How do you guys deal with a resolved elesh norn? I've found that she can just completely shut out our game plan. Most of the board gets wiped since all our creatures are tiny, and then the resulting spirits/tokens/whatever also insta-die as a result. Unless you happen to have path/swords/other removal in hand its just a beating. I've enjoyed the hell out of the deck, but usually someone at the table just tutors her up and I make a sad face.
Is anyone else going to GP minneapolis in a couple weeks? I'd be interested to see what lists people are thinking about. The big decision points for me are if I run Pridemage/spellskite mainboard or if I just stick with my mirran crusader plan. Both plains are pretty equally viable. The crusader plan is gambling that pod is going to be a huge percentage of the metagame. Although I feel like twin is still my most annoying matchup. I feel like supression field and/or extra linvala is a good way to go for this event.
Yeah, I see myself doing that as well. There's a lot of twin in my local meta. My problem is, qasali doesn't actually fix the kiki-jiki problem. He's still going to go infi with it regardless of if you have it or not. Linvala is the only real fix for it.
Or a wonderful, grinchy idea i had.
Suture priest? Not a good answer, but at this point i'm angry enough to take a "don't care if i lose to everything but twin" build to fnm. We just need another linvala-esque hatebear.
Had a 32 person GPT this weekend. Finished in the top 8. Once again my only loss comes from twin. (Granted this loss came with my opponent at 1 life, top-decking the kiki jiki needed to combo out. he was dead on board otherwise. RRRGGG) It's a real pain losing to that stupid stupid deck. As much as I hate to do it, I think wilt leaf liege is comign out of the deck in favor of at least 1 linvala, and possibly something else. Preferably something that hates on twin.
I like the runed halo idea. You could preemptively just name resto angel or whatever other stupid thing they'll combo out with. UWR twin though is my own personal vietnam. I just can't seem to get there as consistently as I like. Thalia doesn't stop kiki, and linvala as a 1 of just isnt consistent enough to see reliably. Most of our other tools don't really stop what they're trying to do like they do with pod.
Cruel control? No problem. I have a good friend that plays it. Here's what you do. If you arent running 4 smiters and at least 2 wilt leaf, you can do that. Basically keep pressure on through the whole game. Be sure to save your smiters and leiges in hand for cruel ultimatum. when it happens, you just "discard" them onto the field, and then next turn swing for probably lethal.
exactly what DOLzero said. The ability to pressure combo decks is super important in GW hatebears. Flickerwisp is very cute, but doesnt really help close out games as much as say, loxodon smiter with two exalted triggers does.
I figure by turn 6-7 hard combo decks like twin or storm need to be facing lethal or as close to it as possible on the board. If you take much longer than that you'll simply get beaten far too often by combos. Those decks are designed to consistently go off. Thats what they do. The purpose of "classic" hatebears is to slow them getting to that combo, and to hopefully bring them to zero life before it can go off. Because given enough time, it will go off. Combos dominate modern, and if you ignore that in your build, you're going to have a bad time.
@ sporenfrosch:
4 mindcensors is just too many. The obvious problem being, i don't really ever want to see multiples. I especially never want there to be multiples on the board. I run two, and i've found that to be pretty good. I could see 3 if your meta was search heavy (lots of pod and stuff). If you're getting hosed on the ground, i have to wonder what you're playing against. Thrun and smiters are usually the biggest baddest dudes around. Elspeth also does wonders in locked up boards. Just jump a smiter and get in for 7. No need for excessive amounts of mindcensors.
Also, baneslayer is crazy efficient for the price. Run two of those and a linvala. Elspeth or rancor/swords are also great for pushing damage through.
Voice of resurgence has been great for me. I have him as a 3 of. I'm not really ever sorry to see him in matchups involving lots of spells. He's amazing in any matchup where there are remands/mana leaks/bolts. His token is an absolute ass beating. I've had board states where he'll just get in for two damage with impunity because they refuse to block him and create a 4/4+ (i play dorks so i usually have several creatures out).
So This weekend I took the list I posted above to my monthly modern FNM. Granted this is only 6 rounds (36 people), but I would say that most people there are pretty competitive.
Round 1:
played against some sort of team italia + green build. He took the first game, I mulled to 6 and still didn't draw gas. Game 2, I was able to crap out several smiters that got the job done. Game 3, once again didn't draw into anything larger than a noble hierarch or arbiter.
0-1
Round 2:
Bye. This is annoying but oh well. Ill take free points.
1-1
Round 3:
Played against UWR twin. The first game went very long, however I was able to suit up a Thrun with sword of WAP and he got there. I was sitting on path to exile the entire game hoping he wouldnt topdeck twin. Game 2 we didn't finish because we went to time. It was mostly a stalled board state with splinter twin on a wall of omens.
All I'll say is that Thalia is soooo good in this matchup.
2-1
Round 4:
Played against 8 rack. There are actually quite a few 8 rack decks in this meta. I have no idea why. Its not a very good deck in my opinion. Anyway, game 1 I simply beat face faster than he could discard. Liliana threw a smiter onto the field and I was able to take contol. Game 2 I put in chalice and played it for 1. That pretty much left most of his deck in his hands and unplayable.
3-1
Round 5:
Played against Affinity. In accordance with prophecy I lost game 1. Boarded in EE, and Chalice of the void for game 2. Chalice for 0 on the play basically made him not have much of an early game. I was able to EE a couple vault skirges and my hatebears got there. Game 3, same deal. He had a slow start which was lucky for me. Once again Chalice for 0 slowed him way down and I was able to put it away pretty easily.
Round 6:
Played against Pod. In both games, mirran crusaders came out and were able to beat face the whole time with impunity. Arbiters and Qasali pridemages also made the matchup way easier. Not a very stressul matchup.
5-1.
At this point they split to top 8. I technically was in first with 15 points. So good night for the bears. Felt good to take down a decent sized local tourney. Gives me hope that I'm not just pissing in the wind with this deck and that we have something. Final thoughts: mirran crusader is staying. he's too good. Swords are awesome. I didnt feel like anything in the deck was out of place. I think i'm staying with my current loadout barring any new additions from JOU. Going to start prepping for GPT next weekend, and GP minneapolis next month.
Noted. Perhaps I'll cut wilt leafs then in favor of qasali pridemages. It's rarely a bad card, I agree.
Also Elspeth is staying in my deck as well. I'm never really sorry to see her. Even in rare cases where i'm way behind on board, she provides ample distraction allowing me to regroup. She's an all-star
That said. I think 4 pridemages/seals might be a bit much. When do you bring in the seals vs pridemages? and why?
I'd probably cut a Wilt-Leaf too. But that's just a personal preference at the moment qualifying the state of Liliana OTV and Thoughseize.
If you're playing EE, I'd possibly go up to a 2nd BOP just so you have access to EE for 3 more consistently.
Yeah you're right about seals. I can probably stand to cut them. What are some suggestions to go in that spot? EE? Another worship?
As far as wilt-leaf, the only other thing I'll say is that there are a few cruel control decks lurking about in my meta. Nothing makes me happier than dumping a hand full of leiges and smiters when it goes off. But yeah, I could cut them. Ugh. It doesn't make me happy though. So much of the time I just find myself wanting a way to just do some face punching, and the 2/2's don't always get there on their own merits before some sort of combo goes off. Wilt leaf adds a splash of urgency to the deck that I think is lacking sometimes.
I do also find myself wanting another dork a lot of the time. I may have to add a 6th dork. I'm always happy to see them.
Gah...its so hard to do that for me. I love wilt leaf leige. Coming down on 3 and making for huge voices/smiters is just so wonderful. I just like him because he's really good at throwing off the math that people have to do every turn. all of a sudden they take 3-5 more damage than they planned.
That said, pridemage is really really good. I dunno.
Taking this list to an FNM tonight. Thoughts? (i'm going to try and swap out chalice for engineered explosives tonight)
3x horizon canopy
2x gavony township
4x Ghost quarter
14 other color producing lands
4x noble hierarch
1x Birds of paradise
4x Path to exile
4x Leonin Arbiter
2x Scavenging Ooze
3x Voice of Resurgence
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Aven Mindcensor
4x Loxodon Smiter
2x Mirran Crusader
2x Sword of War and Peace
1x Worship
1x Elspeth, knight-errant
1x Thrun
2x Wilt-leaf leige
1x Baneslayer Angel
Sideboard:
2x Chalice of the Void
2x Seal of Primordium
2x Torpor Orb
1x Linvala
1x Kataki, War's wage
2x Stony Silence
2x Qasali Pridemage
2x Rest in Peace
2x Spellskite
1x Worship
It's a relatively unknown meta for me. I predict a lot of pod and tarmo-twin type builds. Heavy green in both so I like the crusader. I hate only having 1 baneslayer but i just dont know where to cut. I'll report back after tonight.
Edit: sorry for formatting. I'm at work and don't want to take the time to figure out the fancy deck list format.
I'll stick with things that can swing for damage generally. If you want thalia effects, play more thalia. There's no reason to play thorn.
The point of the hatebears deck is to play bears that hate in some way. Beefy creatures that in some way slow the opponent down, or limit their actions. The goal is NOT to do complete lockdowns. The goal is to slow your opponent down long enough for a loxodon smiter to bash his face in before his combo goes off.
If you pack too much pure "hate", like thorn, defense grid, etc...you end up sacrificing the "bear" aspect of the deck.
Thoughts? Anyone else having this issue?
Or a wonderful, grinchy idea i had.
Suture priest? Not a good answer, but at this point i'm angry enough to take a "don't care if i lose to everything but twin" build to fnm. We just need another linvala-esque hatebear.
I like the runed halo idea. You could preemptively just name resto angel or whatever other stupid thing they'll combo out with. UWR twin though is my own personal vietnam. I just can't seem to get there as consistently as I like. Thalia doesn't stop kiki, and linvala as a 1 of just isnt consistent enough to see reliably. Most of our other tools don't really stop what they're trying to do like they do with pod.
Cruel control? No problem. I have a good friend that plays it. Here's what you do. If you arent running 4 smiters and at least 2 wilt leaf, you can do that. Basically keep pressure on through the whole game. Be sure to save your smiters and leiges in hand for cruel ultimatum. when it happens, you just "discard" them onto the field, and then next turn swing for probably lethal.
Then pee on his cards to assert dominance.
I figure by turn 6-7 hard combo decks like twin or storm need to be facing lethal or as close to it as possible on the board. If you take much longer than that you'll simply get beaten far too often by combos. Those decks are designed to consistently go off. Thats what they do. The purpose of "classic" hatebears is to slow them getting to that combo, and to hopefully bring them to zero life before it can go off. Because given enough time, it will go off. Combos dominate modern, and if you ignore that in your build, you're going to have a bad time.
4 mindcensors is just too many. The obvious problem being, i don't really ever want to see multiples. I especially never want there to be multiples on the board. I run two, and i've found that to be pretty good. I could see 3 if your meta was search heavy (lots of pod and stuff). If you're getting hosed on the ground, i have to wonder what you're playing against. Thrun and smiters are usually the biggest baddest dudes around. Elspeth also does wonders in locked up boards. Just jump a smiter and get in for 7. No need for excessive amounts of mindcensors.
Also, baneslayer is crazy efficient for the price. Run two of those and a linvala. Elspeth or rancor/swords are also great for pushing damage through.
Round 1:
played against some sort of team italia + green build. He took the first game, I mulled to 6 and still didn't draw gas. Game 2, I was able to crap out several smiters that got the job done. Game 3, once again didn't draw into anything larger than a noble hierarch or arbiter.
0-1
Round 2:
Bye. This is annoying but oh well. Ill take free points.
1-1
Round 3:
Played against UWR twin. The first game went very long, however I was able to suit up a Thrun with sword of WAP and he got there. I was sitting on path to exile the entire game hoping he wouldnt topdeck twin. Game 2 we didn't finish because we went to time. It was mostly a stalled board state with splinter twin on a wall of omens.
All I'll say is that Thalia is soooo good in this matchup.
2-1
Round 4:
Played against 8 rack. There are actually quite a few 8 rack decks in this meta. I have no idea why. Its not a very good deck in my opinion. Anyway, game 1 I simply beat face faster than he could discard. Liliana threw a smiter onto the field and I was able to take contol. Game 2 I put in chalice and played it for 1. That pretty much left most of his deck in his hands and unplayable.
3-1
Round 5:
Played against Affinity. In accordance with prophecy I lost game 1. Boarded in EE, and Chalice of the void for game 2. Chalice for 0 on the play basically made him not have much of an early game. I was able to EE a couple vault skirges and my hatebears got there. Game 3, same deal. He had a slow start which was lucky for me. Once again Chalice for 0 slowed him way down and I was able to put it away pretty easily.
Round 6:
Played against Pod. In both games, mirran crusaders came out and were able to beat face the whole time with impunity. Arbiters and Qasali pridemages also made the matchup way easier. Not a very stressul matchup.
5-1.
At this point they split to top 8. I technically was in first with 15 points. So good night for the bears. Felt good to take down a decent sized local tourney. Gives me hope that I'm not just pissing in the wind with this deck and that we have something. Final thoughts: mirran crusader is staying. he's too good. Swords are awesome. I didnt feel like anything in the deck was out of place. I think i'm staying with my current loadout barring any new additions from JOU. Going to start prepping for GPT next weekend, and GP minneapolis next month.
Up the bears!
Also Elspeth is staying in my deck as well. I'm never really sorry to see her. Even in rare cases where i'm way behind on board, she provides ample distraction allowing me to regroup. She's an all-star
Yeah you're right about seals. I can probably stand to cut them. What are some suggestions to go in that spot? EE? Another worship?
As far as wilt-leaf, the only other thing I'll say is that there are a few cruel control decks lurking about in my meta. Nothing makes me happier than dumping a hand full of leiges and smiters when it goes off. But yeah, I could cut them. Ugh. It doesn't make me happy though. So much of the time I just find myself wanting a way to just do some face punching, and the 2/2's don't always get there on their own merits before some sort of combo goes off. Wilt leaf adds a splash of urgency to the deck that I think is lacking sometimes.
I do also find myself wanting another dork a lot of the time. I may have to add a 6th dork. I'm always happy to see them.
Thanks for the suggestions. Much appreciated.
That said, pridemage is really really good. I dunno.
3x horizon canopy
2x gavony township
4x Ghost quarter
14 other color producing lands
4x noble hierarch
1x Birds of paradise
4x Path to exile
4x Leonin Arbiter
2x Scavenging Ooze
3x Voice of Resurgence
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Aven Mindcensor
4x Loxodon Smiter
2x Mirran Crusader
2x Sword of War and Peace
1x Worship
1x Elspeth, knight-errant
1x Thrun
2x Wilt-leaf leige
1x Baneslayer Angel
Sideboard:
2x Chalice of the Void
2x Seal of Primordium
2x Torpor Orb
1x Linvala
1x Kataki, War's wage
2x Stony Silence
2x Qasali Pridemage
2x Rest in Peace
2x Spellskite
1x Worship
It's a relatively unknown meta for me. I predict a lot of pod and tarmo-twin type builds. Heavy green in both so I like the crusader. I hate only having 1 baneslayer but i just dont know where to cut. I'll report back after tonight.
Edit: sorry for formatting. I'm at work and don't want to take the time to figure out the fancy deck list format.
The point of the hatebears deck is to play bears that hate in some way. Beefy creatures that in some way slow the opponent down, or limit their actions. The goal is NOT to do complete lockdowns. The goal is to slow your opponent down long enough for a loxodon smiter to bash his face in before his combo goes off.
If you pack too much pure "hate", like thorn, defense grid, etc...you end up sacrificing the "bear" aspect of the deck.
The best kind of hate is life total hate.