I never said he wasn´t a cheater. And if the DCI came to that conclusion, i do not doubt their decision.
I only had problems with some of the arguments, and some more with the "evidence".
But maybe thats just my fault, because i go more in the line of scientific proof.
My thought was that: Both players are resposible for randomizing the deck.
If boettchers opponent is not a cheater himself, then the deck he presented should be fully randomized.
Not knowing any cards in the deck, does boettcher´s shuffling have any influence on the deck? Can it make the deck more or less random than before?
I think the answer to that is no, a random deck stays random, AND it either is random or its not. So as long as he doesn´t know the cards, whatever
shuffle he uses can´t be cheating, for if a ranmdom deck was presented, it stays random.
That does only change if he knows the position of one or more of the cards. If he know the bottom card, and shuffels it up, then its not random anymore, therefore its cheating.
So, to proof he was cheating, you have to proof he knows(or at least could know) the position of one of the cards. But the videos i looked at (again, i didn´t see them all) he was looking away while shuffeling.
Also, some of the videos thats where shown as proof didn´t show his face at all.
But as someone posted, law might see evidence a little diffrent from science.
But since a scientific view of the matter seem to put me on the same level as cheaters and even holocaust deniers, i dont think i will be further involved in such discussions.
Have a nice day.
The guy is shuffling with the card face pointing toward him.
The overhead camera can see the cardface. He would have a clearer view than the camera.
Magic isnt science. The scientific burden of proof cant exist because experiments must be repeatable. Here we have social observations. Claiming to be a man of science thats just rubbish. <I hope you do remove yourself from future discussions because you have zero credibilty and I will treat all further comments from you with the short shrift they deserve.>
I am not defending him. I have no idea if he is a cheater, in fact i agree that there are indications he might be.
But i am not agreeing with the so-called evidence, and lest with the arguments.
You are aware, shodai, that by poster X argument, i have to be sure you are a cheater, because i never saw you when you were not cheating? despite the fact i never saw you at all?
Your just as bad as the cheaters. I hope you get yours in life. Its like we have the Holocaust deniers here.
The rules are quite clear. You cant look at the cards. Its not hard. Its not unclear. You would have to be a ******* ****** to even shuffle in a manner that could be perceived the wrong way. Why even open yourself up to the possibility of being called out when the alternative (looking away/keeping the exposed cardface away) takes no effort at all.
I don't think he cheated.
In the SCG video, we can't see his eyes, so we can't be sure that he even saw the bottom card.
But in regards to his punishment, that probably wasn't correct at all.
In the official announcement, it said that this was repeated. However, we have no other footage of him cheating in other events.
Also, to warrant them stripping his ROTY title, he would have had to do something outside of SCG events, because they have no standing on the ROTY race. We have no footage of that, either.
I may be wrong about this, but unless WOTC can prove what it is alleging, then I cannot and will not believe that he cheated.
1 you didn't see him NOT look at the bottom card. Every other action he took was consistent with actions that would be taken if you knew what the card was and wanted to cheat.
2 there is other footage. And that is not even relevant. They do other things than look at footage in an investigation
3 the dci over see all sanctioned mtg events. It's the dci's judge staff that attends all SCGs events.
He is free to attend non dci events.
You seriously joined mtgs JUST to defend bocheater?
From watching a player who top 8 a ptq I would say you are not playing this card to its full potential. I suggest not running it out immediately. Wait for a specific moment.eg build board and when your opp is low on cards he most likely has one answer card in hand. Play this and they are stuck top decking for a way to get the answer back.
No side gets to demand a better deal. Usually the more desperate side will give away some perceived value.
In competitve play, placing well is enough to pay for the staples. Ive seen plenty of people overpay for goyfs. What are their options? Not play legacy events until they get lop sided trades in their favor?
Yes, it is Wizards' responsibility to keep the game fun, which helps sell their product. It is the players' responsibility to actually learn the game, learn to play against different strategies, and learn to deal with 'unfun' situations. What is essentially happening here, is the game is becoming far more creature focused, which is a problem in my opinion. Player's have to learn to deal with what happens, good and bad. It's only a game, you can scoop up and play again. Try to get better at it, don't just sit around and complain. I understand there are instances where a ban may be needed, but for the most part, the player's need to learn to deal with the game plays with all the strategies that can be viable. Removing something because it is 'unfun' is the easy way, but unfortunately that is what the majority wants.
I take issue with you saying it is what the majority wants.
It is certainly not the majority. It is a vocal minority and even then, thats not the real reason for these changes.
Didnt wotc say the playerbase was 8 million +? A majority would be feedback from over 4 million respondents.
Of the hundreds of regulars to stores in my city, I have never met domeone who was so anti LD as to complain. I remrmber only one person who was whining about draw go being 'not fair'
The argument is deeper than whether it is unfun or player surveys. If they really listened to feedback we would have power 9 abur duals by now.
Ps. Who even writes to wotc to tell them the game is unfun?
There's a video of him possibly cheating. Whether he actually was or not is up for the DCI to decide. Sometimes, mistakes or sloppy play look very bad, and it's easy for the community to declare it "cheating" only for the DCI to disagree. The community is overwhelmingly biased against potential cheating, to the point where the community would rather condemn someone for making a mistake than allowing a potential cheater to walk free, which is why it's up to an independent judge review considering all available information (not just publicly-available information) and player/witness testimony rather than them just watching a video and snap-declaring guilt.
Innocent until proven guilty, after all, and it's not the public's job to determine guilt.
Your comments are idiotic and I dont agree in the slightest.
Innocent until proven guilty doesnt apply in this case.
If that were true, accusations would be enough to get someone DQ'd, banned, etc - clearly it's not, so clearly it DOES play a role in some form.
Those in glass houses... oh you know the rest I assume.
Actually SCG or wotc/dci dont have to PROVE anything. They investigate andcome to a conclusion. They can make decisions based on hearsay or the word of plyers/officials. How did the dci operate before filmed games were ever used? This isnt a court of law. Your legal principles mean *****all. If they feel he is suss they will punish him. Its that simple. Scg can bar him from events even if he doesnt get punished by the dci.
There's a video of him possibly cheating. Whether he actually was or not is up for the DCI to decide. Sometimes, mistakes or sloppy play look very bad, and it's easy for the community to declare it "cheating" only for the DCI to disagree. The community is overwhelmingly biased against potential cheating, to the point where the community would rather condemn someone for making a mistake than allowing a potential cheater to walk free, which is why it's up to an independent judge review considering all available information (not just publicly-available information) and player/witness testimony rather than them just watching a video and snap-declaring guilt.
Innocent until proven guilty, after all, and it's not the public's job to determine guilt.
<Your comments are idiotic> and I dont agree in the slightest.
Innocent until proven guilty doesnt apply in this case. This is a private company running events and they can do as they please. Where the hell did you get these criminal law type comparisons from? There is no taxpayer funded police force to investigate this. There is no unlimited resource prosecuting team or judge ruled court to hear this.
Its on a trvial scale in terms of societal consequences. But there are real consequences for the TOs credibility andthe people who were cheated.
Banning him from mtg sanctioned events for life doesnt affect his freedoms and really is not a punishment that hurts his prospects in life IN THE SLIGHTEST. It does prvent him from affecting sanctioned tournaments ever again. IT DOESN'T EVEN PREVENT HIM FROM PLAYING MTG EVER AGAIN!
The most likely is a slap on the wrist because thats the precedent and for profit corporations really arent going to say no to card sales and entry fees unless his presence leads to a visible decrease in attendence.
What a ridiculous thread. The tone used is unnecessary and verges on mass flaming. If mods did there job around here you would be warned.
Cards being played in standard do not make a set 'good'
People have a right to come on a discussion forum and point out perceived failures in a product they care about.
In the end its only sales matter and those 'complainers' will lead to lower sales.
Sorry, where are you getting the idea that those GPs will be Limited formats, let alone all the same format? Actually, have a look at the article where the schedule was announced. Lots of GPs are listed as "Limited" without specifying a Limited format. The May 30-31 GPs being marked as TBA therefore does not suggest that their format has already been decided but is concealed because the set is yet to be announced. Rather, it most likely is what is claimed: that they simply haven't decided yet. They haven't even decided if they will be Limited or Constructed.
Because it is a full 2 months after the Louie release. Why would they give a format that's been explored and generally done to death for that long (at that point, it will almost be spoiler season for the next block!) the spotlight? It makes no sense to pack 3 GPs right in a row, with the continent distribution that they have..... for a limited format that is already stale. Combine that with the fact that Modern gets 3 GPs right after, and I don't think its unreasonable to look at that set of facts and conclude that Wizards has a big Modern product that is playable as a Limited format* in the pipeline.
* This doesn't mean "Modern Masters", but since that's the only previous product that fits those two qualifiers, its not an unreasonable extrapolation.
So WHY is it TBA? You said yourself that it is Limited. Logic would say that these GPs would have the format determined. Maybe a 21st anniversary event and the format is still being decided?
dragons are mostly crappy cards. A lot of people are tired of this garbage uninspired dragons/angels/nerdloversfranchise appearing in pretty much every set. FFS wotc do something original for once.
how many boxes you guys think we need to buy to get complete playsets for all fetches ???
Why would you do that, when you can just wait until MTGO redemption starts, then buy 4 complete sets for (probably) in the USD 400-450 range including postage, and get 4 of all the mythics too?
Its become very apparent that most mtgs users cant/wont understand the concept of mtgo redemptions. Its funnier when yhese users post in market street.
Come on people. There is a cap on in print cards prices.
The guy is shuffling with the card face pointing toward him.
The overhead camera can see the cardface. He would have a clearer view than the camera.
Magic isnt science. The scientific burden of proof cant exist because experiments must be repeatable. Here we have social observations. Claiming to be a man of science thats just rubbish.
<I hope you do remove yourself from future discussions because you have zero credibilty and I will treat all further comments from you with the short shrift they deserve.>
Flaming Warning -Cythare
Your just as bad as the cheaters. I hope you get yours in life. Its like we have the Holocaust deniers here.
The rules are quite clear. You cant look at the cards. Its not hard. Its not unclear. You would have to be a ******* ****** to even shuffle in a manner that could be perceived the wrong way. Why even open yourself up to the possibility of being called out when the alternative (looking away/keeping the exposed cardface away) takes no effort at all.
1 you didn't see him NOT look at the bottom card. Every other action he took was consistent with actions that would be taken if you knew what the card was and wanted to cheat.
2 there is other footage. And that is not even relevant. They do other things than look at footage in an investigation
3 the dci over see all sanctioned mtg events. It's the dci's judge staff that attends all SCGs events.
He is free to attend non dci events.
You seriously joined mtgs JUST to defend bocheater?
In competitve play, placing well is enough to pay for the staples. Ive seen plenty of people overpay for goyfs. What are their options? Not play legacy events until they get lop sided trades in their favor?
I take issue with you saying it is what the majority wants.
It is certainly not the majority. It is a vocal minority and even then, thats not the real reason for these changes.
Didnt wotc say the playerbase was 8 million +? A majority would be feedback from over 4 million respondents.
Of the hundreds of regulars to stores in my city, I have never met domeone who was so anti LD as to complain. I remrmber only one person who was whining about draw go being 'not fair'
The argument is deeper than whether it is unfun or player surveys. If they really listened to feedback we would have power 9 abur duals by now.
Ps. Who even writes to wotc to tell them the game is unfun?
Actually SCG or wotc/dci dont have to PROVE anything. They investigate andcome to a conclusion. They can make decisions based on hearsay or the word of plyers/officials. How did the dci operate before filmed games were ever used? This isnt a court of law. Your legal principles mean *****all. If they feel he is suss they will punish him. Its that simple. Scg can bar him from events even if he doesnt get punished by the dci.
<Your comments are idiotic> and I dont agree in the slightest.
Innocent until proven guilty doesnt apply in this case. This is a private company running events and they can do as they please. Where the hell did you get these criminal law type comparisons from? There is no taxpayer funded police force to investigate this. There is no unlimited resource prosecuting team or judge ruled court to hear this.
Its on a trvial scale in terms of societal consequences. But there are real consequences for the TOs credibility andthe people who were cheated.
Banning him from mtg sanctioned events for life doesnt affect his freedoms and really is not a punishment that hurts his prospects in life IN THE SLIGHTEST. It does prvent him from affecting sanctioned tournaments ever again. IT DOESN'T EVEN PREVENT HIM FROM PLAYING MTG EVER AGAIN!
The most likely is a slap on the wrist because thats the precedent and for profit corporations really arent going to say no to card sales and entry fees unless his presence leads to a visible decrease in attendence.
Trolling Warning -Cythare
Seriously this thresd needs to be closed asap
Cards being played in standard do not make a set 'good'
People have a right to come on a discussion forum and point out perceived failures in a product they care about.
In the end its only sales matter and those 'complainers' will lead to lower sales.
So WHY is it TBA? You said yourself that it is Limited. Logic would say that these GPs would have the format determined. Maybe a 21st anniversary event and the format is still being decided?
And nows your chance to get out. You have no excuse when it dumpsters back to $3
I think you need to go learn the difference between hard and conditional.
This card isnt as bad as ppl are making out. Sure it is meta dependent.
Its become very apparent that most mtgs users cant/wont understand the concept of mtgo redemptions. Its funnier when yhese users post in market street.
Come on people. There is a cap on in print cards prices.