I read the thread here and see the bemoaning of the lack of control. Control does need a power up, control in the traditional sense. The problem is, any unbannings or reprints not only helps control but also powers up Twin. Put Counterspell in Modern, it gives control a great tool but it also makes Twin better. Same with Ponder and Preordain.
So here's a rather radical idea: Ban Pestermite and Deceiver Exarch. It shifts Twin from being a very powerful U/R tempo deck with a combo kill to a straight up W/R combo deck using Village Bell Ringer or the Kiki-Resto combo. Yes it can splash U, but it would be considerably less consistent.
yeah i love that list, that's what I'm currently using though I just changed 1 heliod for 1 stubborn denial....
what I can't figure out is the 3 treasure cruises...i think 2 should be enough, where do you side in the third?
I like the list as well. I'd swap the Stratus Walk and an Ajani's Presence for a couple of Valorous Stance though. I don't know about the 3 Treasure Cruises either. Maybe in a match up where you face a ton of removal and you think you can't stick an Ordeal? I don't know.
4th place at the last PTQ here in Alaska. Ended up 5-2-1 losing in the semis to G/R Devotion. Had a weird sideboard do to not being able to find a second Trailblazer.
Round 1: Sidisi Whip. Loss.
Lost in 3 games. Lost a very long game 1 not being able to draw enough cards or an Aqueous Form. Roll him over in game 2 with a quick turn 1 Hoplite with protection and Aqueous Form. Game 3 lost another close one when he drew too much removal and I didn't have enough protection. 0-1
Round 2: Abzan Aggro. Win.
Another 3 game set but with a win. Lost a quick game 1 when my opponent played 2 Fleecemane Lions and a Rhino to my Favored Hoplite. Rolled in Games 2 and 3 with Glare and Stance keeping his board clear. 1-1.
Round 3: U/B Control. Win.
2-0 win. Fairly quick games as I was able to stick a Battlewise Hoplite with Aqueous Form and Ordeal of Thassa for a lot of scry and draw. 2-1.
Round 4: Jeskai Tokens. Win.
I was feeling pretty by this point after a close round 1 loss. Sat down only to find my opponent was a local pro with 2 PT Top 8s. Lovely. He rolled me game 1 burning my creatures and killing me with Ascendancy powered tokens. Game 2 I stuck a Hero of Iroas with 2 Ordeal of Heliod's and an Aqueous Form. He didn't have enough gas to deal 40 and I won. Game 3 I got a Favored Hoplite out and protected it, he flooded out and I won 2-1.
Round 5: R/G Monsters. Win.
Lost a very quick game 1 on a bad keep at one land, didn't draw another and lost quickly. Game 2 I went Favored, Battlewise, Hero with an Ordeal of Heliod, Ordeal of Thassa, and Aqueous form. He got a Stormbreath out but he was already behind. Game 3 I rode a Battlewise Hoplite in a close game until I Disdainful Stroked a Stormbreath, drew an Ordeal of Heliod, and ran away. 4-1 now.
Round 6: Sidisi Whip. Draw.
Standings were a mess going into this round with 4 unbeatens, 5 on 4-1, and 4 on 3-1-1. We began playing but the other matches finished as we were finishing game 3 with me way ahead and we drew. 4-1-1.
Ended up 5th seed, my round 6 opponent was the odd man out at 9th. In hindsight I could've taken the win in Round 6 and been #1 seed but I didn't want to be the bad guy.
Quarterfinals: Soulflayer/Chromanticore. Win.
This one was a funny match up. First, I was playing guy I used to work with and hadn't seen in a few years. Second, it was match up of the "rogue" decks in the Top 8. Anyways, I lost Game 1 when hit tons of tokens off of Sidisi and I couldn't draw an Aqueous Form. Game 2 I hit a Favored Hoplite early, protected it, and rode it to a win. Game 3 started poorly when he removed a couple of my creatures and he hit Sidisi. I took a risk tapping out for a Fabled Hero, I had 3 other creatures in hand, but he let me untap. An Ordeal of Heliod helped me keep my life total up until I drew an Aqueous Form and swung for 14 and the win.
Semifinals: G/R Devotion. Loss.
Game 1 I stuck a couple of creatures and rode them. My opponent went off to cast an Ugin but my one of Stubborn Denial countered it. That led to what I thought was a pretty dick move. He asked me how copies I ran maindeck, I said one, he didn't believe me and made the judge, his friend, check my decklist. Anyways, games 2 and 3 I couldn't race him fast enough and he landed Ugin both games for the win.
Ended in 4th place. Was the only in the field on the deck. Fabled Hero was better than I thought. He's good against decks with removal, they remove 1 or 2, you drop him and he can close things out quick. Valorous Stance was really good as well, both modes came in handy.
What this Pro Tour is highlighting is there is just absolutely nothing in the way of a good control deck. All these burn decks and creature decks would just fold if a proper Control deck lived in the format, but it doesn't, so they thrive. Kudos Wizards, for destroying your own pet format.
Also, decks that rely on cards like Blinkmoth Nexus and Gavony Township would just fold if there was proper land destruction, but that's out of the question, too.
I'm done with watching Burn and Abzan for another round. I'm going to bed!
Bocephus, I don't think you need to think of it as them "powering down" standard for that specific purpose, but instead that there could be an environment where they are suitable without that environment being specifically designed to host them.
In short, just because a hypothetical format is "powered down" enough for bob and goyf doesn't mean it was done purely to allow them in.
They had a great format for Bob during INN/RTR standard. Black was weak and the format was full of 4 and 5 mana bombs you didn't want to flip.
To be fair flipping a Huntmaster of the Fells or a Thragtusk that you can cast would have certainly not been the worst thing in the world unless you would die from it of course.
Of course, but the format was fairly high cost. I don't think that the existence of cards that would have been good with Bob would be a reason to not reprint him. The question is if those cards are too good with him, in that particular format I think it would have been fine, it probably would have even created a nice contrast with Sphinx's Revelation for the first year it was in Standard.
I now wish, as a Naya Blitz player, I could've seen that in that Standard. COTP into BTE and Lightning Mauler vs a Bob flipping a Thragtusk?
Though Bob probably would've facilitated a Jund or B/R aggro deck as well (Zombies?)
of course modern would seem stale if you continue to netdeck the same thing every tournament you go to. there are plenty of decks and ideas that can win against the tier 1 decks. also, many people (even pros, who obviously are the end all be all of opinions on modern /sarcasm) have admitted, sideboard cards are very powerful in modern and can swing games, so what is to say that a rogue deck can't do well with a properly constructed sideboard? take shouta's tezzeret deck for example. way out of left field and its a good deck that can do well in a large tournament setting. innovative decks are arguably better imo since the opponent has no idea what you're playing game 1 or how to play against you optimally, whereas if you're playing jund or pod most people know exactly what you're doing after your first 2 land drops.
TLDR if you think modern is stale i think you are incredibly lazy and uncreative and you should take a chance and design something new and exciting.
on topic, i think they could unbar some things in modern, but NOT JTMS or BBE as was alluded to on a recent episode of magic TV on the CFB youtube channel. unban grave troll, there is so much hate that everyone has in their sideboard anyways, i don't think a graveyard strategy could be that oppressive given what people already commonly use.
PV had a very similar attitude when he talked about PT Born of the Gods:
This tournament was the epitome of all I hate, and have always hated, about Modern. It doesn’t matter how tuned your deck is or how much better you play, if you are playing Affinity and they draw turn two Stony Silence you are going to lose, and the same is true for a number of other decks.
Basically, the same kind of "I can't run a overtly powerful deck and mow down the field because I can afford to spend weeks testing" attitude that LSV and Efro gave off. An arrogance of "the format sucks because it doesn't allow our skill to be shown." And saddens me because I respect them, but the format sucks because it's balanced? That's how formats should be.
I wouldn't say they all failed. A few of the mechanics have worked out well.
Battalion is probably the most successful. It's not a deck type per se but it fit well into the Naya Blitz deck with Boros Elite and Firefist Striker. Also it plays a part in the White Weenie decks with Boros Elite and Daring Skyjek.
Unleashed has been a part of Red aggressive decks with Rakdos Cackler and Gore House Chainwalker. Again, it wasn't the defining part but it fit into a deck mold.
Bloodrush had an impact, Populate had an impact. It's not like they were non-existent in the format.
I'm worried about this myself. I mean, I live in Alaska. There's no way we'll have a regional qualifier to ourselves here. So I win a PTQQ and now I have to travel to Seattle or Portland (most likely), on my own dime? On a months notice? I mean, airfare isn't cheap flying from up here and a months notice makes that worse! All for just another qualifier? I can't even imagine the costs for people in Mexico/Central/South America or the APAC region!
This works, in theory, in the Lower 48 and Canada (to an extent) and Europe. But everywhere else this is just a mess!
This is my first thought as well, it won't be good for rural or international regions. I'm guessing they saw this coming (it's pretty obvious) and had a plan to makes sure it ends up not being too bad for those groups. Time will tell though
I have a little faith but, like I said, I'm worried. I mean, it's super expensive and somewhat unreasonable for them to cover travel costs for PTQQ winners on top of the travel costs for PT qualifiers. But it's also unreasonable to ask somebody from places like Alaska or Hawai'i to pay their own way to a tournament they had to qualify for.
I'm thinking of emailing Wizards about this tomorrow...
I'm worried about this myself. I mean, I live in Alaska. There's no way we'll have a regional qualifier to ourselves here. So I win a PTQQ and now I have to travel to Seattle or Portland (most likely), on my own dime? On a months notice? I mean, airfare isn't cheap flying from up here and a months notice makes that worse! All for just another qualifier? I can't even imagine the costs for people in Mexico/Central/South America or the APAC region!
This works, in theory, in the Lower 48 and Canada (to an extent) and Europe. But everywhere else this is just a mess!
I don't know what to think of the list. It's ok but I see it as leaving some of the more powerful humans out and you're very very weak to removal AND boardwipes with no lategame except Hero. Here's my list that I use at my Modern FNM's here:
So I'll explain my choices. COTP because obviously it's the human deck. Student of Warfare is the second best one drop human, he can get powerful very quick. Soldier of the Pantheon is third best because he is 2/1 for one and he has a somewhat relevant protection (there are a lot of multicolor removal spells used). Thalia is an absolute necessity, she slows down decks and, more importantly, acts as a lightning rod for removal. Knight of the White Orchid I use because it can fix mana and does something when it comes into play, as opposed to other 2 drops that are good but don't do things right away. Silverblade Paladin because being able to give two creatures double strike, especially a 4/4 or 5/5 COTP, is very powerful and can end games quick. Mirran Crusader because he has relevant protection and double strike, a very powerful combo. And Ranger of Eos because being able to reload your hand with a creature is very very good for this deck. Path because it's the best removal in white. Honor because it's really what makes the deck go and be capable of winning. Lightning Bolt because it's good removal and gives you reach. Lightning Helix is the same as Bolt but with a nice lifegain that can swing games. 20 land because you really don't need that many for this deck. My land choices of Slayers' Stronghold because it can turn late game one drops into instant threats and Ghost Quarter because of pesky manlands.
Here's what I have built right now:
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Experiment One
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Mayor of Avabruck
4 Lightning Mauler
4 Rip-Clan Crasher
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Atarka's Command
2 Boros Charm
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Arid Mesa
2 Temple Garden
2 Stomping Ground
2 Sacred Foundry
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Choke
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Deflecting Palm
2 Destructive Revelry
2 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
2 Nearheath Pilgrim
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
You go with the core of the deck: 4 Champion of the Parish, 4 Burning-Tree Emissary, 4 Lightning Mauler. Experiment One is a green backup to COTP. Kytheon, Hero of Akros can flip on turn 2 in this deck very easily and be a potent threat. Monastery Swiftspear is a red one drop that the deck needs, it's hard to trigger Prowess for it but it's a red one drop that has haste and can be played off BTE. Mayor of Avabruck and Thalia's Lieutenant are Lords that can power out the board for a kill. Rip-Clan Crasher is a 2 drop with haste that can be cast off of BTE and can be a decent top deck. 4 Lightning Bolts are a must in Modern, while Boros Charm can be either a finishing burn spell and a way to save your board from a boardwipe. Atarka's Command can be a burn spell, a potential boardwipe saver, or even take away lifegain.
Both modes may be of use for the deck...
So here's a rather radical idea: Ban Pestermite and Deceiver Exarch. It shifts Twin from being a very powerful U/R tempo deck with a combo kill to a straight up W/R combo deck using Village Bell Ringer or the Kiki-Resto combo. Yes it can splash U, but it would be considerably less consistent.
It's probably crazy but it's an idea...
I like the list as well. I'd swap the Stratus Walk and an Ajani's Presence for a couple of Valorous Stance though. I don't know about the 3 Treasure Cruises either. Maybe in a match up where you face a ton of removal and you think you can't stick an Ordeal? I don't know.
A couple of times. I actually had more problems with lands, flood and screw, than creatures.
4 Hero of Iroas
4 Battlewise Hoplite
2 Heliod's Pilgrim
2 Fabled Hero
1 Treasure Cruise
1 Stubborn Denial
4 Defiant Strike
4 Gods Willing
4 Aqueous Form
4 Ordeal of Thassa
2 Ordeal of Heliod
2 Valorous Stance
2 Feat of Resistance
4 Flooded Strand
4 Temple of Enlightenment
2 Tranquil Cove
8 Plains
2 Island
1 Lagonna-Band Trailblazer
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Mortal's Ardor
1 Fabled Hero
1 Treasure Cruise
2 Mortal Obstinacy
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Glare of Heresy
2 Stubborn Denial
2 Ajani's Presence
4th place at the last PTQ here in Alaska. Ended up 5-2-1 losing in the semis to G/R Devotion. Had a weird sideboard do to not being able to find a second Trailblazer.
Round 1: Sidisi Whip. Loss.
Lost in 3 games. Lost a very long game 1 not being able to draw enough cards or an Aqueous Form. Roll him over in game 2 with a quick turn 1 Hoplite with protection and Aqueous Form. Game 3 lost another close one when he drew too much removal and I didn't have enough protection. 0-1
Round 2: Abzan Aggro. Win.
Another 3 game set but with a win. Lost a quick game 1 when my opponent played 2 Fleecemane Lions and a Rhino to my Favored Hoplite. Rolled in Games 2 and 3 with Glare and Stance keeping his board clear. 1-1.
Round 3: U/B Control. Win.
2-0 win. Fairly quick games as I was able to stick a Battlewise Hoplite with Aqueous Form and Ordeal of Thassa for a lot of scry and draw. 2-1.
Round 4: Jeskai Tokens. Win.
I was feeling pretty by this point after a close round 1 loss. Sat down only to find my opponent was a local pro with 2 PT Top 8s. Lovely. He rolled me game 1 burning my creatures and killing me with Ascendancy powered tokens. Game 2 I stuck a Hero of Iroas with 2 Ordeal of Heliod's and an Aqueous Form. He didn't have enough gas to deal 40 and I won. Game 3 I got a Favored Hoplite out and protected it, he flooded out and I won 2-1.
Round 5: R/G Monsters. Win.
Lost a very quick game 1 on a bad keep at one land, didn't draw another and lost quickly. Game 2 I went Favored, Battlewise, Hero with an Ordeal of Heliod, Ordeal of Thassa, and Aqueous form. He got a Stormbreath out but he was already behind. Game 3 I rode a Battlewise Hoplite in a close game until I Disdainful Stroked a Stormbreath, drew an Ordeal of Heliod, and ran away. 4-1 now.
Round 6: Sidisi Whip. Draw.
Standings were a mess going into this round with 4 unbeatens, 5 on 4-1, and 4 on 3-1-1. We began playing but the other matches finished as we were finishing game 3 with me way ahead and we drew. 4-1-1.
Ended up 5th seed, my round 6 opponent was the odd man out at 9th. In hindsight I could've taken the win in Round 6 and been #1 seed but I didn't want to be the bad guy.
Quarterfinals: Soulflayer/Chromanticore. Win.
This one was a funny match up. First, I was playing guy I used to work with and hadn't seen in a few years. Second, it was match up of the "rogue" decks in the Top 8. Anyways, I lost Game 1 when hit tons of tokens off of Sidisi and I couldn't draw an Aqueous Form. Game 2 I hit a Favored Hoplite early, protected it, and rode it to a win. Game 3 started poorly when he removed a couple of my creatures and he hit Sidisi. I took a risk tapping out for a Fabled Hero, I had 3 other creatures in hand, but he let me untap. An Ordeal of Heliod helped me keep my life total up until I drew an Aqueous Form and swung for 14 and the win.
Semifinals: G/R Devotion. Loss.
Game 1 I stuck a couple of creatures and rode them. My opponent went off to cast an Ugin but my one of Stubborn Denial countered it. That led to what I thought was a pretty dick move. He asked me how copies I ran maindeck, I said one, he didn't believe me and made the judge, his friend, check my decklist. Anyways, games 2 and 3 I couldn't race him fast enough and he landed Ugin both games for the win.
Ended in 4th place. Was the only in the field on the deck. Fabled Hero was better than I thought. He's good against decks with removal, they remove 1 or 2, you drop him and he can close things out quick. Valorous Stance was really good as well, both modes came in handy.
You may be right on the counter spell but land destruction? Ghost Quarter and Tectonic Edge exist.
Somebody said it earlier but Goyf is easily dealt with. Path, Doom Blade, Dismember, Deathmark exists!
Here's a thought, ban pyroclasm and whipflare . They're the reason no aggro decks exist besides Affinity.
I now wish, as a Naya Blitz player, I could've seen that in that Standard. COTP into BTE and Lightning Mauler vs a Bob flipping a Thragtusk?
Though Bob probably would've facilitated a Jund or B/R aggro deck as well (Zombies?)
PV had a very similar attitude when he talked about PT Born of the Gods:
http://www.channelfireball.com/home/pvs-playhouse-pro-tour-born-of-the-gods/
Basically, the same kind of "I can't run a overtly powerful deck and mow down the field because I can afford to spend weeks testing" attitude that LSV and Efro gave off. An arrogance of "the format sucks because it doesn't allow our skill to be shown." And saddens me because I respect them, but the format sucks because it's balanced? That's how formats should be.
Battalion is probably the most successful. It's not a deck type per se but it fit well into the Naya Blitz deck with Boros Elite and Firefist Striker. Also it plays a part in the White Weenie decks with Boros Elite and Daring Skyjek.
Unleashed has been a part of Red aggressive decks with Rakdos Cackler and Gore House Chainwalker. Again, it wasn't the defining part but it fit into a deck mold.
Bloodrush had an impact, Populate had an impact. It's not like they were non-existent in the format.
I have a little faith but, like I said, I'm worried. I mean, it's super expensive and somewhat unreasonable for them to cover travel costs for PTQQ winners on top of the travel costs for PT qualifiers. But it's also unreasonable to ask somebody from places like Alaska or Hawai'i to pay their own way to a tournament they had to qualify for.
I'm thinking of emailing Wizards about this tomorrow...
This works, in theory, in the Lower 48 and Canada (to an extent) and Europe. But everywhere else this is just a mess!
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Student of Warfare
4 Soldier of the Pantheon
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Knight of the White Orchid
4 Silverblade Paladin
3 Mirran Crusader
2 Ranger of Eos
4 Path to Exile
4 Honor of the Pure
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Lightning Helix
Lands
4 Sacred Foundry
2 Clifftop Retreat
2 Slayers' Stronghold
2 Ghost Quarter
9 Plains
1 Mountain
So I'll explain my choices. COTP because obviously it's the human deck. Student of Warfare is the second best one drop human, he can get powerful very quick. Soldier of the Pantheon is third best because he is 2/1 for one and he has a somewhat relevant protection (there are a lot of multicolor removal spells used). Thalia is an absolute necessity, she slows down decks and, more importantly, acts as a lightning rod for removal. Knight of the White Orchid I use because it can fix mana and does something when it comes into play, as opposed to other 2 drops that are good but don't do things right away. Silverblade Paladin because being able to give two creatures double strike, especially a 4/4 or 5/5 COTP, is very powerful and can end games quick. Mirran Crusader because he has relevant protection and double strike, a very powerful combo. And Ranger of Eos because being able to reload your hand with a creature is very very good for this deck. Path because it's the best removal in white. Honor because it's really what makes the deck go and be capable of winning. Lightning Bolt because it's good removal and gives you reach. Lightning Helix is the same as Bolt but with a nice lifegain that can swing games. 20 land because you really don't need that many for this deck. My land choices of Slayers' Stronghold because it can turn late game one drops into instant threats and Ghost Quarter because of pesky manlands.