This is a more planeswalker focused build. My only issue is with 3 liliana I can't really run any basic lands because I need to have double black, double white and blue quickly. With 4 lingering souls the life loss usually isn't a huge issue since I can stall pretty well.
I hate to sound like a jerk, but to be honest I would prefer if atleast some of the legacy events were replaced by modern or standard events. Those latter 2 formats are so much more reasonable and accessible for many players to play. A viable legacy deck can cost thousands, with the lands costing upwards past $100 EACH. As a younger player and like many other players I know, it's not practical for me to spend hundreds of dollars on a manabase alone. I hope to some day be able to play legacy, but it's just so expensive >_>
There are PLENTY of standard and modern events covered by wizards. Also, if you're very invested in the modern/standard format, you will definitely be spending the equivalent or more than a legacy deck.
On the general discussion, as long as the invitationals retain the same format, I think there will continue to be legacy opens and support.
Point guys is G1 is unwinnable. I do not want to start 0-1 vs all the rites out there. Sure, a couple of cremates do not change a lot, but do not treat this as a mere card advantage issue. We need to deal with the fact that reanimator, and junk in particular is currently probaly the best placing deck in the format.
G1 isn't unwinnable at all, at least against junk rites. You need to leave mana up a lot, but it is doable.
Running more counterspells like think twice or dissipate makes it better (i still don't like more than the 2 dissipate for deckbuilding reasons, though...), since you can exile their unburial, or make them hesitate on acting it because you're telegraphing a counter (this doesn't happen that often). Often they'll go for advantage with angel of seren, either unburying or hard casting, and you can respond to the trigger with removal to make them lose their targets.
anyway, I haven't found it unwinnable, just hard. It is for every deck, that's why Junk rites is top right now. Cremate is not enough to change the tides considerably, but if your meta has a ton of rites decks, then yeah it's pretty good, and you should be able to find room. Don't drop more than 1 think twice though, I would think. You might actually be able to side 1 sphinx's.
Food for thought: with Junk Rites popularity on the rise, has anybody tried a couple of cremates MD in think twice slots?
That's seems like an awful idea. The early hand advantage from think twice is often essential to dominating g1. Cremate is a side at best, and rest in peace or purify the grave are just better.
Edit: Although I have not tested it recently, vampire nighthawk seems criminally underplayed. It's no clock like obzedat, but It's essentially targeted creature removal that can also gain life over turns. It might go best in the 75 of a build with sorins or a planeswalker build in general, idk just a thought.
But Witchbane also stops the Ultimate too, which as stated before, is by far our biggest threat.
Edit: While I didn't play last night at a local tournament due to other commitments, I stopped by for the first hours and saw tons of Needles and Orbs as hate, mainly as ways to stop our win conditions. How many Oblivion Rings/ Detention Spheres are recommended to take care of them? Right now I'm running 2 spheres in the board, but is that enough? If they kill them, how do we take care of it?
I was playing a game last night where I got a slaughter games on t4 hitting a sphinx's in my hand, and then a huntmaster turn 5 and rakdos's return turn 6 leaving me with 1 card in hand. It took multiple think twice and resto on augur, but I was still able to build back up and win through multiple thragtusks and the like. Also, unless they're hellbent, as long as you discard correctly, Liliana doesn't hurt that bad. You do have to answer her, but you should have some number of restoration angle, as well as at least 2 planeswalker killers, either d sphere or planar cleansing, maindecked.
Not attempting to win is not a DQable offense. Better players will scoop in time, but the onus is on them, not us.
@Braden: If you go to time in G2 and no-one wins, then you will win the round 1-0-1.
You can get a game/match loss however. And I believe with enough warnings for unsportsmanlike conduct (ie stalling), you can get dq'd.
Regardless, this is not the correct way to play the deck, and it shouldn't be played that way to win. If you rely on playing that way, you will lose legitimate matches because of it, because you need to know how to play g2 and 3 as well.
On walkers, it depends on the Meta. It may also be that you want a small amount of walkers either for early game (Liliana/jace architect) or as win conditions.
I never go in with the assumption I'm getting 3 games. Unless the opponent scoops to go on to a new game the most common match results seem to be 1-0, 1-1, or 0-2.
You're playing badly, then. You should be able to keep the game moving fast enough to not go to time that often, unless it'sa mirror match. Esper isn't like the control decks that would just shuffle their decks back and take forever, once you start your mill engine, you should win quickly. And the creatures that this deck might use, like obzedat, have a fast clock, so that shouldnt be an issue.
Also, if you are actively trying to force games to go long, that is cheating and won't work on better players.
I felt like it was pretty strong in theory, but knew it had some tough matchups, and sure enough...I played Grixis, Esper (plenty of Supreme Verdicts and Ultimate Prices), and then R/B zombies (Aristocrat/Messengers) going 1-2 and then dropping. Despite the bad record I feel like there were some positives...
First off...to explain a few things, Deathrite Shaman is a bad card if you're anything but BUG. Yea, it's in a relevant creature type, but I needed Emissary to fix my mana...which is deceptively complex. You want early red, early blue, and you need your Arbor Elves active right away. Emissary helps cast Rade on command (in addition to the Shaman not evolving your Gyre Sage). It was also just a fun card to hit off a Soul of the Harvest, or into Visionary.
About the matchups...I didn't feel like any were unwinnable. In fact, Esper is just a dreadful matchup and managed to lose 1-2. Domri Rade came out early in game 1, and just kept ticking up (not a lot of removal for planeswalkers in Esper pre-board) until the ultimate popped off. Verdict slowed me down, but an Archdruid with hexproof, double strike, trample, haste, and a six mana to dump into a Wolf Run got me the game. 2nd and 3rd games were long, and drawn out, but Verdict proved to be too much, and Nighthawk got licks in on Rade. Domri is just a fantastic card, and I can't sing its praises enough.
I really think this is the deck Rade has his home in. Plus I like the sound of Elf Rade as a name for the deck.
Obviously, finding room for four MB spells (only 4), cutting one land (likely a forest), and getting rid of the Behemoths is where I'd like to go from here. I flooded in both series I lost, along with not having a real SB plan. Pillar of Flame evidently needs some loving, seeing as how zombies appear to be making a minor comeback, as are mana dorks galore.
I probably need 4 Thundermaws as well for the Esper match.
Anyway, thoughts and criticisms on my build would be welcome. I'd like to keep it RUG, as I felt like Domri was invaluable in every matchup except against B/R, though the fight ability came in handy. I just didn't board in enough removal (my SB was dedicated to dealing with Jund and to a lesser extent, Esper).
If you're able to drop soul of harvest, you should just be winning outright with something else, imo. However, I like a lot about this, and it looks like a good red version.
When I get a chance, I'll update the op so it has white, red, UG, and maybe black versions.
Board wipes are really the worst thing I can face, which is the main reason for negate, gutter grime, and revelation, just so I don't run out of gas against control. Tree of redemption really helps against the aggro matchup, especially if you also have a smiter. Still extremely awkward if archdruid or arbor elf get burned though.
Restoration Angel, to no one's surprise I'm sure, is a super all star here. I may replace clone with two more of her.
I'm also thinking about losing visionary. It's not great and archdruid usually taps for enough without her.
The mana base needs some tweaking, but I want to find a way to do it without using guildgates. I'm considering finding some room for prophetic prism or chromatic lantern
Elvish visionary is imo one of the best cards in the deck. It's a cantrip'ing elf, what more do you want?.
What I seemed to be hooked on is his final ability of exiling everything. And the fact no one has though of misthollow griffin variants + rest in peace. Imagine wiping the board and then bringing down a 2/2 flier plus what's left of Gideon. Would really like to see a deck list on it. Great primer btw I'm loving it
I'm currently running Shaheen Soorani's Superfriends list, and I kind of like the idea of Stolen Identity in the SB as a one or two-of. The cmc is a bit costly, but against green decks, it could do some work.
Any thoughts on this?
throwing identity on a reaver would certainly be impressive
4x Drowned Catacomb
4x Glacial Fortress
3x Godless Shrine
4x Hallowed Fountain
4x Isolated Chapel
3x Nephalia Drownyard
4x Watery Grave
4x Azorius Charm
2x Dissipate
2x Far / Away
3x Sphinx's Revelation
4x Think Twice
2x Warped Physique
2x Jace, Architect of Thought
3x Liliana of the Veil
1x Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1x Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
Sorcery (10)
4x Lingering Souls
2x Supreme Verdict
4x Terminus
This is a more planeswalker focused build. My only issue is with 3 liliana I can't really run any basic lands because I need to have double black, double white and blue quickly. With 4 lingering souls the life loss usually isn't a huge issue since I can stall pretty well.
There are PLENTY of standard and modern events covered by wizards. Also, if you're very invested in the modern/standard format, you will definitely be spending the equivalent or more than a legacy deck.
On the general discussion, as long as the invitationals retain the same format, I think there will continue to be legacy opens and support.
3 Augur of Bolas
1 Obzedat, Ghost Council
2 Restoration Angel
2 Snapcaster Mate
Other spells: 25
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Detention Sphere
1 Planar Cleansing
4 Supreme Verdict
1 Ultimate Price
1 Victim of Night
2 Devour Flesh
4 Think Twice
2 Dissipate
4 Azorius Charm
4 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Isolated Chapel
2 Watery Grave
2 Godless Shrine
4 Nephalia Drownyard
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
Side: 15
1 Angel of Serenity
1 Evil Twin
1 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Gloom Surgeon
1 Witchbane Orb
1 Rest in Peace
2 Jace, Memory Adept
2 Duress
1 Planar Cleansing
1 Negate
1 Dispel
1 Psychic Spiral
I kind of want to run more rest in peace (3), but it wasn't testing well.
4
I've seen a couple lists like this on mtgo. Very odd.
4 sorin, etc., I mean.
G1 isn't unwinnable at all, at least against junk rites. You need to leave mana up a lot, but it is doable.
Running more counterspells like think twice or dissipate makes it better (i still don't like more than the 2 dissipate for deckbuilding reasons, though...), since you can exile their unburial, or make them hesitate on acting it because you're telegraphing a counter (this doesn't happen that often). Often they'll go for advantage with angel of seren, either unburying or hard casting, and you can respond to the trigger with removal to make them lose their targets.
anyway, I haven't found it unwinnable, just hard. It is for every deck, that's why Junk rites is top right now. Cremate is not enough to change the tides considerably, but if your meta has a ton of rites decks, then yeah it's pretty good, and you should be able to find room. Don't drop more than 1 think twice though, I would think. You might actually be able to side 1 sphinx's.
That's seems like an awful idea. The early hand advantage from think twice is often essential to dominating g1. Cremate is a side at best, and rest in peace or purify the grave are just better.
Edit: Although I have not tested it recently, vampire nighthawk seems criminally underplayed. It's no clock like obzedat, but It's essentially targeted creature removal that can also gain life over turns. It might go best in the 75 of a build with sorins or a planeswalker build in general, idk just a thought.
Planar cleansing.
And sphere. I don't think ring is needed.
You can get a game/match loss however. And I believe with enough warnings for unsportsmanlike conduct (ie stalling), you can get dq'd.
Regardless, this is not the correct way to play the deck, and it shouldn't be played that way to win. If you rely on playing that way, you will lose legitimate matches because of it, because you need to know how to play g2 and 3 as well.
On walkers, it depends on the Meta. It may also be that you want a small amount of walkers either for early game (Liliana/jace architect) or as win conditions.
You're playing badly, then. You should be able to keep the game moving fast enough to not go to time that often, unless it'sa mirror match. Esper isn't like the control decks that would just shuffle their decks back and take forever, once you start your mill engine, you should win quickly. And the creatures that this deck might use, like obzedat, have a fast clock, so that shouldnt be an issue.
Also, if you are actively trying to force games to go long, that is cheating and won't work on better players.
If you're able to drop soul of harvest, you should just be winning outright with something else, imo. However, I like a lot about this, and it looks like a good red version.
When I get a chance, I'll update the op so it has white, red, UG, and maybe black versions.
Elvish visionary is imo one of the best cards in the deck. It's a cantrip'ing elf, what more do you want?.
gideon exiles lands, so that wouldn't work well.
throwing identity on a reaver would certainly be impressive