A few adjustments to how I get my mana and my mana base. Decided on the utopia sprawl because creature removal is more prevalent in my playgroup. Gyre sage works well with doubling season and Marath. Managed to trade for the Stomping Ground + Foundry.
Marath token/counter deck on a semi-budget. I'd like to keep the general cost low for this deck. I own a bunch of the pieces already (Doubling Season, Elesh Norn, Exploration and a few others) so while it doesn't seem budget, I'm really only investing $100 into this deck (maybe less because of the reprints in MM3).
Deck focuses on winning by either combo with Marath or Token beat down. Don't think I really need to go into detail on each Marath Combo, they're pretty basic but two are...
So a few months back I researched and crafted a Meren deck and got a few opinions on it through multiple threads. However, I have gotten extremely busy since then and haven't had a chance to make the deck or really keep up with the cards released since then. Since everything has slowed down a bit (at least for the next few weeks) I figured it would be a good time to gather some more opinions on the deck and finalize it. Since this is budget I would like to keep the final price to about the price of the "Need these" list which will be linked under the deck. Additionally, there is a wishlist below which shows cards I know should be in the deck but are excluded for money reasons.
One suggestion that has not been implemented from last time was to remove all my mana rocks and add null rod. This hasn't been implemented because this requires me to but Bloom Tender, Null Rod, Miri's Guile (to replace Sensei's) which for a budget deck is much too expensive. Additionally, Mike is missing for a similar reason (price) but will be added in the future.
Seems unique but is midrange really going to win me the game? I feel like with up to 5 players it could fall flat later like my Doran deck does.
You actually have some pretty explosive options for the late game. One option is to ramp into big stuff like eldrazi, but I prefer riskier plays like Scapeshift or Zuran Orb into a bunch of elementals. It's also perfectly reasonable to tutor up Kamahl, Fist of Krosa and kill everyone with your mana dorks.
Ok I see it a bit more now, self land dest. is a bit risky though. Unless I'm running some good land recursion it could put me in a bad spot.
I'll suggest Titania midrange. I think she flies under the radar pretty well and can pack flexible answers for unknown metas. Cards like Constant Mists are absolute bombs if there's not a lot of counter magic floating around.
Seems unique but is midrange really going to win me the game? I feel like with up to 5 players it could fall flat later like my Doran deck does.
You could always play a deck that's power scales with the power of your opponents decks, but is still good on its own. My grenzo deck Is just aggro that ramps to eldrazi so its just pure power. Although with grenzo out on the board you can just steal your opponents cards and play with their deck instead of your own. Also you can build the deck rather cheap and still be very efficient.
The only problem I see with a deck that scales based off opponents (stuff like Merieki, certain graveyard decks that rely on mill etc) is that if they don't run great creatures just good non-combat ways to win, the deck doesn't really scale. Additionally, people don't like their stuff being stolen.
well the thing is with the grenzo deck you arent really stealing their stuff you are instead just playing off of their deck to where you arent stealing from their board it isnt as bad as it might sound
Fair, but it still runs into the issue of knowing which decks are the best and which decks are useless to take from.
You could always play a deck that's power scales with the power of your opponents decks, but is still good on its own. My grenzo deck Is just aggro that ramps to eldrazi so its just pure power. Although with grenzo out on the board you can just steal your opponents cards and play with their deck instead of your own. Also you can build the deck rather cheap and still be very efficient.
The only problem I see with a deck that scales based off opponents (stuff like Merieki, certain graveyard decks that rely on mill etc) is that if they don't run great creatures just good non-combat ways to win, the deck doesn't really scale. Additionally, people don't like their stuff being stolen.
I think Maelstrom Wanderer is a powerful option that can be tuned while also being fun to play with/against. I'd make sure you have exciting spells to cascade into, and since a lot of exciting spells are powerful, you should be fine. If you find out that your meta likes mean decks, you can also Jokulhaups your way to victory.
Maelstrom I'm going to consider but have a bit of a bias about such high cmc generals. If the meta doesn't mind mean decks I would probably just bring my stax deck if I needed the win but some good old fashion mld wouldn't hurt either.
Figured its worth mentioning, but meren graveyard shenanigans is a deck that typically does very well in more casual metas (aka no infinites) and not only doesnt need a bunch of extra turns, but cant even run them!
Kaalia is actually another great choice here, in groups with no infinites you typically have more than enough time to just cast fatties if they mamage to shut down kaalia
I wouldn't mind a graveyard deck, I've honestly always wanted one. That being said, is Meren the best option? I don't mind having two Meren decks that are vastly different but would including a third color be a benefit or just a downside?
Kaalia is always a good non combo deck but its also absurdly expensive to make.
More or less. There is an Official Primer for him. I discuss there a bit and my list is pretty similar. Basically an enchantment based pillowfort/ BW control where you play fairly politically. Daxos is never an immediate threat so he tends to slip under the radar until it's too late.
Seems interesting, I don't really have any similar deck and haven't dove into pillowfort much. I'll look into it.
Meren is a pretty good choice given that you already like the general, and having reanimate in the command zone is huge. Other options are there of course, alesha, mimeoplasm, etc, but meren is very strong
As for kaalia, i really think you underestimate how powered down a group that doesn't allow infinites or extra turns is, you really dont need to build a 100% optimized kaalia to compete in this meta most likely
I'll probably look into Meren if I want to go the graveyard route since I do love the general. As for Kaalia, yeah I could probably go with a semi-budget build but I feel like I wouldn't be doing the deck justice but I guess it could be an option. I also don't think you can judge the playgroup solely on those rules. I've played against some fairly degenerate decks with no infinite combos and not excessive turn taking. While I personally think its a bit... short sited to remove combos/extra turns from a meta (really screws with the balance if the players are even at a 75% level) I can't really judge if it means they tend to play casual decks or just get annoyed at combos.
Figured its worth mentioning, but meren graveyard shenanigans is a deck that typically does very well in more casual metas (aka no infinites) and not only doesnt need a bunch of extra turns, but cant even run them!
Kaalia is actually another great choice here, in groups with no infinites you typically have more than enough time to just cast fatties if they mamage to shut down kaalia
I wouldn't mind a graveyard deck, I've honestly always wanted one. That being said, is Meren the best option? I don't mind having two Meren decks that are vastly different but would including a third color be a benefit or just a downside?
Kaalia is always a good non combo deck but its also absurdly expensive to make.
More or less. There is an Official Primer for him. I discuss there a bit and my list is pretty similar. Basically an enchantment based pillowfort/ BW control where you play fairly politically. Daxos is never an immediate threat so he tends to slip under the radar until it's too late.
Seems interesting, I don't really have any similar deck and haven't dove into pillowfort much. I'll look into it.
Are you sure Animar and Meren need infinite combos to win timely? Or are you just saying you'd have to make significant changes? If you don't want to run stax with Meren you can always just go value town with some control elements and still be pretty successful. Animar is also still capable of doing all kinds of broken stuff without infinite combos. You may need to make some adjustments depending on how competitive the meta is, but I'd think Meren and animar are still viable.
I'm saying that my decks in their current state need the combos. Animar less than Meren. While I'm sure stax can win by biding time and not comboing with necrotic ooze etc I'd rather end the game than sit there watching people miserably draw card after card to just discard it or have to sac it while I beat them down with mana dorks and Pox. Sure I could win the game, but who the hell wants to play against me after that? It is viable and I'll probably bring Meren at some point but starting with that demoralizing fight against stax won't make me friends.
As for Animar, I can sure win without infinite combos but it slows down my game. I try to run Animar for the pre turn 10 win most of the time and if I wanted to go for a non-combo Animar I'm looking at a fair amount of changes (removing Ancestral statue, less utility more big fatties, a bit more control etc) which really isn't work the time or effort to constantly switch it between the two depending on who I play with.
I'm referring to more of the political version of him I made a year back. I made him focus more on giving people and chance to get cards and almost pillow myself until I could drop a wincon. Didn't even work the first game sadly.
Ah, that's understandable. I have somewhat of the same attitude to your playgroup to decks like that - if someone's playing politics, trying to get me to attack other people, he's probably the real threat
For a more competitive build, there's an excellent Primer over in the multiplayer decklists subforum, which I used as the base for what I built.
Yeah I was trying something new, out of my two playgroups I have one that will kill me first no matter what (board state, mana, other decks etc) simply because I'm a superior player (that sounds super conceited but its true/confirmed by them) so I was hoping to give myself a break.
To be honest, I'd probably start by taking your more casual decks down there for the first session, see what the competition is like - it's usually easier to make a good first impression by being too casual than too competitive. It might well turn out that they're of the right level for what others are playing.
But as for the main question, maybe Edric, Spymaster of Trest? While a typical build will be taking extra turns to win, you're going to be limited on the total number you can take (my build incidentally maxes out at 5: 3 extra turn spells and two ways to reccur them), it doesn't need infinite combos and though you'll be looking at running countermagic, you're not going to be totally locking people out of the game or staxing them into submission, yet overall it's a very strong build and I've not had much trouble taking out 5-6 player tables. It's also not too expensive - you need to get a solid manabase, but the core of the deck is cheap creatures and you can still get a good counterspell suite even if you're not willing to splash out on Force of Will or Mana Drain.
I do plan to start with the casual decks to understand the meta and the players better before going more competitive but I'm hoping to brew something so I can gather up what I need and in a few weeks bring something of a bit higher strength down.
Edric is something I've toyed with in the past but never worked in my playgroups. People don't see Edric in my playgroups and think "Oh we should attack each other" it turns more into "we should beat the ******** who wants us to attack each other". That being said, a new playgroup of different players might remedy the issues I've experienced. I already have a fair amount of solid mana base pieces for UG and some decent cards not in use so it wouldn't be a bad start.
To be honest, I often forget that Edric even lets other players draw. He's not there for the group hug or to encourage people to attack others, he's the general because he typically has me drawing 3+ extra cards a turn by T3-4 . Which draws me into the creatures I need to draw even more, counterspells I need to protect my boardstate and the extra turns and overruns I need to win.
I'm referring to more of the political version of him I made a year back. I made him focus more on giving people and chance to get cards and almost pillow myself until I could drop a wincon. Didn't even work the first game sadly.
To be honest, I'd probably start by taking your more casual decks down there for the first session, see what the competition is like - it's usually easier to make a good first impression by being too casual than too competitive. It might well turn out that they're of the right level for what others are playing.
But as for the main question, maybe Edric, Spymaster of Trest? While a typical build will be taking extra turns to win, you're going to be limited on the total number you can take (my build incidentally maxes out at 5: 3 extra turn spells and two ways to reccur them), it doesn't need infinite combos and though you'll be looking at running countermagic, you're not going to be totally locking people out of the game or staxing them into submission, yet overall it's a very strong build and I've not had much trouble taking out 5-6 player tables. It's also not too expensive - you need to get a solid manabase, but the core of the deck is cheap creatures and you can still get a good counterspell suite even if you're not willing to splash out on Force of Will or Mana Drain.
I do plan to start with the casual decks to understand the meta and the players better before going more competitive but I'm hoping to brew something so I can gather up what I need and in a few weeks bring something of a bit higher strength down.
Edric is something I've toyed with in the past but never worked in my playgroups. People don't see Edric in my playgroups and think "Oh we should attack each other" it turns more into "we should beat the ******** who wants us to attack each other". That being said, a new playgroup of different players might remedy the issues I've experienced. I already have a fair amount of solid mana base pieces for UG and some decent cards not in use so it wouldn't be a bad start.
So I recently discovered that a LGS near me started a commander league. Since I rarely get to play right now due to my playgroup being spread out over a few surrounding states I figured it would be a great place to get some games in.
The problem is the additional rules. I currently run 3 decks that use infinite combos (Roon, Animar and Meren Stax). Roon I can simply remove a card or two and fix but Animar and Meren both need their combos to remain relevant or win in a timely manner. Roon doesn't rely on infinite combos (Pergrine Drake, Deadeye, Arachaemancer, Time Warp etc) but really does much better with the ability to take multiple consecutive turns and running huge combos. I could run Meren stax without combos but... I don't feel like walking into a group for the first time playing stax and being hated.
This leaves me with my Ashling, the Pilgrim and Doran decks to run when I attend. This being said, Ashling is very casual and more relies on being political and holding repercussion and a big damage spell and Doran has good potential in smaller games since he is very strong early/mid but he falls off later and doesn't handle games of 5+ very well.
Since I was already considering making another EDH deck I figured it might as well fill the needs of this new meta I am looking to try.
Basically this deck needs a general who can:
- Scale decently with the game size
- Not have infinite combos as a necessary wincon
- Not take an absurd amount of extra turns
- Be decently competitive
- Not make my new meta hate me.
-1 Elvish Mystic
-1 Fortified Village
-1 Mountain
+1 Utopia Sprawl
+1 Gyre Sage
+1 Stomping Ground
+1 Sacred Foundry
A few adjustments to how I get my mana and my mana base. Decided on the utopia sprawl because creature removal is more prevalent in my playgroup. Gyre sage works well with doubling season and Marath. Managed to trade for the Stomping Ground + Foundry.
Deck focuses on winning by either combo with Marath or Token beat down. Don't think I really need to go into detail on each Marath Combo, they're pretty basic but two are...
- Doubling Season + Marath of the Wild + Mana Echoes/Ashnod's Altar -- Infinite Mana/Tokens/Ping Damage with Marath
- Marath of the Wild + Ivy Lane Denizen / Cathars' Crusade + Ashnod's Altar = Infinite ETB/Mana (Add Purphoros, God of the Forge / Impact Tremors / Warstorm Surge for Infinite Damage)
The deck can also win through non-infinite means such as making a bunch of tokens and then using Kamahl, Fist of Krosa or Soul of Theros to beef them up or a static buff such as Shared Animosity or Coat of Arms. Tokens are mainly made through abusing Marath but can go off just as well with a fed Mycoloth or an Assemble the Legion.
Here is the deck list for your review.
1x Gyre Sage
1x Craterhoof Behemoth
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1x Eternal Witness
1x Grand Abolisher
1x Ivy Lane Denizen
1x Kamahl, Fist of Krosa
1x Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1x Mentor of the Meek
1x Mirror Entity
1x Mycoloth
1x Nightshade Peddler
1x Ogre Battledriver
1x Purphoros, God of the Forge
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Sakura-Tribe Elder
1x Solemn Simulacrum
1x Soul of Theros
1x Sylvan Ranger
1x Wood Elves
Artifact (9)
1x Ashnod's Altar
1x Basilisk Collar
1x Bow of Nylea
1x Chromatic Lantern
1x Coat of Arms
1x Eldrazi Monument
1x Skullclamp
1x Sol Ring
1x Swiftfoot Boots
1x Collective Unconscious
1x Farseek
1x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Harmonize
1x Kodama's Reach
1x Plea for Guidance
1x Rout
1x Shamanic Revelation
1x Sylvan Scrying
1x Triumph of the Hordes
Planeswalker (1)
1x Xenagos, the Reveler
Enchantment (18)
1x Assemble the Legion
1x Aura Shards
1x Beastmaster Ascension
1x Burgeoning
1x Cathars' Crusade
1x Cryptolith Rite
1x Doubling Season
1x Evolutionary Leap
1x Exploration
1x Fires of Yavimaya
1x Hardened Scales
1x Impact Tremors
1x Mana Echoes
1x Parallel Lives
1x Shared Animosity
1x Sylvan Library
1x Warstorm Surge
1x Utopia Sprawl
1x Beast Within
1x Chaos Warp
1x Crop Rotation
1x Enlightened Tutor
1x Krosan Grip
1x Secure the Wastes
1x Swords to Plowshares
Land (34)
1x Battlefield Forge
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Canopy Vista
1x Clifftop Retreat
1x Command Tower
1x Exotic Orchard
1x Flooded Strand
8x Forest
1x Stomping Ground
1x Gavony Township
1x Ghost Quarter
5x Mountain
1x Sacred Foundry
5x Plains
1x Sunpetal Grove
1x Tectonic Edge
1x Temple Garden
1x Temple of Abandon
1x Temple of Triumph
1x Birds of Paradise
1x Carrion Feeder
1x Caustic Caterpillar
1x Elves of Deep Shadow
1x Elvish Mystic
1x Eternal Witness
1x Farhaven Elf
1x Fauna Shaman
1x Fleshbag Marauder
1x Fyndhorn Elves
1x Grim Haruspex
1x Heart Warden
1x Llanowar Elves
1x Magus of the Abyss
1x Merciless Executioner
1x Mindslicer
1x Necrotic Ooze
1x Oracle of Mul Daya
1x Pawn of Ulamog
1x Phyrexian Devourer
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Rune-Scarred Demon
1x Sakura-Tribe Elder
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Sidisi, Undead Vizier
1x Spore Frog
1x Triskelion
1x Viscera Seer
1x Wood Elves
1x Beast Within
1x Nature's Claim
1x Putrefy
1x Worldly Tutor
Land (34)
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Command Tower
9x Forest
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Grim Backwoods
1x High Market
1x Hissing Quagmire
1x Llanowar Wastes
1x Mortuary Mire
1x Mystifying Maze
1x Polluted Delta
8x Swamp
1x Tainted Wood
1x Tectonic Edge
1x Temple of Malady
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Windswept Heath
1x Woodland Cemetery
Enchantment (11)
1x Attrition
1x Awakening Zone
1x Contamination
1x Desolation
1x Dictate of Erebos
1x Evolutionary Leap
1x From Beyond
1x Oppression
1x Pernicious Deed
1x Phyrexian Arena
1x Sylvan Library
1x Birthing Pod
1x Commander's Sphere
1x Golgari Signet
1x Lightning Greaves
1x Possessed Portal
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Skullclamp
1x Smokestack
1x Sol Ring
1x Tangle Wire
1x Thran Dynamo
1x Winter Orb
1x Worn Powerstone
Sorcery (8)
1x Ashes to Ashes
1x Buried Alive
1x Damnation
1x Death Cloud
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Pox
1x Victimize
1x Ashes to Ashes
1x Death Cloud
1x Pox
Enchantment (7)
1x Attrition
1x Contamination
1x Desolation
1x Evolutionary Leap
1x From Beyond
1x Oppression
1x Phyrexian Arena
1x Tangle Wire
1x Thran Dynamo
1x Worn Powerstone
Creature (12)
1x Birds of Paradise
1x Carrion Feeder
1x Caustic Caterpillar
1x Elves of Deep Shadow
1x Fauna Shaman
1x Heart Warden
1x Magus of the Abyss
1x Necrotic Ooze
1x Phyrexian Devourer
1x Sidisi, Undead Vizier
1x Spore Frog
1x Viscera Seer
1x Llanowar Wastes
1x Mystifying Maze
1x Tectonic Edge
1x Temple of Malady
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Woodland Cemetery
1x Vampiric Tutor
Enchantment (3)
1x Earthcraft
1x Grave Pact
1x Mirri's Guile
1x Null Rod
1x Phyrexian Altar
1x Bloom Tender
1x Mikaeus, the Unhallowed
One suggestion that has not been implemented from last time was to remove all my mana rocks and add null rod. This hasn't been implemented because this requires me to but Bloom Tender, Null Rod, Miri's Guile (to replace Sensei's) which for a budget deck is much too expensive. Additionally, Mike is missing for a similar reason (price) but will be added in the future.
Ok I see it a bit more now, self land dest. is a bit risky though. Unless I'm running some good land recursion it could put me in a bad spot.
Seems unique but is midrange really going to win me the game? I feel like with up to 5 players it could fall flat later like my Doran deck does.
Fair, but it still runs into the issue of knowing which decks are the best and which decks are useless to take from.
The only problem I see with a deck that scales based off opponents (stuff like Merieki, certain graveyard decks that rely on mill etc) is that if they don't run great creatures just good non-combat ways to win, the deck doesn't really scale. Additionally, people don't like their stuff being stolen.
Maelstrom I'm going to consider but have a bit of a bias about such high cmc generals. If the meta doesn't mind mean decks I would probably just bring my stax deck if I needed the win but some good old fashion mld wouldn't hurt either.
I'll probably look into Meren if I want to go the graveyard route since I do love the general. As for Kaalia, yeah I could probably go with a semi-budget build but I feel like I wouldn't be doing the deck justice but I guess it could be an option. I also don't think you can judge the playgroup solely on those rules. I've played against some fairly degenerate decks with no infinite combos and not excessive turn taking. While I personally think its a bit... short sited to remove combos/extra turns from a meta (really screws with the balance if the players are even at a 75% level) I can't really judge if it means they tend to play casual decks or just get annoyed at combos.
I wouldn't mind a graveyard deck, I've honestly always wanted one. That being said, is Meren the best option? I don't mind having two Meren decks that are vastly different but would including a third color be a benefit or just a downside?
Kaalia is always a good non combo deck but its also absurdly expensive to make.
Seems interesting, I don't really have any similar deck and haven't dove into pillowfort much. I'll look into it.
I'm saying that my decks in their current state need the combos. Animar less than Meren. While I'm sure stax can win by biding time and not comboing with necrotic ooze etc I'd rather end the game than sit there watching people miserably draw card after card to just discard it or have to sac it while I beat them down with mana dorks and Pox. Sure I could win the game, but who the hell wants to play against me after that? It is viable and I'll probably bring Meren at some point but starting with that demoralizing fight against stax won't make me friends.
As for Animar, I can sure win without infinite combos but it slows down my game. I try to run Animar for the pre turn 10 win most of the time and if I wanted to go for a non-combo Animar I'm looking at a fair amount of changes (removing Ancestral statue, less utility more big fatties, a bit more control etc) which really isn't work the time or effort to constantly switch it between the two depending on who I play with.
Seems interesting, how did you focus the deck? A bunch of cheap enchantments into token love?
Yeah I was trying something new, out of my two playgroups I have one that will kill me first no matter what (board state, mana, other decks etc) simply because I'm a superior player (that sounds super conceited but its true/confirmed by them) so I was hoping to give myself a break.
I'm referring to more of the political version of him I made a year back. I made him focus more on giving people and chance to get cards and almost pillow myself until I could drop a wincon. Didn't even work the first game sadly.
I do plan to start with the casual decks to understand the meta and the players better before going more competitive but I'm hoping to brew something so I can gather up what I need and in a few weeks bring something of a bit higher strength down.
Edric is something I've toyed with in the past but never worked in my playgroups. People don't see Edric in my playgroups and think "Oh we should attack each other" it turns more into "we should beat the ******** who wants us to attack each other". That being said, a new playgroup of different players might remedy the issues I've experienced. I already have a fair amount of solid mana base pieces for UG and some decent cards not in use so it wouldn't be a bad start.
The problem is the additional rules. I currently run 3 decks that use infinite combos (Roon, Animar and Meren Stax). Roon I can simply remove a card or two and fix but Animar and Meren both need their combos to remain relevant or win in a timely manner. Roon doesn't rely on infinite combos (Pergrine Drake, Deadeye, Arachaemancer, Time Warp etc) but really does much better with the ability to take multiple consecutive turns and running huge combos. I could run Meren stax without combos but... I don't feel like walking into a group for the first time playing stax and being hated.
This leaves me with my Ashling, the Pilgrim and Doran decks to run when I attend. This being said, Ashling is very casual and more relies on being political and holding repercussion and a big damage spell and Doran has good potential in smaller games since he is very strong early/mid but he falls off later and doesn't handle games of 5+ very well.
Since I was already considering making another EDH deck I figured it might as well fill the needs of this new meta I am looking to try.
Basically this deck needs a general who can:
- Scale decently with the game size
- Not have infinite combos as a necessary wincon
- Not take an absurd amount of extra turns
- Be decently competitive
- Not make my new meta hate me.
Thanks for any suggestions!
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Golgari Rot Farm