Trample is huge, but I agree that blood rush can be very limiting. I've been thinking of running 3 of each, but I'm worried that I could end up with too many cards requiring a body. I may playtest 2 ghor / 2 growth to start.
I can't say that I've play-tested it, but I actually like the idea of Gift of Orhzov. The casting cost is much less restrictive, and it has the potential to make an immediate board impact / life total impact.
I really like the look of that list. You make great points on the crawlers, and it also goes quite well with Rancor as being something else that bounces back to the field.
You should try playtesting Increasing Savagery in the Deadbridge slot. You may decide you hate it, but it makes an instant board impact and makes even an Arbor Elf a major threat. It's also a beast on anything with a rancor, turns mana flooding into an advantage, and is basically game over on an Ooze or if you can use Garruk's draw ability after it resolves (or a turn later if it sticks). Downsides of course are that it's a dead card without a creature in play, two-for-one risk (except mostly on the Troll or Ooze), and you can't chuck it to the Troll.
Is there any prevailing reason some people are choosing the Flunkies over Gore-House Chainwalker in these lists? Gore still evolves a 2/2 Experiment with Unleash, still combos off of BTE, and as a bonus it's also a human so it has synergy with Falkenrath Aristocrat. Personally, I'm going to look at running these instead.
The problem with Mauler is that you really want 3 power at the 2 drop slot, or barring that, undying. A 2-1 just isn't going to punch through much.
Yep, and Geist just doesn't play well with BTE.
To me it seems like you either drop BTE and run Geist, or run BTE and suck it up on possibly getting Flunkie'd / go Mauler and hope you never have to drop it any time but t2.
What about just going with Lightning Maulers over Flunkies?
Yes, I realize the mass majority of the deck has haste, so what's the point? However, turn 2 BTE + Mauler = 4 to the face. You can also use Mauler's to haste up the Cacklers, Experiment One, and Boar if you're down a red. It also gives you a late(r) game option to possibly bond with a Ghor played as a creature. Lastly, it's a human you can sac up to Aristocrat...
What do you think about running Dreadbore's in main instead of slips? I feel like it's hard to give up instant speed, but Dreadbore's really do cover everything Abrupt can't take out. Well, except Predator Ooze and the like.
Wow -- that list is something very similar to what I was talking about putting together earlier in the thread. For me, I intend to run stomping grounds and crags instead of summits and crypts to have more of green trend. I'm running 4 geists and 4 ooze, so the G sources are way more important to me.
I really like it as a concept, because the Aristocrats give us better reach and help us where we're weak in the air. I'm not sure how I feel about Dreadbore MB. I'd probably sideboard it if using it at all. I also wonder about trying out ExpOne here. It's tough, because the one drop choices are all so good. ExpOne will evolve on everything in the entire list by the Ooze, but I'm not sure if the loss of ramp with Arbor Elf is worth it.
Also in my testing, because I'm running 4 geists and 4 ooze, Nighthawk is too inconsistent for me. Until I'm willing to dump the Geists and Ooze, and run 4 Nighthawks and go more pure midrange, he's out of my build and Essence Harvest is back in SB.
I feel like a red splash for Pillar, Dreadbore, and Skullcrack would be nice. Pillar kills enemy Strangleroots, and Skullcrack and Dreadbore improve the matches against Thragtusk, Sphinx Revelation, and Planeswalkers.
I'm also tempted to do this as well. I think aside from Boros Reckoner, the best GTC introduced was manabase, it's making me think to splash red for what you mentioned, as well as Falkenrath Aristocrat, and possibly Slaughtergames in SB.
I also don't disagree with the blue splash ideas, but it just so happens that I already have the R/G and B/R manabase, and would need to spend more to get G/U or B/U, so I may try the other path first and see how it pans in the meta.
Slater -- Yeah, Tracker counts as removal in my build.
I just really need to suck it up and go get a playset of Shaman's. I've only got one, and have had a lot of trouble justifying the cost to pick up any more.
I'm very curious to hear about little Garruk results as well. If you're relying on him to tutor at all, I think I'd be tempted to run more one-of utility drops -- like just 1 Silverheart, 1 Nighthawk, 1 Tracker, etc.
Interesting. I find that virtually any time I drop a 2nd turn troll, it's toast before my next turn (in some cases unless I'm willing to discard 2-3 cards). I've tended to treat them more as a 3-drop. With an Arbor Elf on the board, I'll also play a T2 Geist + Rancor / Tracker over a Mangler. I feel like the only time Geist is clogging my hand is in the rare situation where I have T1 Arbor, and T2 nothing to play but the choice between solo Geist drop or Predator Ooze. Wolfir Avenger, on the other hand, seemed to always clog my hand unless I could chuck him to a Troll.
That said, I'm still very tempted to give Grisly a shot. I feel like it helps find Nighthawks or removal against aggro, and extra threats against control. In this case, Geist would probably the lowest on my list of creature picks, and has no impact in the graveyard aside from Deathrite (which again favors your list more).
Have you ever thought about Treasured Find? It has a ton of synergy with Grisly, and the troll. Too bad it's not an instant!
PS -- Funny that you mention splashing a 3rd color. I'm tinkering with a Gruul deck on the side, so I already acquired the manabase for G/R and have strongly been considering more of a haste-geared version that splashes red for Falkenrath Aristocrat. Sure would cover our issue in the sky! Problem is, there's not much more I think I care to add MB other than Aristocrat, everything else I can think of more belongs SB, like Rakdos Return, Slaughtergames, Skullcrack, Gruul charm (> crushing vines?).
I found Essence Harvest to be more of an SB card. It flat out won me a few games, but it always requires a body and sometimes isn't useful whatsoever. I'm now testing 2 Nighthawk's in its place. I think Nighthawk will serve to provide the kind of bufferzone I was looking for, and also add a bit more reach and have an added bonus of covering the sky where we're weak.
I also pulled Revenge. I found it personally to be too inconsistent and kind of a win-more card. Any time I pulled it in an opener I'd groan and roll my eyes, and even in miracle situations it was sometimes either not very useful (post boardwipe, on the draw, etc) or overkill.
I pulled these for an extra abrupt and troll. With the creature count up at 25, I'm much more happy with more trolls, and I've found them to be completely indispensable against some of the Gruul / sligh decks running about. I don't feel the need to justify abrupt at all, I feel like it may be hands down the best removal in standard right now.
I don't disagree with your decision to pull Geist from MB, but I'm leaving him put for now. I like him filling extra 2 drop slots, and feel like the 3 slot would be too overloaded if I add anything else to it, and against decks running pillar I just side him out. More often than not, he still pushes 2/4 (rancor) through even when he gets exiled a turn later, so I'm generally still happy to have him.
I'm still happy with the allure's at the moment. It's just such a threat with trample or the tracker's, and I expect it to get even better with Nighthawks.
Silverfir I'm hestiant about. He's provided me the reach to win games on many occasions, and again with the Nighthawks he should only get better, but as a 1-of he's very inconsistent in I think a standard that's going to really reward consistency, and sometimes he ends up being a combat trick used against me. If I was running Grisly Salvage like you, him as a 1-of makes more sense. I may try to see if I can sneak in 2 of those myself. It's just so strong with flashback, scavenge, and just digging for a game winner on a stalled board in general, and in your case has even more synergy feeding Deathrite's.
You already know what I'm going to say... I'm a massive fan of the tracker. I still run 3 mainboard and have still had major success with them. At worst they keep removal off my bigger dudes, at best they're removal on a stick. Thing is, with 4x Nighthawk's in main, they arguably have even more synergy in your deck than mine!
I'm totally with you on Abrupt Decay, though. That card is a freaking beast. I'm retooling tonight to add 3 mainboard, and I'll probably still run a 4th in the sideboard. I think it's just hands down the best G/b removal option available right now.
I've been theory-crafting this style of deck as well, and I'm thinking to heck with the green.
Like OP has already mentioned:
4x Blood Artist
4x Ravenous Rats
2/3x Bloodthrone Vampires
2/3x Immortal Servitude
But personally, I'm thinking a massive defense wall and drain to the ceiling:
2/3x Cartel Aristocrat
3x Shadow Alley Denizen
4x Syndic of Tithes
2/3x Human Priest of Penance
4x Lingering Souls (2 1/1 flyers with a 2 cost flashback?!)
2/3x Blind Obedience
2x Desecration Demon
2/3x Mutilate
2x faith's reward
2x random removal...
So basically you have a farm of 2 drops, that Immortal Servitude or faith can resurrect, play the slow drain / creature control game with all your extorts, blind obedience, and blood artist, and possible win cons with any blood artist in play ever with mutilate (esp with faith's reward or immortal serv to back it), and also Cartel + sac or Bloodthrone + Shadow Alley + sac.
We've got tons of low-cast annoying chump drops (have considered doomed traveler strongly for this purpose as well), blood artist and extort which backs them up for drain and stall, and Cartel and Bloodthrone as sac outlets and possible win cons.
What's your thoughts on Hellrider? With the two-red, I think I'd rather run 4 Ghor's.
You should try playtesting Increasing Savagery in the Deadbridge slot. You may decide you hate it, but it makes an instant board impact and makes even an Arbor Elf a major threat. It's also a beast on anything with a rancor, turns mana flooding into an advantage, and is basically game over on an Ooze or if you can use Garruk's draw ability after it resolves (or a turn later if it sticks). Downsides of course are that it's a dead card without a creature in play, two-for-one risk (except mostly on the Troll or Ooze), and you can't chuck it to the Troll.
Yep, and Geist just doesn't play well with BTE.
To me it seems like you either drop BTE and run Geist, or run BTE and suck it up on possibly getting Flunkie'd / go Mauler and hope you never have to drop it any time but t2.
Yes, I realize the mass majority of the deck has haste, so what's the point? However, turn 2 BTE + Mauler = 4 to the face. You can also use Mauler's to haste up the Cacklers, Experiment One, and Boar if you're down a red. It also gives you a late(r) game option to possibly bond with a Ghor played as a creature. Lastly, it's a human you can sac up to Aristocrat...
I really like it as a concept, because the Aristocrats give us better reach and help us where we're weak in the air. I'm not sure how I feel about Dreadbore MB. I'd probably sideboard it if using it at all. I also wonder about trying out ExpOne here. It's tough, because the one drop choices are all so good. ExpOne will evolve on everything in the entire list by the Ooze, but I'm not sure if the loss of ramp with Arbor Elf is worth it.
Also in my testing, because I'm running 4 geists and 4 ooze, Nighthawk is too inconsistent for me. Until I'm willing to dump the Geists and Ooze, and run 4 Nighthawks and go more pure midrange, he's out of my build and Essence Harvest is back in SB.
I'm also tempted to do this as well. I think aside from Boros Reckoner, the best GTC introduced was manabase, it's making me think to splash red for what you mentioned, as well as Falkenrath Aristocrat, and possibly Slaughtergames in SB.
I also don't disagree with the blue splash ideas, but it just so happens that I already have the R/G and B/R manabase, and would need to spend more to get G/U or B/U, so I may try the other path first and see how it pans in the meta.
I just really need to suck it up and go get a playset of Shaman's. I've only got one, and have had a lot of trouble justifying the cost to pick up any more.
I'm very curious to hear about little Garruk results as well. If you're relying on him to tutor at all, I think I'd be tempted to run more one-of utility drops -- like just 1 Silverheart, 1 Nighthawk, 1 Tracker, etc.
That said, I'm still very tempted to give Grisly a shot. I feel like it helps find Nighthawks or removal against aggro, and extra threats against control. In this case, Geist would probably the lowest on my list of creature picks, and has no impact in the graveyard aside from Deathrite (which again favors your list more).
Have you ever thought about Treasured Find? It has a ton of synergy with Grisly, and the troll. Too bad it's not an instant!
PS -- Funny that you mention splashing a 3rd color. I'm tinkering with a Gruul deck on the side, so I already acquired the manabase for G/R and have strongly been considering more of a haste-geared version that splashes red for Falkenrath Aristocrat. Sure would cover our issue in the sky! Problem is, there's not much more I think I care to add MB other than Aristocrat, everything else I can think of more belongs SB, like Rakdos Return, Slaughtergames, Skullcrack, Gruul charm (> crushing vines?).
I'm playtesting this at the moment:
4x Arbor Elf
3x Ulvenwald Tracker
4x Strangleroot Geist
3x Lotleth Troll
4x Predator Ooze
4x Dreg Mangler
2x Vampire Nighthawk
1x Wolfir Silverheart
4x Rancor
Spells - 8
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Deadly Allure
1x Tragic Slip
2x Increasing Savagery
Land - 23
4x Overgrown Tomb
4x Woodland Cemetery
3x Golgari Guildgate
1x Evolving Wilds
9x Forest
2x Swamp
I found Essence Harvest to be more of an SB card. It flat out won me a few games, but it always requires a body and sometimes isn't useful whatsoever. I'm now testing 2 Nighthawk's in its place. I think Nighthawk will serve to provide the kind of bufferzone I was looking for, and also add a bit more reach and have an added bonus of covering the sky where we're weak.
I also pulled Revenge. I found it personally to be too inconsistent and kind of a win-more card. Any time I pulled it in an opener I'd groan and roll my eyes, and even in miracle situations it was sometimes either not very useful (post boardwipe, on the draw, etc) or overkill.
I pulled these for an extra abrupt and troll. With the creature count up at 25, I'm much more happy with more trolls, and I've found them to be completely indispensable against some of the Gruul / sligh decks running about. I don't feel the need to justify abrupt at all, I feel like it may be hands down the best removal in standard right now.
I don't disagree with your decision to pull Geist from MB, but I'm leaving him put for now. I like him filling extra 2 drop slots, and feel like the 3 slot would be too overloaded if I add anything else to it, and against decks running pillar I just side him out. More often than not, he still pushes 2/4 (rancor) through even when he gets exiled a turn later, so I'm generally still happy to have him.
I'm still happy with the allure's at the moment. It's just such a threat with trample or the tracker's, and I expect it to get even better with Nighthawks.
Silverfir I'm hestiant about. He's provided me the reach to win games on many occasions, and again with the Nighthawks he should only get better, but as a 1-of he's very inconsistent in I think a standard that's going to really reward consistency, and sometimes he ends up being a combat trick used against me. If I was running Grisly Salvage like you, him as a 1-of makes more sense. I may try to see if I can sneak in 2 of those myself. It's just so strong with flashback, scavenge, and just digging for a game winner on a stalled board in general, and in your case has even more synergy feeding Deathrite's.
I'm totally with you on Abrupt Decay, though. That card is a freaking beast. I'm retooling tonight to add 3 mainboard, and I'll probably still run a 4th in the sideboard. I think it's just hands down the best G/b removal option available right now.
Yes! This to infinity!
I've been theory-crafting this style of deck as well, and I'm thinking to heck with the green.
Like OP has already mentioned:
4x Blood Artist
4x Ravenous Rats
2/3x Bloodthrone Vampires
2/3x Immortal Servitude
But personally, I'm thinking a massive defense wall and drain to the ceiling:
2/3x Cartel Aristocrat
3x Shadow Alley Denizen
4x Syndic of Tithes
2/3x Human Priest of Penance
4x Lingering Souls (2 1/1 flyers with a 2 cost flashback?!)
2/3x Blind Obedience
2x Desecration Demon
2/3x Mutilate
2x faith's reward
2x random removal...
So basically you have a farm of 2 drops, that Immortal Servitude or faith can resurrect, play the slow drain / creature control game with all your extorts, blind obedience, and blood artist, and possible win cons with any blood artist in play ever with mutilate (esp with faith's reward or immortal serv to back it), and also Cartel + sac or Bloodthrone + Shadow Alley + sac.
We've got tons of low-cast annoying chump drops (have considered doomed traveler strongly for this purpose as well), blood artist and extort which backs them up for drain and stall, and Cartel and Bloodthrone as sac outlets and possible win cons.
Personally, I think it's got potential.