So a UW Heroic deck got first at SCG this weekend. This is the version with Heliod's Pilgrim. To be honest I just don't get it. I haven't liked the Pilgrim version and have gone back to the Pilgrimless version, but the Pilgrim version still puts up results. I guess results like these make me quite of question going Pilgrimless. That said, like most people say here, I find Pilgrim too slow.
monastery mentor is proving to be too slow for me. personal preference, of course, I prefer the fabled hero instead.
Did you try the monestary mentors in some kind of testing? My hope is that you are right because I don't really feel like going about to acquire a playset of them.
When I was playing the 3-4 Pilgrims, I was getting rocked at my LGS. It was just too slow or my hand was just clunked up with them and no heroic guy. One thing to note was that at that time there was a lot of Mardu around so maybe it was just a timing thing. Plus my sample size was just a couple of tourneys when I had that bad run. Lately I haven't run into Mardu, so that's a thing. So the last few 3-0 and 4-0's at my LGS could be some luck too.
The mana base probably needs some work, maybe another island or Mana Confluence in there, and dump a Tranquil Cove or two. Because I was shuffling between different numbers of Pilgrims, and doing so fairly sloppily, I never really adjusted my mana base that well. Kind of just took cards out on the fly depending on what I wanted to try at the time. I only own one Confluence and since I'm not that much of a Standard player (closest LGS only does Standard and Heroic was cheap to build) I haven't prioritized acquiring the 2nd or 3rd Confluence. I noticed the damage adding up playing one Confluence, so I can't imagine what would happen if I had 2 going at the same time. The thing is that the non-Pilgrim versions are faster and would prefer more confluences in there versus the Tranquil Coves. Having Strand and tapland for example in the opening hand when you have 1-drop and Ordeal really sucks. Dumping the two Coves would help minimize that scenario.
Hopeful Eidolon has been surprisingly good for me. It's a little slow, but there are matchups when you get it going and you basically can't lose. One card that has started becoming less of a factor is Feat of Resistance. I just never have the mana to use it. I think that links to my preference for Stubborn Denial over Negate. Sometimes Denial does nothing cause my guy isn't ferocious and they can pay, but generally Negate costs too much so I don't even have the option to cast it. I consider all those spells protection type spells, and generally I want protection to cost 1 mana. I do run Disdainful Stroke at 2 mana, but that is generally less of a protection spell and used to stop threats coming out like Butcher of the Horde, Siege Rhino and other problematic cards from showing up.
So I've come full circle. I initially played the non-pilgrim, 4 Aqueous Form version and then transitioned slowly into the Pilgrim version when it became the flavour of the month, going from 1 Pilgrim all the way to 4 and then back down to 1. So I've played with all numbers of Pilgrims. Pilgrims are just too slow for me. I'm still playing 1 and that's probably wrong (should just commit to all or none), but there are times where it's saved me in the late game allowing me to tutor for Aqueous or something I needed. That said, when you have two in your hand it just feels so bad. I prefer to go with Trailblazers to maximize the chance of 1-drop into Ordeal of Thassa. When that happens it's hard to lose. I've gone 3-0 and 4-0 at my LGS tourney with the 1-Pilgrim version. I'll probably end up ditching the last Pilgrim at some point. Less Pilgrims = less land which means you get to play more action.
I also personally think Seeker of the Way is trash. Unless it's on turn 2, I never wanted to see him and even then I'd rather just have a heroic dude out. Probably ok for sideboard against aggressive strategies, but that's about it.
So basically in your Elspeth scenerio Presence did the same thing that gods willing, feat, denial, negate, or stroke could have done.
All theory crafting aside, Im 28-9 with my list on mtgo and none of those losses would have been different with Presence.
It's a fine card. I've just had much more success dedicating those slots to counter magic.
I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure Gods Willing does nothing against Elspeth's minus. And as I mentioned, with Presence you get the counter. With the counterspells you don't. That being said, I like counterspells quite a bit. Stroke in particular stops bombs that cause a lot of trouble. Main issue with it is that it doesn't hit Crackling Doom.
guys tom ross just posted an article aboit the deck. but its in premium. does somebody have a premium scg account? care to share the content of toms article?
This is the list he posted he's going to play at the invitational. Basically says what we all know about Mardu - it's our worst matchup. He has Tactics and Brimaz cause of Jeskai Tokens. In terms of matchups he's siding out Seeker pretty much all the time.
Creatures (19)
4 Battlewise Hoplite
4 Favored Hoplite
4 Heliod's Pilgrim
4 Hero Of Iroas
3 Seeker of the Way
Lands (22)
2 Island
9 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
1 Mana Confluence
4 Temple of Enlightenment
2 Tranquil Cove
Spells (19)
1 Aqueous Form
1 Ordeal of Heliod
4 Ordeal of Thassa
2 Stratus Walk
1 Ajani's Presence
4 Defiant Strike
1 Feat of Resistance
4 Gods Willing
1 Stubborn Denial
Sideboard
2 Lagonna-Band Trailblazer
1 Aqueous Form
1 Mortal Obstinacy
1 Ajani's Presence
1 Dig Through Time
1 Erase
3 Stubborn Denial
1 Triton Tactics
2 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1 Glare of Heresy
1 Treasure Cruise
It's a fair analysis, but your accolades don't refute my point. I once wrestled a man-bear-pig.
Don't they though? To some extent? I would say they lend credibility to his argument. While not always correct, I'd probably take Tom Ross' opinion over yours, and while not on the same level, I would say that based on accomplishments I'll take Enzie's opinion over yours. Especially considering that you have not made a compelling argument for your case.
The initial point I was making is that currently, there is hardly reason to run it side.
I think that's wrong. I've won a game because I had Ajani's Presence and my opponent had Elspeth and went to minus her. The other thing is that I would rather Ajani's Presence a Hero's Downfall than Stubborn Denial it. In any case, since Magic is a game of various situations and game states, there's pros and cons to running it. Sometimes you wish you had it, and sometimes it's worthless. To say there's hardly any reason to side it seems a bit much.
I tried Pilgrim yesterday and it was pretty good. Just two of them because I wasn't exactly sold on them, but as people said, they're great to find the right aura that you need. That being said, there were times when I could have used a more relevant body, something with heroic and it let me down. Also the three mana cost is a little high. Depending on the turn, people can just play around whatever you're fetching up if you don't have the mana to play it right away. Anyway, I'm going to continue with it and see how it goes. I think one problem is that for pilgrim to be good, you have to go with something like Tom's list. Mine is a more focused list with some pilgrims in it. So I'll have to adjust accordingly.
I've been playing with it for a couple days and it's probably my favorite deck in standard at the moment. I'm hoping it has a strong finish.
Can you provide some feedback for the deck? I'm in agreement with Maplesmall that Heliod's Pilgrim is too slow and doesn't do much, but I'm assuming you have a different opinion. I'm also not a fan of Seeker of the Way. I imagine it's good in racing situations, but I'd prefer whatever +1/+1 I trigger to be in counter form. Another reason I don't like Seeker is that if I go one-drop then two-drop, I want both to be heroic creatures so that if one gets taken out, I can try and ride the other one by buffing and protecting it. One drop into Seeker usually results in my heroic one-drop getting killed. Seeker is unlikely going to take me all the way I find.
I personally think both Hoplites and Hero of Iroas are musts and then the other creatures can be added accordingly. I'm just not sure what they are. I like that Lagona-Band Trailblazer is a one drop and has 4 toughness, but sometimes it just sits there hitting for one a turn which is just too little pressure. I really want Heliod's Pilgrim to be good, but it just hasn't for me.
I'm taking this deck tomorrow to FNM and to a Star City IQ at the same place Sunday. It's based heavily off of what Skyrian posted. I tried it out and tweaked it a tad to my tastes and loved it. I only made a few changes, but I'll post my ideas on side-boarding afterward and some commentary on a few games I played with people at the shop.
Up to you on the land, but I like the deck-thinning with the added-fetches and am willing to take the 2 extra life for it. You can opt for none and simply do the extra temple and the life-land, but in my experience thus far the 2 extra hits (an effective 3 from the life) are irrelevant for the added speed.
I don't think Abzan Falconer is necessary and I haven't missed him since the cut. But I could be wrong. Maybe I should have relegated his spot to a MB Stratus Walk but I like the flexibility of the 1 MB Stubborn Denial. It is effectively serving as a a 9th protection spell, but can also stop Planeswalkers and their ilk once we have some counters on our guy.
For sideboard changes, I felt we rarely have the 5 land around for a Spectra Ward. Also I'd rather have some instant protection (via counter even) rather than have my guy get offed before my aura resolves. As I said earlier I don't think we need the bird, but I do have the walk on the board. I think against another aggro deck we'd like another Ordeal of Heliod, and I will mention a few times where the card saved my butt. Triton Tactics against Aggro or Midrange is prett sweet too after you attack with all your guys and they let them through :3. Erase is amazing on the SB if they have pesky things like Whip of Erebos or Gods and can him them whenever I need.
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So as for the casual matches I've had with some peeps up at the shop...I mean they were casual but we're practicing for FNM and this Sunday (IQ) so I guess it's worth noting the 3 I remember.
Vs. Green Devotion (2-0)
Game 1: They got their mana-dorks out and I got a Favored Hoplite out. We proceeded to race and I won with an Ordeal of Heliod helping along the way. Nothing really special happened, but after seeing a Nylea, Boon Satyr, and Courser, I figured I'd throw in my Erases and Suspension Field for funsies. Forgot what I took out...
Game 2: Started pretty much the same. At one point I used an Ordeal to get me to 31. Then I stalled on getting any more auras to finish the game. I manage to get a Battle Mastery through Heliod's Pilgrim out when he's at around 12 life. He proceeds to use two Genesis Hydra in a row followed by a (I imagine sideboarded)Nylea's Disciple to help him live long enough to race me. His last turn he used a Become Immense and got me down to like 15...before I finished him.
Vs. Rabble Red (2-1)
This matchup is almost entirely dictated by who goes first, since we don't have enough removal to really off their guys and once we get our one big guy powered up they can't get rid of him since their removal is only burn. Since they have so many creatures, I feel like Phalanx Leader could be good here but I haven't tested it out.
Game 1: I was on the play and started with a Favored, followed by a Lagonna on my second turn after he burned away my Hoplite. He played a Rabble on turn 3 but I was able to stuff his goblins with Lagonna, pumping her so I could get them out of the way instead of just blocking. I played another Lagonna for some more annoyance and proceeded to pump my way to victory on the back of my first Lagonna.
Game 2: On the draw, I sideboard in some Triton Tactics so I have the freedom to freeswing and then pumpblock as a counter to him attacking as well as the additional Ordeal. He plays a Monastary Swiftspear t1. I play a Hoplite (my only creature in hand, so bad move) which gets killed on his next turn. The rest of the game is literally nothing, since I didn't draw any creatures for the next 3 or 4 turns -_-.
Game 3: Much like game 1. I kept the sideboard plan the same. He stays competitive through the entire game, establishing a nice board presence with Frenzied Goblin, the Swiftspear, Goblin Rabblemaster and tries to all-in with a cast Hordeling Outburst, but my Ordeals (I believe I cast two of them) kept me alive long enough to get the last bit of damage in.
What are your thoughts on Heliod's Pilgrim? Tom Ross seems to be advocating them, but I don't really understand it. He obviously knows more than me, but to me it's not heroic, is fairly expensive even though it nets you a card. I feel like it's a tutor for an aura and not much more - after the search the body doesn't seem relevant and I don't think I would be slapping auras on it since it has no heroic. I guess I'm looking for someone to tell me that it's great because so and so...
Tom Ross' build seems more mid-rangey, maybe with more setup with the Pilgrims. I've been playing something closer to the Jan Van Der Vegt version which seems to be a bit more focused. More protection spells, lower curve which allows you to play a guy for cheap, buff him and then protect him to the end since you should have more protection spells and the mana open for them.
A pretty radical departure from the norm, with 0 snapcasters and 0 lingering souls and only 2 Jace. Adding 3 confidants and 4 baleful strix, adding important card advantage. The nutty part of the build inho is only 2 Swords to Plowshares MD and only 21 lands.
Wow, that is pretty weird with the 2 StP. Is this list designed to beat more combo? I mean there's the 2 StP, Strix cause you get a card and it comes down a turn faster, and then Bob for CA? Plus the SoFaF main, Liliana and 4 FoW. I'm assuming this is some Europe tourney and there's lots of Combo there?
Cryptics are really very powerful, but also very costly (triple U). Guess it is all up to you, how greedy are you? How risk adverse are you? Or how do you wanna curve out the cmc of your spells? Perhaps you may even need to play many many games and record the effectiveness of Cryptics vs how much it may screw you up, after all this is a game with significant randomness involved. Besides, Rhinne did mentioned that was his personal taste.
Perhaps until someone really bother to do some formal testing with some statistical backup, then it would be a more reliable guide to tell what is the ideal number of commands you should play in this deck, otherwise I guess for now, it is really all up to your own preference. To each, his own then.
I think Rhinne's personal taste was for the Mana Leak and Spell Snare, both of which I like btw. He seemed to really hate 4 Cryptics in that he dies a little inside when he sees it and is basically telling everyone to stop doing it. I do agree that 4 is a lot, but like I said, I like to see one every game, so I like 3. I really think having 1 in the deck is way too little, but I guess that's just preference.
Again, I'm just stating from personal experience that Cryptic has been good for me. I asked about the 3U cost earlier in the thread and people recommended Mystic Gate which has helped. Cryptic has basically helped me win games that I had no business winning. Usually tapping all someone's dudes (and getting a card) allows me to get in that extra damage I need to burn them out the rest of the way.
Everytime i see 4 cryptic command in this deck, i die a little inside.
Not even the old UW resto played 4 cryptics, and that was a more controlish deck than ours. Seriously, stop doing it.
1 or 2 should be enough, i could even understand 3 (tough i dont like it) but 4?
What are you gonna do turns 1-3? live on remands? Thats not gonna cut it.
You need mana leak here too. I play a few snares main to control the first turns of the game and not be over dependant on remand and leak, and it works, but thats just my personal taste.
I don't see what's wrong with Cryptic. I didn't run any and on the advice of some in this thread, I am now running 3. It's been really good for me. I always want to see one pretty much every game. I think 4 may be a little too many for me, but I'd rather play 4 than 1.
I feel like you guys are getting a little too caught up in trying to define the deck's archetype and adhere to it. This is a midrange deck. It has control elements, it has aggro elements, it has tempo elements. But what really matters is what cards improve your win ratios in your particular meta, not what cards fit the archetype. At the end of the day, you're not playing an archetype, you're playing a deck, and what cards you need are going to depend on the meta, the matchup, even the specific board state, not on wether or not something is a "tempo card."
I think this makes sense. I actually have no problem with Revelation, I just prefer it in the board. I think it would be very good in certain matchups and that's when I'd bring it out. I feel pre-board what we want to do in general is drop a Geist, do a lot of damage with it and then burn someone out or just ride it the whole way by protecting it. So to me that has a bit more of an aggro element to it and why I wouldn't want Revelation to start. When the deck becomes more controlling in nature, that's probably when I'd go for the Revelation. Like maybe against Pod? I could be wrong, but between removing mana dorks early on and trying to get Finks out of the way, I run out of gas. Revelation would be a good way to refill my hand and even get some life back out of nowhere if I'm racing against say a resolved Sigarda. I think it would work well since you can wait EOT leaving up removal in case they go for the combo. If they don't, drop a big Revelation and get ahead. This all being said, I haven't tried Revelation, but I plan to once it drops. It's a little pricey at this time - not worth $30 IMO, but that's another thing.
Did you try the monestary mentors in some kind of testing? My hope is that you are right because I don't really feel like going about to acquire a playset of them.
4 favored hoplite
4 battlewise hoplite
4 hero of iroas
1 heliod's pilgrim
2 lagonna-band trailblazer
spells
4 defiant strike
4 god's willing
1 mortal obstinacy
4 ordeal of thassa
1 ordeal of heliod
4 aqueous form
1 stratus walk
1 ajani's presence
1 feat of resistance
2 stubborn denial
1 triton tactics
4 flooded strand
4 temple of enlightenment
2 island
8 plains
1 mana confluence
2 tranquil cove
1 feat of resistance
1 stubborn denial
1 erase
2 glare of heresy
2 treasure cruise
1 ordeal of heliod
2 disdainful stroke
2 suspension field
1 hopeful eidolon
1 battle mastery
1 stratus walk
When I was playing the 3-4 Pilgrims, I was getting rocked at my LGS. It was just too slow or my hand was just clunked up with them and no heroic guy. One thing to note was that at that time there was a lot of Mardu around so maybe it was just a timing thing. Plus my sample size was just a couple of tourneys when I had that bad run. Lately I haven't run into Mardu, so that's a thing. So the last few 3-0 and 4-0's at my LGS could be some luck too.
The mana base probably needs some work, maybe another island or Mana Confluence in there, and dump a Tranquil Cove or two. Because I was shuffling between different numbers of Pilgrims, and doing so fairly sloppily, I never really adjusted my mana base that well. Kind of just took cards out on the fly depending on what I wanted to try at the time. I only own one Confluence and since I'm not that much of a Standard player (closest LGS only does Standard and Heroic was cheap to build) I haven't prioritized acquiring the 2nd or 3rd Confluence. I noticed the damage adding up playing one Confluence, so I can't imagine what would happen if I had 2 going at the same time. The thing is that the non-Pilgrim versions are faster and would prefer more confluences in there versus the Tranquil Coves. Having Strand and tapland for example in the opening hand when you have 1-drop and Ordeal really sucks. Dumping the two Coves would help minimize that scenario.
Hopeful Eidolon has been surprisingly good for me. It's a little slow, but there are matchups when you get it going and you basically can't lose. One card that has started becoming less of a factor is Feat of Resistance. I just never have the mana to use it. I think that links to my preference for Stubborn Denial over Negate. Sometimes Denial does nothing cause my guy isn't ferocious and they can pay, but generally Negate costs too much so I don't even have the option to cast it. I consider all those spells protection type spells, and generally I want protection to cost 1 mana. I do run Disdainful Stroke at 2 mana, but that is generally less of a protection spell and used to stop threats coming out like Butcher of the Horde, Siege Rhino and other problematic cards from showing up.
I also personally think Seeker of the Way is trash. Unless it's on turn 2, I never wanted to see him and even then I'd rather just have a heroic dude out. Probably ok for sideboard against aggressive strategies, but that's about it.
I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure Gods Willing does nothing against Elspeth's minus. And as I mentioned, with Presence you get the counter. With the counterspells you don't. That being said, I like counterspells quite a bit. Stroke in particular stops bombs that cause a lot of trouble. Main issue with it is that it doesn't hit Crackling Doom.
This is the list he posted he's going to play at the invitational. Basically says what we all know about Mardu - it's our worst matchup. He has Tactics and Brimaz cause of Jeskai Tokens. In terms of matchups he's siding out Seeker pretty much all the time.
Creatures (19)
4 Battlewise Hoplite
4 Favored Hoplite
4 Heliod's Pilgrim
4 Hero Of Iroas
3 Seeker of the Way
Lands (22)
2 Island
9 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
1 Mana Confluence
4 Temple of Enlightenment
2 Tranquil Cove
Spells (19)
1 Aqueous Form
1 Ordeal of Heliod
4 Ordeal of Thassa
2 Stratus Walk
1 Ajani's Presence
4 Defiant Strike
1 Feat of Resistance
4 Gods Willing
1 Stubborn Denial
Sideboard
2 Lagonna-Band Trailblazer
1 Aqueous Form
1 Mortal Obstinacy
1 Ajani's Presence
1 Dig Through Time
1 Erase
3 Stubborn Denial
1 Triton Tactics
2 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1 Glare of Heresy
1 Treasure Cruise
Don't they though? To some extent? I would say they lend credibility to his argument. While not always correct, I'd probably take Tom Ross' opinion over yours, and while not on the same level, I would say that based on accomplishments I'll take Enzie's opinion over yours. Especially considering that you have not made a compelling argument for your case.
I think that's wrong. I've won a game because I had Ajani's Presence and my opponent had Elspeth and went to minus her. The other thing is that I would rather Ajani's Presence a Hero's Downfall than Stubborn Denial it. In any case, since Magic is a game of various situations and game states, there's pros and cons to running it. Sometimes you wish you had it, and sometimes it's worthless. To say there's hardly any reason to side it seems a bit much.
Can you provide some feedback for the deck? I'm in agreement with Maplesmall that Heliod's Pilgrim is too slow and doesn't do much, but I'm assuming you have a different opinion. I'm also not a fan of Seeker of the Way. I imagine it's good in racing situations, but I'd prefer whatever +1/+1 I trigger to be in counter form. Another reason I don't like Seeker is that if I go one-drop then two-drop, I want both to be heroic creatures so that if one gets taken out, I can try and ride the other one by buffing and protecting it. One drop into Seeker usually results in my heroic one-drop getting killed. Seeker is unlikely going to take me all the way I find.
I personally think both Hoplites and Hero of Iroas are musts and then the other creatures can be added accordingly. I'm just not sure what they are. I like that Lagona-Band Trailblazer is a one drop and has 4 toughness, but sometimes it just sits there hitting for one a turn which is just too little pressure. I really want Heliod's Pilgrim to be good, but it just hasn't for me.
What are your thoughts on Heliod's Pilgrim? Tom Ross seems to be advocating them, but I don't really understand it. He obviously knows more than me, but to me it's not heroic, is fairly expensive even though it nets you a card. I feel like it's a tutor for an aura and not much more - after the search the body doesn't seem relevant and I don't think I would be slapping auras on it since it has no heroic. I guess I'm looking for someone to tell me that it's great because so and so...
Tom Ross' build seems more mid-rangey, maybe with more setup with the Pilgrims. I've been playing something closer to the Jan Van Der Vegt version which seems to be a bit more focused. More protection spells, lower curve which allows you to play a guy for cheap, buff him and then protect him to the end since you should have more protection spells and the mana open for them.
http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gpsto14/deck-tech-uw-heroic-jan-van-der-vegt-2014-10-26
Wow, that is pretty weird with the 2 StP. Is this list designed to beat more combo? I mean there's the 2 StP, Strix cause you get a card and it comes down a turn faster, and then Bob for CA? Plus the SoFaF main, Liliana and 4 FoW. I'm assuming this is some Europe tourney and there's lots of Combo there?
Notion Thief in the SB is interesting too.
I think Rhinne's personal taste was for the Mana Leak and Spell Snare, both of which I like btw. He seemed to really hate 4 Cryptics in that he dies a little inside when he sees it and is basically telling everyone to stop doing it. I do agree that 4 is a lot, but like I said, I like to see one every game, so I like 3. I really think having 1 in the deck is way too little, but I guess that's just preference.
Again, I'm just stating from personal experience that Cryptic has been good for me. I asked about the 3U cost earlier in the thread and people recommended Mystic Gate which has helped. Cryptic has basically helped me win games that I had no business winning. Usually tapping all someone's dudes (and getting a card) allows me to get in that extra damage I need to burn them out the rest of the way.
I don't see what's wrong with Cryptic. I didn't run any and on the advice of some in this thread, I am now running 3. It's been really good for me. I always want to see one pretty much every game. I think 4 may be a little too many for me, but I'd rather play 4 than 1.
Boggle has to be the worst?
I think this makes sense. I actually have no problem with Revelation, I just prefer it in the board. I think it would be very good in certain matchups and that's when I'd bring it out. I feel pre-board what we want to do in general is drop a Geist, do a lot of damage with it and then burn someone out or just ride it the whole way by protecting it. So to me that has a bit more of an aggro element to it and why I wouldn't want Revelation to start. When the deck becomes more controlling in nature, that's probably when I'd go for the Revelation. Like maybe against Pod? I could be wrong, but between removing mana dorks early on and trying to get Finks out of the way, I run out of gas. Revelation would be a good way to refill my hand and even get some life back out of nowhere if I'm racing against say a resolved Sigarda. I think it would work well since you can wait EOT leaving up removal in case they go for the combo. If they don't, drop a big Revelation and get ahead. This all being said, I haven't tried Revelation, but I plan to once it drops. It's a little pricey at this time - not worth $30 IMO, but that's another thing.