booming your own land? Is it ok to do that?
I'm really liking the Delver lists with 4 Geist of Saint Traft! I wish we could squeeze some Young Pyromancers in there, but I guess you can't have everything...
First Question: this looks like it would really own Tron and Scapeshift, is that true?
Second question: what are the bad matchups?
Third question: I count 27 spells, is that enough to flip Delver often? I haven't played Delver in about a year, but when I did I seem to remember the minimum being 27.
Fourth question: does Fatal Push matter?
Last question: have you tried 3 Snapcasters? I know it sounds weird but that is the perfect number in my Esper deck.
Yep, great points. My older versions of this had a lot more token generation and they were fun too, but often durdled too much and always died to flyers/burn, so I designed this mostly as a Thought Experiment, basically: "How to maximize my chances of
1 - Having 5 mana by Turn 3
2 - Having Doubling Season on T3
3 - Having a game-ending PW on T4
After all that, with remaining slots (4), how to maximize the chance to stay alive that long, or if I'm missing a piece. "
This is why we used to run maindeck Blood Moon, but preboarded hate cards don't work against a lot of decks. I also tried counters, removal, Obstinate Baloth, Blessed Alliance, and a host of different Planeswalkers. The best ones for this purpose in my opinion are Gideon Jura and Ajani Vengeant, but their Ultimates don't win the game.
Re: not finding Doubling Season, that's why I run 4 and that's also the reason Madcap/Emperion package. Idyllic Tutor is too slow because it means at best a T4 DS and T5 win. But since Empyrion pretty much only dies to Path or Artifact destruction, it's pretty good for helping me last til I find DS. Also it's beautiful when they bring in the Paths and Artifact hate and I've taken out that package for 3 Blood Moons and 2 Worships... and they have dead cards.
Regarding enchantment hate, I used to run a few Negates, but then realized that I am bringing in several enchantments in every match, and they can't destroy them all, so I took a more proactive approach. It's not ideal but I wanted more to board in against Burn so I replaced them with Kor Firewalkers.
Anyway, the fun about a brew like this is we can keep changing, and we can play the cards we like the best!
Here's my take on this deck:
I don't want to be doing anything on Turn 2 other than playing my second mana dork or Utopia Sprawl, so that I can play Doubling Season on T3. In fact, I don't want to do anything on T3 other than play Doubling Season, so I play 4 copies. I don't want any planeswalkers that don't either win the game on T4 or come down on T3 to help me survive and find the Doubling Season. For me, this deck is not about "playing a kooky fun superfriends deck", it's basically a sideways combo deck that cheats out Emrakul or the opponent's best cards... or both.
Speaking of helping me survive, the cards that make T3 Doubling Season possible also make T2/T3 Madcap Experiment into Platinum Empyrion very easy. I almost always side out the package once I know which hate to bring in.
My version is very streamlined and I find it quite fun:
5 Forest
2 Breeding Pool
2 Temple Garden
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Stomping Ground
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
Mana Makers and Fixers (20)
4 Arbor Elf
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Oath of Nissa
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Doubling Season
Planeswalkers that win with DS (11)
4 Jace, Architect of Thought
4 Nahiri, the Harbinger
3 Tamiyo, Field Researcher
Horrific monster to fetch (1)
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Cards that keep me alive (5)
3 Madcap Experiment
2 Platinum Emperion
3 Blood Moon
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Worship
2 Kor Firewalker
Clarification: I had already added a basic Forest; was talking about removing the Plains and keeping the Forest.
Has anyone tried playing one basic forest? I put one in because
Now I've borrowed two Canopies and I want to go down to 19 lands, and I'm having a hard time deciding what to cut. I almost think it should be the basic Plains. There's downsides there too. What do you think?
I'm thinking I'll main 2x Dark Confidants, taking out one land and moving one Meddling Mage to the board. Another option is Duskwatch Recruiter, this might be better because it only draws creatures, not late-game Vials or lands. His flip-side is beefier and has synergy with Mayor of Avabruck.
What do you guys think?
In 1v1 I think this could have trouble assembling the lock fast enough. How many turns does it generally take you?
Thanks!
tl;dr: starting with Amonkhet release, the CMC of boom/bust will be 8 when it's in your graveyard (or anywhere else other than the stack).
It sucks for us, but actually makes the rules of the game a little less wonky.
3 Flickerwisp
2 Sun Titan
1 Primeval Titan
2 Renegade Rallier
4 Lone Missionary
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Selfless Spirit
2 Court Hussar
4 Wall of Omens
1 Saffi Eriksdotter
13 Spells
4 Path to Exile
2 Ojutai's Command
1 Beast Within
3 Supreme Verdict
2 Detention Sphere
1 Evolutionary Leap
2 Emeria, the Sky Ruin
2 Ghost Quarter
4 Windswept Heath
3 Flooded Strand
2 Temple Garden
2 Hallowed Fountain
6 Plains
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Saffi Eriksdotter
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Spreading Seas
2 Negate
1 Wrath of God
I haven't tried Hussar yet, but since I have blue I'm gonna run a few. Also think I'll give Leap a try - sweet idea.
One question - Why don't you run Saffi Eriksdotter? Have you tried her?
In general, their strategy is to 1-for-1 us, but all of our cards have additional value attached. Flickering our creatures gets even more value. If you're running Restoration Angel, use it to save a creature from removal, rather than just running it out EOT. Don't waste removal on every creature; save it for Scavenging Ooze. Bring in the 4th Wrath, they often overcommit to the board. Last, Ghost Quarter is really good against Raging Ravine. Again, don't crack it until they have spent mana activating the manland. Sometimes just having a GQ on board is good enough to slow them down until we get the grind going.
I know you're not on Green, but if you were, I would say that Saffi Eriksdotter is one of the best cards. It works wonders with either a Sun Titan or a Renegade Rallier to negate their removal. It's so mean.
The guy who hyped the deck a lot and grew a big community around it (Fran, aka Neo7hinker) is taking a break to focus on UW control. He did not say the deck is bad. You should read the article for yourself.
Frankly, the community has developed and changed the deck a lot since it came out. The manabase got better, Liliana OTV and other cards have been experimented with, and tons of sideboard plans have been tried.
Recently, Dylan Brown got a Top 32 at GP Brisbane with it. I personally am not a great player and I have played it undefeated at local shop tournaments.
However, like any Modern deck, you need to know your meta. This one has really bad matchups against Tron and Scapeshift, and slightly bad against Eldrazi and Burn. I know one store that is full of those decks and I lost a lot. However, it also has A LOT of good matchups. I almost thought the deck was bad until I took it to some different stores. I plan to play a few GPTs this season to try to get Byes for Vegas, and this deck is currently the highest contender.
I'm trying to understand how the landfill deck wins the game... a handful of Magus and GDD doesn't seem like enough but clearly you've been successful. Will you talk a bit about how the game should play out?
Also, if you're destroying lands enough, do you not need Blood Moon?
Last, without fetchlands, how often do you end up Booming your own land? Is it ok to do that?
First Question: this looks like it would really own Tron and Scapeshift, is that true?
Second question: what are the bad matchups?
Third question: I count 27 spells, is that enough to flip Delver often? I haven't played Delver in about a year, but when I did I seem to remember the minimum being 27.
Fourth question: does Fatal Push matter?
Last question: have you tried 3 Snapcasters? I know it sounds weird but that is the perfect number in my Esper deck.