I personally run both Padeem and Leonin Abunas in my sideboard. The extra card draw usually matters in matchups I bring Padeem in for, allowing me to dig to try to either set or keep the lock (Gx Tron, Jund, etc.). I wouldn't bring Padeem in against Tokens or anything, of course. The reason I run the split is so that I'm essentially running two Padeem, but they back eachother up rather than one dying to the legendary rule.
Do you run Tezz in your SB?
An interesting idea: Padeem actually helps vs tron too in theory (turns of their Eldrazi cast triggers).
Well I mean you were complaining about Padeem's card draw, so I gave you the previously printed card that has the exact same text and Padeem but without the card draw (but with added power and toughness)
Honestly I have never been hurt by the card draw on Padeem, but it's also never helped me either. You get enough card selection with the lock in place that drawing extra cards has more of a chance of hindering you via drawing 2 lands, than it does at helping you. But those are my personal opinions on the matter.
In the end, it is up to you.
Yea I have been experimenting with one of padeem instead of tezz. Not sure which is correct. Keep flip-flopping lol.
So: question about Padeem, Consul of Innovation
Is it worth it? I've been play testing it alot in the last week. I love the hex-proof... but I am finding the draw-a-card function is really hit or miss. It's either fantastic or terrible. I'm not sure we want a card-draw engine... so I am really on the fence about it. Thoughts?
If you want Padeem without the card draw, there is always Leonin Abunas
I guess... is the card draw worth it?
The card draw feels nice... but if my opponent has a way to restrict how many spells I can cast (blood moon, retoric, etc.) it feels really bad.
Plus there are times where I've had three lands ontop in a row... which if I don't have enough mill-rocks really really stinks.
I like the card... but I'm so torn.
So: question about Padeem, Consul of Innovation
Is it worth it? I've been play testing it alot in the last week. I love the hex-proof... but I am finding the draw-a-card function is really hit or miss. It's either fantastic or terrible. I'm not sure we want a card-draw engine... so I am really on the fence about it. Thoughts?
Stop saying the majority agrees with you unless you have a means of proving it, axman.
A quick google search would highlight that fact. But I'm not going to do your research for you.
There have been entire articles dedicated to the effect of chronicals.
Something you need to be aware of... Most of us would view the "gutting of legacy prices" to be a GOOD thing, a desired and wanted feature not a negitive. It would never gut the value to 0. It might bottom out the value but due to packs having a cost, the values of a set of desired playable cards will never bottom out. only Level out as the prices of packs are a ceiling for them. I would frankly be very happy to never see another single priced at more then $20 a pop ever again.
Most people would disagree with you. That's what they did during chronicalls and people hatead it.
There is a fine line between reprinting too much and just the right ammount. Too much and you get the chronical/yugio effect. (which most people do not want).
I don't know, the value actually looks "slightly" higher than iconic masters. (Iconic master had no really good uncommons/uncommons at all).
Different enviroment, Most of the cards in chronicals were valued due to rarity NOT due to play ability. Most cards in modern are valued to due to play ability and rarity. They will still have play ability demand. It will not tank the set because play ability in a fun format will drive demand even if the cards themselves are more common. Magic is also alot larger then it used tobe back then. I would suggest that most sets are printed significantly MORE times then chronicals was. Just print to demand at a normal packs price like any other set. will this make modern cheaper YES but that is a good thing.
History would not agree with you. For example: shock lands and fetches had their value impacts at a large degree by reprints, despite playability.
This comes down to where we feel the cards should be. I have already stated that I feel the MOST any card should be is $20. That should be a card that is used in Vintage/LEgacy/Modern and standard as a top 4 of mythic. From their it should only go down and dramticly, Shocks/fetches should only be in teh 5-10 range. They never should have creeped higher in the first place.
I can't say the vast majority of people would agree with you.
Especially not people that have heavily invested in legacy.
So if they are just as bad you're telling me that these sets are already as bad chronicles because they don't contain enough value. But you're okay with this extreme but not the other?
Here's the thing, you're looking at this like the knob is only at either zero or eleven. WOTC doesn't have to print all of the best cards ever at common and sell the packs for $4 or sell packs for $10 and only include mostly chaff. They make these products and they can tune them to be reasonable for their price points. If a pack is over double the normal price of packs it should be equal to that in value and/or play experience. And that value should probably be scaled back a bit if the packs were $4. But honestly as it stands now with almost all of the value in these sets being found at mythic WOTC could sell Masters 25 for $4 a pack and I guarantee you we would not have the Chronicles effect because this set is not filled to the brim with value.
I don't think you understand why chronicals was so bad. It had nothing to do with the value of the cards in Chronicals.
In fact Chronicles actively tanked the value of every single card that was in the set. Due to being reprinted into oblivion.
It's the same effect shocklands and fetchalnds faced when they were printed in standard Price dropped by 50% (and stayed there).
If cards like blood moon, chalice, etc. were printed in a pack that only cost $4.0 the value of those cards would quickly be gutted.
The reason why the packs are $10 is to slow demand for the product, so key modern/legacy staples don't become "worthless". This does two things:
a) allows key "chase" cards to retain their value so the set is still worth something even months after the original printing. and b) Allows for a slight decrease in the cost of cards without completely skewing the market.
Something you need to be aware of... Most of us would view the "gutting of legacy prices" to be a GOOD thing, a desired and wanted feature not a negitive. It would never gut the value to 0. It might bottom out the value but due to packs having a cost, the values of a set of desired playable cards will never bottom out. only Level out as the prices of packs are a ceiling for them. I would frankly be very happy to never see another single priced at more then $20 a pop ever again.
Most people would disagree with you. That's what they did during chronicalls and people hatead it.
There is a fine line between reprinting too much and just the right ammount. Too much and you get the chronical/yugio effect. (which most people do not want).
I don't know, the value actually looks "slightly" higher than iconic masters. (Iconic master had no really good uncommons/uncommons at all).
Different enviroment, Most of the cards in chronicals were valued due to rarity NOT due to play ability. Most cards in modern are valued to due to play ability and rarity. They will still have play ability demand. It will not tank the set because play ability in a fun format will drive demand even if the cards themselves are more common. Magic is also alot larger then it used tobe back then. I would suggest that most sets are printed significantly MORE times then chronicals was. Just print to demand at a normal packs price like any other set. will this make modern cheaper YES but that is a good thing.
History would not agree with you. For example: shock lands and fetches had their value impacts at a large degree by reprints, despite playability.
Jeez, the outrage over this set so far is unbelievable. Out of the 120 or so cards currently spoiled, 18 of them are currently pre-selling for $10 or more: Mythics
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Imperial Recruiter
Chalice of the Void
Ensnaring Bridge
Vendilion Clique
Phyrexian Obliterator
Animar, Soul of Elements
Rare
Rishadan Port
Fetid Heath
Twilight Mire
Azusa, Lost but Seeking
Blood Moon
Pact of Negation
Rugged Prarie
Summoner's Pact
Cascade Bluffs
Flooded Growth
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Based on the presale price (which, I understand, will eventually drop), the mythics and rares will return pack value all by themselves - $6.8 weighted average for the rares and $3.8 weighted average for the mythics (assuming 1/8 mythic slots). Even if you exclude Jace from that calculation, you'd still be looking at $9.40 and that's without the current $4.52 per-pack value from uncommons and $8.50 per-pack value from commons (a number which is probably more egregious since the set is likely to tank many of those values and the lesser value commons haven't been spoiled yet). Yes, you read all that right - for as "awful" as this set is, the average booster pack will currently return $24 in pre-sale value (and to note: those offer prices are mostly below the current card average for the previous versions).
Look, I get it - it sucks to open cards you don't want. But that's Magic. You've been playing this game for how many years and yet you continue to ***** about this card value? No, they didn't pack this set with a hundred of history's most expensive cards. But they're not idiots - they aren't going to put $70 worth of product into a $10 booster pack. They threw in a couple-dozen high value reprints along with some solid uncommons and commons that needed another printing. But all any of you can do is focus on how you aren't getting the exact cards you want, without taking a look at the bigger picture. It's ridiculous and a little pathetic.
Fantastic Analysis. Honestly I think the reason why iconic masters was a flop was the commons/uncommon were so abysmal (literally I don't think there was more than 3-4 that see play outside of EDH). M25 seems far superior in that regard.
After the standard challenger deck lists, I was actually pretty happy and hopeful that WotC had turned the corner... until this utter garbage fire of a set was spoiled.
Now i'm back to my usual tired scepticism of them as a company.
To me they look like a failing company. I've got more faith in the force of will company than Wizards of the Coast.
So... I think anyone who says that can't be taken seriously.
Force of Will tanked due to mismanagement. ._.
Actually, ax man, and I'm not adding to that quote pyramid, but I'd like to see some evidence that most people were angry about chronicles and not just a loud minority.
I said this on another thread, the flaw in your argument is that you are assuming that we are in the best scenario right now. It's perfect equilibrium, and any effort to improve the affordability of modern somehow destroys the game. All investments involve risk, and if your are putting significant amounts of capital into cards that have absolutely no solid guarantees (a/k/a the reserved list) regarding reprints, you should buy with the knowledge that your collection could drop in value at any given time. Hell, I think the reserved list should be expanded, but I am not so naive as to think that the current situation regarding reprints if the best.
Here's the real problem - everyone here complaining? You will still buy product. Most of you will buy a box, or draft a couple times, or save up for the next set and do the same. Hell you'll do it a couple of times this year. If you want to impact how these sets go, you have to both talk about it and NOT BUY ANYTHING. Buy singles online from individuals if you want to play, and build a cube if you want to draft with friends. Make it clear both verbally and fiscally that this is not acceptable, and history shows WOTC will listen.
I know how some of you will react: I want to support my LGS, its not their fault the reprints are such nonsense. You're wrong. If your LGS sells singles, then they are an investor. They want to be able to mark those cards up week to week, month to month, and never see a loss. That is an asset, and they are standing right next to individual collectors ready to complain if WOTC makes one move to help the players.
I have not bought a single sealed product in six months (not just for this reason, honestly). Iconic Masters was a wreck, and WOTC won't think they need to change their attitude until they have multiple sets in a row turn into equally large noticeable dumpster fires.
Historically chronically sales tanked. People don't open packs just because they like opening packs. They open them up due to value.
If a set tanks the value of cards enough, it would no longer be worth while to buy that set.
Also - I never stated that I thought the best scenario was right now. I think right now is better then a chronicals scenario, but that's not saying much.
Also - Iconic masters was terrible. So far this set looks day and night in comparison (iconic masters had no good uncommon/commons).
Because no one wants to open a $10 pack to only see a bunch of chaff. If these sets were filled to the brim with value where a player would be guaranteed to get around $10 back in secondary market value, that price tag could be justified but we know that it costs just as much to print Masters packs as it does to print standard packs. This makes these sets stink of being $10 pack lotteries designed to make players hope to pull a Chalice of the Void, Imperial Recruiter or Jace the Mind Sculptor. WOTC is trying to serve two masters and it isn't working. Are these supposed to be value reprint sets or great limited environments? We've already examined how they're not doing so hot on the former and if it's the latter then why do they expect players to drop $10 on limited packs with an experience that as mostly been met with an "eh, it's okay" instead of spending $10 on Innistrad packs, a set widely thought of to be one of thr best limited environments of all time? And if the point of these sets is to offer affordable reprints to players then why are packs over double the normal price?
None of this would be as much of a problem of the packs were normally priced but at over double the normal pack msrp a lot of players do not feel like WOTC is producing a product that matches its price tag. I honestly wonder how sales of this set would look without invetsors and card stores busting hundreds of packs to sell the expensive singles.
See my first point. If packs were cheaper, they could easily become another Chronicles which would be terrible.
The whole purpose of the price point is to prevent another Chronicals. Over-printing (at cheap prices) is just as bad as not enough value.
So if they are just as bad you're telling me that these sets are already as bad chronicles because they don't contain enough value. But you're okay with this extreme but not the other?
Here's the thing, you're looking at this like the knob is only at either zero or eleven. WOTC doesn't have to print all of the best cards ever at common and sell the packs for $4 or sell packs for $10 and only include mostly chaff. They make these products and they can tune them to be reasonable for their price points. If a pack is over double the normal price of packs it should be equal to that in value and/or play experience. And that value should probably be scaled back a bit if the packs were $4. But honestly as it stands now with almost all of the value in these sets being found at mythic WOTC could sell Masters 25 for $4 a pack and I guarantee you we would not have the Chronicles effect because this set is not filled to the brim with value.
I don't think you understand why chronicals was so bad. It had nothing to do with the value of the cards in Chronicals.
In fact Chronicles actively tanked the value of every single card that was in the set. Due to being reprinted into oblivion.
It's the same effect shocklands and fetchalnds faced when they were printed in standard Price dropped by 50% (and stayed there).
If cards like blood moon, chalice, etc. were printed in a pack that only cost $4.0 the value of those cards would quickly be gutted.
The reason why the packs are $10 is to slow demand for the product, so key modern/legacy staples don't become "worthless". This does two things:
a) allows key "chase" cards to retain their value so the set is still worth something even months after the original printing. and b) Allows for a slight decrease in the cost of cards without completely skewing the market.
Something you need to be aware of... Most of us would view the "gutting of legacy prices" to be a GOOD thing, a desired and wanted feature not a negitive. It would never gut the value to 0. It might bottom out the value but due to packs having a cost, the values of a set of desired playable cards will never bottom out. only Level out as the prices of packs are a ceiling for them. I would frankly be very happy to never see another single priced at more then $20 a pop ever again.
Most people would disagree with you. That's what they did during chronicalls and people hatead it.
There is a fine line between reprinting too much and just the right ammount. Too much and you get the chronical/yugio effect. (which most people do not want).
I don't know, the value actually looks "slightly" higher than iconic masters. (Iconic master had no really good uncommons/uncommons at all).
Serberus, every time we've tried to predict a good outcome so far, it's turned around and hit us in the face. They didn't even print a single thing at mythic outside of what they revealed early on that has any serious staying power. Even if they reprint Rhystic Study, it doesn't see much play outside of commander so it's just going to get murdered. They have to print Path to Exile, Fatal Push, etc to help carry the set and I don't think we are going to see that happen.
I am holding my breathe. I think based on the power-quality of the uncommon/commons we've already seen it's "possible".
Do you run Tezz in your SB?
An interesting idea: Padeem actually helps vs tron too in theory (turns of their Eldrazi cast triggers).
I think padeem might be worth it after all.
Yea I have been experimenting with one of padeem instead of tezz. Not sure which is correct. Keep flip-flopping lol.
I guess... is the card draw worth it?
The card draw feels nice... but if my opponent has a way to restrict how many spells I can cast (blood moon, retoric, etc.) it feels really bad.
Plus there are times where I've had three lands ontop in a row... which if I don't have enough mill-rocks really really stinks.
I like the card... but I'm so torn.
Is it worth it? I've been play testing it alot in the last week. I love the hex-proof... but I am finding the draw-a-card function is really hit or miss. It's either fantastic or terrible. I'm not sure we want a card-draw engine... so I am really on the fence about it. Thoughts?
I think the rumors of lantern's demise have been grossly over-stated...
I am currently working on setting up a stream so I can stream lantern on mtgo.
A quick google search would highlight that fact. But I'm not going to do your research for you.
There have been entire articles dedicated to the effect of chronicals.
It's also known as the Yugio effect.
I can't say the vast majority of people would agree with you.
Especially not people that have heavily invested in legacy.
History would not agree with you. For example: shock lands and fetches had their value impacts at a large degree by reprints, despite playability.
Fantastic Analysis. Honestly I think the reason why iconic masters was a flop was the commons/uncommon were so abysmal (literally I don't think there was more than 3-4 that see play outside of EDH). M25 seems far superior in that regard.
So... I think anyone who says that can't be taken seriously.
Force of Will tanked due to mismanagement. ._.
Historically chronically sales tanked. People don't open packs just because they like opening packs. They open them up due to value.
If a set tanks the value of cards enough, it would no longer be worth while to buy that set.
Also - I never stated that I thought the best scenario was right now. I think right now is better then a chronicals scenario, but that's not saying much.
Also - Iconic masters was terrible. So far this set looks day and night in comparison (iconic masters had no good uncommon/commons).
Most people would disagree with you. That's what they did during chronicalls and people hatead it.
There is a fine line between reprinting too much and just the right ammount. Too much and you get the chronical/yugio effect. (which most people do not want).
I don't know, the value actually looks "slightly" higher than iconic masters. (Iconic master had no really good uncommons/uncommons at all).
At least it looks like it would fun to draft.
I am holding my breathe. I think based on the power-quality of the uncommon/commons we've already seen it's "possible".