Right, I acknowledged Hornet Nest is good versus Monsters, however Nest is way worse than removal in many cases, especially if they have hit you a few times. Having an early Nest is pretty good vs Monsters.
However, I'm not sold on Nest in the sideboard while green devotion is still a deck. Seeing how Monsters won the most recent event, green devotion is primed for a resurgence given that they are pretty good vs Monsters.
I'm not convinced Hornet Nest is better than End Hostilities vs Green Devotion. Unless you blow up their board, they will get to either Nylea or Hornet Queen.
For Monsters, Hornet Nest is ok, but Temur Charm is a thing and they generally come out of the gates pretty fast. IMO, removal is far better to bring in versus Monsters because if you draw Hornet Nest any time after you've gotten hit once or twice, it is way worse than drawing a removal card like Murderous Cut.
Another thing for control is Stain the Mind. Control lists tend to run Pearl Lake Ancient as their finisher and if you find a window for Stain, you just win the game.
I still run Unravel the Aether over Erase because of the corner application of also hitting Perilous Vault.
I might find room for a Anafenza if testing shows the whip deck being really strong versus my list, but Ari's testing concluded the whip decks weren't good enough to devote a sideboard card just for that matchup.
This type of deck didn't really get a lot of love at the Pro Tour, and I think that the issue is that it wants to be a more midrange-y deck that starts at CMC=2 and not that wants to be aggressive, because an aggressive deck with a diverse 3 color manabase seems reeeeeeeally suboptimal. The new list might look something like this?:
I think it's a mistake to not have Crackling Dooms mainboard. What happens if you don't have Purphoros or Dictate of Heliod in play? Suddenly your deck is a terrible 1/1 tokens deck with a few big threats. I would even go far as to say Mardu Charm is not as good as Crackling Doom and to run less Charms and more Dooms.
I think not running Sorin is a mistake, as Butcher is your only source of lifegain and is less reliable than Sorin imo. Your deck is also weaker to End Hostilities out of the board without Sorin.
Loxodon Smiter also seemed like on the cusp of playability but the format wasn't good for him.
I went into States knowing Abzan mirrors were going to be a thing. High Sentinels destroyed the mirror match every time he came down and they couldn't answer him before I got to use his ability. A 4 mana flier that will break a stall on both the ground and the air given enough mana is worth it.
What would you recommend instead of Nissa in the board. I don't have another Ajani, but I am looking to get another and another Sorin as well.
Liliana Vess is also great in a board stall. Being able to find your fliers from your deck is very strong. She's not the U/B Control hoser that Nissa is, but she is great in the mirror in place of Nissa.
[quote from="Excal »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/competitive/established-standard/572033-primer-abzan-wbg-siege-rhino-midrange?comment=981"]
Excal, you did very well at a state tournament, what do you think about Nissa in the Mirror?
I ran Nissa mainboard in my list because I want to hit all my land drops and ran 25 land. This justified the four Coursers even more and made Nissa mainboard a solid choice.
As for the mirror, I often sided her out for the same reason Fleecemane Lion isn't very good in the mirror. Ground stalls happen all the time and to break through you need to win in the air or ultimate Elspeth before they find removal. Ajani, Mentor of Heroes is excellent in a ground stall and so are Rocs and High Sentinels.
Also keep in mind that States results are not always what they seem to be. In my case, we actually played for first and second, but at many events, both SCG and TCG, the top 4 will split and whoever is actually going to use the Invitational invite gets first.
I'm appalled by the number of people who still swear by Fleecemane and justify it as "I'm not as good as Ari Lax, so even though in his Pro Tour tournament report he gives a number of reasons why the card is bad, I'm still going to run this terrible card because I'm just not a good player." Well it should be obvious why you're not a good player at this point - you don't listen to advice from the guy who just won the Pro Tour and continue to play bad cards. This is all assuming you are playing the more midrange Abzan list and not the aggro one that definitely wants the lion.
I'm done with this thread and the Fleecemane fanboys who proclaim FNM hero status as to why he's good. I do commend whoever decides to try out High Sentinels because I think it is an underrated card, but it may not be good enough for its cost as we move forward. However, High Sentinels will win the mirror match for you since that battle is all about winning the air war due to the ground stall that always happens.
(Yes Ari Lax went without lions and yes he won a PT. You're not as good as Ari Lax, run the damn cat.)
This is terrible advice. Fleecemane Lion isn't good in this format - he gets outclassed hard. There are very few games where I was losing and a monstrous Fleecemane lion was doing much for me. Ari Lax cut it, I got second at states without it (my list is here: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=74499), and so should everyone else who isn't running a more aggro list.
Can you give some reasons for running High Sentinels vs 4 Rocs?
I was wondering the same thing. I have been thinking about those guys for a while now. I think their real magic happens when they combine with Abzan Charm, Ajani, Mentor of Heros and Anafenza, the Foremost. Just being able to add incidental tokens can make the High Sentinels. I haven't tested them, but it seems like if you have a lot of incidental gain of tokens they can be surprisingly large, quickly. Ari Lax did win the pro tour off of +1/+1 counters from Abzan Charm. That could possibly make one card add 4 damage to your creatures.
I run a lower creature count in the same vein as Ari Lax's list (I agree with Ari that Fleecemane sucks). This means the creatures I run need to be very strong or serve a great purpose. High Sentinels is great because it gets bigger than Rocs if not dealt with, is a mana sink that will not only win the air war but also break a ground stall due to putting +1/+1 counters on all your guys, and overall is another flier in a format where flying is relevant once again (no Desecration Demons or Nightveil Specters running prevalent in this format).
They aren't. They saw one Abzan list that was featured in a deck tech (it was a more aggro version) and seem to have forgotten about Ari Lax, currently 8-1-0, who is running a slower midrange list closer to what most of us have been posting.
This whole thread is just a jumbled mix of wrong assumptions (oh the aggro abzan got a deck tech? the slower version must be way worse!) and FNM hero reports where users are suggesting sideboard cards that are really bad in the deck but supposedly destroy something relevant.
Double post! Been watching the pro tour coverage this evening and I was wondering... What about Nissa, Worldwaker ? Perhaps we should be running a 6 planeswalker package, 2 elspeth, 2 sorin and 2 nissa. She puts a relevant 4/4 out there. I imagine we'd have to play more basics though. Just a thought, curious as to what other folks think.
It's funny how my pro tour friends recommended Nissa mainboard and a 6 walker package, and yet my post 2 pages previously seems to be entirely ignored in this entire thread. People think their 4-0 at FNM trumps lists tuned for the highest levels of play.
Anyway, here's an updated list of what one of my friends on the Pro Tour is running:
He said he'd cut Elspeth if he would make any changes, and after tonight's FNM, I kinda agree. Elspeth isn't so good in this format. Sorin, however, is amazing.
However, I'm not sold on Nest in the sideboard while green devotion is still a deck. Seeing how Monsters won the most recent event, green devotion is primed for a resurgence given that they are pretty good vs Monsters.
For Monsters, Hornet Nest is ok, but Temur Charm is a thing and they generally come out of the gates pretty fast. IMO, removal is far better to bring in versus Monsters because if you draw Hornet Nest any time after you've gotten hit once or twice, it is way worse than drawing a removal card like Murderous Cut.
Another thing for control is Stain the Mind. Control lists tend to run Pearl Lake Ancient as their finisher and if you find a window for Stain, you just win the game.
I still run Unravel the Aether over Erase because of the corner application of also hitting Perilous Vault.
I might find room for a Anafenza if testing shows the whip deck being really strong versus my list, but Ari's testing concluded the whip decks weren't good enough to devote a sideboard card just for that matchup.
My list: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/08-10-14-MnN-abzan-midrange/
I think it's a mistake to not have Crackling Dooms mainboard. What happens if you don't have Purphoros or Dictate of Heliod in play? Suddenly your deck is a terrible 1/1 tokens deck with a few big threats. I would even go far as to say Mardu Charm is not as good as Crackling Doom and to run less Charms and more Dooms.
I think not running Sorin is a mistake, as Butcher is your only source of lifegain and is less reliable than Sorin imo. Your deck is also weaker to End Hostilities out of the board without Sorin.
I went into States knowing Abzan mirrors were going to be a thing. High Sentinels destroyed the mirror match every time he came down and they couldn't answer him before I got to use his ability. A 4 mana flier that will break a stall on both the ground and the air given enough mana is worth it.
Liliana Vess is also great in a board stall. Being able to find your fliers from your deck is very strong. She's not the U/B Control hoser that Nissa is, but she is great in the mirror in place of Nissa.
I ran Nissa mainboard in my list because I want to hit all my land drops and ran 25 land. This justified the four Coursers even more and made Nissa mainboard a solid choice.
As for the mirror, I often sided her out for the same reason Fleecemane Lion isn't very good in the mirror. Ground stalls happen all the time and to break through you need to win in the air or ultimate Elspeth before they find removal. Ajani, Mentor of Heroes is excellent in a ground stall and so are Rocs and High Sentinels.
Also keep in mind that States results are not always what they seem to be. In my case, we actually played for first and second, but at many events, both SCG and TCG, the top 4 will split and whoever is actually going to use the Invitational invite gets first.
I'm done with this thread and the Fleecemane fanboys who proclaim FNM hero status as to why he's good. I do commend whoever decides to try out High Sentinels because I think it is an underrated card, but it may not be good enough for its cost as we move forward. However, High Sentinels will win the mirror match for you since that battle is all about winning the air war due to the ground stall that always happens.
This is terrible advice. Fleecemane Lion isn't good in this format - he gets outclassed hard. There are very few games where I was losing and a monstrous Fleecemane lion was doing much for me. Ari Lax cut it, I got second at states without it (my list is here: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=74499), and so should everyone else who isn't running a more aggro list.
I run a lower creature count in the same vein as Ari Lax's list (I agree with Ari that Fleecemane sucks). This means the creatures I run need to be very strong or serve a great purpose. High Sentinels is great because it gets bigger than Rocs if not dealt with, is a mana sink that will not only win the air war but also break a ground stall due to putting +1/+1 counters on all your guys, and overall is another flier in a format where flying is relevant once again (no Desecration Demons or Nightveil Specters running prevalent in this format).
This whole thread is just a jumbled mix of wrong assumptions (oh the aggro abzan got a deck tech? the slower version must be way worse!) and FNM hero reports where users are suggesting sideboard cards that are really bad in the deck but supposedly destroy something relevant.
It's funny how my pro tour friends recommended Nissa mainboard and a 6 walker package, and yet my post 2 pages previously seems to be entirely ignored in this entire thread. People think their 4-0 at FNM trumps lists tuned for the highest levels of play.
Anyway, here's an updated list of what one of my friends on the Pro Tour is running:
3x Caves of Koilos
3x Forest
4x Llanowar Wastes
2x Plains
4x Sandsteppe Citadel
4x Temple of Malady
1x Temple of Silence
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3x Windswept Heath
Creature (19)
4x Courser of Kruphix
3x Fleecemane Lion
2x High Sentinels of Arashin
4x Siege Rhino
4x Sylvan Caryatid
2x Wingmate Roc
4x Abzan Charm
2x Bile Blight
4x Hero's Downfall
Planeswalker (6)
2x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
2x Nissa, Worldwaker
2x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
2x Arbor Colossus
2x Bile Blight
4x Drown in Sorrow
1x Duneblast
2x End Hostilities
2x Thoughtseize
2x Utter End
He said he'd cut Elspeth if he would make any changes, and after tonight's FNM, I kinda agree. Elspeth isn't so good in this format. Sorin, however, is amazing.