re: Hyena Umbra, this is a creature infested meta. Having a 2/2 first striker is big advantage against someone that can just flash in a Snapcaster Mage turn 2 and eat a Bogle with Spider Umbra. Totally reverse outcome if it has Hyena Umbra instead.
This delays us really hard since they can draw the counter for the next aura we will play, or worse, it makes the Daybreak Coronet in our hand a dead card since our crit has no more Aura in it.
imho, cut Spider Umbra first rather than Hyena Umbra. Keen Sense is good but having 3 is pushing it. We will not win with card advantage, we win with damage. So having a 1/1 with 2 Keen Sense on it is nothing when an opponent has a 1/1 Elemental token on the other side. We can't even attack.
I usually go with 4 Heath, 5 other green fetches, 4 canopy, 4 thicket, 1 forest, 1 plains, 1 arbor.
i agree. this land base is really pushing it. the problem is you dont run Temple Gardens. Imagine having 2 fetches in opening hand + Coronet. The first turns will be awkward since we always want Green on t1 to cast a crit. then a combination of G & W on t2 since this depends on the auras we draw. if you opened with 2 Empyrial Armors, then that's lost tempo since you could've cast them both if you had 2 white sources. we also need double W on t3 for a Coronet. so to solve your problems, remove 4 "other green fetches" and replace them with 4 Temple Gardens problem solved.
last note, this is a Remand infested meta. So it is important that we are able to recast the auras they Remanded or we lose tempo advantage again. it's basically a timewalk for opp.
I keep playing witht he build. Trying to streamline it. Thoughts?
14 creatures helps me reduce muligan rates, and gives more resilience to board wipes.
you may want to squeeze in a Dryad Arbor in your list. This helps against Liliana activations which are really troublesome for the deck. Also, you don't need to worry about board wipes. We have more totem armors than the board wipe cards our opp has in their deck
Spiritdancer's ability is triggered "whenever" you play an Aura spell and not when it is successfully cast.
so it's basically cycling a 1 mana Aura to find a 2 mana one
I have never been a fan of Unflinching Courage.
I feel it's too slow and the deck has enough lifegain already.
The only deck we want it in is when playing against Burn which is easily beaten by Coronet or White leyline anyways.
Trample damage comes from Rancor which is hardly removed so I'd preferred to pack in more cheap auras to ensure Coronet lands on t3
Zinedrei -
Against Ad Nauseam, Leyline of Sanctity basically shuts them down as all of their win-cons target you and they can't usually remove it easilly. Suppression field also works well against them as it shuts their Lightning Storm (think about it) and versus Conflagrate you can usually win the life-gain race against them as getting above 40+ life makes it really hard for them to win with it. Lastly, Gaddok Teeg is just amazing against them as, again, they often don't have the answer. Overall I have found this to be a good matchup just because we incidentally hate them out completely.
I have mentioned in a previous post why I dont like the Ad Nauseam matchup - Patrician's Scorn.
Every hate , every threat we have are nullified once they draw their entire deck.
Scorn is way better than Echoing Truth because it is free.
A few more of these and I'll run Ethersworn Canonist instead
Teeg does nothing against Lightning Storm so Canonist is a better hate card.
re: Cage >> you want cage to stop tutors from Pods and Chords since RiP does nothing against them
one small thing, you may want to go full set on White Leyline, we want to have max chances of opening with it.
@ Mr_Bote, try going on a full set of Hyena Umbra instead of Spider. Fliers are not a threat in modern. First strike gives you an edge especially if your meta is aggro. Eidolon is a win more card which wont turn the tide in your favor. Even if it does, Abrupt Decay shuts it down and it's a full turn 3 gone to waste. By turn 3, opp life should be ideally within 10.
if you want a blocker, try on Kor Spiritdancer. Not only is it a blocker, it lets you draw cards which is better than tutoring for a specific aura one time, and it gets bigger.
I had a game wherein opp had a chalice for 1 in play. I cast Spiritdancer and chained one mana auras just to dig through my Spirit Mantles and Coronets
Pestermite & Exarch are not threats on their own.
but when the opp has an infinite number of those crits across the table, then we lose.
i'm referring to Twin decks which have these 2 crits as key enablers.
apologies for not being clear.
same goes for my Pod comment.
in general, I used 4 x Suppression Fields in main just to have a good g1 against infinite combo decks which were prevalent before.
My sideboard is posted above.
Basically, what I cut most are the Suppression Fields and Spirit Mantles.
This gives me 6 slots to play around with.
Ad Nauseam:
- I scoop lol but here's what I try:
- 4 Suppression Field - 2 Path to Exile
+ 2 Nature's Claim + 4 Stony Silence
- I still lose most of the time though.
Remand or any counter is good against us. Even Izzet Charm is effective.
This made me go for a couple of Guttural Responses in the board.
i play 5 fetches and 2 Arbors with no Plains, just singleton Forest.
Had no issues at all.
re Abrupt Decay: there is nothing in the current deck that Decay is better comparing the issues we will have with mana.
we always want to hit lands that can give WW on turn 2.
so t1 we need a green source for a Bogle whilst ensuring both colors are available t2 since we do not know what combination of Auras we will draw.
will it be 2 Rancors which need 2 green sources, 2 Hyena Umbras which needs 2 white sources or a combination of both.
re: Answer to current meta
Spellskite - PTE / Nature's Claim
pestermite - Suppression Field
exarch - Suppression Field
most pod combos - Suppression Field
chalice - 2 mana crits / aura
rack - Nature's Claim
bridge - Nature's Claim
ascension - Nature's Claim / RiP / White Leyline
ascendancy - Nature's Claim
affinity - Stony Silence
Point is, the deck already has enough answers incorporated into it.
This is the same discussion before which suggests adding red for Boros Charm.
The reason why Bogles went out of favor before is because of the prevalence of infinite combo decks like Pod & Twin.
Hence, Suppression Fields became main board cards.
I ran a full set since it wrecks from fetch cracking to equipment costs to Spellskite activations to Tribe Elder block sac durdles.
With the current shift in meta, it may be worth considering moving them out of main and putting in more auras instead like Spirit Link or going full sets on the totem armors.
re: Bad Matchups
imho, the deck is having a really hard time playing against Scapeshift.
the only time I win is when I have White Leyline in my opening hand and drew into Rancor to keep pressure up.
this also requires me to draw 1 of 2 Gutural Responses from SB to counter that Cryptic bounce + tap effect.
if i dont draw into all of these cards early in the game, it's a big challenge to win, especially now that Scapeshift plays Dig through Time.
we're a bit lucky since Scapeshift isn't flavor of the month for now and fewer and fewer people are playing them in Dailies.
one more deck which is really hard to beat: Ad Nauseum.
that deck shuts down to Stony Silence BUT only for a few turns since they will draw their lands eventually and we need to kill them before they draw into Ad Nauseum into Angel's Grace into Patrician's Scorn.
Re: Good Matchups
imho, Bogles wrecks any other deck in the format.
especially now that everyone is into UR Delver, curving into a t1 Bogle, t2 Rancor + another aura with First strike is enough to win us games. Moreso when we resolve a Coronet which is almost always happening since they will still tap out for a Pyromancer or Delver + Serum Visions
answers to other decks have been mentioned earlier in my post.
one thing i would beg people to try is Guttural Response against any blue deck except Storm.
GR is just a powerhouse against someone running Remands hoping to draw into more Remands / counters
or someone who was happy they topdecked Hibernation
if the opponent is able to cast Keranos and we aren't winning yet, chances are, we wont be even if Keranos gets shuffled in opponent's library.
Chalice for 1 really wrecks the deckand having 2 mana answers are key - Naturalize (and the like), Spiritdancer & Spirit Mantle.
I've been considering to squeeze Gaddock Teeg in my SB since Scapeshift really hoses the decks unless we get the nut draw of t2 Rancor into t3 Coronet. Else, Sakura Elder will just chump all day.
Here's the board Im using and open for opinions, be it good or bad:
4 White Leyline
4 Stony Silence
2 Guttural Response
2 Rest in Peace
1 Graf Cage
2 Nature's Claim
I'll try to replace RiP with Teegs if I face more Scapeshifts in Dailies.
Also, I'm really loving the Delver heavy meta.
Bogles just eat that deck alive
crits will be bigger, they have totem armor so kinda hard to deal with removal and with Spirit Mantle, not only is it unblockable, the crit is untouchable as well
the key difference between Supp Field and Damping Matrix is the cost.
having Supp in a turn earlier let's you out tempo the opp and in our deck, having that spare mana is very crucial since most of our spells cost 1.
lastly, Damping Matrix doesn't delay planeswalkers which is a big thing.
The opponent's turn 3 Liliana isn't nullified by a Damping Matrix but Supp Field let's us push through the damage and even kill the planeswalker if we have Rancor on a Bogle.
by the time that the opponent has 2 extra mana to pay for Supp Field, we would be winning already
Try upping the white leylines to a full set since you want to have the highest chance of opening with one.
Casting one on turn 4 wont do us any good anyways.
Also, try putting a couple of Guttural Responses in your side.
It would be really good against Cryptic Commands tapping down our crit or opp playing Repeals / bounce effects.
sad to see this thread moved to established.
perhaps less people play the deck nowadays.
hopefully, with the arrival of the reprinted fetches, the deck will rise in popularity again.
it's unconditional removal for the same cost and most importantly, it's an instant.
Other Auras with Pacifism Effects doesn't do anything against prevalent decks in the meta like Twin, so if you really want removal-ish effects, PTE is the way to go.
and i thought duals increased in price because of the spike in fetches since fetches should be cheaper than duals.
and if fetches reached 99 usd, corresponding dual shouldnt be close.
Heliod's Pilgrim is just too slow.
Cutting a Spiritdancer for it defeats the purpose of the deck to win fast.
Pilgrim comes down at turn 3 and then we'll be able to cast the aura it searched for the next turn.
Spiritdancer comes down at turn 2 and is a real card drawing engine and especially good against all decks except those with bounce and PTE.
Plus, Spiritdancer can win games on her own, Pilgrim cannot.
Tutoring for Coronet isn't always a wincon for use while a fat Spiritdancer coupled with Auras makes it a real potent threat.
Lastly, the single turn difference of getting value from Pilgrim and Spiritdancer is huge.
What do people think about Opressive Rays as a way to deal with Spell Skite ect?
I liked it in the recent standard for its similar effect on Pack Rat. I've thought about it for modern, too, but the thing I always come back to is "what else is it good for?" Suppression Field hits so many more things. Though I haven't played boggles enough to really know all the matchups yet. And an aura is easier to tutor if you build your deck that way as mentioned recently.
This. Exactly this. The key reason why Suppression Field is so good is because it's a catch all against the current meta.
It delays fetch activations, Spellskite redirects and Plating equips.
Most importantly, it stops infinite combos which is a real thing.
Oppressive Rays is dead against a lot of decks and it cannot even stop a Pod player from tutoring up Pridemage or Sliver.
point is, we already have Spirit Mantle which is loads better than Madcap.
if you're already running 4 x Mantles, then maybe, just maybe, you can put in Madcap.
Flameslash is just bad and so is Combust.
We already have access to PTE, it's cheaper, catch all, and easier on the mana base.
The core GW deck is powerful enough already, we can change it of course, but the advantage should be significant.
Adding a third color for Madcap Skills and Flameslash / Combust isn;t worth it imho.
Lastly, in the sample list, try it with a set of Hyena Umbras and Rancors instead and you'll feel the significant difference.
The key card in this deck is Daybreak Coronet and we want to have 2 auras on our crit by turn 2 so that by turn 3, we can land Coronet safely.
If you play in Madcap on turn 2 then Coronet turn 3, opponent casts Decay on Madcap and you're left with a 1/1 which is bad.
Take the same situation and you put in an Umbra and a Rancor turn 2, then Coronet turn 3, opponent's Decay is not as effective.
Mantle lets you push through damage and prevents is as well, Madcap doesnt. Jund / BG decks doesn't have Goyf as their only crit and besides, Goyf isnt even a threat, we can easily Path it, same goes for twin and Skites.
dont get me wrong, im trying to be constructive and im open to learn new strategies for the deck since i believe it's the perfect answer to the current meta.
but diluting our mana base for threats we already have answers for while still staying on color is something i wont try.
oh and btw, try playing Bogles against Soul Sisters with Norin and an Ajani's Pridemate.
Madcap Skills wont even help if it faced a 50/50 Pridemate while Spirit Mantle wins the game for us.
same goes when playing against Pod or Affinity where the opp will always have more than 2 crits in play.
edit:
Flameslash can't be used on Twin since they drop their crit EOT and Slash is sorcery so you're better off with a PTE in hand and pray that they dont have dispel mana up when it's their turn 5
This delays us really hard since they can draw the counter for the next aura we will play, or worse, it makes the Daybreak Coronet in our hand a dead card since our crit has no more Aura in it.
imho, cut Spider Umbra first rather than Hyena Umbra. Keen Sense is good but having 3 is pushing it. We will not win with card advantage, we win with damage. So having a 1/1 with 2 Keen Sense on it is nothing when an opponent has a 1/1 Elemental token on the other side. We can't even attack.
i agree. this land base is really pushing it. the problem is you dont run Temple Gardens. Imagine having 2 fetches in opening hand + Coronet. The first turns will be awkward since we always want Green on t1 to cast a crit. then a combination of G & W on t2 since this depends on the auras we draw. if you opened with 2 Empyrial Armors, then that's lost tempo since you could've cast them both if you had 2 white sources. we also need double W on t3 for a Coronet. so to solve your problems, remove 4 "other green fetches" and replace them with 4 Temple Gardens
last note, this is a Remand infested meta. So it is important that we are able to recast the auras they Remanded or we lose tempo advantage again. it's basically a timewalk for opp.
you may want to squeeze in a Dryad Arbor in your list. This helps against Liliana activations which are really troublesome for the deck. Also, you don't need to worry about board wipes. We have more totem armors than the board wipe cards our opp has in their deck
Spiritdancer's ability is triggered "whenever" you play an Aura spell and not when it is successfully cast.
so it's basically cycling a 1 mana Aura to find a 2 mana one
I have never been a fan of Unflinching Courage.
I feel it's too slow and the deck has enough lifegain already.
The only deck we want it in is when playing against Burn which is easily beaten by Coronet or White leyline anyways.
Trample damage comes from Rancor which is hardly removed so I'd preferred to pack in more cheap auras to ensure Coronet lands on t3
I have mentioned in a previous post why I dont like the Ad Nauseam matchup - Patrician's Scorn.
Every hate , every threat we have are nullified once they draw their entire deck.
Scorn is way better than Echoing Truth because it is free.
A few more of these and I'll run Ethersworn Canonist instead
Teeg does nothing against Lightning Storm so Canonist is a better hate card.
re: Cage >> you want cage to stop tutors from Pods and Chords since RiP does nothing against them
one small thing, you may want to go full set on White Leyline, we want to have max chances of opening with it.
@ Mr_Bote, try going on a full set of Hyena Umbra instead of Spider. Fliers are not a threat in modern. First strike gives you an edge especially if your meta is aggro. Eidolon is a win more card which wont turn the tide in your favor. Even if it does, Abrupt Decay shuts it down and it's a full turn 3 gone to waste. By turn 3, opp life should be ideally within 10.
if you want a blocker, try on Kor Spiritdancer. Not only is it a blocker, it lets you draw cards which is better than tutoring for a specific aura one time, and it gets bigger.
I had a game wherein opp had a chalice for 1 in play. I cast Spiritdancer and chained one mana auras just to dig through my Spirit Mantles and Coronets
Pestermite & Exarch are not threats on their own.
but when the opp has an infinite number of those crits across the table, then we lose.
i'm referring to Twin decks which have these 2 crits as key enablers.
apologies for not being clear.
same goes for my Pod comment.
in general, I used 4 x Suppression Fields in main just to have a good g1 against infinite combo decks which were prevalent before.
My sideboard is posted above.
Basically, what I cut most are the Suppression Fields and Spirit Mantles.
This gives me 6 slots to play around with.
Samples are below:
Burn:
- 4 Supp Field
+ 4 White Leyline
Pod:
- 2 Spirit Mantle - 1 Coronet
+ 2 Nature's Claim + 1 Cage
UR Delver:
- 4 Suppression Field
+ 2 Guttural Response + 2 Nature's Claim
Affinity:
- 4 Suppression Field - 2 Spirit Mantle
+ 4 Stony Silence + 2 Nature's Claim
Ad Nauseam:
- I scoop lol
- 4 Suppression Field - 2 Path to Exile
+ 2 Nature's Claim + 4 Stony Silence
- I still lose most of the time though.
Remand or any counter is good against us. Even Izzet Charm is effective.
This made me go for a couple of Guttural Responses in the board.
Had no issues at all.
re Abrupt Decay: there is nothing in the current deck that Decay is better comparing the issues we will have with mana.
we always want to hit lands that can give WW on turn 2.
so t1 we need a green source for a Bogle whilst ensuring both colors are available t2 since we do not know what combination of Auras we will draw.
will it be 2 Rancors which need 2 green sources, 2 Hyena Umbras which needs 2 white sources or a combination of both.
re: Answer to current meta
Spellskite - PTE / Nature's Claim
pestermite - Suppression Field
exarch - Suppression Field
most pod combos - Suppression Field
chalice - 2 mana crits / aura
rack - Nature's Claim
bridge - Nature's Claim
ascension - Nature's Claim / RiP / White Leyline
ascendancy - Nature's Claim
affinity - Stony Silence
Point is, the deck already has enough answers incorporated into it.
This is the same discussion before which suggests adding red for Boros Charm.
The reason why Bogles went out of favor before is because of the prevalence of infinite combo decks like Pod & Twin.
Hence, Suppression Fields became main board cards.
I ran a full set since it wrecks from fetch cracking to equipment costs to Spellskite activations to Tribe Elder block sac durdles.
With the current shift in meta, it may be worth considering moving them out of main and putting in more auras instead like Spirit Link or going full sets on the totem armors.
re: Bad Matchups
imho, the deck is having a really hard time playing against Scapeshift.
the only time I win is when I have White Leyline in my opening hand and drew into Rancor to keep pressure up.
this also requires me to draw 1 of 2 Gutural Responses from SB to counter that Cryptic bounce + tap effect.
if i dont draw into all of these cards early in the game, it's a big challenge to win, especially now that Scapeshift plays Dig through Time.
we're a bit lucky since Scapeshift isn't flavor of the month for now and fewer and fewer people are playing them in Dailies.
one more deck which is really hard to beat: Ad Nauseum.
that deck shuts down to Stony Silence BUT only for a few turns since they will draw their lands eventually and we need to kill them before they draw into Ad Nauseum into Angel's Grace into Patrician's Scorn.
Re: Good Matchups
imho, Bogles wrecks any other deck in the format.
especially now that everyone is into UR Delver, curving into a t1 Bogle, t2 Rancor + another aura with First strike is enough to win us games. Moreso when we resolve a Coronet which is almost always happening since they will still tap out for a Pyromancer or Delver + Serum Visions
answers to other decks have been mentioned earlier in my post.
one thing i would beg people to try is Guttural Response against any blue deck except Storm.
GR is just a powerhouse against someone running Remands hoping to draw into more Remands / counters
or someone who was happy they topdecked Hibernation
apologies for the long post ...
Chalice for 1 really wrecks the deckand having 2 mana answers are key - Naturalize (and the like), Spiritdancer & Spirit Mantle.
I've been considering to squeeze Gaddock Teeg in my SB since Scapeshift really hoses the decks unless we get the nut draw of t2 Rancor into t3 Coronet. Else, Sakura Elder will just chump all day.
Here's the board Im using and open for opinions, be it good or bad:
4 White Leyline
4 Stony Silence
2 Guttural Response
2 Rest in Peace
1 Graf Cage
2 Nature's Claim
I'll try to replace RiP with Teegs if I face more Scapeshifts in Dailies.
Also, I'm really loving the Delver heavy meta.
Bogles just eat that deck alive
straight WG
crits will be bigger, they have totem armor so kinda hard to deal with removal and with Spirit Mantle, not only is it unblockable, the crit is untouchable as well
having Supp in a turn earlier let's you out tempo the opp and in our deck, having that spare mana is very crucial since most of our spells cost 1.
lastly, Damping Matrix doesn't delay planeswalkers which is a big thing.
The opponent's turn 3 Liliana isn't nullified by a Damping Matrix but Supp Field let's us push through the damage and even kill the planeswalker if we have Rancor on a Bogle.
by the time that the opponent has 2 extra mana to pay for Supp Field, we would be winning already
Try upping the white leylines to a full set since you want to have the highest chance of opening with one.
Casting one on turn 4 wont do us any good anyways.
Also, try putting a couple of Guttural Responses in your side.
It would be really good against Cryptic Commands tapping down our crit or opp playing Repeals / bounce effects.
perhaps less people play the deck nowadays.
hopefully, with the arrival of the reprinted fetches, the deck will rise in popularity again.
it's unconditional removal for the same cost and most importantly, it's an instant.
Other Auras with Pacifism Effects doesn't do anything against prevalent decks in the meta like Twin, so if you really want removal-ish effects, PTE is the way to go.
and if fetches reached 99 usd, corresponding dual shouldnt be close.
Cutting a Spiritdancer for it defeats the purpose of the deck to win fast.
Pilgrim comes down at turn 3 and then we'll be able to cast the aura it searched for the next turn.
Spiritdancer comes down at turn 2 and is a real card drawing engine and especially good against all decks except those with bounce and PTE.
Plus, Spiritdancer can win games on her own, Pilgrim cannot.
Tutoring for Coronet isn't always a wincon for use while a fat Spiritdancer coupled with Auras makes it a real potent threat.
Lastly, the single turn difference of getting value from Pilgrim and Spiritdancer is huge.
This. Exactly this. The key reason why Suppression Field is so good is because it's a catch all against the current meta.
It delays fetch activations, Spellskite redirects and Plating equips.
Most importantly, it stops infinite combos which is a real thing.
Oppressive Rays is dead against a lot of decks and it cannot even stop a Pod player from tutoring up Pridemage or Sliver.
if you're already running 4 x Mantles, then maybe, just maybe, you can put in Madcap.
Flameslash is just bad and so is Combust.
We already have access to PTE, it's cheaper, catch all, and easier on the mana base.
The core GW deck is powerful enough already, we can change it of course, but the advantage should be significant.
Adding a third color for Madcap Skills and Flameslash / Combust isn;t worth it imho.
Lastly, in the sample list, try it with a set of Hyena Umbras and Rancors instead and you'll feel the significant difference.
The key card in this deck is Daybreak Coronet and we want to have 2 auras on our crit by turn 2 so that by turn 3, we can land Coronet safely.
If you play in Madcap on turn 2 then Coronet turn 3, opponent casts Decay on Madcap and you're left with a 1/1 which is bad.
Take the same situation and you put in an Umbra and a Rancor turn 2, then Coronet turn 3, opponent's Decay is not as effective.
my 2c...
Mantle lets you push through damage and prevents is as well, Madcap doesnt. Jund / BG decks doesn't have Goyf as their only crit and besides, Goyf isnt even a threat, we can easily Path it, same goes for twin and Skites.
dont get me wrong, im trying to be constructive and im open to learn new strategies for the deck since i believe it's the perfect answer to the current meta.
but diluting our mana base for threats we already have answers for while still staying on color is something i wont try.
oh and btw, try playing Bogles against Soul Sisters with Norin and an Ajani's Pridemate.
Madcap Skills wont even help if it faced a 50/50 Pridemate while Spirit Mantle wins the game for us.
same goes when playing against Pod or Affinity where the opp will always have more than 2 crits in play.
edit:
Flameslash can't be used on Twin since they drop their crit EOT and Slash is sorcery so you're better off with a PTE in hand and pray that they dont have dispel mana up when it's their turn 5