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  • posted a message on Liliana at the conclusion of Dominaria
    Quote from Onering »
    Quote from Qanglaagix »
    @mapccu: You mean Jace = Loki. Yeah that may seem weird but Jace is a trickster who employs mind magic and illusions. He even fooled Nicol Bolas in RIX when Nicol Bolas viewed Vraska's memories like her mission went without a hitch thanks to Jace's mind magic that he learned from self-study and from Alhammarret. He regularly uses illusions to appear differently to others and to hide from threats. Jace even lies to others when he deems it necessary. Jace even has manipulated people in the past with his mind magic and/or illusions.

    The thing about Liliana Vess is she lies and manipulates and uses her sexuality and looks as leverage. She is more like Morgan la Fey if anything.


    You seem to be confused by the comparison. Jace has Lokis powers, but his character is wildly different. Liliana is a similar character to Loki. Her behavior, her attitude, her elitism, the chip on her shoulder, hell even a lot of her story beats, but especially that she's a bad person that does bad things who is nonetheless entertaining, charming, and even somewhat sympathetic. She even undermines herself the same way Loki does. Comparing based on powers isn't very helpful, you end up comparing say, Black Widow and Batman, because they are both ninjas that use high tech ***** and spy/detective skills, but both are very different characters, or Batman and Ironman because they are both rich guys that use tech, or Ironmam and Cyborg because Cyborgs enhancements and Iron Mans suit have a lot of the same powers. They are all really different characters despite similar powers. The Thing and The HULK are both big ass super strong mutants (not Mutants) the punch things and can brush off a hit from a train, but again wildly different characters.
    Story beats?

    Like where is the part where giants wanted to marry Chandra so Liliana dresses Gideon in drag to look like Chandra but as a ruse to recover his weapon which the giants have?

    Or where is the epic roast from Liliana in the feast hall and then Gideon shows up and chases out Liliana, she turns into a fish, Jace and Gideon find her very easily?

    Or where is the one where the gatewatch didn't want to pay the giants for construction, so Liliana sneakily decided turn herself into a horse, get chased by a male horse, destroy the giants works, then later on gave birth to a 8-legged horse?

    Where is the part where Liliana killed Josu with a mistletoe arrow that was shot by Nissa? Along with, where is the part where Josu could come back to life if everyone felt sad and wanted him back, but Liliana didn't and so Josu never came back?

    Where is the part where Liliana gave birth to a serpent that could wrap around an entire plane?

    What of the one where Liliana gave birth to a daughter who would control the underworld?

    How about of how Liliana tricked two dwarves who were master craftsman into making Gideon's weapon in the first place but also had transformed into a fly and kept biting them?

    How about the one where Liliana tried to beat a fire giant in an eating contest?

    You saying that these are the story beats of Loki are comparable to Liliana?
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • posted a message on State of Brawl: Bans, format health, and more!
    Seeing the changes, this is very good. Thumbs Up
    Posted in: Brawl
  • posted a message on Dominaria General Discussion
    The only thing I found awkward about Jace was why he wanted them to rush and leave right then. Or why he departed so rapidly without explaining anything. Urgency and stoicism felt natural here, but he was in and out without any clarification that I was confused. And he couldn't know Lilliana did not read her contract, so his repulsion is justified as well. I do think it foreshadows In Bolas's Clutches. It's too bad Jace is gone before warning her about it. At least Gideon's instincts are on point, even without telepathy himself.


    It almost feels like Bolas will show up for the "In Bolas's Clutches" fresh off of crushing the Ajani & Jace Team offscreen and then will fill in his victory later. Cause yeah Jace and Ajani both seem to be acting like the final fight against Bolas is right away.
    Because Nicol Bolas plans on invading Ravnica with his undead army (Invocation ver) through the use of a planar bridge. He will then employ the immortal sun to trap all planeswalkers on Ravnica so they can't just escape. Nicol Bolas is literally building a murder box for the heroes.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • posted a message on Dominaria General Discussion
    The only thing I found awkward about Jace was why he wanted them to rush and leave right then. Or why he departed so rapidly without explaining anything. Urgency and stoicism felt natural here, but he was in and out without any clarification that I was confused. And he couldn't know Lilliana did not read her contract, so his repulsion is justified as well. I do think it foreshadows In Bolas's Clutches. It's too bad Jace is gone before warning her about it. At least Gideon's instincts are on point, even without telepathy himself.
    4/6 for the RIX story.

    "Where will you go after it's gone?" she asked, nodding up at the Immortal Sun.

    Jace stood. "I need to meet my friends on Dominaria."

    "To recruit them?"

    "Mostly to apologize for being absurdly late."

    "At least you have a good reason." Vraska shrugged.

    "I won't stay on Dominaria after I find them, though." He went strangely quiet. A little crease was cut between his eyebrows. "The Guildpact belongs on Ravnica. I don't want to be like Azor."

    Vraska understood why he would have that fear, holding the title he did. She nodded, and her mind wandered as Jace went quiet again.
    With the follow-up being 6/6 for RIX story.
    He couldn't delay any longer.

    Planeswalking was a tricky business; it was imperfect, and destinations could usually only be reached if one had been there before. More often than not, traveling to a new plane was achieved by focusing on a familiar Planeswalker. Jace's first instinct was to reach his friends on Dominaria by focusing on Liliana, but the thought of her gave him pause. What he felt for her now wasn't anything resembling affection. It felt more sickly than that. An anemic, old, anxious tether between them that felt more like dread than tenderness. The entire notion of her was unsettling him, so he focused on the others instead.

    The bright, brilliant goodness of Gideon shone across the Blind Eternities like a searchlight, so Jace decided to aim for that.
    Why not explain to the group even with telepathy? Clear as day really. Jace remembered about the event with Nicol Bolas and one of Azor's advisors. Which the elf, under duress and pain by Nicol Bolas, gave away information Bolas wanted. Now mix that with the fact you have an abusive ex you really hate and can't trust and don't want to risk the lives of people you actually care about. Yes Jace trusts Chandra and Gideon more than he does Liliana. Let that sink in.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • posted a message on Liliana at the conclusion of Dominaria
    @mapccu: You mean Jace = Loki. Yeah that may seem weird but Jace is a trickster who employs mind magic and illusions. He even fooled Nicol Bolas in RIX when Nicol Bolas viewed Vraska's memories like her mission went without a hitch thanks to Jace's mind magic that he learned from self-study and from Alhammarret. He regularly uses illusions to appear differently to others and to hide from threats. Jace even lies to others when he deems it necessary. Jace even has manipulated people in the past with his mind magic and/or illusions.

    The thing about Liliana Vess is she lies and manipulates and uses her sexuality and looks as leverage. She is more like Morgan la Fey if anything.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • posted a message on Liliana at the conclusion of Dominaria
    @AutumnTwilight: Many have had awful things happen to them in their lives. Some of which in their mistakes committed horrible acts. Nobody is arguing they haven't or weren't. The difference is what they choose to do afterwards.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • posted a message on Liliana at the conclusion of Dominaria
    Quote from nanoc »
    I don’t feel bad either. It seems like they’ve forgotten all that other crappy stuff she’s done, like what you mentioned. If anything it just makes Jace and the rest of them, but especially Jace, into hypocrites because they say they don’t trust her but are still using her to do whatever it is they wanna do. No one really cares about helping her end her contracts (except Jace, but that’s changed) but they still help her do all this without knowing much about the veil and what it could do to her, only that it could help them kill Bolas. She’s getting the same treatment she gives and that’s fair lol


    Yeah Jace looks bad...he was fine with Lili when she was evil and manipulative and he wanted to sleep with her but now that he is got a new gf suddenly he is concerned about Lili manipulating the group?
    Because Jace was previously in an abusive relationship with Liliana. He is warning Chandra and Gideon that she shouldn't be trusted, she manipulates and abuses people to get what she wants.

    Did you read the same RIX? Did you read same stuff before IXA? Jace literally had the symptoms of someone in an abusive relationship until Ixalan.

    Withdrawn or Unusually Quiet (A person who was once chatty and gregarious who is suddenly quiet, reserved and distant, could be an abuse victim.)
    Describes abuser as "moody" or having a "bad temper."
    Lack of Sleep
    Low Self-Esteem
    Extremely apologetic or meek
    Agitation, anxiety, or constant apprehension
    Symptoms of Depression.

    The illusion shattered, then vanished, leaving the rush of the waterfall and the shimmering gold of Orazca in its wake.

    Vraska's perception was wavering, and everything had an artificial glint to it, as if the accidental illusions were smearing across reality even now. Her hands were still gripping the mud of the riverbank, physically clinging to what was real.

    "Jace, you're safe and all right, but I need you to make an illusion so our crew can find us."

    But Jace was still unreachable. His eyes remained bright with magic, and strength had not returned to his limbs. Vraska could see his chest rise and fall with each shuddering breath. He inhaled sharply as another wave of memory washed over him, then went utterly still in response to whatever he was seeing, his lips parted in shock.

    The light above them dimmed as an illusion of this new memory coalesced into being, bringing with it the weight of dusk and the scent of too-ripe apples.

    Vraska found herself in a small bedroom with bare walls and two chairs in front of the fire. She wasn't sure what plane she was on, but that was irrelevant. This room was a world unto itself, the furniture its continents, the rug its ocean, as if nothing outside of the space mattered. Dust clung to the windowsill, and a half-empty basket of fruit sat by the door, boasting a collection of bruised apples. Jace was there, naturally, and his face was lit by the cozy-looking fire. The texture of the memory was velvety and welcoming, but Vraska saw no joy in the scene.

    Jace was seated in front of the fire, across from a woman in violet.

    Everything about the woman's body language exuded boredom, but Jace was leaning forward, rapt with interest. Vraska felt deeply uncomfortable. This was an intimate moment. She was not meant to see this.

    "I never want to play chess again," Jace said, rubbing his temples.

    The woman regarded him with intense disinterest. "Chess is tedious," she said in dull agreement.

    Jace's cloak was hanging on the coatrack. His shoes were drying by the fire. Vraska knew she shouldn't watch, yet she knew she couldn't leave.

    Jace's left index finger was tapping a rapid, unconscious rhythm on his thigh. His voice was tentative. Uncertain. "What you said back on Innistrad, about when I die . . ."

    The woman's long hair tumbled over half of her face. Her lipstick was end-of-the-day faded and her eyes betrayed an indifference that Vraska prayed this version of Jace would notice.

    "You remember that conversation?"

    "Hard to forget a conversation like that," said Jace. "You don't meddle in sentiment unless you mean it. So . . . did you mean it?"

    "What?"

    He paused, cautious. "Will you be sad when I die?"

    Jace was looking at the woman in violet attentively. Expectantly. Vraska's stomach lurched at the strangeness of the question. He had asked it as if he was unsure, even though the context of the moment around him implied that he and this woman were more than acquaintances.

    The woman in violet looked Jace in the eye, lids heavy, knees resting to the side. "I expect so," she said. A half sentiment. A bone for the dog. "What we had, whatever you want to call it . . . it's worth that much, at least."

    Vraska's mouth hung open. That's it? The woman's cruel dismissal of an honest plea for affection told Vraska everything she needed to know about her. Vraska's tendrils knotted in discomfort, but she couldn't look away from this poor man, this woman, this dreadful little room.

    "I think that's the nicest thing you've ever said to me," Jace replied.

    The woman in violet laughed. As though it were a joke. As though he hadn't said it with a desperate yearning for her approval written plainly on his face.

    Vraska felt like a home invader. This domestic play of profound imbalance wasn't meant for her to see.

    "You should go back. The others will notice if you don't come home tonight," said the woman.

    Jace shrugged. "It's just past sunset. I've got time."

    "Oh." The woman looked Jace over, visibly weighing some decision in her mind.

    She stood up suddenly and crossed the room toward her vanity. Vraska sidestepped her and watched as the woman opened a drawer. She pulled out a bottle and two glasses and returned to the fireside, deftly uncorking the decanter with one swift motion. "What should we drink to?" she asked.

    You don't pour a glass for someone you want to leave, Vraska thought as her stomach dropped.

    Jace was smiling. "A toast, to Emrakul," he quipped, "for doing our job for us."

    The woman lifted her half-filled glass and clinked it against his.

    They both drank deeply.

    She refilled their glasses to the brim.

    They drank in silence.

    The fire crackled in the hearth.

    Vraska couldn't take her eyes off the other woman. For someone who hated chess, she sure looked at Jace with the icy scrutiny of a grand master.

    At last the woman in violet decided her play, disguising her probe with a lethargic sip from her glass. "Have you seen anyone since?" Vraska could hear the weight implied in that "since." The designation, the shared knowledge. "You got along well with the moonfolk woman," she added deliberately. Pawn to E4.

    The game behind the statement made Vraska want to claw her way out of the room.

    Jace swirled the liquid in his glass and his demeanor suddenly shifted. He glanced up at the woman in violet. "She's married."

    "Is she?" the woman said, superficially pleased at the revelation. She knew full well how aggressive her opening move had been. Knight to F3.

    Jace's nodded. "She was a scholar. Morally ambiguous. Married, and not what I'm looking for even if she weren't."

    The woman in violet was watching him closely.

    "And what are you looking for?" she asked.

    She's manipulating you into staying, Vraska wanted to scream. You're smart. She doesn't reciprocate your feelings. Don't fall for this.

    Jace leaned back in his chair and stared at her over his glass. With great trepidation and an uncharacteristic absence of logic, his answer fluttered out. "This isn't so bad."

    Vraska's heart ached. This was so bad, but he was too far lost to pull back the curtain of affection and see the bored cruelty of her intentions.

    "This is just two old acquaintances, relaxing after a victory," the woman responded. "Reminiscing about the good old days."

    Jace absently tugged on his right glove. "Those days weren't all good."

    "We weren't, either," the woman said in a hushed, dangerous tone.

    In a moment, the game transformed, chessboard tossed on the floor, metaphorical dice on the table. She was a gambler, floating an offer for one more round, one more bet, just for the hell of it, c'mon, fellas, what's the worst that could happen.

    "We're not together," the woman in violet added. "But you don't have to leave just yet."

    Jace looked up from his drink and met her gaze with a hopeful look.

    The woman topped up both of their glasses and lifted hers. "To new good old days," she said.

    To Vraska's relief, the illusion dissolved, and the riverbed returned.

    Vraska felt nauseated. Was there anyone in Jace's life who hadn't tried to take advantage of him or his talents?
    In that moment, Jace noticed a change within himself. The Jace of Zendikar and Innistrad and Ravnica had a nervous energy about him, persistently bored and disastrously introspective, constantly aware of the chasm of absent memory that was always on his mind's horizon. The Jace without a past was present, alert, comfortable no matter the circumstance and ready to face whatever might come his way. He remembered what it was like to be both, but recognized how much more natural it was to be the latter. In the span of a moment, Jace was surprised at himself, and then realized his earnestness of late, of Ixalan, was not manufactured, nor was his mindfulness something he could only access in a state of amnesia. That was who he had always been. He had just forgotten.

    (A memory: his mother, arriving home from a day at work, dressed in her healer's smock, looking out the open window at a storm in the distance with a cup of coffee nestled in her hands and a little smile on her tired face. He heard fat raindrops rattling the tin roof. The air smelled like wet concrete and home.)

    Jace smiled. He liked being able to remember his mother.

    I hope she is alive, he thought to himself.

    "It's gone," Vraska said, breaking the spell.

    Jace remembered where he was and released his hold on his illusion.

    "You cast that illusion more quickly than I've seen you do it before," she said.

    Jace nodded with a tight smile. "I can remember the skills my mentor taught me, now. I learned more from him by the time I was a teenager than I ever did teaching myself."

    "So teenage you had more refined technique than adult you?"

    "And now current me has the knowledge of both. It's . . . weird."

    Vraska looked him in the eye. "You're incredible. You know that, right?"

    Jace returned her smile and felt his cheeks warming. "I do my best."

    "Well, your best is incredible," Vraska said, turning toward the central tower and approaching a large gate on what appeared to be its back side.

    Liliana never told Jace he was incredible.

    Liliana would have scoffed. She would have made a dismissive joke, rolled her eyes, and called him a show-off. She would not bother to talk to him for days. She would consume the body of a demon with a crocodile's jaws and laugh over the sound of its flesh tearing off. She would do all sorts of things, but she would never call him incredible.
    Planeswalking was a tricky business; it was imperfect, and destinations could usually only be reached if one had been there before. More often than not, traveling to a new plane was achieved by focusing on a familiar Planeswalker. Jace's first instinct was to reach his friends on Dominaria by focusing on Liliana, but the thought of her gave him pause. What he felt for her now wasn't anything resembling affection. It felt more sickly than that. An anemic, old, anxious tether between them that felt more like dread than tenderness. The entire notion of her was unsettling him, so he focused on the others instead.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • posted a message on Dominaria General Discussion
    Quote from Etherium Sage »
    Quote from Qanglaagix »
    Jace being reserved seems reasonable to me, especially with Liliana's presence there.
    Jace's first instinct was to reach his friends on Dominaria by focusing on Liliana, but the thought of her gave him pause. What he felt for her now wasn't anything resembling affection. It felt more sickly than that. An anemic, old, anxious tether between them that felt more like dread than tenderness. The entire notion of her was unsettling him, so he focused on the others instead.
    Jace shook his head, frustrated. "You don't understand. You can't trust her."
    Also the Multani + Chandra scene was just the best.


    You don't seem to understand what I'm getting at. Jace's attitude being this way eventually, after taking in Liliana's presence in the room and explaining his situation to them, isn't an issue. It's the fact that his demeanour is like this at the very beginning of his interaction with Gideon that makes no sense. He doesn't sound like someone who's glad to see Gids or Chandra after months of being stuck on another plane, which is extremely different from his behaviour in the RIX story, which you didn't bother to account for in your quote for some reason.
    I did take account for it. But I suppose you wanted me to have more fire about the matter of the dissonance? I don't. You know what is the most likely thing that happened? It probably resembled the RIX version more, but at some during the writing, Martha Wells went back and changed it. Executive meddling? Her own choice? Remnants from an older version of the story? Who knows. Like Kahuna stated, there is that whole thing with Ajani, Nissa and Jace. Shade is being thrown on Liliana's goal and painting it as the bad idea for the third time so far.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • posted a message on Dominaria General Discussion
    Jace being reserved seems reasonable to me, especially with Liliana's presence there.
    Jace's first instinct was to reach his friends on Dominaria by focusing on Liliana, but the thought of her gave him pause. What he felt for her now wasn't anything resembling affection. It felt more sickly than that. An anemic, old, anxious tether between them that felt more like dread than tenderness. The entire notion of her was unsettling him, so he focused on the others instead.
    Jace shook his head, frustrated. "You don't understand. You can't trust her."
    Also the Multani + Chandra scene was just the best.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • posted a message on [M19] Commons leaked in Dominaria Packaged Product
    Quote from tuxedospoon »
    Quote from Dontrike »

    Core sets are definitely needed. The last few years of almost zero reprints and basic cards made the game worse in the end. They are bringing them back because we need a place for steady reprints for Standard. You can't reprint many cards in most Standard sets and a Core set is where that can happen.

    Last time they revamped core sets, we've got Doom Blade, Duress, Essence Scatter, Lightning Bolt, Llanowar Elves, Ponder, Rampant Growth, Soul Warden and some other stuff, all at common. Apart from the goblin, these commons are nowhere near as interesting.

    They tried all sorts of gimmics (slivers, cards designed by non-magic people, flipwalkers) to sell core sets before discontinuing them anyway because their vision of what a core set should be was nigh unmarketable. And now, judging by the leaked cards, they bring core sets back with little to no change to that vision. I have no idea why they try to push the idea of a simplified set made with new payers in mind when such sets have been underwhelming for decades. One can make a case that new players are scared by complexity, but opening a booster pack with ten unplayable vanilla-ish commons is an all alround feel-bad. I mean, yes we need reprints and safety valves, but Cancel is no safety valve and the kind of reprint nobody wants.
    All of this? Exactly! If the expected cards are missing, boy is WotC in for a rude awakening on why M19 may not do well. As its not just standard we are talking about, its also the modern, and legacy and commander and whatever other formats as they are used in other formats than standard.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Battlebond Dual Lands ETB Untapped in 2HG/EDH
    The fact those are so awesome and affordable, wait nvm, they are rares. From a distance they looked like commons since I could barely see the gold.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on [M19] Commons leaked in Dominaria Packaged Product
    Dwarf Hype!
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Brawl feels like a solved format
    One of the things they are going to need is a separate ban list, as it doesn't make sense to ban Baral in standard if they want to ban him in brawl.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Kelly Digges no longer working for Wizards
    Sad to see him go. Hopefully his work goes well. As for if its ominous or not, maybe its not best to dig up something even if that something may not have been buried at all.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
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