Azami is an interesting case. I've found the key driver for success in my pretty competitive meta is to lower the CMC of each card as much as you can.
Ideally the plays for Azami should look something like
Turn 1 - Wizard
Turn 2 - Mana rock
Turn 3 - Wizard
Turn 4 - Azami, draw three cards
I'm also playing a bunch of counterspells, so the deck plays like a tempo deck. Get ahead on the board and then stay ahead by countering relevant threats.
If I tap out I'm open to a sweeper, or spot removal.
It also helps that I am a combo version. I'm actively digging for combo pieces so the plan is to be as proactive as possible. Rather than using cards like Karn to answer threats, I'm presenting the threats and forcing others to answer my plays.
Also all or the cards in the deck synergise. Evacuation from your list definitely does not synergise. You're absolutely a deck that needs specifically creature board presence to execute your primary game plan. Tamiyo will have spots of being not very good. Great if you're already winning, but feels like win more.
Turnabout is again, win more. Definitely versatile, but unless you're full on High Tide Combo I've found yet another wizard worked better for me in the slot. Venser, Shaper Savant
Interesting analysis and that is exactly what I feel about. I probably will remove Turnabout, Karn, Evacuation and probably Tamiyo. What do you think about Sigil Tracer and High Tide? I do feel High Tide is good card in Azami to doubling mana = faster tempo.
~Karn: High Cost, but works as removal (which as Mono Blue deck doesnt have) and Win Con: 2 extra turn with Karn on board is a win. The 7 cost is slow though
~Tamiyo: 5 Mana cost, works as draw more cards in late game. With several tapped Wizards on board, I can draw more and more cards. Problem is sometimes I have no problem with card draws with Azami on board.
~Evacuation: 5 Mana cost, works sometimes to slow the board. Problem is it also hits my creatures and slow me down. I already run cyclonic rift, cryptic command and turnabout for defensive spells, do I still need Evacuation? But it is very useful against token decks
~Sigil Tracer: 3 Mana cost. I put her because of her synergy with Turnabout. BUT I rarely gain advantage from her ability because I need to tap two untapped Wizards, it is sometimes disadvantage because I lose 2 potential cards draw. And she is useless at early game, sometimes I don't need her because I already have twincast, snapcaster and spelltwine.
~Turnabout: 4 Mana Cost. The funny thing is I usually cast this for defend. To tap opponent's creatures before he attacks me. Although probably with High Tide, I can gain a lot of mana with this spell.
Paradox Engine would be great for Azami, but you will be going infinite with it. If you're deliberately building not to do that, I would not include Paradox Engine. You will either combo more than you want to, or play the card in a sub-par way in order to not combo.
If you're trying to avoid infinites, avoid Paradox Engine. It is extremely easy to hit infinite if you have nonland mana sources, and even easier if you have some means of card draw (which Azami gives you in spades with PE online).
Thx for your comments. Yeah I think I will avoid Paradox Engine. Because the only blue mana generators artifact that I run in my deck is only Gilded Lotus or maybe coalition relic. I run mostly colorless mana generators from artifacts, so playing Paradox Engine probably just give me 1 or 2 times (if I get lucky) to draw more from Azami's ability. So I stick with Tamiyo instead, since both have same cost and almost similar effect.
I am an azami edh player. And no, I don't play infinite combo azami. I build this deck without any infinite combo part like mind over matter.
Although I can pull some infinite extra turn with crystal shard and archeomancer sometimes with this deck.
I am wondering about Paradox Engine. It is a must have for Azami? While the ability to untap all my wizards and mana rocks is really interesting, I only run Gilded Lotus and Coalition Relic as my blue mana artifacts. I also don't run isochron scepter in my deck.
I am wondering if I put paradox engine into my deck is better than having Tamiyo or Karn. Because without Gilded Lotus in play, the only benefit I gain by untapping non land permanents is to draw more with azami's ability WHICH I can do the same with Tamiyo.
It seems the discussion is derived so far away from my original question.
Just to clarify some thing, our group has house rules for MLD and no inf combo (you can only do once per turn for inf combo move).
However I agree with most of you saying banning certain commanders doesn't make certain decks weaker because one can out same cards into his/her deck and still strong without his/her original commander.
But IMO, there are several commanders that are very powerful thus make the deck is stronger running those commanders. For example: I am playing Azami and Ghave. IMO, banning Azami and Ghave truly cripples my own decks because I made my deck to run so well with Azami or Ghave and simply change my commanders is not the answer
I have my own list (personal opinion) about this tier 1 commander (in no MLD and No Inf Combo house rule environment)
1. Azami
2. Ghave
3. Animar
4. Uril
5. Grand Arbiter
6. Azusa
7. Omnath
8. Maelstrom
9. Prossh
10. Derevi
11. Chainer
This is purely my opinion about which commmanders are stronger than the other. And please, don't make this thread becomes pro and contra "No MLD no Inf Combo" House rule thread. Because like a user said above: I want to make event in which new EDH players can have a chance of a good fight with others.
I'm looking for a tier list for edh commander with no MLD and no inf combo house rule. I want to make a small junior EDH tournament so everyone who have weaker edh deck can participate and have fun while playing. To avoid any "broken" combo and superior commander, I want to put restriction on which edh commander can be used and put No MLD house rule and No inf combo.
Since most tier lists are based on infinite combo, I can't find any tier list suitable for my situation.
Too many efforts to just make him working in any deck.
There are two problems with him
1. He requires 1 instant spell card from your hand
2. Summoning sickness.
If I have brainstorm in my hand, I prefer cast it instantly during opponent turn and not exile it with elite arcanist.
If you want similar effect but better, you can run Kaho, Minamo Historian in your deck. Same cost, same but better ability and doesnt require 1 instant card
Not worth it, I tried putting him into my azami deck. Sometimes I have to make hard call between cast him and potentially losing 1 valuable instant spell or just keep my instant spell at my hand, thus making him a bad draw.
I prefer keeping my counter spell hidden at my hand instead of summoning this guy and showing my cryptic command exiled with him. It is the same with telling everybody on the table to kill this dude as soon as possible
Cost 0 suspend for 3 turn, is it good to bring along in azami mono blue? Sometimes I needs to gain mana fast at early turn and can I tutor this by using Tezeret the seeker ability?
Thanks for all of your assistance. I think I will go through my thought process and why I will or will not add those cards maybe it will give you a better insight to my crazy mind...
Would like to add Rise from the Dark Realm Never heard of this. I will need 2 copies of this card to fit my extorting zombie deck.
Spelltwine I like the extra effect of not having to pay a mana cost but the exiling part is a tad annoying as I would like to be able to mix my graveyard into my library. I do see its benefits outweigh my thoughts on exiling.
Maybe pile Insidious Dreams - Don't have it. I can see the benefit with Jeleva. This would go in the maybe pile.
Wit's end, MonomaniaUsually this is not a card I want in late game. It does combo well with cyclonic rift though.
Dreamborn Muse I would like to add but it is a creature. It does combo well with cyclonic rift and other return to hand cards.
Mesmeric Orb I am not sure how milling myself will work but I assume that this will work better because I have few permanents that will get tapped. It will work against token decks and most other opponents who will have a lot more on the battlefield.
Time Stretch In my group we don't usually use cards like this. I guess I could trade for it and try it out and see what they have to say after I play it.
Not going to add
Vampiric Tutor: Too expensive and people rarely trade it. I am fine with not having it.
Lightning Greaves- I Just don't have it and it is not always easy to trade for despite it being an uncommon. I know it is the better version of another but I am fine with what I have for now until I am to trade for this.
patriarch's bidding - with the way my group plays this will defeat me more than anything.
I play Jeleva couple of times, and she rocks!! Instead of focusing milling, you should run variety ways to put your opponent card into graveyard.
I only run few creatures, most of them are useful for copying spell like sigil tracer, nivix guildmage, and the new dude from theros. My result from playing 6 games with jeleva, I won all of them
Game 1: I won the game by playing curse of cabal (exiled by Jeleva) and Reverberate it, targetting two green players. Then I copy Blatant Thievery THREE TIMES (thx to melek and twincast), stealing 3 lands from each opponents.
Game 2: Turn 5, wit's end followed by copy spell made two of my opponents cried. Then I cast tooth and nail from my opponent's exile cards lol. After couple of copy extra turns, I won again
Game 3: Well triple copy of bribery won the game for me (lol lucky with dual casting+reiterate
Game 4: Jeleva + Blatant Thievery + Twin Cast. Then next turn, mystical tutor into temporal mastery,copy it for double extra turn. Then Chandra the firebrand copy my wit's end again. I attack someone, bounce Jeleva with Ink Eyes, Servant of Oni and put huge creature from his graveyard.
Game 5: Another mystical tutor into temportal, copy it for double turn. Someone tried to negate it but I simply copy the temporal mastery with another effect. Game continues, until I continously have double extra turn(chandra, twin cast,sigil trace, nivix). Then I finish the game by discarding all of my opponents hand (thx to melek) and traumatize a green deck and then cast raise from the dark realm with Jeleva ability
Interesting analysis and that is exactly what I feel about. I probably will remove Turnabout, Karn, Evacuation and probably Tamiyo. What do you think about Sigil Tracer and High Tide? I do feel High Tide is good card in Azami to doubling mana = faster tempo.
1. Karn
2. Tamiyo
3. Evacuation
4. Sigil Tracer
5. Turnabout
Now I (will) obtain some new cards: High Tide, Kheru Spellsnatcher and Mirage Mirror (from HoU). Which one do you think I need to replace with?
~Karn: High Cost, but works as removal (which as Mono Blue deck doesnt have) and Win Con: 2 extra turn with Karn on board is a win. The 7 cost is slow though
~Tamiyo: 5 Mana cost, works as draw more cards in late game. With several tapped Wizards on board, I can draw more and more cards. Problem is sometimes I have no problem with card draws with Azami on board.
~Evacuation: 5 Mana cost, works sometimes to slow the board. Problem is it also hits my creatures and slow me down. I already run cyclonic rift, cryptic command and turnabout for defensive spells, do I still need Evacuation? But it is very useful against token decks
~Sigil Tracer: 3 Mana cost. I put her because of her synergy with Turnabout. BUT I rarely gain advantage from her ability because I need to tap two untapped Wizards, it is sometimes disadvantage because I lose 2 potential cards draw. And she is useless at early game, sometimes I don't need her because I already have twincast, snapcaster and spelltwine.
~Turnabout: 4 Mana Cost. The funny thing is I usually cast this for defend. To tap opponent's creatures before he attacks me. Although probably with High Tide, I can gain a lot of mana with this spell.
What do you think?
Thx for your comments. Yeah I think I will avoid Paradox Engine. Because the only blue mana generators artifact that I run in my deck is only Gilded Lotus or maybe coalition relic. I run mostly colorless mana generators from artifacts, so playing Paradox Engine probably just give me 1 or 2 times (if I get lucky) to draw more from Azami's ability. So I stick with Tamiyo instead, since both have same cost and almost similar effect.
Although I can pull some infinite extra turn with crystal shard and archeomancer sometimes with this deck.
I am wondering about Paradox Engine. It is a must have for Azami? While the ability to untap all my wizards and mana rocks is really interesting, I only run Gilded Lotus and Coalition Relic as my blue mana artifacts. I also don't run isochron scepter in my deck.
I am wondering if I put paradox engine into my deck is better than having Tamiyo or Karn. Because without Gilded Lotus in play, the only benefit I gain by untapping non land permanents is to draw more with azami's ability WHICH I can do the same with Tamiyo.
What is your opinion, fellow commanders?
Just to clarify some thing, our group has house rules for MLD and no inf combo (you can only do once per turn for inf combo move).
However I agree with most of you saying banning certain commanders doesn't make certain decks weaker because one can out same cards into his/her deck and still strong without his/her original commander.
But IMO, there are several commanders that are very powerful thus make the deck is stronger running those commanders. For example: I am playing Azami and Ghave. IMO, banning Azami and Ghave truly cripples my own decks because I made my deck to run so well with Azami or Ghave and simply change my commanders is not the answer
I have my own list (personal opinion) about this tier 1 commander (in no MLD and No Inf Combo house rule environment)
1. Azami
2. Ghave
3. Animar
4. Uril
5. Grand Arbiter
6. Azusa
7. Omnath
8. Maelstrom
9. Prossh
10. Derevi
11. Chainer
This is purely my opinion about which commmanders are stronger than the other. And please, don't make this thread becomes pro and contra "No MLD no Inf Combo" House rule thread. Because like a user said above: I want to make event in which new EDH players can have a chance of a good fight with others.
Sometimes it is funny to see someone mad because they are unable to win but they think it is fair to prevent someone else from winning
The highest cost of my spells in zedruu deck was 4 lol.
Since most tier lists are based on infinite combo, I can't find any tier list suitable for my situation.
Anyone can help?
There are two problems with him
1. He requires 1 instant spell card from your hand
2. Summoning sickness.
If I have brainstorm in my hand, I prefer cast it instantly during opponent turn and not exile it with elite arcanist.
If you want similar effect but better, you can run Kaho, Minamo Historian in your deck. Same cost, same but better ability and doesnt require 1 instant card
I prefer keeping my counter spell hidden at my hand instead of summoning this guy and showing my cryptic command exiled with him. It is the same with telling everybody on the table to kill this dude as soon as possible
I play Jeleva couple of times, and she rocks!! Instead of focusing milling, you should run variety ways to put your opponent card into graveyard.
I only run few creatures, most of them are useful for copying spell like sigil tracer, nivix guildmage, and the new dude from theros. My result from playing 6 games with jeleva, I won all of them
Game 1: I won the game by playing curse of cabal (exiled by Jeleva) and Reverberate it, targetting two green players. Then I copy Blatant Thievery THREE TIMES (thx to melek and twincast), stealing 3 lands from each opponents.
Game 2: Turn 5, wit's end followed by copy spell made two of my opponents cried. Then I cast tooth and nail from my opponent's exile cards lol. After couple of copy extra turns, I won again
Game 3: Well triple copy of bribery won the game for me (lol lucky with dual casting+reiterate
Game 4: Jeleva + Blatant Thievery + Twin Cast. Then next turn, mystical tutor into temporal mastery,copy it for double extra turn. Then Chandra the firebrand copy my wit's end again. I attack someone, bounce Jeleva with Ink Eyes, Servant of Oni and put huge creature from his graveyard.
Game 5: Another mystical tutor into temportal, copy it for double turn. Someone tried to negate it but I simply copy the temporal mastery with another effect. Game continues, until I continously have double extra turn(chandra, twin cast,sigil trace, nivix). Then I finish the game by discarding all of my opponents hand (thx to melek) and traumatize a green deck and then cast raise from the dark realm with Jeleva ability