Entirely baseless but what if Razaketh is one of the 5 gods? It would explain Why Liliana is so concerned about dealing with him. Also seeing a Demon God card would be pretty cool.
We don't know that they COMPLETELY missed each other, there is a story gap at the point at which a theoretical meeting would have occurred.
The timelines are estimates, we do not know for certain. It is unclear how long the gaps are.
Nahiri escaped about a year ago, Ugin was on Zendikar less than a year ago. I do not see why it is impossible for them to have met.
I'm not trying to say that this is definitively what happened, only that it is a plausible scenario that also happens to explain some significant plot holes. Thus far I have not seen any concrete timelines that show that this scenario is impossible.
Ugg, I am getting frustrated and I feel like every point I am attempting to make is being missed entirely. I am going to bed after this.
About a year ago Nahiri escaped. Relatively recently she completed the cryptolith alignment. Within that time gap we know that Ugin was at The Eye and had been there for an unknown period of time. Also I have heard nothing of Ugin spending time on Tarkir after waking up. At most Nahiri and Ugin missed each other by 6 months, easily less.
I would have to go back and reread the story, but the story Vorthospike is referencing about Nahiri seeing the eldrazi destroy an unknown plane. I remember the story not having physically manifestations of the eldrazi.
What I am attempting to establish is if their is concrete evidence that eliminates this theory. As of yet I haven't heard any. Does it seem unlikely? Sure, but if there is any thing I've learned from Wizard's storytelling its that just because something seems improbable given the current info, that doesn't eliminate it as a possibility.
I'm very confident that Emrakul will be trapped in the moon. My record thus far with plotline predictions has Been perfect.
I am assembling a narrative that does not rely on retcons and stretches on Nahiri's abilities. The eldrazi should not be visible on Innistrad, that is quite clear and has been established, so without a RETCON that they are always visible, there needs to be some explanation as to why we can see Emrakul on Innistrad. Ugin's involvement makes the most sense.
My understanding is about a year ago Nahiri escaped from the Helvault and went to Zendikar. Towards the beginning of the Zendikar story Ugin had been at the Eye for an unknown period of time. And then the rest of the Zendikar story happened. And then the Shadows over Innistrad story happened, at which point Nahiri had completed all of her machinations with the cryptoliths.
I would say that at most Nahiri and Ugin missed each other by 6 months and easily less than that.
I'm wondering about Ugin's involvement in all this. We know that both Ugin and Nahiri were at the Eye of Ugin around the same time and Ugin has made comments about not trusting Sorin. And there was a convenient gap in Nahiri's story just after she returned to Zendikar.
Ugin was still 'dead' when Nahiri was at the eye and she should have set off for Innistard right after the story so there was no chance for Nahiri to meet Ugin. Also there is no convenient gap in Nahiri's story, each moment is accounted for so at no point should she have met Ugin.
That is my point. Do we have timeline confirmation that they could not possibly have both been at The Eye at the same time? From what I have seen, it is conveniently vague. Someone correct me if I missed something.
To Vorthospike's point about Ugin being more concerned about Ulamog and Kozilek not being destroyed. It would stand to reason that the best way to keep naive idiot neowalkers from killing the titans would be to re-trap them as quickly as possible.
We don't know that she hasn't had to modify the moon to make it function as a prison. Sorin clearly had to work to make the Helvault, he didn't just cleave a chunk off the moon.
The point about The Eye is that there is an oddly convenient gap in the story and an oddly convenient lack of clarity on the specifics of the timeline.
The bigger issue is that the Eldrazi aren't supposed to have physical forms when feeding on a plane. The manifestations on Zendikar were the work of the planeswalkers to create a form that could be trapped. According to this logic, Emrakul should be invisible on Innistrad.
The theory is obviously baseless speculation. I'm just noting some odd coincidences and tying them together in the most probable way.
Ugin seemed surprisingly unconcerned with Ulamog and Kozilek loose on Zendikar
Yeah but Ugin didn't seem to concerned about the Eldrazi being loose in the first place. As far as I can tell from his few brief conversations with others Ugin doesn't particularly care about anything.
I disagree. Yes Ugin has a palpable oldwalker aloofness towards the concerns of mortals. However, if he "didn't care about anything" he wouldn't have bothered trapping the eldrazi in the very first place.
Also he very much cares about the eldrazi being destroyed.
So Ugin knew this and sent Jace to find Sorin knowing it'd lead to his likely death? Clever way to get back at somebody...
Yeah, I'll admit the theory falls apart there. But given the fact that Jace so royally screwed up on Zendikar, Ugin may have just wanted him out of his hair (or horns, or whatever) just like most of us feel about Jace. Or Ugin may have wanted to have a LONG talk with Sorin and was just using Jace as an errand boy. Or some combination therein.
Jace went to The Eye and found Ugin there. Nahiri went to The Eye after leaving Innistrad.
Were Ugin and Nahiri at The Eye at the same time? We don't know. Did Ugin help Nahiri lure Emrakul to Innistrad with the goal of trapping her (and potentially Ulamog and Kozilek as well) in Innistrad's Moon?
Ugin seemed surprisingly unconcerned with Ulamog and Kozilek loose on Zendikar, and extremely concerned with them not being destroyed. Almost as if Ugin knew that there was a plot in place to re-imprison all three titans.
Well the point is that the eldrazi normally lack physical forms. They were given physical manifestations by the planeswalkers on Zendikar so that there could be a "something" to trap. In other words, the fact that Emrakul can be seen is contradictory to what we had been told about the nature of the eldrazi.
Now that said, I don't think it will end up being a retcon, and here is why.
Yes it is a tough sell that Nahiri, as a neowalker, by herself, in one year, accomplished the equivalent amount of work that took 3 oldwalkers 40 years to complete.
But what if she didn't do it all by herself?
In the gap between Stone and Blood and Emrakul Rises, Nahiri was at the Eye of Ugin. What other major character do we know was at The Eye around the same time? Ugin. We know Ugin distrusts Sorin and that repairing the hedron network would be nearly impossible with 3 titans rampaging about. From the Zendikar story we know that Ugin was adamant that Kozilek and Ulamog not be killed, almost as if he knew that there were other plans to deal with them.
Obviously this is baseless speculation, but it does fill in a lot of gaps. And to my credit, thus far I've been correct months in advance about Nahiri having been in the Helvault and her bringing Emrakul to Innistrad.
I'm wondering about Ugin's involvement in all this. We know that both Ugin and Nahiri were at the Eye of Ugin around the same time and Ugin has made comments about not trusting Sorin. And there was a convenient gap in Nahiri's story just after she returned to Zendikar.
I think the grim reality is that there are only a handful of directions the story can go overall. Emrakul destroyed = Eldrazi underwhelmingly impotent. Innistrad destroyed = fanbase enraged. Emrakul imprisoned in the moon for later plot use = Nahiri's quote comes to full fruition without the negatives of the other options.
The timelines are estimates, we do not know for certain. It is unclear how long the gaps are.
Nahiri escaped about a year ago, Ugin was on Zendikar less than a year ago. I do not see why it is impossible for them to have met.
I'm not trying to say that this is definitively what happened, only that it is a plausible scenario that also happens to explain some significant plot holes. Thus far I have not seen any concrete timelines that show that this scenario is impossible.
About a year ago Nahiri escaped. Relatively recently she completed the cryptolith alignment. Within that time gap we know that Ugin was at The Eye and had been there for an unknown period of time. Also I have heard nothing of Ugin spending time on Tarkir after waking up. At most Nahiri and Ugin missed each other by 6 months, easily less.
I would have to go back and reread the story, but the story Vorthospike is referencing about Nahiri seeing the eldrazi destroy an unknown plane. I remember the story not having physically manifestations of the eldrazi.
What I am attempting to establish is if their is concrete evidence that eliminates this theory. As of yet I haven't heard any. Does it seem unlikely? Sure, but if there is any thing I've learned from Wizard's storytelling its that just because something seems improbable given the current info, that doesn't eliminate it as a possibility.
I'm very confident that Emrakul will be trapped in the moon. My record thus far with plotline predictions has Been perfect.
I am assembling a narrative that does not rely on retcons and stretches on Nahiri's abilities. The eldrazi should not be visible on Innistrad, that is quite clear and has been established, so without a RETCON that they are always visible, there needs to be some explanation as to why we can see Emrakul on Innistrad. Ugin's involvement makes the most sense.
I would say that at most Nahiri and Ugin missed each other by 6 months and easily less than that.
That is my point. Do we have timeline confirmation that they could not possibly have both been at The Eye at the same time? From what I have seen, it is conveniently vague. Someone correct me if I missed something.
To Vorthospike's point about Ugin being more concerned about Ulamog and Kozilek not being destroyed. It would stand to reason that the best way to keep naive idiot neowalkers from killing the titans would be to re-trap them as quickly as possible.
The point about The Eye is that there is an oddly convenient gap in the story and an oddly convenient lack of clarity on the specifics of the timeline.
The bigger issue is that the Eldrazi aren't supposed to have physical forms when feeding on a plane. The manifestations on Zendikar were the work of the planeswalkers to create a form that could be trapped. According to this logic, Emrakul should be invisible on Innistrad.
The theory is obviously baseless speculation. I'm just noting some odd coincidences and tying them together in the most probable way.
I disagree. Yes Ugin has a palpable oldwalker aloofness towards the concerns of mortals. However, if he "didn't care about anything" he wouldn't have bothered trapping the eldrazi in the very first place.
Also he very much cares about the eldrazi being destroyed.
Yeah, I'll admit the theory falls apart there. But given the fact that Jace so royally screwed up on Zendikar, Ugin may have just wanted him out of his hair (or horns, or whatever) just like most of us feel about Jace. Or Ugin may have wanted to have a LONG talk with Sorin and was just using Jace as an errand boy. Or some combination therein.
Jace went to The Eye and found Ugin there. Nahiri went to The Eye after leaving Innistrad.
Were Ugin and Nahiri at The Eye at the same time? We don't know. Did Ugin help Nahiri lure Emrakul to Innistrad with the goal of trapping her (and potentially Ulamog and Kozilek as well) in Innistrad's Moon?
Ugin seemed surprisingly unconcerned with Ulamog and Kozilek loose on Zendikar, and extremely concerned with them not being destroyed. Almost as if Ugin knew that there was a plot in place to re-imprison all three titans.
Now that said, I don't think it will end up being a retcon, and here is why.
Yes it is a tough sell that Nahiri, as a neowalker, by herself, in one year, accomplished the equivalent amount of work that took 3 oldwalkers 40 years to complete.
But what if she didn't do it all by herself?
In the gap between Stone and Blood and Emrakul Rises, Nahiri was at the Eye of Ugin. What other major character do we know was at The Eye around the same time? Ugin. We know Ugin distrusts Sorin and that repairing the hedron network would be nearly impossible with 3 titans rampaging about. From the Zendikar story we know that Ugin was adamant that Kozilek and Ulamog not be killed, almost as if he knew that there were other plans to deal with them.
Obviously this is baseless speculation, but it does fill in a lot of gaps. And to my credit, thus far I've been correct months in advance about Nahiri having been in the Helvault and her bringing Emrakul to Innistrad.