OT: Whether or not a set is good is irrelevant. Standard power level/complexity has been going down over the last few years, and at some point it needs to swing upwards again.
No, not "at its heart, a combo deck." Dredge is a combo deck, period. There is no room for equivocation here. Its how the deck operates, its how the deck wins. Calling it anything else is dishonest or naive at best.
You haven't played Dredge much have you?
It's always been an aggro/combo deck. The only reason that it is referred to more as a combo deck is because it's the more common way of winning. Take this from someone who's played Legacy Dredge in some form for well over 3 years.
Fetchlands aren't going to be banned. They are an omnipresent part of the format, and removing them would cause severe damage to not only every deck in the format, but to player confidence in WotC.
Now that we've gotten that out of the way, I'd like to start a drinking game for reading this thread (starting on page 1).
Take a drink if:
Someone wants Tarmogoyf banned
Someone wants fetchlands banned
Someone wants Jace, The Mind Sculptor unbanned
Someone wants Stoneforge Mystic unbanned
Bocephus starts arguing with the entire thread
Someone wants (insert random uncommon/common that's rarely used) banned
Someone mentions Treasure Cruise or Dig Through Time
Take 2 drinks if someone wants a Legacy staple reprinted in Modern.
Finish your drink if you can still read properly after page 50 (repeated at 100, 150, 200, and 250).
Isn't the fact that everyone knows which card it is, cards weren't shuffled, relevant?
Not really, since the definition of a card going into the hand is the card touching the other cards in your hand, regardless of if you're holding them or they're face down on the table. Sucks when it happens, since it takes away from good games, but it is the correct ruling.
@Shmanka, Glad to see that when things happen that you do not see you discredit them. also, someone has a different idea for the format and you crucify them. Good to know we have people like you in the community.
@Galerion, 1) I have agreed with you on almost every thought you have brought forth. 2) I have never said Goyf needs to be banned for any reason. 3) I went to the SCG site and counted up control decks. I have to go back and see what the difference is since kt got 340 decks and I got 352. But the only thing that makes then controversial is people dont want to believe control is viable in the format. Something that you, yourself have said people dont want to believe.
Dont bother responding, I am out. This little vocal minority is the problem with the format, not the solution. Keep believing you know whats best for your version of the format. I am sure Wotc will get around to all of you.
This is one of the most ironic posts I've seen in a long time. I'm sure we'll all miss you.
Now to steer the conversation away from The Bocephus Show:
So where are we at with problems in the format? SCG's last Modern IQ was fairly broad in terms of what was doing well (baring the argument over what constitutes "control" or not). That said the trend of lacking variety in the format despite a recent uptick is a little discerning. Since we're not really in a position of one or two decks being completely dominating (tedious to see again and again maybe, but not dominating), any ideas for unbans at this point?
Don't forget that your first pick never locks you completely in - you should always abandon your first pick if the color aren't open at all. I guess with sarkhan you hope that at least 2 of his colors are open, with the idea to splash the 3rd - and you can take fixing highly (with common evolving wilds and a land or two from the FRF pack the splash shouldn't be to hard)
I'd always move into RG with Sarkhan, spalsh Blue. This cements a bomb for you, and you don't need to go crazy heavy in Blue to run him.
This pack is actually awesome for you. Pick yourself into RGu, send the signal that black is very open. Depending on the next few picks this could help you run the table.
Oh be quiet with this JTMS is too powerful for Modern non-sense. Lili OTV sees more play than Jace in eternal formats, but she is apparently perfectly acceptable. The entire BGx abomination is apparently perfectly fine as a port from Legacy to Modern, but JTMS is too powerful? Counterspell is too powerful? Preordain is too powerful? We can't play with Top, because of time, but there are Legacy events all the time (GP and SCG) and they don't last hours upon hours past time, as the reason we can't have top. I could go on and on. Control is completely unplayable on a competitive level in Modern and they've designed the format with that in mind. All the tools for control are banned in Modern. It's beyond stupid. Meanwhile the same meta from 2012 is in full force because WoTC consistently uses the banlist to enforce status quo staleness of BGx vs Twin vs dumb combo.dec. Even standard is much more enjoyable and I don't rarely say that. Ugh.
Thoughtseize, IoK, Liliana, Tarmogoyf, Abrupt Decay, etc. are vastly more powerful than anything control related. You know what..I say ban Tseize, Lilli, Tarmogoyf, and Abrupt Decay. That way people will see how neutered the beloved mid-range archetype will be. At least then it'll be on the same crap-level as the Control archetype.
You seem to have missed the part where I was responding to someone who was claiming that Jace was banned because he's too expensive. Regardless of what you think of Jace, it's been explicitly stated by WotC that he's never being unbanned. Move on and calm down kid.
God this is frustrating. I don't want to come across the same way pod players did , like some dramatic "WOE IS ME, I QUIT", and I don't want to sound grumpy or entitled, but I am completely at a loss as to why they won't let control be playable. Some form of control is playable in literally every other constructed format, and honestly now it kind of really DOES just make me not want to play, or brew, or go to events, because I'll either have to game some boring linear deck, or play twin mirrors all day, or play with cards I don't even like.
There was literally NO reason Ancestral Vision and JTMS couldn't have been unbanned in this format. Even those cards might not be enough, but it would be a great start, but all the crybabies who can't afford Jace think the world owes them something and they should be able to afford every tier 1 deck. Some of us already have our jaces and just want to play an archetype we love in a format we were trying really hard to like, but wizards is trying to be as difficult as possible.
But don't worry, you can always play burn or infect if you want to be tier 1! what a joke...
Not sure if you're aware, but Jace is never being unbanned, and it's not because of price.
OT: And a resounding "meh" was heard across the format. Expected, but still "meh".
Or it's people calling WotC out on a mistake. Then again, you seem to think that BBE was banned for being too powerful, which based on the annoucement (and the subsequent format for the following year), is flat out untrue.
Just because they didnt say it doesnt make it so.
I find it slightly odd that you take what is obviously your opinion, and limited one at that, and act like it's fact. BBE wasn't the issue with Jund. If it was DRS shouldn't have become as prevalent as it did, but we all know that that didn't happen.
I could say the same about a good number of people on this thread, including you.
I'm not the one making blanket statements about a format based on a single local meta, as you have admitted to doing. Also, no ***** I wouldn't make a good developer. My knowledge of statistics/numbers is severely limited.
Those aside, would you care to make a counter point beyond "You're just wrong", or are you going to admit that your flimsy argument doesn't actually hold up under scrutiny?
That's funny because I would like the format to be BGx vs URx vs UWx vs GWx vs UBx and so on.
You know what Im getting at?
I really don't know what you're getting at. Are you trying to say it doesn't matter how many BGx decks there are so long as there's one? Do you want the format to be a ton of Midrange decks? My sig seems very appropriate in this situation.
The whole BBE debate comes down to the differences in wants for the format. Most that want BBE unbanned want a higher power level to Modern. BBE is broken, always has been since it was printed. It has 'cascade' printed on it, one of the more broken mechanics.
As for Mondays announcement, no changes.
Or it's people calling WotC out on a mistake. Then again, you seem to think that BBE was banned for being too powerful, which based on the annoucement (and the subsequent format for the following year), is flat out untrue.
I'm ignoring the issue of relevance and power of cascade at the moment to focus on the issue I addressed earlier. My point is just cause rhino exists does not mean that a 3/2 hasty body is bad. This is especially true for jund that can remove everything in it's path and force damage through. I just don't think the body is weak enough that it balances out the power of the spells is cascades into. I think BBE should be unbanned when it's the current equivalent of a vanilla 2/2 powerwise (or at least closer than it is). That would balance out the value you're getting from te cascade better and make it a much more fair card. As I said, it can come off eventually, it just needs to sit on the list a year or two longer and then it'll likely be alright. Ideally it would be unbanned at a low point for BGX (as a whole) too.
So you want it unbanned when creature creep makes it's body becomes completely irrelevent? BBE has never been played for it's body. It's stats are purposefully low for a 4 mana creature in Green to offset the card advantage from cascade. Then again you're not going to convince me that Seige Rhino being legal while BBE is banned isn't a double standard.
Considering BGx currently is dangerously close to "play Abzan or don't play BGx", I'd rather we get BBE off sooner.
Sorry, by spells I meant "things that BBE can cascade into, creatures and walkers included". I agree instants and sorceries are lowering in power, and think BBE CAN come off eventually, but I really don't think we've hit that safety mark since BBE does pretty much everything they regulate such as being a card advantage card that's highly abusable and that he can cheat costs as mentioned in some of the above posts.
By that logic it should come off sooner than later, since spells are, generally, losing power as time goes on.
Outside of building your deck with BBE at the top of the curve, it's not exactly an abusable mechanic. The effect is random, which doesn't always lead to good draws (cascading into a Thoughtseize which puts you at lethal/kills you, hitting a Bolt/Decay when your opponent has a Siege Rhino and nothing else, etc.) Whilest it can be a total blowout, it still isn't as consistent as you'd think, since there's only so much that you can do to remove the variance of BBE.
Honestly I think we've hit the safety mark with Siege Rhino's printing. Given the current curve, creatures have nowhere to go but up in power, and if Siege Rhino isn't equal to BBE (or passed in power entirely), then something within the next year will.
The bbe discussion is going nowhere, so let's look at it this way. What's happening faster, 1-3 cmc spells getting stronger or a 3/2 haste body becoming irrelevant? Personally I side on the 1-3 cmc spells since I still see a 3/2 haste body as really good for what Jund wants to do.
Except that this is, currently, the exact opposite of reality. With cards like Seige Rhino in the format and the continuing slow decay of spell power level (with few exceptions), I cannot see this as being accurate.
But then again we could see BBE arguments until the end of the format at this rate. I personally feel that it should be unbanned to at least give Zoo a push, if not also diversify the options for BGx decks.
Do you have a link to this?
OT: Whether or not a set is good is irrelevant. Standard power level/complexity has been going down over the last few years, and at some point it needs to swing upwards again.
You haven't played Dredge much have you?
It's always been an aggro/combo deck. The only reason that it is referred to more as a combo deck is because it's the more common way of winning. Take this from someone who's played Legacy Dredge in some form for well over 3 years.
Now that we've gotten that out of the way, I'd like to start a drinking game for reading this thread (starting on page 1).
Take a drink if:
Someone wants Tarmogoyf banned
Someone wants fetchlands banned
Someone wants Jace, The Mind Sculptor unbanned
Someone wants Stoneforge Mystic unbanned
Bocephus starts arguing with the entire thread
Someone wants (insert random uncommon/common that's rarely used) banned
Someone mentions Treasure Cruise or Dig Through Time
Take 2 drinks if someone wants a Legacy staple reprinted in Modern.
Finish your drink if you can still read properly after page 50 (repeated at 100, 150, 200, and 250).
Not really, since the definition of a card going into the hand is the card touching the other cards in your hand, regardless of if you're holding them or they're face down on the table. Sucks when it happens, since it takes away from good games, but it is the correct ruling.
This is one of the most ironic posts I've seen in a long time. I'm sure we'll all miss you.
Now to steer the conversation away from The Bocephus Show:
So where are we at with problems in the format? SCG's last Modern IQ was fairly broad in terms of what was doing well (baring the argument over what constitutes "control" or not). That said the trend of lacking variety in the format despite a recent uptick is a little discerning. Since we're not really in a position of one or two decks being completely dominating (tedious to see again and again maybe, but not dominating), any ideas for unbans at this point?
I'd always move into RG with Sarkhan, spalsh Blue. This cements a bomb for you, and you don't need to go crazy heavy in Blue to run him.
You seem to have missed the part where I was responding to someone who was claiming that Jace was banned because he's too expensive. Regardless of what you think of Jace, it's been explicitly stated by WotC that he's never being unbanned. Move on and calm down kid.
Not sure if you're aware, but Jace is never being unbanned, and it's not because of price.
OT: And a resounding "meh" was heard across the format. Expected, but still "meh".
I find it slightly odd that you take what is obviously your opinion, and limited one at that, and act like it's fact. BBE wasn't the issue with Jund. If it was DRS shouldn't have become as prevalent as it did, but we all know that that didn't happen.
I'm not the one making blanket statements about a format based on a single local meta, as you have admitted to doing. Also, no ***** I wouldn't make a good developer. My knowledge of statistics/numbers is severely limited.
Those aside, would you care to make a counter point beyond "You're just wrong", or are you going to admit that your flimsy argument doesn't actually hold up under scrutiny?
I really don't know what you're getting at. Are you trying to say it doesn't matter how many BGx decks there are so long as there's one? Do you want the format to be a ton of Midrange decks? My sig seems very appropriate in this situation.
Or it's people calling WotC out on a mistake. Then again, you seem to think that BBE was banned for being too powerful, which based on the annoucement (and the subsequent format for the following year), is flat out untrue.
Again, I'm glad that you are not a developer.
So you want it unbanned when creature creep makes it's body becomes completely irrelevent? BBE has never been played for it's body. It's stats are purposefully low for a 4 mana creature in Green to offset the card advantage from cascade. Then again you're not going to convince me that Seige Rhino being legal while BBE is banned isn't a double standard.
Considering BGx currently is dangerously close to "play Abzan or don't play BGx", I'd rather we get BBE off sooner.
By that logic it should come off sooner than later, since spells are, generally, losing power as time goes on.
Outside of building your deck with BBE at the top of the curve, it's not exactly an abusable mechanic. The effect is random, which doesn't always lead to good draws (cascading into a Thoughtseize which puts you at lethal/kills you, hitting a Bolt/Decay when your opponent has a Siege Rhino and nothing else, etc.) Whilest it can be a total blowout, it still isn't as consistent as you'd think, since there's only so much that you can do to remove the variance of BBE.
Honestly I think we've hit the safety mark with Siege Rhino's printing. Given the current curve, creatures have nowhere to go but up in power, and if Siege Rhino isn't equal to BBE (or passed in power entirely), then something within the next year will.
Except that this is, currently, the exact opposite of reality. With cards like Seige Rhino in the format and the continuing slow decay of spell power level (with few exceptions), I cannot see this as being accurate.
But then again we could see BBE arguments until the end of the format at this rate. I personally feel that it should be unbanned to at least give Zoo a push, if not also diversify the options for BGx decks.