Sorry, when I wrote this, I was a bit inebriated, and by the time I saw your reply, anything I wrote would have been even more rambling and incoherent than my usual writing style, so I waited until morning.
I'm asking about decks that reverse the late-game and early-game strategies of your Tier 1 choices (I can't imagine they'll still be Tier 1 afterward, but I'm still interested in their merits). To make it more clear, I'm going to replace the hyphens with arrows, showing the flow of time from one strategy in the early game, to the strategy that ends the game. Take, for example, the Control-Combo deck you put in Tier 1, and let's rename it as "Control->Combo" to clarify that it begins by slowing the game down with Control elements, while assembling the pieces of a Combo finish.
I'm interested in decks that reverse this, so let's consider "Combo->Control", a deck that assembles early Combo pieces with the aim to assemble an immovable object of sorts, a hard Control finish. I think Tron would be a good example of this in the 1v1 scene; it requires Maps and Chromatic artifacts to be assembled in order to present a nearly unassailable Control finish. I tried something similar with my Master Transmuter deck, it uses 2 or 3 pieces (Master Transmuter, Thousand-Year Elixir, and depending on luck, Sphinx Summoner) to find, and then to protect and reuse, some soft control elements (spot removal and board wipe).
So I guess the question can be distilled down to this: Given that combo finishes are so strong in multiplayer, can other styles of finishing the game be strong as well, if they are given sufficient speed and power by leveraging a value combo engine to fulfil their goals?
After running Lurking Predators for years, I always wanted another 3-4 copies of a similar "overwhelming value" effect. I settled on Genesis Wave and have had amazing success with it; two nights ago it saved me from an impossible game as a lucky topdeck for x=8 hitting the most disgustingly lucky chain of cards: I kid you not, I hit Sylvan Primordial to destroy the Urborg that was threating to kill me next turn with a swampwalk fatty, Primeval Titan fetching Nykthos and Kessig Wolf Run, Pelakka Wurm bringing me from 3 up to 10 life, and Hornet Queen to gum up the board, along with two more lands and two more Axebane Guardian to make the next turn's Kessig lethal to the player who was, up to that point, the king of the table.
There's just nothing I've found that does the same "I'm going to vomit more power and toughness than you can possibly handle" effect like Lurking Predators and Genesis Wave. Tooth and Nail takes the edge in consistency, but I think Genesis Wave wins out over-all for raw power.
It's definitely the optimal strategy to go with a combo finish in multiplayer, no matter the archetype, so I definitely agree with the Tier 1 list here. I was wondering, what do you think about the opposite sort of decks? Let me explain. So here you've (rightly, I think) identified the definitive multiplayer strategy as decks that aim for a combo finish, and the flavors within that archetype are defined by where they fall on the 3 axises of speed (pure combo), resiliency (midrange combo), and interactiveness (control combo). I'm curious about decks that aim for either a finish defined as midrange (superior board presence, value, interaction) or defined as control (card advantage, interaction, inevitability), but that accomplish these goals through powerful combo elements.
I think you've hinted at an answer - that they're Tier 2 or 3 - by the placement of Ramp, as Ramp is probably the most well-known Combo-Midrange deck. As for an example of Combo-Control, it would probably be something like a Miracles deck or an Isochron Scepter deck, but I don't think any amount of extra power from leveraging combo pieces is going to prop up a deck with "inevitability via overwhelming number of answers" in a format with, as you put it, so many "questions". I guess there's a second question to be asked here: is Combo-Control possible, is there a conceivable arrangement of combo pieces to make "answers and card advantage" viable, or is Control-Combo so vastly superior? I think I know the answer already.
when it comes to more complex cards such as Doomsday people can definitely still make mistakes.
Oh god you're telling me. I very rarely play Magic sober, so things can get very ugly/hilarious when I bring out Doomsday. "Okay, so sac both lands, play Dark Ritual [...] draw the last four cards in my library, spend the last floating 3 black for Laboratory Maniac and... wait... crap..."
In 1v1 duels, the broad archetypes are well-understood and there's a wealth of information regarding their form and function. You know these broad archetypes well, I'm sure: aggro, tempo, control, midrange, and combo.
In multiplayer, a few of these archetypes lose their luster and disappear from comprehensive metagames. Aggro is nowhere to be found at most 4+ player tables, and tempo might be even worse off. Control is forced to undergo drastic changes, as spot removal and 1-for-1 answers don't have much of an impact against multiple opponents. These changes are enough to make most decks that aim to be a control strategy actually behave more like midrange than anything else; after all, an empty board is a huge liability in multiplayer.
So in my experience, multiplayer Magic is the bastion of midrange and combo. With only 2/5ths of the diversity of archetypes when compared to 1v1, it makes sense to look closer at midrange and its various flavors, for within them lies the diversity of the format, I think.
Help me compile some multiplayer broad archetypes. Please don't be specific, be as general as possible.
Some successful archetypes that come to mind:
Prison
Ramp
Toolbox
Reanimator
Tokens and Go Wide strategies (is this the format's aggro, or just another flavor of combo?)
Classic Midrange (board presence and board control focused)
Creature-based Combo
Storm-like Combo / Spellslinger
Traditional Tutor-based, 2-card Combo
ect.
What are your thoughts on the broad archetypes and pillars of the multiplayer format?
I got confused by the old wisdom, "instead of Brainstorm EOT, wait for your next second main to see an extra card" and thought looting might follow similar wisdom.
However, the difference here, I believe, is that Looter can be activated every turn, whereas Brainstorm is obviously a finite resource and you want to get max value out of your one use of it.
As my multiplayer metagame shifts away from removal in favor of "go over the top!" synergistic strategies and combos, I'm going to revamp my Lurking Predators deck to have more bang, if less resiliency to removal. My first version was designed to have absolute resiliency with creatures who pretty much never died, while beating your face in. Unfortunately, while it does work fairly well, most of my losses came from my opponents taking my big tramplers to the face for a turn, and dropping noncreature-permanent combos. What do you do when your opponents can eat your damage without dying, or are winning instantly with 2-3 noncreatures, and you're playing mono-green? You sleeve up Prime Time and the Sylvanfather and YOU BEAT FACE HARDER, while EATING THEIR NONCREATURES. You need capslock to play creatures this green!
So the lands and ramp creatures shell is almost identical to my old Lurking Predators deck, so I know it works super well. Obviously Prime Time and Sylvanfather are primo multiplayer workhorses, and Lurking out a Worldspine can't be a bad idea no matter how you spin it. I'm a little unsure about Pelakka Wurm and Hornet Queen though. I think they are good, but if you can't tell, I'm a bit hyped about this revamp, and I worry the hype may be clouding my judgement.
Pelakka is here because I want a fatter, more offensive Thragtusk. He gains you life, hits hard, replaces himself, and tramples where Thrag can't: this deck isn't looking to stall. This is a green mage's Thragtusk. I'm pretty sure Thraggy is white under all that fur for all the blocking he does. Pelakka is coming for your booty, whereas Thragtusk just gets in your way a little.
Hornet Queen was originally Tornado Elemental and either one accomplishes the same goal: ward off or kill enemy dragons. In my metagame, if you're not going over the top or dropping noncreature combos, you're swinging with big fat fliers. Except now, you're swinging them at other people, because I have 5 flying blockers with deathtouch. Also, it's one card that attacks as 5 separate creatures, and Kessig Wolf Run makes any of them brutal if you decide that losing 5 cards to chump block my 1 card isn't a great deal. Hey, I think I just talked myself out of my apprehension, this card is nuts.
If you're curious, here's the resiliency-focused Lurking Predators list I currently run:
I would recommend not using 4x all those restricted cards. It's not even legal in vintage, everyone is going to just laugh and not bother playing you because you aren't even remotely following the rules of magic. You might as well make your deck 40 cards and completely throw out the 4-card-max rule too while you're at it, maybe put all four Jacks in there too so you can tinker for the euchre for good measure.
Warning for Trolling.
Editing the moderated part of a post violates the forum rules. Strike-through removed. No warning since the text was left fully intact.
-ThatRedwood
Sorry guys, not sure how I thought this was appropriate when I wrote it.
I think that looks pretty good for a starting point. I'd say put it together and see how it runs. I really like the mycosynth + darksteel + disk combo, my friend runs that same combo in his artifact list and it's pretty beastly when it's assembled.
I'd say you still have too many game winning creatures and not enough supporting stuff. And definitely not enough land. A 60 card deck should run 40% land, 24 cards.
What exactly is your plan with this deck? Is it aiming to drop an early big creature and ride it to victory? Or is it to assemble a combo and win off of that? Or something else? Name a very precise game plan, then ask yourself how each card contributes to that plan. If your justifications for any card seem shaky or if the card requires a specific scenario to be justifiable, omit it.
So here's some handy tips for deck building. Cutting down to 60 cards sounds painful, but it's definitely necessary. Having more than 60 just makes it less and less likely that you'll find your best cards. Pick the very best cards and run 4 of them, then take out the ones that aren't the very best, even if you like them. Drawing the best cards is better than drawing random bad cards that don't help as much.
Generally the rule of thumb for how many multiples of cards you want goes like this:
4x - your best cards, the ones you always want to see every game and don't mind drawing multiples of
3x - cards you'd like to see every game but either they aren't good in multiples or you don't want to get them in your opening hand
2x - cards that definitely aren't good in multiples, and you don't care if they don't always show up every game
1x - you better have a way to search for it, because the odds of drawing it are really low, or else you'd be better off omitting it
Obviously some exceptions apply, like ultra slow control decks that aim to play through almost all their cards sometimes run a single copy of their win condition, but this is an advanced-level deck building concern.
For some ideas, i recommend looking through the "esper master transmuter" link in my signature, it's this exact same idea but more streamlined. Note that i do run singletons of my big sphinxes, but that's because i have 8 ways to search for them: 4 sphinx summoner and 4 fabricate.
As someone with a bant exalted deck, I can tell you that spot removal and mass removal will crush you into bits, since the exalted mechanic requires synergy of multiple creatures staying alive, and encourages you to dump your hand onto the battlefield and provoke an enemy into casting Wrath of God. I'm trying to solve that problem myself, still haven't gotten it figured out. I'm thinking Mother of Runes and 1-mana white protection spells like Brave the Elements or Emerge Unscathed to protect against spot removal, trying to survive Wraths with indestructable threats like Fleecemane Lion or threats that are just beefier or self-buff like Knight of the Reliquary or Scavenging Ooze and don't require you to dump your entire hand onto the table, so you're not so vulnerable to Wrath.
As a green deck in multiplayer I really wish I could recommend Lurking Predators to you, but I don't think your low land-count can support it, and you're not running any acceleration. Maybe Collected Company instead? You've got a bunch of little dudes, it would be sweet to be able to just blast a bunch of them out of your library like Elf decks do. Genesis Wave would be super slick, but I think it would be even harder for you to cast than Lurking Predators.
So I've had this bant exalted deck since I started playing in Alara block. It hits hard and fast, but it's soooo binary: either I'm playing against a newer player without any interaction in their decks, and it blows them right out of the game with trample/unblockable + double strike, or I'm playing against a deck with interaction and none of these cards are really good on their own, and I don't do anything. Neither of these results are very satisfying.
I'm aiming to make a deck that wins a bit slower but more securely, a deck that doesn't fold to interaction, and a deck where individual cards are good on their own. This deck has to include Rafiq of the Many, even though he perfectly embodies the "dies to removal, promotes cute but bad synergies" problem I'm having. Rafiq and I have seven years together, and I will not abandon him and his glorious win-more shenanigans.
So first, please understand that I bought Noble Hierarch when it first came out, and the price wasn't so absurd (got them for $5 a piece). I'm under a moderate budget, hence the lack of real fetchlands.
Defense of sub-par / unorthodox choices:
- Fleecemane Lion - This is the one I'm most unsure of. I don't have money for Tarmogoyf or Voice, and Ooze wouldn't have many targets in my casual meta (no graveyard or delve decks), so I'm thinking Lion would be a good stand-alone beater. Along with Gavony Township, Lion gives me an outlet for extra mana from the mana dorks. I'm definitely open to alternative 2-drops though if Fleecemane isn't a good choice.
- Rafiq of the Many - He is my #1 pet card, so he has to stay. He's powerful, but vulnerable, but I'm willing to live with that for my beloved Rafiq.
- Emerge Unscathed - I'm choosing this over Brave the Elements because of exalted. The first time around it either counters removal, enables a chump block, or provides an unblockable exalted attack, and the second time around it sets up another unblockable exalted attack, maybe winning the game. If this wasn't exalted and wanted to attack with several creatures, Brave the Elements would be better, but I like Emerge with exalted. Sound good, or bad idea?
- Finest Hour - This is a concession to Rafiq being legendary. I want to run 4x Rafiq but that's just silly. Finest Hour is Rafiq #4, and the extra mana isn't too hard to hit with all the mana dorks. Finest is also harder to remove than Rafiq and usually allows for bigger attacks, since exalted re-triggers on the second combat phase.
- Terramorphic Expanse / Evolving Wilds - I wish I could afford proper fetchlands, but I can't. I work as a waiter in a restaurant, and Spring and Summer are our slow times, so my income is neutered right now. These weak fetchlands still power up the Knight though, and I'm hoping the presence of 8x mana dorks can mitigate the slowness of tapped lands.
How does this look? I'm aiming for midrange, with some good staying power that won't completely fall apart against interaction. I'm worried that perhaps I erred too hard on the side of caution with this list, but I keep reminding myself the Mother of Runes and Emerge Unscathed also provide unblockable to my exalted attacker, so I think I can still break through stalled game states for the win when necessary.
edit: Realised I only really use G or W in the first few turns, so I don't need the flexibility of the tapland. -4 Seaside Citadel, +2 Forest, +2 Plains.
I'm asking about decks that reverse the late-game and early-game strategies of your Tier 1 choices (I can't imagine they'll still be Tier 1 afterward, but I'm still interested in their merits). To make it more clear, I'm going to replace the hyphens with arrows, showing the flow of time from one strategy in the early game, to the strategy that ends the game. Take, for example, the Control-Combo deck you put in Tier 1, and let's rename it as "Control->Combo" to clarify that it begins by slowing the game down with Control elements, while assembling the pieces of a Combo finish.
I'm interested in decks that reverse this, so let's consider "Combo->Control", a deck that assembles early Combo pieces with the aim to assemble an immovable object of sorts, a hard Control finish. I think Tron would be a good example of this in the 1v1 scene; it requires Maps and Chromatic artifacts to be assembled in order to present a nearly unassailable Control finish. I tried something similar with my Master Transmuter deck, it uses 2 or 3 pieces (Master Transmuter, Thousand-Year Elixir, and depending on luck, Sphinx Summoner) to find, and then to protect and reuse, some soft control elements (spot removal and board wipe).
So I guess the question can be distilled down to this: Given that combo finishes are so strong in multiplayer, can other styles of finishing the game be strong as well, if they are given sufficient speed and power by leveraging a value combo engine to fulfil their goals?
There's just nothing I've found that does the same "I'm going to vomit more power and toughness than you can possibly handle" effect like Lurking Predators and Genesis Wave. Tooth and Nail takes the edge in consistency, but I think Genesis Wave wins out over-all for raw power.
lol, buckle up guys, here we go again!
It's definitely the optimal strategy to go with a combo finish in multiplayer, no matter the archetype, so I definitely agree with the Tier 1 list here. I was wondering, what do you think about the opposite sort of decks? Let me explain. So here you've (rightly, I think) identified the definitive multiplayer strategy as decks that aim for a combo finish, and the flavors within that archetype are defined by where they fall on the 3 axises of speed (pure combo), resiliency (midrange combo), and interactiveness (control combo). I'm curious about decks that aim for either a finish defined as midrange (superior board presence, value, interaction) or defined as control (card advantage, interaction, inevitability), but that accomplish these goals through powerful combo elements.
I think you've hinted at an answer - that they're Tier 2 or 3 - by the placement of Ramp, as Ramp is probably the most well-known Combo-Midrange deck. As for an example of Combo-Control, it would probably be something like a Miracles deck or an Isochron Scepter deck, but I don't think any amount of extra power from leveraging combo pieces is going to prop up a deck with "inevitability via overwhelming number of answers" in a format with, as you put it, so many "questions". I guess there's a second question to be asked here: is Combo-Control possible, is there a conceivable arrangement of combo pieces to make "answers and card advantage" viable, or is Control-Combo so vastly superior? I think I know the answer already.
Oh god you're telling me. I very rarely play Magic sober, so things can get very ugly/hilarious when I bring out Doomsday. "Okay, so sac both lands, play Dark Ritual [...] draw the last four cards in my library, spend the last floating 3 black for Laboratory Maniac and... wait... crap..."
In 1v1 duels, the broad archetypes are well-understood and there's a wealth of information regarding their form and function. You know these broad archetypes well, I'm sure: aggro, tempo, control, midrange, and combo.
In multiplayer, a few of these archetypes lose their luster and disappear from comprehensive metagames. Aggro is nowhere to be found at most 4+ player tables, and tempo might be even worse off. Control is forced to undergo drastic changes, as spot removal and 1-for-1 answers don't have much of an impact against multiple opponents. These changes are enough to make most decks that aim to be a control strategy actually behave more like midrange than anything else; after all, an empty board is a huge liability in multiplayer.
So in my experience, multiplayer Magic is the bastion of midrange and combo. With only 2/5ths of the diversity of archetypes when compared to 1v1, it makes sense to look closer at midrange and its various flavors, for within them lies the diversity of the format, I think.
Help me compile some multiplayer broad archetypes. Please don't be specific, be as general as possible.
Some successful archetypes that come to mind:
Prison
Ramp
Toolbox
Reanimator
Tokens and Go Wide strategies (is this the format's aggro, or just another flavor of combo?)
Classic Midrange (board presence and board control focused)
Creature-based Combo
Storm-like Combo / Spellslinger
Traditional Tutor-based, 2-card Combo
ect.
What are your thoughts on the broad archetypes and pillars of the multiplayer format?
However, the difference here, I believe, is that Looter can be activated every turn, whereas Brainstorm is obviously a finite resource and you want to get max value out of your one use of it.
Here's the plan:
1 mountain
4 kessig wolf run
2 nykthos, shrine to nyx
2 genesis wave
4 sakura-tribe elder
4 axebane guardian
4 overgrown battlement
4 sylvan primordial
4 pelakka wurm
4 hornet queen
2 worldspine wurm
So the lands and ramp creatures shell is almost identical to my old Lurking Predators deck, so I know it works super well. Obviously Prime Time and Sylvanfather are primo multiplayer workhorses, and Lurking out a Worldspine can't be a bad idea no matter how you spin it. I'm a little unsure about Pelakka Wurm and Hornet Queen though. I think they are good, but if you can't tell, I'm a bit hyped about this revamp, and I worry the hype may be clouding my judgement.
Pelakka is here because I want a fatter, more offensive Thragtusk. He gains you life, hits hard, replaces himself, and tramples where Thrag can't: this deck isn't looking to stall. This is a green mage's Thragtusk. I'm pretty sure Thraggy is white under all that fur for all the blocking he does. Pelakka is coming for your booty, whereas Thragtusk just gets in your way a little.
Hornet Queen was originally Tornado Elemental and either one accomplishes the same goal: ward off or kill enemy dragons. In my metagame, if you're not going over the top or dropping noncreature combos, you're swinging with big fat fliers. Except now, you're swinging them at other people, because I have 5 flying blockers with deathtouch. Also, it's one card that attacks as 5 separate creatures, and Kessig Wolf Run makes any of them brutal if you decide that losing 5 cards to chump block my 1 card isn't a great deal. Hey, I think I just talked myself out of my apprehension, this card is nuts.
If you're curious, here's the resiliency-focused Lurking Predators list I currently run:
1 mountain
4 kessig wolf run
2 nykthos, shrine to nyx
4 loxodon warhammer
4 sakura-tribe elder
4 axebane guardian
4 overgrown battlement
4 penumbra wurm
4 spearbreaker behemoth
4 soul of the harvest
What do you think guys? I'm sure it could use some tweaks!
Thanks for your time!
edit: I'd like to thank Prid3 for coining "Sylvanfather"
Warning for Trolling.
Editing the moderated part of a post violates the forum rules. Strike-through removed. No warning since the text was left fully intact.
-ThatRedwood
Sorry guys, not sure how I thought this was appropriate when I wrote it.
What exactly is your plan with this deck? Is it aiming to drop an early big creature and ride it to victory? Or is it to assemble a combo and win off of that? Or something else? Name a very precise game plan, then ask yourself how each card contributes to that plan. If your justifications for any card seem shaky or if the card requires a specific scenario to be justifiable, omit it.
Generally the rule of thumb for how many multiples of cards you want goes like this:
4x - your best cards, the ones you always want to see every game and don't mind drawing multiples of
3x - cards you'd like to see every game but either they aren't good in multiples or you don't want to get them in your opening hand
2x - cards that definitely aren't good in multiples, and you don't care if they don't always show up every game
1x - you better have a way to search for it, because the odds of drawing it are really low, or else you'd be better off omitting it
Obviously some exceptions apply, like ultra slow control decks that aim to play through almost all their cards sometimes run a single copy of their win condition, but this is an advanced-level deck building concern.
For some ideas, i recommend looking through the "esper master transmuter" link in my signature, it's this exact same idea but more streamlined. Note that i do run singletons of my big sphinxes, but that's because i have 8 ways to search for them: 4 sphinx summoner and 4 fabricate.
As a green deck in multiplayer I really wish I could recommend Lurking Predators to you, but I don't think your low land-count can support it, and you're not running any acceleration. Maybe Collected Company instead? You've got a bunch of little dudes, it would be sweet to be able to just blast a bunch of them out of your library like Elf decks do. Genesis Wave would be super slick, but I think it would be even harder for you to cast than Lurking Predators.
So yeah, I'd say if you want a few more non-creature spells, check out:
3x Collected Company
4x Brave the Elements / Emerge Unscathed
Note that protection doesn't help against Wrath though.
I'm aiming to make a deck that wins a bit slower but more securely, a deck that doesn't fold to interaction, and a deck where individual cards are good on their own. This deck has to include Rafiq of the Many, even though he perfectly embodies the "dies to removal, promotes cute but bad synergies" problem I'm having. Rafiq and I have seven years together, and I will not abandon him and his glorious win-more shenanigans.
So here is my revised attempt at bant exalted:
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Mother of Runes
4 Fleecemane Lion
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Rhox War Monk
3 Rafiq of the Many
4 Emerge Unscathed
1 Finest Hour
4 Terramorphic Expanse
4 Evolving Wilds
5 Forest
5 Plains
1 Island
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Gavony Township
1 Cathedral of War
So first, please understand that I bought Noble Hierarch when it first came out, and the price wasn't so absurd (got them for $5 a piece). I'm under a moderate budget, hence the lack of real fetchlands.
Defense of sub-par / unorthodox choices:
- Fleecemane Lion - This is the one I'm most unsure of. I don't have money for Tarmogoyf or Voice, and Ooze wouldn't have many targets in my casual meta (no graveyard or delve decks), so I'm thinking Lion would be a good stand-alone beater. Along with Gavony Township, Lion gives me an outlet for extra mana from the mana dorks. I'm definitely open to alternative 2-drops though if Fleecemane isn't a good choice.
- Rafiq of the Many - He is my #1 pet card, so he has to stay. He's powerful, but vulnerable, but I'm willing to live with that for my beloved Rafiq.
- Emerge Unscathed - I'm choosing this over Brave the Elements because of exalted. The first time around it either counters removal, enables a chump block, or provides an unblockable exalted attack, and the second time around it sets up another unblockable exalted attack, maybe winning the game. If this wasn't exalted and wanted to attack with several creatures, Brave the Elements would be better, but I like Emerge with exalted. Sound good, or bad idea?
- Finest Hour - This is a concession to Rafiq being legendary. I want to run 4x Rafiq but that's just silly. Finest Hour is Rafiq #4, and the extra mana isn't too hard to hit with all the mana dorks. Finest is also harder to remove than Rafiq and usually allows for bigger attacks, since exalted re-triggers on the second combat phase.
- Terramorphic Expanse / Evolving Wilds - I wish I could afford proper fetchlands, but I can't. I work as a waiter in a restaurant, and Spring and Summer are our slow times, so my income is neutered right now. These weak fetchlands still power up the Knight though, and I'm hoping the presence of 8x mana dorks can mitigate the slowness of tapped lands.
How does this look? I'm aiming for midrange, with some good staying power that won't completely fall apart against interaction. I'm worried that perhaps I erred too hard on the side of caution with this list, but I keep reminding myself the Mother of Runes and Emerge Unscathed also provide unblockable to my exalted attacker, so I think I can still break through stalled game states for the win when necessary.
edit: Realised I only really use G or W in the first few turns, so I don't need the flexibility of the tapland. -4 Seaside Citadel, +2 Forest, +2 Plains.