Then you could get Zealous Constripts (plus any 1 drop) and copy/untap feldon and make another protean hulk. You now have 11 hasty power. 6 of which is a protean hulk that will sacrifice itself at EOT.
Or for 3 more mana, sacrifice the hulk and get Combat celebrant and another haste enabler like Hellraiser Goblin or Inner-flame acolyte Then you attack for 11ish and untap. Then for 3 more mana you can make another hulk
If you already have fervor or equivalent you can get some creatures that produce mana on etb to get more hulks, or just get more dudes and extra combat steps with creatures like Scourge of the throne. If someone boardwipes while you have a protean hulk and a fervor, you should probably be able to kill at least 1 person.
I have made several decks that can now combo out before turn 4 without making any changes besides adding protean hulk. Also, my mono black deck instantly wins if it necromancy's or puppeteer clique's someone else's protean hulk and my blue/X decks can win off a bribery/mind control/Clone effect plus sac outlet/removal/board wipe for the most part.
Heck, if I ever steel it off of a Preacher activation, I'm pretty sure I can win the game Somehow in my mono white deck. Might need a sac outlet, but it makes a lot of tokens so I do have some. I object to the poll's implication that we have to modify a deck to combo out with the unban. I'm literally just sliding it in and going to end games out of nowhere.
Flash-Hulk in EDH requires Grand Architect, Pili-Pala and a way to use the infinite mana like Thrasios, Triton Hero. Else you're looking at 4-colour decks.
The thing that keeps this combo in the realm of not being why it gets banned is that Pili-Palla isn't a card you run if you want to do fair stuff anyway, and you still do require two specific cards on hand and is not a one-card-i-win kind of deal.
4 colors isn't that bad anymore anyway and thrasios, triton hero is a fine commander that would run cards like those anyway since it wins with infinite mana. 4 color boon weaver is a thing that exists and gets much better.
I'm also concerned with the fact that any reasonably creature focused deck with black in it can win the game off getting control of someone else's protean hulk. I like the graveyard and creatures, so I've built maybe more than 3 or 4 decks that can all now accidentally win the game before turn 4.
Strictly in this case means exactly and rigidly held to be so. Rigidly as in inflexible, and without exception. In the case of "better" it is used to denote when something is better in all ways than something else. So in the case of Strictly better, a stripe mine is not strictly better than a mountain, which can tap for red. Whether or not strictly better is still a useful term given the absurd volume of card interactions is another thing entirely.
Is it more useful to use the term incorrectly? Probably, if you at least show a card is in most reasonable cases better.
I understand the feelings of many people who preferred the old rule for reasons of balance or whatever. I just don't think that changing it ruins the balance.
And I really don't think it is fair to question the judgement of the RC over it because it wasn't a balance change. It was a design change and it isn't hard to argue that the change is clearly better game design. There are more concerns with the development of the format than just what cards are too format warping. Decisions that seem strange to a lot of people look that way because people are expecting balance updates and never design updates.
I run into a lot of people even now who ask me why anyone would make that change, but when I explain it to them they have no argument against it (even if they still don't like it).
Also, did losing tuck seriously affect people that much? All of the commanders I want to tuck have access to tuck and better ways at avoiding tuck than other commanders. It always seemed to make derevi, oloro, sharum etc more degenerate rather than less. For the rest I already have a lot of removal to deal with already.
The purpose of something is the reason for which it was created. So it can only be the creators of the format.
However the purpose doesn't matter. It is a mistake to put any sort of extra significance on it.
Magic will always be different to every person. The purpose of formats are usually completely irrelevant to the games you play. If you change the way you play just because you discover the purpose was different from what you thought then I guess it matters to you a little.
Normally, whatever the reason it is what it is,
It is what it is. Make the most of it. Whatever that means for you.
Martyr's bond is my personal favorite. In most cases I find it is harder to deal with an enchantment or artifact than a creature, I'm typically happy if someone chooses to sac an artifact because odd are the creature would die anyway. Also 2 White is significantly easier for me to cast and the fact that grave pact could theoretically come down 2 turns earlier has rarely been relevant for me.
However it should be noted that I run a lot of support for martyr's bond. For example
Artifact creatures
and sometimes enchantment creatures.
So it usually gets extra triggers. Plus it triggers for itself, which I think makes it clearly better than grave pact. Butcher is second place for me, but I often cheated him into play.
Back home we didn't do proxies, but CE and World's deck cards were fine. I never thought about it till now, but that is a little weird. So I asked an old friend why that was and they said that someone at some point in time actually talked to someone involved in EDH rules committee and they said they were totally fine with considering gold bordered cards as real cards, not as proxies. It was in the spirit of the format to be loose about some things to improve availability without completely removing the restriction your personal collection has on deck building. He also said that is why so many gold bordered cards retain some value, because they are EDH legal.
Again I'm hearing this 3rd hand at this point, but what does anyone think about That idea?
Glissa, the traitor or mono green glissa? I'm pretty sure BG glissa can keep up with those decks. You definitely don't Need to go blue to deal with it. None of the commanders do anything ETB. You can deal with all that stuff with activated abilities and instants.
The colors I would start with to deal with all that is White, it has a lot of ways to deal with the kinds of decks you are running into.
IF you Really want to though, The Mimeoplasm isn't just a graveyard deck. It is combo control deck that can use the graveyard to win, or just for value. You don't have to go all in on the graveyard at all. I think it is good match for what you are asking for.
The point of any format is to be played. Magic is successful because different kinds of people can play the same game for different reasons. I disagree entirely with the idea that there is some correct spirit of any format that everyone should adhere to. The solution that should happen is that Everyone should make their decks more interactive.
That said if you really really have to have things just so. You need to be clear, concise and have examples. With clear benchmarks people can at least understand the gist of what you want. I mean, I've played in 10 different cardstores (and many non cardstore locations) and no where have I found such a restrictive and sensitive meta as was described in the OP of this post. Be prepared for people to understand and still reject it because your friends sound kinda... boring? That sounds harsh. I mean to say that fun people are fun because they find fun where average people don't. If a guy can't have fun unless things are really restricted then he's probably below average fun-ness
I mean seriously, No counterspells? Some are really fun and create interesting situations. The best part of EDH for me is when you have to think about new things in strange circumstances. Hinder won't make friends, but remand is fun. Everyone knows what's coming and it draws a card, and sometimes it doesn't help and they just cast it again. It can put commanders into hands instead of command zone which is a little fun too.
People forgetting arcane denial triggers and laughing about it, or randomly countering something just for the card draw effects. There's ways to have counterspells and be the fun, interactive guy.
I love when cards change controllers. You get so many interesting interactions!
I actually played a game where pretty much the only thing that happened was creature stealing, reanimation, and field wipes (including mass bounce). We were all playing reanimate effects and 2 of us were playing blue.
Every creature ETBed at least 4 times. there were 5 wraths and 3 mass bounces. The game took 5 hours before we all agreed to stop playing.
And guess what? It was a Blast. We had fun and we still talk about that crazy game that never ended.
DEN hate surprised me when I first got online. I mean, I know a couple people that run it and a bunch of combos with it. I've never seen it win or even severely warp a game though. I guess we're just a meta that can handle it?
Sylvan primordial however has almost always ruined the game for at least one person. Even when people are trying to be fair with it. "I'll just blow up that combo piece to save us all and Whoops! Just landoed the guy in last place because it isn't a may ability." You can bet (between cloning and reanimation) anyone lacking noncreature bombs is going to lose a lot of land no matter how nice everyone is.
I get around this by taking an active interest in people's decks. I find out what they like, what they want to do in a game, themes they like, and anything else I can about the way they build their deck. Then I build a better version of their deck in my head and give them cheap cards from it and trade/recommend anything I can't outright give to them.
For less than 10 dollars in cards and maybe some generous trading I find you can close the gap by quite a lot. People tend to not hate you as much when you give them cards and fun ideas. Sometimes if the gap is really big I take the opportunity to run the really cool cards that normally get me killed. Like Tombstone Stairwell or Dual nature. Really fun and interesting cards (I'm not running a token deck). I miss when Dual nature used to be super awesome commander tech, back when it blew up legends. For nostalgia I rock it and other "symmetrical" stuff like heartwood storyteller and Veteran explorer. Am I still gonna win? Yes. By a lot. But will it also make the game more interesting and give everyone else more things to do! I played combo control and people would argue over who got to play in my pod!
People get a little confused. Let's lay it out super duper clear for anyone with this concern.
Soul bond is a trigger. You can kill him in response to the trigger before he gains his soul bond ability.
Didn't draw the removal until after he bonded?
"If you cast removal, he will blink!"
But After he blinks (or his partner blinks)Soul Bond Triggers Again!
In response to the trigger any instant speed removal can kill him before he gains the ability to blink.
If he never blinks? Then he isn't doing jack anyway. You don't actually need to have 2 removal effects. You can just wait for him to try to use it on someone else and kill it in response to the trigger.
I would just kill Elesh. It's just a creature. With no protection even. People in this thread seem to be treating Natural affinity as though it was an enchantment, but it is an instant. Faith's reward, and Second sunrise would save the lands (and ramp you kinda sorta). Just float the mana, let the lands become creatures, then cast the spell before phase/step ends. They don't become creatures again because it isn't a static effect to make them creatures. The cards work well with uril too, who can be brought back from an Oblivion stone-like whipe fully loaded.
In colors you don't have, anything that causes Elesh to lose her abilities until the end of turn would Also stop that card combo from killing the lands.
There Are at least 2 different enchantments that make all lands 1/1s, if those are a problem I really really recommend being able to blow up the Elesh.
Feldon, of the third path, Lightning Mauler and Scorched Rusalka/Krark-clan shaman soulbond to feldon and make another hulk.
Then you could get Zealous Constripts (plus any 1 drop) and copy/untap feldon and make another protean hulk. You now have 11 hasty power. 6 of which is a protean hulk that will sacrifice itself at EOT.
Or for 3 more mana, sacrifice the hulk and get Combat celebrant and another haste enabler like Hellraiser Goblin or Inner-flame acolyte Then you attack for 11ish and untap. Then for 3 more mana you can make another hulk
If you already have fervor or equivalent you can get some creatures that produce mana on etb to get more hulks, or just get more dudes and extra combat steps with creatures like Scourge of the throne. If someone boardwipes while you have a protean hulk and a fervor, you should probably be able to kill at least 1 person.
Or you can throw Kiki-jiki, Mirror breaker into the mix and kill everyone.
Heck, if I ever steel it off of a Preacher activation, I'm pretty sure I can win the game Somehow in my mono white deck. Might need a sac outlet, but it makes a lot of tokens so I do have some. I object to the poll's implication that we have to modify a deck to combo out with the unban. I'm literally just sliding it in and going to end games out of nowhere.
You can also combo off using Black/Blue/green with cards you would already be running in a graveyard/creature based deck. Like Mikaeus, the unhallowed blood artist Visera seer puppeteer clique phyrexian delver. Those are all good cards reasonable Sidisi, Brood tyrant deck might reasonably use, and adding more of them wouldn't take up that much room.
4 colors isn't that bad anymore anyway and thrasios, triton hero is a fine commander that would run cards like those anyway since it wins with infinite mana. 4 color boon weaver is a thing that exists and gets much better.
I'm also concerned with the fact that any reasonably creature focused deck with black in it can win the game off getting control of someone else's protean hulk. I like the graveyard and creatures, so I've built maybe more than 3 or 4 decks that can all now accidentally win the game before turn 4.
Is it more useful to use the term incorrectly? Probably, if you at least show a card is in most reasonable cases better.
That's English for ya.
And I really don't think it is fair to question the judgement of the RC over it because it wasn't a balance change. It was a design change and it isn't hard to argue that the change is clearly better game design. There are more concerns with the development of the format than just what cards are too format warping. Decisions that seem strange to a lot of people look that way because people are expecting balance updates and never design updates.
I run into a lot of people even now who ask me why anyone would make that change, but when I explain it to them they have no argument against it (even if they still don't like it).
Also, did losing tuck seriously affect people that much? All of the commanders I want to tuck have access to tuck and better ways at avoiding tuck than other commanders. It always seemed to make derevi, oloro, sharum etc more degenerate rather than less. For the rest I already have a lot of removal to deal with already.
However the purpose doesn't matter. It is a mistake to put any sort of extra significance on it.
Magic will always be different to every person. The purpose of formats are usually completely irrelevant to the games you play. If you change the way you play just because you discover the purpose was different from what you thought then I guess it matters to you a little.
Normally, whatever the reason it is what it is,
It is what it is. Make the most of it. Whatever that means for you.
However it should be noted that I run a lot of support for martyr's bond. For example
Artifact creatures
and sometimes enchantment creatures.
So it usually gets extra triggers. Plus it triggers for itself, which I think makes it clearly better than grave pact. Butcher is second place for me, but I often cheated him into play.
Again I'm hearing this 3rd hand at this point, but what does anyone think about That idea?
The colors I would start with to deal with all that is White, it has a lot of ways to deal with the kinds of decks you are running into.
IF you Really want to though, The Mimeoplasm isn't just a graveyard deck. It is combo control deck that can use the graveyard to win, or just for value. You don't have to go all in on the graveyard at all. I think it is good match for what you are asking for.
That said if you really really have to have things just so. You need to be clear, concise and have examples. With clear benchmarks people can at least understand the gist of what you want. I mean, I've played in 10 different cardstores (and many non cardstore locations) and no where have I found such a restrictive and sensitive meta as was described in the OP of this post. Be prepared for people to understand and still reject it because your friends sound kinda... boring? That sounds harsh. I mean to say that fun people are fun because they find fun where average people don't. If a guy can't have fun unless things are really restricted then he's probably below average fun-ness
I mean seriously, No counterspells? Some are really fun and create interesting situations. The best part of EDH for me is when you have to think about new things in strange circumstances. Hinder won't make friends, but remand is fun. Everyone knows what's coming and it draws a card, and sometimes it doesn't help and they just cast it again. It can put commanders into hands instead of command zone which is a little fun too.
People forgetting arcane denial triggers and laughing about it, or randomly countering something just for the card draw effects. There's ways to have counterspells and be the fun, interactive guy.
I love when cards change controllers. You get so many interesting interactions!
I actually played a game where pretty much the only thing that happened was creature stealing, reanimation, and field wipes (including mass bounce). We were all playing reanimate effects and 2 of us were playing blue.
Every creature ETBed at least 4 times. there were 5 wraths and 3 mass bounces. The game took 5 hours before we all agreed to stop playing.
And guess what? It was a Blast. We had fun and we still talk about that crazy game that never ended.
Sylvan primordial however has almost always ruined the game for at least one person. Even when people are trying to be fair with it. "I'll just blow up that combo piece to save us all and Whoops! Just landoed the guy in last place because it isn't a may ability." You can bet (between cloning and reanimation) anyone lacking noncreature bombs is going to lose a lot of land no matter how nice everyone is.
I get around this by taking an active interest in people's decks. I find out what they like, what they want to do in a game, themes they like, and anything else I can about the way they build their deck. Then I build a better version of their deck in my head and give them cheap cards from it and trade/recommend anything I can't outright give to them.
For less than 10 dollars in cards and maybe some generous trading I find you can close the gap by quite a lot. People tend to not hate you as much when you give them cards and fun ideas. Sometimes if the gap is really big I take the opportunity to run the really cool cards that normally get me killed. Like Tombstone Stairwell or Dual nature. Really fun and interesting cards (I'm not running a token deck). I miss when Dual nature used to be super awesome commander tech, back when it blew up legends. For nostalgia I rock it and other "symmetrical" stuff like heartwood storyteller and Veteran explorer. Am I still gonna win? Yes. By a lot. But will it also make the game more interesting and give everyone else more things to do! I played combo control and people would argue over who got to play in my pod!
Soul bond is a trigger. You can kill him in response to the trigger before he gains his soul bond ability.
Didn't draw the removal until after he bonded?
"If you cast removal, he will blink!"
But After he blinks (or his partner blinks)Soul Bond Triggers Again!
In response to the trigger any instant speed removal can kill him before he gains the ability to blink.
If he never blinks? Then he isn't doing jack anyway. You don't actually need to have 2 removal effects. You can just wait for him to try to use it on someone else and kill it in response to the trigger.
In colors you don't have, anything that causes Elesh to lose her abilities until the end of turn would Also stop that card combo from killing the lands.
There Are at least 2 different enchantments that make all lands 1/1s, if those are a problem I really really recommend being able to blow up the Elesh.
Echo isn't a problem with reanimator though so I guess your mileage may vary.
It was often relevant to have 2 power blockers compared to typical 1/1 fodder, and it almost activates Mosswort bridge by itself.