I'm open to suggestions, but more than anything I'd like to see if there are others out there playing something like this, to see if we can find the best version.
I did play Temur Charger before I played Dragon's Eye Savants and sometimes the trample helps, but its often not very good since the creatures are small.
The idea behind Ghostfire Blade is giving the deck a bit more speed, especially with the Ornithopters.
Hopefully Magic Origins brings some good tools, perhaps more artifact creatures
Well, I guess I sort of qualify as one of the people you want to work with, since I've tried this:
I know my version is too slow, although that judgement is biased by the fact that I never seem to draw the Aethers. I am thinking about Elvish Mystics. There is also a thread somewhere around here working on a Bant version that could be mined for ideas. I am leery of the Ornithopters, as they only seem to be good with the Blades.
I think my next testing will involve: -4 Den Protector, -2 Trail of Mystery, +4 Elvish Mystic, +1 Nylea, +1 Polukranos; but welcome feedback. The sideboard should probably contain some number of Arbor Colossi, Windstorm or Plummet.
Congratulations! That's great.
I built a version with Whisperwoods, Deathmists and Den Protectors. In very limited testing, it is just way too slow.
It's not clear what you want here. If you are looking for suggestions and want to add punch to the deck, you could consider rocket donkey (Temur Charger). It flips for free and with a blade, can pack a wallop. If you didn't want suggestions, then please forget I said anything ...
I didn't initially think that Chandra would work very well. I now see multiple cards in Origins that really facilitate her flipping: Chandra's Ignition, Titan's Strength and Subterranean Scout. Fiery Conclusion could conceivably be used to help flip both Liliana and Chandra.
It is clear to me that Wizards is seeding cards in at least this set to facilitate the use of these walkers. There might even be cards in the last few sets that serve a similar purpose. Even Rending Volley, Atarka's Command or Draconic Roar can be cast after declaring attackers, but before blockers are declared to untap her and clear out blockers.
I am now withholding judgement until I see the entire set. Of course, if she does turn out to be good, then she will have a target painted on her head and "dies to removal" will apply. But that will only happen if she is good.
She doesn't seem splashable and I don't see how she fits in the R decks that are currently burning my face off. It is not clear to me that getting her through is better than just playing a Thunderbreak Regent. It does seem like casting the spells that will get her through will contribute to both Prowess and Spell Mastery, so if there are decks that use them, she might fit.
If you are interested in big mana, Temur and Deathmist/Den Protector, then Rattleclaw Mystic seems perfect for you. When Caryatid rotates, Rattleclaw should pick up and, even if there is some new dork in Battle for Zendikar, it is unlikely to be morph based and interact so favorably with Deathmist/Den Protector. The only dork revealed in Origins so far seems inferior. Sarkhan Unbroken was suggested above and he could work in the deck you seem to want to move to. With Temur not being FOTM, he is relatively affordable and he provides both power and ramp to play Atarka or whatever other bomb comes along.
And speaking of Dragonlord Atarka, she is a choice finisher in the current environment and a worthy candidate to pick up.
The Thunderbreak Regent mentioned above seems likely to be a part of both dedicated R and G/R decks also. Savage Knuckleblade has mostly been a disappointment, but he could be a speculative pick up as well if you plan to play those colors. Stratus Dancer is another card that seems compatible with the other morphs and a Temur deck.
Assuming that a significant number of Dragons are in your deck, the Haven of the Spirit Dragon seems useful.
You could look at the latest iteration of Temur for ideas and either confirmation or negation. Beware that you don't use it as confirmation of my suggestions, as I already used it as a source of ideas.
Aaand can single-handedly enable a Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh flip. Use Chandra to ping, cast Scout (Chandra untaps) targeting Chandra, then she can swing unblockably, which will fulfill the conditions for her to flip. Actually, this doesn't work. Chandra can only flip off her ping ability, so a red spell would need to be cast after declare attackers to untap her before she could ping again and then flip.
Also perfect partner for Honored Hierarch. Turn 1 Honored Hierarch, turn 2 Subterranean Scout to make it unblockable: 2/2 vigilance 1-drop that taps for any color mana.
In addition to the above advice, which seems generally good to me (except Sylvan Guide, which I am not familiar with and some of the advice seems too unequivocal). I have only really paid attention to two rotations, but I have seen a pattern. At the first pro tour after rotation, the best decks were significantly changed. If you can hold out until then (mid-October-ish), you will save the most. To start a collection :
buy the G fetchlands now (Wooded Foothills, Windswept Heath)
If you want a bigger collection and are willing to afford more cards: buy all the fetchlands, as I believe they will only go up from here. After rotation, I expect that you will be able to trade the ones you don't want for what you need for the deck you want.
If you want to play Standard Constructed before rotation, I would just get the cards, as they have already lost much of their value.
If you really want to minimize losses, factor in the information about what cards will lose value at rotation at mtggoldfish: Born of the Gods, Theros and more to come. Google for similar articles and factor in your own judgement.
You're welcome! It's a pleasure to help someone who is willing to try suggestions out.
The deck seems good. I haven't run Strength from the Fallen myself, so you are more of an expert than I am at this point.
More advice (you asked, I think):
Make a sideboard: You can customize the deck for the matchup. You play more sideboarded games than not. Look at what Andrew Cuneo had in his sideboard for the Strength from the Fallen deck he was running.
Options to improve the Aggro matchup:
The Whip of Erebos and Bow of Nylea both have lifegain that makes aggro decks cry. They are slow, so I recommend you try, but I don't guarantee results
Against devotion:
the Marauder is worth a try, but it seems suboptimal in terms of synergy, so I'm curious but somewhat skeptical;
I had hopes that the Herald would be good as, even when the bestowed upon creature gets killed by Atarka or Polukranos, the Herald survives;
when I ran GB Constellation/Devotion, I would bring Nylea in from the sideboard against G devotion, because of trample and the pump ability, while you wouldn't use the pumping, the trample seems relevant;
the newer answer is Den Protector's ability to avoid blockers with power less than hers, you could pump her up before combat with an enchantment, much merriment may be possible with bestowed Boon Satyrs (a good card) or Feral Invocation (not a good card) as they both have flash;
adding another color for a single matchup seems like a big deal, and BGR is not a combination with a handy tri-land so, while Rage is a great card, I would try other solutions first.
I am curious about the lack of sweepers, whether Drown, End or Crux. Was it a lack of space, or do you think they are bad in the matchup? I find Self-Inflicted Wound to also be an interesting choice and am curious about it.
Is this a usable card? Or is she too slow and too much work to see play outside of limited and uncompetitive brews?
Profitable ways to get her to flip:
Thanks dude, your analysis was on point. Probably I will need to find new threads because im having problems maintaining the tempo, but in the other side i want to stick with the constellation idea. What are your thoughts?
Yeah! What SweetSupremacy said! I'm really impressed. That is fabulous for your first outing. It seems like you played with a lot of awareness and learned quickly.
That said, I think that you may be near the ceiling of your original deck concept. Sure, you will be able to tweak it, but Wizards tests the cards before they release them. They don't release super-powerful cards as commons.
That leaves you at a crossroads. You said you would like to keep working with Constellation. Do you want to make the best Grim Guardian deck ever or do you want to explore potentially more powerful Constellation decks?
If you choose to stick with the Grim Guardians, you know that it is a slow burn. That means you need to keep a lid on what your opponent is doing for a long time or accelerate the damage done. Here are some possibilities, many of which can be combined:
Start using Whip of Erebos and filling the graveyard even more.
Look at what you can do with a U splash to fill the Graveyard, likely using Sidisi, like SweetSupremacy suggested.
I think Courser, Eidolon, Giant and Maggot are almost too good to cut in a GB constellation shell. That leaves Wayfinder, Mystic, Weaver, Commune, Despise, Reviving as spots to possibly improve or change.
Den Protector is not an enchantment, but she is a potent source of card advantage, particularly if you are dumping sweet stuff in the 'yard. Bestowing a Boon Satyr on her makes her almost unblockable.
Herald of Torment is an enchantment that can be bestowed on a Brain Maggot or an Eidolon to make an effectively hasty evasive threat.
Soldiers for Gideon - W obviously. Given how they split up slivers, I didn't expect any good targets for Preeminent Captain before this. Odds on a Captain of the Watch reprinting?
Elves for Nissa, that makes sense. Wait: B elves and no G elves (so far), what's up with that? (edit: now G elves)
Humans seem to be the U humanoid tribe.
A zombie for Liliana - makes sense. More vampires than zombies, which seems curious (edit: until I realize that her first walk is to Innistrad).
Goblins always seem appropriate in a "core set," and they are well represented so far.
G dryads. Now that I think about it, the Ravnica Selesnya Conclave was largely Dryads and Jace walks to Ravnica. It makes sense that he would interact with Selesnya and not Dimir, Izzit or Azorius as he seems to have connections to them later.
Well, I guess I sort of qualify as one of the people you want to work with, since I've tried this:
4 Den Protector
4 Rattleclaw Mystic
4 Temur Charger
4 Deathmist Raptor
4 Whisperwood Elemental
2 Sagu Mauler
2 Hooded Hydra
Spells
4 Ghostfire Blade
4 Obscuring Aether
4 Secret Plans
2 Trail of Mystery
9 Forest
4 Island
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4 Temple of Mystery
4 Yavimaya Coast
2 Ainok Survivalist
2 Setessan Tactics
4 Stratus Dancer
4 Hornet Nest
1 Nylea, God of the Hunt
1 Temur Sabertooth
1 Temur War Shaman
I know my version is too slow, although that judgement is biased by the fact that I never seem to draw the Aethers. I am thinking about Elvish Mystics. There is also a thread somewhere around here working on a Bant version that could be mined for ideas. I am leery of the Ornithopters, as they only seem to be good with the Blades.
I think my next testing will involve: -4 Den Protector, -2 Trail of Mystery, +4 Elvish Mystic, +1 Nylea, +1 Polukranos; but welcome feedback. The sideboard should probably contain some number of Arbor Colossi, Windstorm or Plummet.
I built a version with Whisperwoods, Deathmists and Den Protectors. In very limited testing, it is just way too slow.
It's not clear what you want here. If you are looking for suggestions and want to add punch to the deck, you could consider rocket donkey (Temur Charger). It flips for free and with a blade, can pack a wallop. If you didn't want suggestions, then please forget I said anything ...
It is clear to me that Wizards is seeding cards in at least this set to facilitate the use of these walkers. There might even be cards in the last few sets that serve a similar purpose. Even Rending Volley, Atarka's Command or Draconic Roar can be cast after declaring attackers, but before blockers are declared to untap her and clear out blockers.
I am now withholding judgement until I see the entire set. Of course, if she does turn out to be good, then she will have a target painted on her head and "dies to removal" will apply. But that will only happen if she is good.
She doesn't seem splashable and I don't see how she fits in the R decks that are currently burning my face off. It is not clear to me that getting her through is better than just playing a Thunderbreak Regent. It does seem like casting the spells that will get her through will contribute to both Prowess and Spell Mastery, so if there are decks that use them, she might fit.
Sarkhan Unbroken was suggested above and he could work in the deck you seem to want to move to. With Temur not being FOTM, he is relatively affordable and he provides both power and ramp to play Atarka or whatever other bomb comes along.
And speaking of Dragonlord Atarka, she is a choice finisher in the current environment and a worthy candidate to pick up.
The Thunderbreak Regent mentioned above seems likely to be a part of both dedicated R and G/R decks also.
Savage Knuckleblade has mostly been a disappointment, but he could be a speculative pick up as well if you plan to play those colors.
Stratus Dancer is another card that seems compatible with the other morphs and a Temur deck.
Assuming that a significant number of Dragons are in your deck, the Haven of the Spirit Dragon seems useful.
You could look at the latest iteration of Temur for ideas and either confirmation or negation. Beware that you don't use it as confirmation of my suggestions, as I already used it as a source of ideas.
Also perfect partner for Honored Hierarch. Turn 1 Honored Hierarch, turn 2 Subterranean Scout to make it unblockable: 2/2 vigilance 1-drop that taps for any color mana.
The deck seems good. I haven't run Strength from the Fallen myself, so you are more of an expert than I am at this point.
More advice (you asked, I think):
Make a sideboard: You can customize the deck for the matchup. You play more sideboarded games than not. Look at what Andrew Cuneo had in his sideboard for the Strength from the Fallen deck he was running.
Options to improve the Aggro matchup:
- Coursers 3, 4 mainboard;
- Nylea's Disciple sideboard;
- side out Pharika, Reviving Melody and the Eidolons as they are too slow and your creatures are so much better that you won't need the card advantage;
- Polukranos is good, with a ridiculous body and a deadly monstrous ability;
- Reaper of the Wilds is a ridiculous card that can even become hexproof and stand in the way of Goblin Heelcutter
- Bring in a fourth Doomwake from the sideboard
- The Whip of Erebos and Bow of Nylea both have lifegain that makes aggro decks cry. They are slow, so I recommend you try, but I don't guarantee results
Against devotion:Doh! RTFC! Fixed.
Is this a usable card? Or is she too slow and too much work to see play outside of limited and uncompetitive brews?
Profitable ways to get her to flip:
- Blood-Chin Fanatic + warrior
- Merciless Executioner
- Sac outlet (Sidisi's Faithful (credit to metalcrafter), Blazing Hellhound, Butcher of the Horde, Sidisi, Undead Vizier, Tymaret, Qarsi High Priest, ...) + recurrable creature (Bloodsoaked Champion, Flamewake Phoenix, Risen Executioner (probably too slow), Deathmist Raptor (brutal manabase, slow))
- Tymaret, the Murder King
- Must-remove cards (because they spawn creatures): Goblin Rabblemaster; Whisperwood; Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
- Sultai Emissary (I know, unplayable)
Good things to discard with her +2- Bloodsoaked Champion
- Flamewake Phoenix
- Risen Executioner
- Deathmist Raptor
Good Things to retrieve with her -X- any value creature: Siege Rhino, for instance
- Merciless Executioner
- Heliod's Pilgrim
Decks she could fit in:Sidisi, Undead Vizier(oops, only nonlegendary)- Whip decks
- Megamorph decks
- GB Warriors
- Rally decks
- Something new, possibly somewhat aristocratic and maybe even developed by Sam Black
Edit: removed Butcher+token from ways to flip, then added sac outlet+recurrable creatureYeah! What SweetSupremacy said! I'm really impressed. That is fabulous for your first outing. It seems like you played with a lot of awareness and learned quickly.
That said, I think that you may be near the ceiling of your original deck concept. Sure, you will be able to tweak it, but Wizards tests the cards before they release them. They don't release super-powerful cards as commons.
That leaves you at a crossroads. You said you would like to keep working with Constellation. Do you want to make the best Grim Guardian deck ever or do you want to explore potentially more powerful Constellation decks?
If you choose to stick with the Grim Guardians, you know that it is a slow burn. That means you need to keep a lid on what your opponent is doing for a long time or accelerate the damage done. Here are some possibilities, many of which can be combined:
- Start using Whip of Erebos and filling the graveyard even more.
- Look at what you can do with a U splash to fill the Graveyard, likely using Sidisi, like SweetSupremacy suggested.
- look at what you can do with a W splash. Underworld Coinsmith and Banishing Light/Suspension Field/Silkwrap are interesting.
- I think Courser, Eidolon, Giant and Maggot are almost too good to cut in a GB constellation shell. That leaves Wayfinder, Mystic, Weaver, Commune, Despise, Reviving as spots to possibly improve or change.
- Den Protector is not an enchantment, but she is a potent source of card advantage, particularly if you are dumping sweet stuff in the 'yard. Bestowing a Boon Satyr on her makes her almost unblockable.
- Herald of Torment is an enchantment that can be bestowed on a Brain Maggot or an Eidolon to make an effectively hasty evasive threat.
- Strength from the Fallen
- Extinguish All Hope and Dictate of Erebos can be used to develop in a more controlling direction, particularly if you get a sacrifice outlet like Kheru Bloodsucker or Odunos River Trawler involved. Extinguish doesn't work well with your Mystics, so you may want to consider clunky enchantment ramp like Font of Fertility.
If you want to go beyond Grim Guardian, that frees up more slots, and you could explore combining Constellation with Devotion and cards like Nylea, Polukronos, See the Unwritten, Hornet Queen and Dragonlord Atarka. I've also seen the Constellation cards used with Temur Ascendancy (an enchantment).Also a thoughtful analysis of the mirror by Jadine Klomparens at Star City.