GB threshold has made it to the top 16 of a GP. Notable characteristics of the deck:
20 lands instead of 19
-2 Deathrite Shaman, -1 Elvish Mystic, -1 Sylvan Caryatid, -1 Commune with the Gods
+4 Lotleth Troll
Mistcutter Hydra in the board instead of Skylasher
Single Whip of Erebos as only source of lifegain post board
I think going down to 3 Sylvan Caryatids is not great-- it's key for the RW burn matchup. The RW burn match is pretty miserable... they can disrupt our mana and bolt us at the same time with searing blood. You have to play pretty carefully to limit the damage that card can do to you. So maybe going up to 20 lands and cutting the dorks isn't such a bad idea?
I also think Mistcutter is extremely subpar compared to Skylasher.
Have people not been running into enough Bile Blights that Lotleth Troll can make it back into the deck?
So guys, you might have seen me play Dredge at GP Melbourne at two feature matches. Ended up coming in at 37th out of 902 entries. Here's the list I was running.
I think I saw your featured match-- Nice nighthowler on herald win out of nowhere. I won gameday with a similar mainboard, though our sideboards are pretty different (I have whips and lifebanes and skylashers in the board).
It's not really that useful against MUD. I tried it out, but it only hits a few cards, and only one that matters. Master of Waves can be answered by other means though, so I cut the card. It had its uses vs MBD, but that MU was already good enough for it not to matter.
I'm not sure how the UW Control MU is. Haven't tested it yet. I think I can get it pretty high without sacrificing my other MUs.
Fair enough. I've been playing this deck a long time and I like sharing what works for me. The UW control MU can be rough, but golgari charm counters two of their best cards against us in verdict and dsphere.
This version has a positive MBD MU, and an even MUD MU. Working on UW Control MU next. Obviously still weak to fast aggro decks, but that's what we get running so many cards that don't do anything. I'm loving this deck anyway.
I run golgari charms mainboard to shore up the MUD, UW Control, and WW matchup. If you're having trouble with those decks, I'd suggest trying charm. It's more of a dead card vs MBD, but it still hits an early pack rat, underworld connections, whip of erebos, and occasionally regenerates your guys.
Also, guildgates coming in tapped is a real bummer and that also probably hurts your MUD and Aggro matchups.
Went 4-0 tonight at FNM vs MonoU, MonoB, WBR midrange, MonoU splashing W (for Ephara and D Sphere).
My buddy went 3-0-1 tonight and got 2nd with a similar deck (just without Wayfinders and a slightly different sideboard) against GR, Bant Control (the draw), WW, and MonoB.
I might replace the Thoughtseizes with Lifebane Zombie. I'm not sure yet, but I feel like I prefer Lifebane's limited 2 for 1 vs Thoughtseize's 1 for 1.
Satyr Wayfinder is a 2 of IMO, but I put one in the SB to see if I would prefer a 3rd and I think sometimes I might. Particularly against decks that can mess with our mana with Drown in Sorrow and Anger of the Gods. It's also nice vs MonoU since it can't be tapped down by Tidebinder Mage. I'll be sticking to this configuration for now. I've considered the Herald of Torment but I don't really like losing our removal in Shadowborn Demon.
I'm also finding myself less and less of a fan of Nemesis of Mortals. I could see possibly putting in Scourge of Skola Vale or Herald of Torment in for him, but occasionally he blocks guys like Obzedat or Blood Baron.
played in a tuesday event... went 2-2 in 4 matches
0-2 vs White Weenies splashing black?
2-0 vs Mono Blue
2-0 vs an Esper aggro brew
0-2 vs Mono Black
Felt like i drew very poorly against the WW and monoB decks... no real breakthroughs or anything but i'm really underwhelmed by deadbridge chant. Also, I have a split of ultimate price, putrefy and abrupt decay in my SB and I always end up wanting all of them when I do want removal spells. Need a better read on the meta I expect to tighten that up, I think.
my friend and I ran dredge yesterday and went 4-0 and 3-1 respectively. My only loss was because I showed up late.
played ww,monoU three times, monoR aggro, grixis control, gw midrange between the two of us and won them all. It really wasn't close. Skylashers in the board are great.
ive been finding this deck incredibly infuriating. alot of the time it does nothing, some of the time it runs out of gas just short of winning.
it sounds like you might need to pick up a more recent stock list and practice with it a bit. lotleth troll, jarad, and deathrite are evasive damage sources. i run a whip that can also be a source of pressure in the later stages of the game.
i feel that with tight play, this deck has a good game against most any non monoU deck
I feel like not playing at least 4 removal spells in the main deck is a big, big mistake, as can be seen by your description of your matchups.
It's certainly reasonable to mainboard removal spells and leave the thoughtseizes in the board. I might try it next once I figure out how many I'll even have in the sideboard. I plan to have some number of skylashers to shore up the monoU matchup. Likely it will be the 2 lifebane zombies and a whip of erebos leaving for a set of 3 skylashers. Slum reaper hasn't been terrible so far but I don't think I've tested it enough to make the call. It hasn't been amazing though so I could see it dropping out too.
However, with regards to the RB match... if I had had a thoughtseize in hand, I would've been perfectly fine (forcing him to discard madcap skills). So replacing the thoughtseizes with removal wouldn't have helped me there.
I still don't understand Underworld Cerberus. If it dies, it kills Nighthowler and makes Jarad a 2/2. Then you get a hand full of Nemesis which you can't cast cheaply. It also makes Deathrite useless late game.
I think he uses it to make it so his opponents can't target cards in his graveyard. He uses scavenging ooze in response to cerberus' dies trigger to limit the opponent's benefit. And if lotleth troll happens to be in play or in the graveyard, he can easily pitch the creatures he picks up back into the graveyard.
I don't think Tyramet/Cerberus is better than Jarad/Shadowborn though
Took this to FNM today-- there were only 8 people though so we just did 3 rounds... guess people are busy with holidays and stuff. Anyway, here were my matches:
1-2 MonoBlue
Lost to multiple master of waves and never saw my golgari charms, ultimate price, putrefy, etc to kill them. I am going to buy a set of skylashers and try and see how to improve this horrible matchup...
2-1 MonoBlack splashing Red
This guy splashed red for chandra pyromaster, stormbreath dragon, mizzium mortars and some other stuff. They were close games, but the backbreaker here was whip of erebos and nighthowler. They bought me enough time so that I could sacrifice dudes to tap his desecration demons and swing in for the win.
2-1 RB Aggro
Spike jesters, tormented heroes, mogis' marauder, cackler, madcap skills... He just ran me over game 1, but once i sided into removal and nylea's disciple I was able to stem the bleeding. I feel like he sided poorly because in games 2 and 3 I saw xathrid necromancer and lifebane zombie. I suspect if he stayed low curve and streamlined, I would have lost. Golgari charm is amazing here.
My $.02:
1. Following an offhand suggestion earlier in the thread, I put in Gatecreeper Vine and found I like it a lot more than Sylvan Caryatid .
I think I suggested GCV-- and I play it over the manaweft sliver. I don't think I would put it in over more than 1 caryatid because there have been occasions where I put nighthowler on caryatid to have a giant hexproof wall. Eventually I found Jarad and flung the caryatidhowler twice to kill my opponent.
Mainboard thoughtseize was good. Decided shocking myself just for sin collectors wasn't good enough. Tried disciple over gift of orzhova today... and it was alright. Much worse if they have a skullcrack, but otherwise it was reasonable.
Went for the 3rd jarad over the 1 korozda guildmage because I think Jarad gets you those wins out of nowhere that are probably better than incremental advantages that korozda GM might have.
I beat UW heroic, GW aggro, Wr humans, and went to time vs monoB splashing R.
Thoughts: Might go with a gatecreeper vine over the manaweft sliver. 19 lands tonight played much better than a 20 land version I played a few days ago. Thoughtseize was quite good mainboard. Occasionally did miss having the drown in filths though, particularly vs the first 3 decks. Not sure if it deserves slots.
What do you think of Deadbridge Chant? In my light testing, it has been amazing, I have went to two in the SB.
Have not been impressed. I landed it several times against slower esper / monoB / etc decks but have not been able to sculpt my graveyard to make good use of it. The most use I'd gotten out of it was making my nighthowlers / jarad massive and a couple extra lands.
GB threshold has made it to the top 16 of a GP. Notable characteristics of the deck:
I think going down to 3 Sylvan Caryatids is not great-- it's key for the RW burn matchup. The RW burn match is pretty miserable... they can disrupt our mana and bolt us at the same time with searing blood. You have to play pretty carefully to limit the damage that card can do to you. So maybe going up to 20 lands and cutting the dorks isn't such a bad idea?
I also think Mistcutter is extremely subpar compared to Skylasher.
Have people not been running into enough Bile Blights that Lotleth Troll can make it back into the deck?
I think I saw your featured match-- Nice nighthowler on herald win out of nowhere. I won gameday with a similar mainboard, though our sideboards are pretty different (I have whips and lifebanes and skylashers in the board).
Congrats on the finish!
Fair enough. I've been playing this deck a long time and I like sharing what works for me. The UW control MU can be rough, but golgari charm counters two of their best cards against us in verdict and dsphere.
I run golgari charms mainboard to shore up the MUD, UW Control, and WW matchup. If you're having trouble with those decks, I'd suggest trying charm. It's more of a dead card vs MBD, but it still hits an early pack rat, underworld connections, whip of erebos, and occasionally regenerates your guys.
Also, guildgates coming in tapped is a real bummer and that also probably hurts your MUD and Aggro matchups.
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
3 Lotleth Troll
3 Nemesis of Mortals
3 Shadowborn Demon
4 Nighthowler
4 Elvish Mystic
2 Satyr Wayfinder
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Grisly Salvage
4 Commune With the Gods
3 Golgari Charm
8 Forest
4 Overgrown Tomb
7 Swamp
1 Abrupt Decay
3 Thoughtseize
1 Shadowborn Demon
1 Satyr Wayfinder
1 Putrefy
1 Dark Betrayal
1 Whip of Erebos
4 Skylasher
2 Nylea's Disciple
Went 4-0 tonight at FNM vs MonoU, MonoB, WBR midrange, MonoU splashing W (for Ephara and D Sphere).
My buddy went 3-0-1 tonight and got 2nd with a similar deck (just without Wayfinders and a slightly different sideboard) against GR, Bant Control (the draw), WW, and MonoB.
I might replace the Thoughtseizes with Lifebane Zombie. I'm not sure yet, but I feel like I prefer Lifebane's limited 2 for 1 vs Thoughtseize's 1 for 1.
Satyr Wayfinder is a 2 of IMO, but I put one in the SB to see if I would prefer a 3rd and I think sometimes I might. Particularly against decks that can mess with our mana with Drown in Sorrow and Anger of the Gods. It's also nice vs MonoU since it can't be tapped down by Tidebinder Mage. I'll be sticking to this configuration for now. I've considered the Herald of Torment but I don't really like losing our removal in Shadowborn Demon.
I'm also finding myself less and less of a fan of Nemesis of Mortals. I could see possibly putting in Scourge of Skola Vale or Herald of Torment in for him, but occasionally he blocks guys like Obzedat or Blood Baron.
0-2 vs White Weenies splashing black?
2-0 vs Mono Blue
2-0 vs an Esper aggro brew
0-2 vs Mono Black
Felt like i drew very poorly against the WW and monoB decks... no real breakthroughs or anything but i'm really underwhelmed by deadbridge chant. Also, I have a split of ultimate price, putrefy and abrupt decay in my SB and I always end up wanting all of them when I do want removal spells. Need a better read on the meta I expect to tighten that up, I think.
played ww,monoU three times, monoR aggro, grixis control, gw midrange between the two of us and won them all. It really wasn't close. Skylashers in the board are great.
it sounds like you might need to pick up a more recent stock list and practice with it a bit. lotleth troll, jarad, and deathrite are evasive damage sources. i run a whip that can also be a source of pressure in the later stages of the game.
i feel that with tight play, this deck has a good game against most any non monoU deck
It's certainly reasonable to mainboard removal spells and leave the thoughtseizes in the board. I might try it next once I figure out how many I'll even have in the sideboard. I plan to have some number of skylashers to shore up the monoU matchup. Likely it will be the 2 lifebane zombies and a whip of erebos leaving for a set of 3 skylashers. Slum reaper hasn't been terrible so far but I don't think I've tested it enough to make the call. It hasn't been amazing though so I could see it dropping out too.
However, with regards to the RB match... if I had had a thoughtseize in hand, I would've been perfectly fine (forcing him to discard madcap skills). So replacing the thoughtseizes with removal wouldn't have helped me there.
I think he uses it to make it so his opponents can't target cards in his graveyard. He uses scavenging ooze in response to cerberus' dies trigger to limit the opponent's benefit. And if lotleth troll happens to be in play or in the graveyard, he can easily pitch the creatures he picks up back into the graveyard.
I don't think Tyramet/Cerberus is better than Jarad/Shadowborn though
4 elvish mystic
3 jarad, golgari lich lord
3 lotleth troll
4 nemesis of mortals
4 nighthowler
2 shadowborn demon
4 sylvan caryatid
1 gatecreeper vine
3 Thoughtseize
4 grisly salvage
1 whip of erebos
8 forest
4 overgrown tomb
7 swamp
1 deadbridge chant
2 Lifebane Zombie
3 golgari charm
2 nylea's disciple
1 slum reaper
1 abrupt decay
1 whip of erebos
1 Putrefy
1 Ultimate Price
2 Shadowborn demon
Took this to FNM today-- there were only 8 people though so we just did 3 rounds... guess people are busy with holidays and stuff. Anyway, here were my matches:
1-2 MonoBlue
Lost to multiple master of waves and never saw my golgari charms, ultimate price, putrefy, etc to kill them. I am going to buy a set of skylashers and try and see how to improve this horrible matchup...
2-1 MonoBlack splashing Red
This guy splashed red for chandra pyromaster, stormbreath dragon, mizzium mortars and some other stuff. They were close games, but the backbreaker here was whip of erebos and nighthowler. They bought me enough time so that I could sacrifice dudes to tap his desecration demons and swing in for the win.
2-1 RB Aggro
Spike jesters, tormented heroes, mogis' marauder, cackler, madcap skills... He just ran me over game 1, but once i sided into removal and nylea's disciple I was able to stem the bleeding. I feel like he sided poorly because in games 2 and 3 I saw xathrid necromancer and lifebane zombie. I suspect if he stayed low curve and streamlined, I would have lost. Golgari charm is amazing here.
I think I suggested GCV-- and I play it over the manaweft sliver. I don't think I would put it in over more than 1 caryatid because there have been occasions where I put nighthowler on caryatid to have a giant hexproof wall. Eventually I found Jarad and flung the caryatidhowler twice to kill my opponent.
Which list did you put together?
4 elvish mystic
3 jarad, golgari lich lord
3 lotleth troll
4 nemesis of mortals
4 nighthowler
2 shadowborn demon
4 sylvan caryatid
1 manaweft sliver
3 Thoughtseize
4 grisly salvage
1 whip of erebos
8 forest
4 overgrown tomb
7 swamp
1 deadbridge chant
2 Lifebane Zombie
3 golgari charm
2 nylea's disciple
1 slum reaper
1 Lotleth troll
1 whip of erebos
1 Putrefy
1 Ultimate Price
2 Shadowborn demon
Mainboard thoughtseize was good. Decided shocking myself just for sin collectors wasn't good enough. Tried disciple over gift of orzhova today... and it was alright. Much worse if they have a skullcrack, but otherwise it was reasonable.
Went for the 3rd jarad over the 1 korozda guildmage because I think Jarad gets you those wins out of nowhere that are probably better than incremental advantages that korozda GM might have.
I beat UW heroic, GW aggro, Wr humans, and went to time vs monoB splashing R.
Thoughts: Might go with a gatecreeper vine over the manaweft sliver. 19 lands tonight played much better than a 20 land version I played a few days ago. Thoughtseize was quite good mainboard. Occasionally did miss having the drown in filths though, particularly vs the first 3 decks. Not sure if it deserves slots.
No, I don't think I would. I don't see what adding more trolls would do to improve the matchups that are difficult for the deck.
If you want to do a 2/2 split, I'm sure it's fine. Having 4 in the 75 is necessary though.
I might replace it with the 20th land.
I think those decks are gearing up to face mono blue. In almost any other matchup, whip is incredible and has to stay somewhere in the 75.
Have not been impressed. I landed it several times against slower esper / monoB / etc decks but have not been able to sculpt my graveyard to make good use of it. The most use I'd gotten out of it was making my nighthowlers / jarad massive and a couple extra lands.
Never got to play it. However, I did hit blood baron a few times with lifebane zombie. They probably play well together.
I just feel it allows you to put more pressure onto an opponent. I would consider hopeful eidolon too.