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  • spidernova's avatar

    4

    Jul 11, 2017
    spidernova posted a message on State of Modern Thread: bans, format health, metagame, and more! (3/13 update)
    I think it's a little odd that WOTC seems perfectly fine with pro players breaking the game for Pro Tours, but the rest of us who don't have the time to grind out thousands of games are the ones who are the problem. Good lord, isn't a rotating metagame that rewards people who pick a good counterdeck exactly what they want? We saw the anemic modern version of DnT do really well because Shadow was over present. They are never ever going to get a format where every deck is 10% metashare or less, especially if they don't want to hire any professional number crunchers. I mean, I don't think that this is actually going to change the way bans happen very much, but if wizards is being more this opaque about their metagame data, then bans might feel a lot worse if the decision is based on MTGO data that we cant see.
    Modern is in a pretty good state right now, I would agree, but trying to put blinders on a community that is very invested and enthusiastic? Doesn't seem right to me. It's your job to balance and design the format Wizards, don't blame a networked community of people who are good at game theory and stats for breaking it, or at least hire some of them.

    I'm also little confused about the potential for CnD. Is it the collection of data, or the publication of said data that's problematic? I don't use MODO, and am just wondering here.
    And, I can very much understand something like that being in the TOS for a digital game, but can they do something related for a website that just tracks the paper meta? Is there a TOS equivalent for paper magic as well?
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • spidernova's avatar

    3

    Jun 7, 2017
    spidernova posted a message on State of Modern Thread: bans, format health, metagame, and more! (3/13 update)
    Quote from Stille_Nacht »
    Honestly I fee like some of the arguments on stoneforge mystic are disingenuous at best.

    1. It's not as fast as the godhands from various decks.
    Things like t3 breach are not comparable and not useful to bring up in the conversation. T3 breach is also faster and more broken than esper charm if it had a -5/-5 option, or a hexproof dark confidant. Comparing a single card to an undisrupted godhand that requires the entire deck be constructed around said godhand is silly.

    2. It doesn't slot directly into any of the current t1 decks
    True enough, and it would certainly be true that stoneforge would create new decks. However, that doesn't mean it's safe. If you banned prized amalgalm, dredge would be tier 3. Does that mean that dread return is ok? Of course not.

    3. Ok but it's not good enough to be broken.
    This is the most complex one to answer. I think people are fixating too much on trying to imagine overwhelming kill turns. That is very much not what stoneforge mystic does. Stoneforge mystic is strong because it is a cheap, efficient win-con, which significantly alleviates deck-building constraints. The ability to include a 7 card package with a 2 drop which wins the game by itself, no matter the actual clock, is extremely significant.

    I realize legacy is not modern, but check out the following:

    DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
    // Deck file created with mtgtop8.com
    // NAME : Death
    // CREATOR :
    // FORMAT : Legacy
    4 [DS] Aether Vial
    4 [TE] Wasteland
    3 [MM] Rishadan Port
    9 [RTR] Plains
    3 [LG] Karakas
    1 [CHK] Eiganjo Castle
    1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
    1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
    3 [TE] Ancient Tomb
    1 [NPH] Batterskull
    4 [C16] Swords to Plowshares
    1 [ORI] Vryn Wingmare
    2 [EMN] Thalia, Heretic Cathar
    4 [DKA] Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
    4 [CMD] Mother of Runes
    1 [CN2] Palace Jailer
    2 [M15] Phyrexian Revoker
    4 [C14] Flickerwisp
    2 [OGW] Eldrazi Displacer
    2 [C14] Containment Priest


    Notice that a lot of the creature inclusions are actually very weak when it comes to board presence. There's a lot of random bears and 3 drop hate creatures. Why is this deck good? It doesn't do anything that broken right? Sometimes it blinks a 4 drop with flickerwisp to exile something. How's that better than Eldrazi with eye of ugin, eldrazi temple, ancient tomb, city of traitors, and wasteland in its mana base? Surely ACTUAL CONSISTENT t2 thought-knot is better than t3 batterskull right? How's that better than Burn with Price of Progress and Fireblast? Surely burn having access to 8 damage spells is stronger?

    This entire deck is only good because the Stoneforge package provides enough winning potential for the rest of the deck to be devoted to disruption. You can play cards like phyrexian revoker and thalia, heretic cathar mainboard, the deck was even running 4 vryn wingmare at one point (now it's 1-2). This is what I mean by freeing up deck-building constraints.

    Similarly, if you conceptualize stoneforge as part of UW, you don't say "oh, I'm not racing affinity, so it's bad kappa". You never raced affinity as UW. If you could race affinity as UW, nobody would play anything but UW. Instead, you ask:

    Can UW include more spells because of the stoneforge package's win con?
    Can UW significantly lower its curve because of stoneforge's mana efficiency?
    Can UW get run currently non-viable spell packages because of the turn on which stoneforge stabilizes the board?
    Does the addition of stoneforge patch a significant portion of the weaknesses of a given UW build?
    Do any of these changes make UW too good?

    It is unlikely that stoneforge ever makes a deck unbeatable. The risk we need to think about is the creation of a deck which has a 55% win rate against almost everything. For example, imagine if a UW list found that it could lose a lot of its "survive vs. aggro" stuff like lightning helix and electrolyze because stoneforge is stabilizing the early game and focus on other matchups. Also all of you who don't think stoneforge is good against affinity are trippin. Like, they cast it turn 4 or 5 while holding up removal. It's insanely strong to be able to continue removing/countering things while threatening to poop out a 4/4 lifelinker at instant speed.

    Would it actually be broken? Difficult to say. Its CERTAINLY not "super safe". Unfortunately, I haven't tested anything with stoneforge since before the eldrazi winter.







    What makes DnT so strong has little to do with stoneforge mystic. It has more to do with legacy being a hyper-streamlined format, as well as using a lot of cantrips. Thalia does a lot more in legacy in modern, and you have at least 7 cards that protect her, unlike in modern. Adding an additional colorless to a brainstorm can ruin a deck that plays a very low land count, and uses those cantrips to hit said lands.
    Legacy DnT also has a much, much stronger unfair plan than the modern version does, thanks to vial letting you abuse the living hell out of port and wasteland. I've won far more games off vial+port/wasteland and thalia beats than I have off stoneforge. Heck, generally I don't even feel safe playing the stoneforge unless I can vial it in or protect it with mana disruption or mom, and that sort of gameplan is much weaker in modern.

    Also, I don't know why that list isn't playing recruiter of the guard, but that card is bonkers.
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • spidernova's avatar

    3

    May 1, 2017
    spidernova posted a message on What's Wrong With Today's Magic?
    Quote from bocephus »
    Quote from teach_the_controvesy »

    People have different opinions on everything. I have no idea where you're drawing the idea that differing views make customer input irrelevant or detrimental - they're exactly the reason companies ask for input in the first place.


    Because there are multiple factions with in th eplayer base, some desires over lap, most dont.

    Usually satisfied players dont complain. The only ones that complain are those upset. Wotc has to decide if those complaining will hurt the profit margin more then changing to the desires of those complaining and pissing off those enjoying at the moment.

    Its not a job I would like to have.

    People assume because they are upset with something, anything.. everyone else has to be too. That just isnt true.

    Not everyone cares about the art work, some people dont care about lore, some people are happy about mythics, some people dont play certain formats,not all players like all formats, not everyone is up in arms over prices, not everyone is upset at the lack of some types of decks in different formats, some people are not upset blue isnt playable in Modern, some people are not upset Legacy is becoming more and more a dead format.... I can keep going.

    So in short, what is 'wrong' with the game to one, is not going to be what is wrong to the next, or the next. And for every person that feels those things are 'wrong' others enjoy them.

    Its a no win situation. Wotc can not please everyone.

    Quote from thecasualoblivion »
    That's a strawman. Path/Push isn't the problem. The problem is things like Tarmogoyf, Scalding Tarn, Blood Moon, and Liliana of the Veil. All four of those cards were reprinted in Modern Masters 2017, and all are still $50+ and have not gone down in price significantly since the reprint.


    I might agree with you if those cards were needed to be competitive in Modern. They are not. You can play green without Goyf, you can play red blue without Tarns, you can play red without Moon, and you can play black without LotV and still top tournaments.

    Affordable is a slippery slope. As its been pointed out people are buying at the prices they are now. Just because you cant or wont pay, doesnt mean the game/cards are not affordable.

    The instant gratification crowd is another issue with the game. Just start playing the game and cry they cant play the top deck because its so expensive. Know how it was done back in the day? You played a lower priced deck, a deck you could 'afford' and play events and save up store credit or trade winnings for the cards you need for that other deck you want to play. Yes some complained here and there, but nothing like we hear now.




    Can't get store credit if you can't win though. And if you're playing a deck with a sub-50% winrate, like most budget decks, you aren't going to be breaking even. And this might be a personal experience thing, but most of the stores around me that offer store credit are quite heavy slanted toward top heavy payouts.
    At least where I play, entry is 6 dollars, and payouts go to a 3-1 or better finish. 3-0 gets 12, 4-0 gets 24. In that sort of setup you need to maintain a pretty high winrate over time, and that naturally slants the payouts toward people with the strictly best version of the deck or cards.
    Even if you are a fantastic player, there are going to be cases where you just lose games because your LOTV has been replaced with a necrogen mists, or you can't afford a 2 mana 4/5.
    I would actually argue that strong cards are even more important when players are skilled.

    And no you don't "need" LoTV, Goyf, Blood moon and the other top 10 most played cards in the format to play modern. If you want to win consistently, which is the most important part of grinding out store credit, you absolutely do. Take any budget deck you can throw together, and then run it though the modern gauntlet, with 10 or so games with every tier 1 or 2 deck. I've done this multiple times with my friends brews.Unless you managed to break the format wide open, which does happen, that deck is going to have a horrendous aggregate winrate, and might not even be high enough to break even on entry fees. It's just a numbers game.

    Posted in: Magic General
  • spidernova's avatar

    1

    May 1, 2017
    spidernova posted a message on What's Wrong With Today's Magic?
    Quote from JamesPrzytul »
    I believe it's a combination of two things easily correctable. One is planeswalkersby themselves snowball and not easy to remove. --> good against control.

    The other is removal is much weaker than creatures. So I feel when removal improves up to the level of creatures control will exist again.

    Planeswalkers will exist and still be a challenge to remove. I believe they are a net boon to aggressive-anti control strategies. They should be hard to remove as they are iconic. They do help control snowball as well but inherently make creature based aggro strategies a solution.

    What I would propose is removal swings on line with power of creatures.

    The issue with planeswalkers however is they are 1) easier to protect with control 2) easier to snowball with control 3) easier to draw with a control strategy

    What I would propose which wizards has not yet announced (they announced increasing power level of creature removal) is increasing the probability to draw planeswalkers for aggressive strategies above control.

    Example:

    When this creature comes into play you may search and put this planeswalker type on top of your library.

    When this creature comes into play you may reveal the top five cards of your deck and put a planeswalker into your hand. Put the remaining revealed cards on the bottom of your deck in any order.

    Really I think creature tutors for planeswalkers are the way for aggressive strategies to be on line with control. When control has removal to keep aggressive strategies at bay.

    Furthermore with Planeswalkers being iconic, this will allow the timmy/big creature player to draw and play their new iconic, flashy Nissa/Gideon/Jace more often.


    Are we playing different games? As far as I'm aware, traditional draw-go control is pretty much dead in every big format, and midrange or tempo has taken over it's role. Aggressive strategies don't need help, wizards has been pushing them for years. Control is what needs help to compete with on-cast, undercosted creatures, with way too much value per card.

    It's not a matter of that plainswakers are "easier to draw" It's that control decks see more cards in a game. And further, plainswalkers are 1 card engines, it just makes more sense for value midrange and control decks to play them. An aggro deck doesn't want to tap out on t5 for some value machine, it wants to just kill you there. Walkers are just better in midrange and control decks that draw the game out and hope to win over the long haul, as any single walker will generate value for free. Gee, I wonder why this deck that that aims to win on t9+ is more likely to play 6 mana walkers.
    It's a matter of deck construction, aggro doesn't generally play walkers as a result of that, unless it's a walker that can win the game fast, like gideon, 4 mana elspeth, and a couple otherwise.

    Your proposed walker tutor is also the kind of card that would see play in midrange and control, and not aggro. How much do you think that tutor effect is worth? I would bet that wizards would value it at 2 or 3 mana. Even if you have a 1/1/ or 2/2 body, that's still a 3/4 value drop. Not really where a deck that wants to win on t4-t5 wants to be.

    I mean, i'm leery of 1-card engines in general, and most of those are pretty easy to deal with or remove. Walkers are exactly that, and really hard to deal with, so in my mind, I think they need to be treated with far more caution than wizards has been doing.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • spidernova's avatar

    1

    Mar 7, 2017
    spidernova posted a message on State of Modern Thread: bans, format health, reprints, new cards, and more!
    Quote from Heenock »
    Why control players always cry for have a tier 1 Blue deck ? There are tons of Blue based decks which are highly performing. (http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/764899-state-of-modern-thread-bans-format-health-reprints?comment=5630)

    There has never been a tier 1 white deck and no one comes to cry "white need some love, pls wizards" ....

    You want the modern to become like legacy ? meta of 80% of blue decks and boring battles of counterspells ?

    +

    Unban Preordain will help more combo decks (ad nauseam, storm, reanimator) than control decks.




    I've been playing legacy for a couple years now, and I don't think I've ever seen "battles of counterspells", Most of the time it's minusing yourself off a FOW to just not lose on the spot, or using countermagic as an attrition tool.
    I highly doubt that unbanning one decent cantrip is going to turn the format into a blue hell.

    There are also plenty of really strong decks that don't need to play countermagic, thanks to every color getting strong answers, you get tools to keep combo in check like wasteland.
    Elves, 43 lands, Death and Taxes, Aggro Loam, the new sweet RB reanimator list, Eldrazi stompy(Which is terrifying to play against), are all really good decks. Sure, meta may be skewed blue, but the difference between a tier 1 and a tier 2, or even tier 3 deck in legacy is a lot smaller than it is in modern, and every color gets to do broken stuff.

    And honestly, yeah, I do think that modern could do to be more like legacy. At the very least, you don't need to ban the best deck in legacy every 6 months.
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • spidernova's avatar

    1

    Feb 9, 2017
    spidernova posted a message on State of Modern Thread: bans, format health, reprints, new cards, and more!
    Quote from xxhellfirexx3 »
    Quote from cfusionpm »
    Relevant video that summarizes pretty well how I feel about Magic right now.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AytGwG9vZhw


    Idk standard needed those bans imo. The dredge and probe ban where warranted, and divining top needs a ban in Legacy for sure.

    Bans balance numbers even if they hurt players investments.although some bans where incorrect I admit.

    And the video does shine a light on one of wizards ban criteria in which I favor, aka, battle of sideboards.

    This next year of magic is going to be interesting as I feel a certain developer needs to be fired.....or pick up his socks.


    Nah, Top's fine. Miracles got the ban it needed when DTT got the axe.
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • spidernova's avatar

    1

    Feb 5, 2017
    spidernova posted a message on State of Modern Thread: bans, format health, reprints, new cards, and more!
    Quote from Aegraen »
    There are 3 good cards on the banlist that would help Control - Preordain, JTMS, and Dig Through Time (this more than the others I'd wager) - well....and Sensei's Top, but that is probably the least likely (CounterTop would be fantastic). I'm hoping we'll get one of these next unban and maybe two. Preordain and DTT would be fantastic imho helping out 2 of the big problem areas for control decks. With WoTC on about printing better answers that would be a good direction. If they're afraid of DTT in Ad Naus, then you can hit that deck. Control and the format at large shouldn't needlessly suffer because of 1 or 2 combo decks imho.


    Of those three cards, DTT is the most busted by quite a long shot. It's pretty much always 7 cards deep at instant speed for UU. And even more egregiously, it doesn't even draw the cards, it just puts em right in your hand.
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • spidernova's avatar

    1

    Jan 31, 2017
    spidernova posted a message on State of Modern Thread: bans, format health, reprints, new cards, and more!
    Quote from Jayman21 »
    Quote from bizzycola »
    Quote from Shmanka »
    It seems disingenuous to me for people to claim that Force of Will is too powerful for Modern. Those same people generally refer to Legacy and the Blue dominance that format has, yet in reality, the Blue Dominance is obviously created by Brainstorm.

    Force of Will is only as good as the decks that decide to fully dedicate themselves to a glass cannon, otherwise even in Legacy you side them out in all the fair matchups, and some decks don't even run the full four in the maindeck.


    FoW, Daze, Brainstorm are all the reason why blue is so dominate with out each other they each are slightly diminished. I don't board out FoW against countertop which is a fair control deck, etc.. yes in the delver v delver(lets get real those are the fair decks) you board it out because card advantage is more important and you both run daze etc.. so it just becomes less crucial.

    If modern cannot handle Metal Misstep a card that only counters 1c.c. spells for free how does it make any sense to say a card that can counter any card for free as long as it doesn't say "cannot be countered" would be safe.


    Miracles is hardly a fair deck. It is a prison combocontrol deck. The only fair decks in legacy Delver and bug decks.


    What about Jund, Maverick,DnT, Merfolk?
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • spidernova's avatar

    2

    Jan 16, 2017
    spidernova posted a message on Why can't we have products like pokemon has?
    Quote from idSurge »
    Modern is not too steep, you really need to stop that line. $500-$700 is nothing to jump into a hobby.

    Also, in one of those fat packs or whatever, I pulled 2 Torrential Gearhulk are they good? Dont know. :p


    In terms of other non-40k tabletop hobbies, it absolutely is.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • spidernova's avatar

    1

    Oct 29, 2016
    spidernova posted a message on "Better" or "Higher Tier" Decks Criteria
    I'll go with the even match, I play DnT in legacy, and while it generally has decent matchups across the board, it doesn't really get free wins, even against decks you should beat, you still can just lose.
    Posted in: Magic General
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