Going to type this response in order to the questions.
Yes I played in SCGATL I ended up 5-4.
3 of the 4 losses were to missing land drops in game 3..Where I either had to mull to 6, or kept a 7 with two lands and didn’t draw lands 3-5 until it was too late.
R1: L vs GR Ramp - lost in G3 to a top deck world breaker, it was his only out I had lethal next turn.
R2: W vs GR Ramp - lost game 1, games 2-3 I was discarding his hand pretty heavily.
R3: W vs BW Eldrazi
R4: W vs Mirror - Opponent was playing Firecraft, I was playing Pia..Pia was a house.
R5: W vs GR Midrange
R6: L vs Abzan - mull to 5, kept a 1 lander never really got there.
R7: L vs Grixis Control - Close match, needed a threat in game 3 but never drew one
R8 - W vs Abzan - outpost siege real good
R9 - L vs Mono W
The “core of the deck” was fine. As much I hate being one of those people that blames variance, it just wasn’t on my side that day, which is fine, this is Magic after all!
My experience with the 7 1 drops is that they are just not impactful enough without pump spells. They are terrible top decks, and pretty bad vs abzan who is heading in the direction of main decking Sylvan Advocate. Also, when you play 1 drops, you really shouldn't play more than 2-3 kolaghan, or even dark dwellers for that matter.
I have hated hordeling outburst as a card ever since Stoke the Flames rotation, however, I found myself needing to draw another threat or having opening hands that were threat light… So I may be forced to play the card. I have an IQ on Sunday and will most likely be running BR dragons back depending on how FNM goes.
K Command is one of those cards that is usually good all the time. It’s weak in the Abzan matchup, but its another shock/discard in the aggro matchup, and the discard is good vs ramp in G1. I used to think I’d never play it, but I think 3 copies is fine, even 1 copy is fine… The card is good. Sure it can’t “kill” a pumped up warden, mantis rider, knuckle blade (do people even play this card?) and anafenza…but you have upwards of 11 different MD kill spells that do that. People also forget the regrow ability of the card. make you discard return my Dragon/GDD is a pretty big tempo play.
I don’t like fire craft, it’s slow, and the 3 cmc is a big deal. Often times this deck is capable of two plays a turn, and fire craft really inhibits the chances of doing that.
Grasp vs Roast is a close debate, I don’t think you can say one is strictly better than the other. However, killing Wingmate roc in game is a huge plus for Grasp, it’s arguably the best card against us. Yes it doesn’t kill rhino in G1, but you still have other ways to combine two spells for that.
Playing main deck duress means you need more black sources, so I can see the potential for Grasp being good. I don’t think one is strictly more correct than the other, certainly warrants testing.
Currently my list for IQ looks something like this: (subject to change throughout the week)
I lost my win and in for day 2 (actually all my losses) were to never drawing a 4th land in all game 3s.
Some things: Dark Dwellers is great, however, its not THAT great MD in Game 1. It's significantly better in postboard games where you want to loop k command (if you run them) or discard spells.
DO NOT RUN LESS THAN 3 KOLAGHAN. This card puts you significantly ahead of most midrange decks in G1 and improves value of Draconic Roar in G1... I ran a 3/2 of kolaghan and dark dweller, and I will be going to a 4-1 split with a 2nd GDD in the side for postboard games. Often times with this deck in post board games where you have the opponent low, all you need is a top deck kolaghan and you will win.
Firecraft is not a good card in this shell without playing 7 1 drops. If you want to play it, add the 1 drops. Play Roast, Kcommand or Grasp in some number. You will need the kill spells, and paying 3 mana to kill an anafenza feels pretty awful.
Cutting murderous cut from the main is just insane. It's your best removal spell vs rally, GR Ramp and Abzan in game 1....
GR Ramp seems 50/50, and rally seems 60/40 in their favor.. I am having issues coming up with the best strategy for the rally matchup. Any suggestions?
Final few SB slots could either be: Hooting Mandrils (really not sure what matchup id want this for), Thunderbreak, Flamewake, or Exquisite Firecraft.
Thanks. I don't think you want Outpost Siege anymore. The only matchup I could see drawing extra being worth 2 SB slots is MAYBE the rally matchup, but even then, you are better off trying to win with the combo.
I have thought about playing 2 firecraft for the final 2 slots, but it's possible heelcutter is better there (too early to tell whats better vs abzan/ramp/jeskai this early on). I think if you want to play 4 Fiery Impulse, you just play a 3/2 split between it and wild slash in the MD. Wild Slash gets the nod from me because of its ability to trigger bushwacker on an empty board if need be.
As far as surge is concerned it's achievable I would say 85% of the time. And when bushwacker is bad... you are probably already losing. Bushwacker is nice because when you have 4 lands, you are able to do some pretty explosive turns, fodder into surge, command into surge, abbot into surge etc.
GR Ramp seems 50/50, and rally seems 60/40 in their favor.. I am having issues coming up with the best strategy for the rally matchup. Any suggestions?
Final few SB slots could either be: Hooting Mandrils (really not sure what matchup id want this for), Thunderbreak, Flamewake, or Exquisite Firecraft.
From my testing, I really want to be proactive while obtaining 2 for 1s if possible. I like all the removal to handle any aggro decks, and post-board, Dark Dwellers helps me loop loop back important SB cards for the matchup.
When did Caleb recommend going up to 19 lands? 18 has always felt fine to me (you can cut a tarn for this-i'd still play darkslick)...sure there are games you might get stuck without a 3 land for a while, but thats just magic. I feel that when I have 19 lands I actually end up with 4+ in too many games.
I agree that it's possible the 3rd terminate should just be a murderous cut. The matches where murderous cut is good, the games tend to longer, therefore it's not quite as taxing on your graveyard... not to mention it's an oh ***** button that won't trigger a late eidolon vs your worst matchup in burn.
I have never been a big fan of electrolyze, lingering souls decks should be fairly good match ups g1, and if you expect tokens to become popular, wouldn't a spell pierce or even a 2nd forked bolt be better here?
SB seems mostly fine... I don't see the reason for having the 4th (or even 3rd terminate) using up a spot. The sb forked bolt should either be another coutner (deprive maybe?), or magma spray (Finks is the biggest problem for the deck IMO). 2 Negate seems a bit much, probably want another Recall for the affinity match ups because it is literally game ending.
I think you guys are seriously under estimating the power level of the Abzan Midrange and Jeskai decks.
Complete disregard? That card is terrible.
No Abbot? Have you played with the card?
Snapping Gnarlid? A card that is infinitely chump blockable and provides no value late game.
Bottom line is that this deck needs a 1 drop as consistently as possible. As you are trying to create the most powerful game 1 deck possible. You also need late game staying power and value, which is wear Abbot comes in.
I agree that 20 lands MIGHT be too many. I have found that I really like hitting my land drop every turn, when it gets to a point where I am able to do two things a turn I am pretty far ahead. Luckily, 2 of the lands are cycle lands which have been nice when digging for a combo piece. I could see cutting the temple.
I love this deck so far, especially with the creature heavy meta.
Last night, I had a power artifact + grim monolith + cunning wish + banefire kill as well as a rings/basalt + stroke of genius victory. It felt good.
This deck is very powerful, and I suggest people try it out!
Reflector Mage says hey.
Yes I played in SCGATL I ended up 5-4.
3 of the 4 losses were to missing land drops in game 3..Where I either had to mull to 6, or kept a 7 with two lands and didn’t draw lands 3-5 until it was too late.
R1: L vs GR Ramp - lost in G3 to a top deck world breaker, it was his only out I had lethal next turn.
R2: W vs GR Ramp - lost game 1, games 2-3 I was discarding his hand pretty heavily.
R3: W vs BW Eldrazi
R4: W vs Mirror - Opponent was playing Firecraft, I was playing Pia..Pia was a house.
R5: W vs GR Midrange
R6: L vs Abzan - mull to 5, kept a 1 lander never really got there.
R7: L vs Grixis Control - Close match, needed a threat in game 3 but never drew one
R8 - W vs Abzan - outpost siege real good
R9 - L vs Mono W
This was my decklist:
4 Flamewake
4 Thunderbreak
3 Kolaghan
2 Goblin Dark Dwellers
1 Ruinous Path
4 Fiery Impulse
4 Draconic Roar
3 Murderous Cut
2 K-Command
8 Mountain
1 Swamp
11 Fetches
3 Smodlering Marsh
2 Haven
1 Roast
2 Self Inflicted Wound
3 Duress
4 Transgress the Mind
1 Kalitas
1 Outpostsiege
1 Ob NIx
2 Act of Treason
The “core of the deck” was fine. As much I hate being one of those people that blames variance, it just wasn’t on my side that day, which is fine, this is Magic after all!
My experience with the 7 1 drops is that they are just not impactful enough without pump spells. They are terrible top decks, and pretty bad vs abzan who is heading in the direction of main decking Sylvan Advocate. Also, when you play 1 drops, you really shouldn't play more than 2-3 kolaghan, or even dark dwellers for that matter.
I have hated hordeling outburst as a card ever since Stoke the Flames rotation, however, I found myself needing to draw another threat or having opening hands that were threat light… So I may be forced to play the card. I have an IQ on Sunday and will most likely be running BR dragons back depending on how FNM goes.
K Command is one of those cards that is usually good all the time. It’s weak in the Abzan matchup, but its another shock/discard in the aggro matchup, and the discard is good vs ramp in G1. I used to think I’d never play it, but I think 3 copies is fine, even 1 copy is fine… The card is good. Sure it can’t “kill” a pumped up warden, mantis rider, knuckle blade (do people even play this card?) and anafenza…but you have upwards of 11 different MD kill spells that do that. People also forget the regrow ability of the card. make you discard return my Dragon/GDD is a pretty big tempo play.
I don’t like fire craft, it’s slow, and the 3 cmc is a big deal. Often times this deck is capable of two plays a turn, and fire craft really inhibits the chances of doing that.
Grasp vs Roast is a close debate, I don’t think you can say one is strictly better than the other. However, killing Wingmate roc in game is a huge plus for Grasp, it’s arguably the best card against us. Yes it doesn’t kill rhino in G1, but you still have other ways to combine two spells for that.
Playing main deck duress means you need more black sources, so I can see the potential for Grasp being good. I don’t think one is strictly more correct than the other, certainly warrants testing.
Currently my list for IQ looks something like this: (subject to change throughout the week)
4 Flamewake
4 Thunderbreak
4 Kolaghan
2 Pia and Kiran
3 Fiery Impulse
4 Draconic Roar
3 Murderous Cut
2 Duress
3 Hordeling Outburst
6 Mountain
3 Swamp
2 Haven
3 Smoldering Marsh
11 Fetches
2 Goblin Dark Dwellers
1 Duress
4 Transgress the Mind
2 Outpost Siege
2 Roast
3 Kozi Return
1 Kalitas
I am trying out the MD Duress/Grasp combo, if I dislike it Roast/KCommand would be a fine substitute.
Some things: Dark Dwellers is great, however, its not THAT great MD in Game 1. It's significantly better in postboard games where you want to loop k command (if you run them) or discard spells.
DO NOT RUN LESS THAN 3 KOLAGHAN. This card puts you significantly ahead of most midrange decks in G1 and improves value of Draconic Roar in G1... I ran a 3/2 of kolaghan and dark dweller, and I will be going to a 4-1 split with a 2nd GDD in the side for postboard games. Often times with this deck in post board games where you have the opponent low, all you need is a top deck kolaghan and you will win.
Firecraft is not a good card in this shell without playing 7 1 drops. If you want to play it, add the 1 drops. Play Roast, Kcommand or Grasp in some number. You will need the kill spells, and paying 3 mana to kill an anafenza feels pretty awful.
Cutting murderous cut from the main is just insane. It's your best removal spell vs rally, GR Ramp and Abzan in game 1....
Thanks. I don't think you want Outpost Siege anymore. The only matchup I could see drawing extra being worth 2 SB slots is MAYBE the rally matchup, but even then, you are better off trying to win with the combo.
I have thought about playing 2 firecraft for the final 2 slots, but it's possible heelcutter is better there (too early to tell whats better vs abzan/ramp/jeskai this early on). I think if you want to play 4 Fiery Impulse, you just play a 3/2 split between it and wild slash in the MD. Wild Slash gets the nod from me because of its ability to trigger bushwacker on an empty board if need be.
4 Monastery Swiftspear
3 Zurgo Bellstriker
1 Lightning Berserker
4 Abbot of Keral Keep
2 Reckless Bushwacker
4 Dragon Fodder
2 Hordeling Outburst
4 Wild Slash
1 Fiery Impulse
4 Atarka's Command
3 Temur Battle Rage
3 Become Immense
8 Mountain
1 Forest
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Cinder Glade
2 Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh
2 Fiery Impulse
2 Act of Treason
3 Roast ( might play 4 )
1 Hordeling Outburst (might play 2)
2 Boiling Earth
2 maybe 4 slots remaining
MD feels great I think 3/3 Combo is fine.
GR Ramp seems 50/50, and rally seems 60/40 in their favor.. I am having issues coming up with the best strategy for the rally matchup. Any suggestions?
Final few SB slots could either be: Hooting Mandrils (really not sure what matchup id want this for), Thunderbreak, Flamewake, or Exquisite Firecraft.
4 Flamewake Phoenix
4 Thunderbreak Regent
3 Kolaghan, the Storm's Fury
2 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
4 Fiery Impulse
4 Draconic Roar
2 Murderous Cut
2 Roast
3 Hordeling Outburst
2 Kolaghan's Command
3 Smoldering Marsh
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
2 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
1 Swamp
2 Roast
2 Duress
4 Transgress the Mind
3 Self-Inflicted Wound
2 Outpost Siege
1 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
From my testing, I really want to be proactive while obtaining 2 for 1s if possible. I like all the removal to handle any aggro decks, and post-board, Dark Dwellers helps me loop loop back important SB cards for the matchup.
3 Thoughseize is probably necessary because your Tron matchup is literally that terrible.
I agree that it's possible the 3rd terminate should just be a murderous cut. The matches where murderous cut is good, the games tend to longer, therefore it's not quite as taxing on your graveyard... not to mention it's an oh ***** button that won't trigger a late eidolon vs your worst matchup in burn.
I have never been a big fan of electrolyze, lingering souls decks should be fairly good match ups g1, and if you expect tokens to become popular, wouldn't a spell pierce or even a 2nd forked bolt be better here?
SB seems mostly fine... I don't see the reason for having the 4th (or even 3rd terminate) using up a spot. The sb forked bolt should either be another coutner (deprive maybe?), or magma spray (Finks is the biggest problem for the deck IMO). 2 Negate seems a bit much, probably want another Recall for the affinity match ups because it is literally game ending.
They should be Zurgo
Curve topper should be reach or have evasion, not another ground creature
Complete disregard? That card is terrible.
No Abbot? Have you played with the card?
Snapping Gnarlid? A card that is infinitely chump blockable and provides no value late game.
Bottom line is that this deck needs a 1 drop as consistently as possible. As you are trying to create the most powerful game 1 deck possible. You also need late game staying power and value, which is wear Abbot comes in.
My list
4 Bloodstained
4 Heath
2 Cinderglade
3 Forest
5 Mountain
1 Smoldering Marsh
4 Scythe Leopoard
4 Swiftspear
3 Zurgo
4 Makindi Sliderunner
4 Abbot
2 Heelcutter
4 Atarka Command
4 Firecraft
2 Become Immense
2 Titans Str
4 Self-Inflicted Wound
1 Molten Vortex
2 Fiery Impulse
1 Act of Treason
2 Roast
2 Thunderbreak Regent
2 Scab Clan Berserker
1 Outpost Siege
I agree that 20 lands MIGHT be too many. I have found that I really like hitting my land drop every turn, when it gets to a point where I am able to do two things a turn I am pretty far ahead. Luckily, 2 of the lands are cycle lands which have been nice when digging for a combo piece. I could see cutting the temple.
I love this deck so far, especially with the creature heavy meta.
Last night, I had a power artifact + grim monolith + cunning wish + banefire kill as well as a rings/basalt + stroke of genius victory. It felt good.
This deck is very powerful, and I suggest people try it out!