If I end up pulling well (which I won't, let's be reasonable here) I'm going to try and build Little Kid Abzan or full blown abzan. I used to play Hatebears and I have some decent G/W staples before selling off the deck previously.
I'll add from my experience that you can out grind Jund with the right build. I've been having great Jund Matchups since I added a Seagate Wreckage, as it effectively helps us draw twice per turn.
But yeah, the Two biggest lopsided matches for the deck have to be Tron and Affinity IMO. Burn you can beat with Scooze/Eidolon of Rhetoric/Finks/What have you, but Affinity just rolls over us Game 1 unless you draw the perfect hand to their bad one. It gets better postboard, but Tron does not. Tron can't be slowed down as easily and Turn 3 Karn/O-Stone just obliterates us.
Rushing out a Thalia, Heretic Cathar slows down Tron Immensely, especially if you draw into your LD. I fought against Tron in an IQ with two MD HC's, and she made it so the Tron player could not play magic at all at some points.
Unbans:
Jace doesn't look like he's really that bad in Modern, especially after how much of a non-event Ancestral Vision turned out. I have a hard time justifying Bloodbraid Elf while stuff like the Expertises are legal, and it doesn't appear to actually be that powerful in Modern, I recall it's ban was more related to Jund, which turned out to be more the fault of things like DShaman, plus there are a bunch of other cards related to the deck it was causing trouble in that are getting banned here, so I doubt it's as much of a threat anymore. While I can see Ponder being an issue, I have trouble justifying keeping Preordain banned, it's powerful, but it seems like it is safe and in color.
Adds: Various adds have different reasons, some of them probably aren't really neccesary for the format, some of them are intended to help with missing spots in the format, some are supposed to help with making up for newly banned things, and some are meant to open up some new strategic options. Counterspell in particular was added because of the need to be able to allow control decks to grow, and enable a real 'turn 4 format' where combo can grow under the policing of control, rather than policing of bans.
Bans:Some cards are just too strong for the decks they turn up in and too flexible, turning up potentially in too many decks across multiple archetypes, and too hard to counter-play for their mana costs for too many decks, like Tarmogoyf. Some are extremely unfriendly to counter-play for their mana costs or effective costs of play in the format, like TS, IoK, Eidolon, Skullcrack, A's Command, and such. Some hate too strongly on basic lands in ways that disrupts format potential, like Boil, Boiling Seas, Choke, and Flashfires. Some slow down the game too much with regular use and complicate interactions with land bases too much, like the fetchlands. Some break fundamental aspects of the game's math and interactions with various card types like pump spells to the point that every new pump spell threatens to put them over the edge like some of the efficient infect creatures I included. Some shut down games too hard for their mana costs (or card types) like BMoon and EBridge. Some overly empower decks that aren't really paying for it, or are rivals for the banned Ponder yet mysteriously get a pass, like Ancient Stirrings and Oath of Nissa. Some shut down fringe strategies too hard like IoK, TS, and Abrupt Decay, shrinking the format too much. Some are too much power for too easy in Modern to pay costs in the right decks, like Cranial Plating, Tasigur, or Become Immense and the other delve cards. Surgical is too close to the banned Gitprobe, less reliable, sure, but too much potential for what is essentially strategic insurance + card advantage with no mana costs. Burnwillows is too good a land in general, and has suspiciously dangerous potential for weird fringe combos turning up in the future. Canopy is too easy to turn into card advantage after using it as a land when you no longer need it, and when one of it's colors is supposed to be bad at card draw. Opal and Simian are too easy of sources for Fast Mana. Snapcaster potentially breaks otherwise fair instant and sorcery spells, and I believe would be too much more dangerous with how many rival stuff got hit by other bans, plus I know some people's concern about him combined with the added to the format counterspell, it's also just a bit too much card advantage-ishness at 2 cmc, both cheaply letting you reccur something from the graveyard quickly, which was thus likely already useful in the game, and putting down a flash body with relatively decent power for blue. Gifts sets up graveyard play too easily, and seems a bit off-color when used that way on top of that. DConfidant is too cheap and reliable for what it does, it's got better drawbacks than goyf, but it still edges into the danger zone, and has a nice benefit that a lot of 'lite' versions that fit into different potential decks have been printed lately to make it a safer ban than it perhaps used to be, but need to be built around more.
TS and IoK and the Moon pair are some of the ones I'm most concerned about banning, I'm hoping that things like Duress can pick up the needed slack for discard, and that getting rid of Moon won't cause Tron to become too much of a problem, because there wasn't cards I could really think of that seemed like they'd effectively help with tron in the right mana cost range and such that weren't also too powerful to add that already exist, but I'm hoping stuff still in the format that is a bit more single-target and the addition of Skyshroud critters and From the Ashes can make up for it.
I'd want to see how this format shakes out before adding or removing things from the new lists. I'd be also willing to be relatively generous in adding things that look safe in big chunks from supplementary products, so long as they aren't on the reserved list and aren't things like un-cards, I only added a relatively small list of them to start off, since it would take too long to make a much bigger list and go through all the relevant cards at once (which is basically anything that I think would be safe and follows some of the above noted rules, like not on the reserved list, although I might hold off on some things extremely unlikely to be reprinted that already have supply problems, like ones using dead/dying mechanics WotC avoids now, like Shroud, Protection, and landwalk).
Unbans:
Jace doesn't look like he's really that bad in Modern, especially after how much of a non-event Ancestral Vision turned out. I have a hard time justifying Bloodbraid Elf while stuff like the Expertises are legal, and it doesn't appear to actually be that powerful in Modern, I recall it's ban was more related to Jund, which turned out to be more the fault of things like DShaman, plus there are a bunch of other cards related to the deck it was causing trouble in that are getting banned here, so I doubt it's as much of a threat anymore. While I can see Ponder being an issue, I have trouble justifying keeping Preordain banned, it's powerful, but it seems like it is safe and in color.
Adds: Various adds have different reasons, some of them probably aren't really neccesary for the format, some of them are intended to help with missing spots in the format, some are supposed to help with making up for newly banned things, and some are meant to open up some new strategic options. Counterspell in particular was added because of the need to be able to allow control decks to grow, and enable a real 'turn 4 format' where combo can grow under the policing of control, rather than policing of bans.
Bans:Some cards are just too strong for the decks they turn up in and too flexible, turning up potentially in too many decks across multiple archetypes, and too hard to counter-play for their mana costs for too many decks, like Tarmogoyf. Some are extremely unfriendly to counter-play for their mana costs or effective costs of play in the format, like TS, IoK, Eidolon, Skullcrack, A's Command, and such. Some hate too strongly on basic lands in ways that disrupts format potential, like Boil, Boiling Seas, Choke, and Flashfires. Some slow down the game too much with regular use and complicate interactions with land bases too much, like the fetchlands. Some break fundamental aspects of the game's math and interactions with various card types like pump spells to the point that every new pump spell threatens to put them over the edge like some of the efficient infect creatures I included. Some shut down games too hard for their mana costs (or card types) like BMoon and EBridge. Some overly empower decks that aren't really paying for it, or are rivals for the banned Ponder yet mysteriously get a pass, like Ancient Stirrings and Oath of Nissa. Some shut down fringe strategies too hard like IoK, TS, and Abrupt Decay, shrinking the format too much. Some are too much power for too easy in Modern to pay costs in the right decks, like Cranial Plating, Tasigur, or Become Immense and the other delve cards. Surgical is too close to the banned Gitprobe, less reliable, sure, but too much potential for what is essentially strategic insurance + card advantage with no mana costs. Burnwillows is too good a land in general, and has suspiciously dangerous potential for weird fringe combos turning up in the future. Canopy is too easy to turn into card advantage after using it as a land when you no longer need it, and when one of it's colors is supposed to be bad at card draw. Opal and Simian are too easy of sources for Fast Mana. Snapcaster potentially breaks otherwise fair instant and sorcery spells, and I believe would be too much more dangerous with how many rival stuff got hit by other bans, plus I know some people's concern about him combined with the added to the format counterspell, it's also just a bit too much card advantage-ishness at 2 cmc, both cheaply letting you reccur something from the graveyard quickly, which was thus likely already useful in the game, and putting down a flash body with relatively decent power for blue. Gifts sets up graveyard play too easily, and seems a bit off-color when used that way on top of that. DConfidant is too cheap and reliable for what it does, it's got better drawbacks than goyf, but it still edges into the danger zone, and has a nice benefit that a lot of 'lite' versions that fit into different potential decks have been printed lately to make it a safer ban than it perhaps used to be, but need to be built around more.
TS and IoK and the Moon pair are some of the ones I'm most concerned about banning, I'm hoping that things like Duress can pick up the needed slack for discard, and that getting rid of Moon won't cause Tron to become too much of a problem, because there wasn't cards I could really think of that seemed like they'd effectively help with tron in the right mana cost range and such that weren't also too powerful to add that already exist, but I'm hoping stuff still in the format that is a bit more single-target and the addition of Skyshroud critters and From the Ashes can make up for it.
I'd want to see how this format shakes out before adding or removing things from the new lists. I'd be also willing to be relatively generous in adding things that look safe in big chunks from supplementary products, so long as they aren't on the reserved list and aren't things like un-cards, I only added a relatively small list of them to start off, since it would take too long to make a much bigger list and go through all the relevant cards at once (which is basically anything that I think would be safe and follows some of the above noted rules, like not on the reserved list, although I might hold off on some things extremely unlikely to be reprinted that already have supply problems, like ones using dead/dying mechanics WotC avoids now, like Shroud, Protection, and landwalk).
I spotted the person whom hates all the top tier decks. /s
Joking aside, that ban list is absolutely asinine. Taking out the best discard cards in the format, some of the efficient creatures and the fetches of all things doesn't make the format better, it makes it simpler and lose a lot of it's mechanical complexity. Simplifying a format does not help it, in fact, it actually hurts it. People come to modern not just because they get to play with their older cards, but because they want to play a much more mechanically deeper format. It's like Melee vs Smash 4: sure, one is more forgiving than the other, but the other one has a layer of technical complexity that some people enjoy. That ban list you provided misses the entire point of that second point: if you want to play a simpler game of magic, play a simpler game of magic.
People need to see that when you're working on a ban list, you have to see what is good for the FORMAT. Not your own personal biases, but what is healthy for the format.
So after selling off my Hatebears list previously, I kinda wanna get back into Modern. The thing is, recently I came into possession of several rather good black spells, like T-Seize, Fatal push, and a few other things. I like hatebears, but it's always been a pain with certain matchups. Is there an Abzan deck that's like Hatebears at doesn't require I buy Goyfs and Lilis?
I proxied GW Hatebears, playtested it a while and love how it plays. I like it more aggressive than WB vial version - the blink tricks are cool, but always came a bit late for my taste. Now I'm thinking about buying into it as my first "real" non-budget deck. My hesitation is, that I barely see good results on a competitive level and I don't really understand why? Does GW Hatebears have any extreme horror match-ups? I don't need to play a Tier 1 deck, but I think I need something at solid tier 2 power level to compete in long terms, because I want to play the deck for a looong time and stay always viable. I really appreciate your help. I want to play a deck I love but I also like winning. The other deck I like would be Coco Elves. Please help me to make the right decision
Thank you
Welcome to the mostly quiet thread of GW hatenbears.
Hatebears is a deck you play if you know your meta extremely well. It's not a solid choice for a blind meta, at least, not anymore. Back when Pod was in charge we were a lot better with Maindeck search hate, but these days we've fallen by the wayside. Hatebears is a deck for unfair metas, in my opinion. Thalias, Quasali Pridemage, Scooze, all the good stuff is used to slow the opponent down and make them play honest or deny them resources
The deck's main issue is that, due to it's colors of G/W and don't bother running a third color thanks to Leonin Arbiter, is that we lack removal. Path is fine and all, but removal like Dromoka's Command and ect require that you have a creature on board. Because of that, the top tier decks will kill you if you go into the late game, or if you don't establish a boardstate early. Jund will easily out attrition you, Tron dropping Ugin is a GG, Eldrazi is Eldrazi (Screw TKS even if our Mana Denial works wonders on them), Burn will ruin your day unless you can stick a Thalia or Kor Firewalker or Finks, and Affinity's a rough fight game 1.
It's a deck that will win despite the odds, but it comes down to you, the pilot. You have to KNOW your Meta very well in order for this deck to do well, not to mention you need to work on predicting how your foe might react.
tl;dr Very skill and knowledge intensive, but very rewarding.
I'm not gonna ***** on Frontier, even if I think the support for it is purely a business standpoint, but there is truth to fusion's statement. If you wanted to grab a card on the cheap before it went up, you waited till after it rotated from Standard. Frontier makes this almost impossible because cards that aren't amazingly good in Modern but good in Frontier will not drop. It's a very unhealthy thing for format prices as a whole, and I'm not fond that CFB is pushing that format just so they can sell their 'worthless' stacks of standard staples that rotated.
It also keeps fetchland prices up even more because suddenly that demand for Fetches has suddenly got a new level of demand. No enemy colored fetches in Frontier, so you HAVE to buy the allied ones. Which increases their demand. Again, the fact that CFB is pushing this format so hard makes me suspect to their motives because the demand for cards in Frontier increases, which feels artificial.
Serum Visions can clear three cards off the top when you are searching for the specific card and can set up MULTIPLE draws. The scry 2 is very valuable to the decks that are running it.
You've a point there, but at the same time, there's still the Instant vs Sorcery portion of that. Opt may get one less but the ability to do it at instant speed does offer new avenues and opens up more options. It wouldn't hurt to have it in modern, and it's not unplay ably bad.
I have to assume you are joking. Undermine and Absorb are three mana. We have PLENTY of three mana hard counters that are not only mono U instead of these multi color monstrosities, they are also BETTER. I'd much prefer scry 1 and colorless mana than paying an extra white gaining 3 life. Absorb would see zero play.
Please think a little harder before listing these type of cards....and Opt? Oh boy, that one is bad.
While Absorb and Undermine aren't the best, they're better than some of the other three mana hard counters. Cancel is Garbage, Disipate is cancel with an exile upside but nothing else. Dissolve is alright, I'll give you that. But while they aren't completely amazing, gaining 3 and making an opponent loose three is still huge. It's one of the reasons people don't play Anguished Unmaking, and it's why Lightning Bolt is so good. 3 is the Magic number here. Undermine bolts their dome if they try and stabilize with something, and Absorb assists with stabilizing. Are they the best? No. But they're better than what we have.
And Opt being bad? I sincerely hope YOU'RE joking, because scrying before you draw AND instant speed is a huge boost over Serum Visions, even if it's scrying one less. If Opt is bad, then why do people play Visions, which is arguably worse?
Most of the cards you listed don't do anything to stop the problem and many are unplayable.
Okay, I'm going to assume you're joking on this post and not blind to how these cards help a lot and most of them are playable.
>Baleful Strix
1/1 Flying Deathtouch for UB that draws a card on ETB (replacing itself in the hand) Is a stupidly good early game blocker against stuff like midrange and early aggression. Not to mention it replaces itself as well as I mentioned earlier. Also Artifact Creature. Tezz decks would love it.
>Innocent Blood and Fatal Push
Both are 1 mana black removal spells that give black a solid first turn play against aggressive decks and just a solid removal spell in general. No need to splash red for lightning bolt means more deck color combos open up like Sultai and Esper.
>Weaker Wasteland
The format needs more than Blood Moon, Ghost Quarter, and Tec edge to punish greedy mana bases. GQ's only good in Death and Taxes and Hatebears because of Leonin Arbiter. Tec Edge is too slow sometimes.
>Opt
It literally reads Scry 1 Draw a card. For one mana. That's card draw and card filtering. People play Serum Visions for a reason.
>Prohibit, Counterspell, Absorb and Undermine.
HARD. COUNTERS. The format NEEDS these things. Control NEEDS hard counters that aren't Spell Snare and Criptic Command.
>Containment Priest
Main Deckable and Sideboardable tool against stuff like Goryo's Vengance and Dredge, as well as Nahiri ults. Also, sticks around rather than being till end of turn like Hallowed Moonlight. This is an ANSWER to cheat in strats.
>Impulse
Digs one deeper than Aniticpate. That one card is huge, and control decks need card selection
>Diabolic Edict
AKA, I don't care if that creature has hexproof, indestructible, or whatever. It's dead now. Works great against Infect because of instant speed.
>Force Spike
Great Tempo Card that would help keep the all in decks in check. Oh, you tapped out? Bam, spell's countered unless you got an extra mana. Delver Decks would love this.
>Memory Lapse.
Another great tempo card. Also fudges up their draw and buys you a turn.
>Fire and Ice
This one I'm having trouble with, but I'm gonna say it's the flexibility of ether burning something or drawing a card.
I get if these cards don't stop the problem entirely, but they do alleviate the issue considerably so that the fair decks have a chance against the unfair decks. To say that these cards do NOTHING to help with the problem, as well as unplayable, is nothing short of asinine.
At this point, I just want Wizards to stop banning stuff and start printing answers so we can unban things. This isn't even funny thing any more; I just want my favorite format to be fun again; the constant bannings are killing that.
I think the issue with Cathartic Reunion is that WOTC intends to print these type of effects for standard in Red
WOTC would have to warp their entire standard cards to keep dredge in check, which are produced 2 years ahead of time
I think if dredge is still a tier 1 deck that is forcing 3 to 6 SB cards, I think they'll rip the core of the engine and ban Gloodghast or Amalgam. I think they want to avoid destroying the entire deck
Wouldnt banning those..destroy the deck? lol
Surge is right, Seigel. Dredge NEEDS those cards to function and win in Modern. Cathartic Reunion, however, is what enables it's nutty draws.
Troll was the best ban, not close for Dredge. As was said Cathartic type effects, Tormenting Voice, etc. is a part of standard going forward. Also taking Troll neuters Cathartic (as people in the dredge thread are currently sad about). Dredge Dredge 6 = 18 cards in gaveyard from Cathartic, Dredge 4= 12 MASSIVE difference.
I understand the point of contention here with that, but to assume that Grave Troll was the one holding the gun here is entirely wrong. Prior to Cathartic, Dredge was strong, but not stupidly strong. With T. Voice, you only dredged twice for 12, which is the equiv of Dredge 4 with Reunion.
It's Cathartic that's broken here; I'll still accept the ban of Troll, that doesn't mean I have to like or agree with it.
what seigel is saying is that the troll ban takes away an alternate path to victory making dredge more of an all in strategy. Wizards did this to AVOID banning amalgam or bloodghast. He is also saying that cathartic reunion is the type of card we will be seeing quite a bit of in standard because it is the type of card draw they like to give red. So, if you ban reunion you need to continually ban every good rummage spell they print for red. whereas, if they attack the deck at another angle that won't be necessary.
Or, instead of banning these cards, they give us some REAL answers that aren't pure sideboard cards. Give us a Maindeckable Answer to those types of effects!
I think the issue with Cathartic Reunion is that WOTC intends to print these type of effects for standard in Red
WOTC would have to warp their entire standard cards to keep dredge in check, which are produced 2 years ahead of time
I think if dredge is still a tier 1 deck that is forcing 3 to 6 SB cards, I think they'll rip the core of the engine and ban Gloodghast or Amalgam. I think they want to avoid destroying the entire deck
Wouldnt banning those..destroy the deck? lol
Surge is right, Seigel. Dredge NEEDS those cards to function and win in Modern. Cathartic Reunion, however, is what enables it's nutty draws.
C
Rushing out a Thalia, Heretic Cathar slows down Tron Immensely, especially if you draw into your LD. I fought against Tron in an IQ with two MD HC's, and she made it so the Tron player could not play magic at all at some points.
I spotted the person whom hates all the top tier decks. /s
Joking aside, that ban list is absolutely asinine. Taking out the best discard cards in the format, some of the efficient creatures and the fetches of all things doesn't make the format better, it makes it simpler and lose a lot of it's mechanical complexity. Simplifying a format does not help it, in fact, it actually hurts it. People come to modern not just because they get to play with their older cards, but because they want to play a much more mechanically deeper format. It's like Melee vs Smash 4: sure, one is more forgiving than the other, but the other one has a layer of technical complexity that some people enjoy. That ban list you provided misses the entire point of that second point: if you want to play a simpler game of magic, play a simpler game of magic.
People need to see that when you're working on a ban list, you have to see what is good for the FORMAT. Not your own personal biases, but what is healthy for the format.
Welcome to the mostly quiet thread of GW hatenbears.
Hatebears is a deck you play if you know your meta extremely well. It's not a solid choice for a blind meta, at least, not anymore. Back when Pod was in charge we were a lot better with Maindeck search hate, but these days we've fallen by the wayside. Hatebears is a deck for unfair metas, in my opinion. Thalias, Quasali Pridemage, Scooze, all the good stuff is used to slow the opponent down and make them play honest or deny them resources
The deck's main issue is that, due to it's colors of G/W and don't bother running a third color thanks to Leonin Arbiter, is that we lack removal. Path is fine and all, but removal like Dromoka's Command and ect require that you have a creature on board. Because of that, the top tier decks will kill you if you go into the late game, or if you don't establish a boardstate early. Jund will easily out attrition you, Tron dropping Ugin is a GG, Eldrazi is Eldrazi (Screw TKS even if our Mana Denial works wonders on them), Burn will ruin your day unless you can stick a Thalia or Kor Firewalker or Finks, and Affinity's a rough fight game 1.
It's a deck that will win despite the odds, but it comes down to you, the pilot. You have to KNOW your Meta very well in order for this deck to do well, not to mention you need to work on predicting how your foe might react.
tl;dr Very skill and knowledge intensive, but very rewarding.
It also keeps fetchland prices up even more because suddenly that demand for Fetches has suddenly got a new level of demand. No enemy colored fetches in Frontier, so you HAVE to buy the allied ones. Which increases their demand. Again, the fact that CFB is pushing this format so hard makes me suspect to their motives because the demand for cards in Frontier increases, which feels artificial.
You've a point there, but at the same time, there's still the Instant vs Sorcery portion of that. Opt may get one less but the ability to do it at instant speed does offer new avenues and opens up more options. It wouldn't hurt to have it in modern, and it's not unplay ably bad.
PRAISE THE SUN, WIZARDS ACTUALLY DO HAVE A SENSE OF RIGHT AND WRONG!
I'm actually excited all of a sudden, maybe we'll see some cool, useful answers soon.
>Paladins are bought out on TCG player;
IT'S HAPPENING.
Also the deck stays blue white, I assume? What's the thoughts on running other colors, or is blue an absolute must have?
While Absorb and Undermine aren't the best, they're better than some of the other three mana hard counters. Cancel is Garbage, Disipate is cancel with an exile upside but nothing else. Dissolve is alright, I'll give you that. But while they aren't completely amazing, gaining 3 and making an opponent loose three is still huge. It's one of the reasons people don't play Anguished Unmaking, and it's why Lightning Bolt is so good. 3 is the Magic number here. Undermine bolts their dome if they try and stabilize with something, and Absorb assists with stabilizing. Are they the best? No. But they're better than what we have.
And Opt being bad? I sincerely hope YOU'RE joking, because scrying before you draw AND instant speed is a huge boost over Serum Visions, even if it's scrying one less. If Opt is bad, then why do people play Visions, which is arguably worse?
Okay, I'm going to assume you're joking on this post and not blind to how these cards help a lot and most of them are playable.
>Baleful Strix
1/1 Flying Deathtouch for UB that draws a card on ETB (replacing itself in the hand) Is a stupidly good early game blocker against stuff like midrange and early aggression. Not to mention it replaces itself as well as I mentioned earlier. Also Artifact Creature. Tezz decks would love it.
>Innocent Blood and Fatal Push
Both are 1 mana black removal spells that give black a solid first turn play against aggressive decks and just a solid removal spell in general. No need to splash red for lightning bolt means more deck color combos open up like Sultai and Esper.
>Weaker Wasteland
The format needs more than Blood Moon, Ghost Quarter, and Tec edge to punish greedy mana bases. GQ's only good in Death and Taxes and Hatebears because of Leonin Arbiter. Tec Edge is too slow sometimes.
>Opt
It literally reads Scry 1 Draw a card. For one mana. That's card draw and card filtering. People play Serum Visions for a reason.
>Prohibit, Counterspell, Absorb and Undermine.
HARD. COUNTERS. The format NEEDS these things. Control NEEDS hard counters that aren't Spell Snare and Criptic Command.
>Containment Priest
Main Deckable and Sideboardable tool against stuff like Goryo's Vengance and Dredge, as well as Nahiri ults. Also, sticks around rather than being till end of turn like Hallowed Moonlight. This is an ANSWER to cheat in strats.
>Impulse
Digs one deeper than Aniticpate. That one card is huge, and control decks need card selection
>Diabolic Edict
AKA, I don't care if that creature has hexproof, indestructible, or whatever. It's dead now. Works great against Infect because of instant speed.
>Force Spike
Great Tempo Card that would help keep the all in decks in check. Oh, you tapped out? Bam, spell's countered unless you got an extra mana. Delver Decks would love this.
>Memory Lapse.
Another great tempo card. Also fudges up their draw and buys you a turn.
>Fire and Ice
This one I'm having trouble with, but I'm gonna say it's the flexibility of ether burning something or drawing a card.
I get if these cards don't stop the problem entirely, but they do alleviate the issue considerably so that the fair decks have a chance against the unfair decks. To say that these cards do NOTHING to help with the problem, as well as unplayable, is nothing short of asinine.
I understand the point of contention here with that, but to assume that Grave Troll was the one holding the gun here is entirely wrong. Prior to Cathartic, Dredge was strong, but not stupidly strong. With T. Voice, you only dredged twice for 12, which is the equiv of Dredge 4 with Reunion.
It's Cathartic that's broken here; I'll still accept the ban of Troll, that doesn't mean I have to like or agree with it.
Or, instead of banning these cards, they give us some REAL answers that aren't pure sideboard cards. Give us a Maindeckable Answer to those types of effects!
Surge is right, Seigel. Dredge NEEDS those cards to function and win in Modern. Cathartic Reunion, however, is what enables it's nutty draws.