The idea is to be unfair with Liliana of the Veil in general and be broken with Jace Beleren later on. Draw, play, discard anyone? Those two each other. No jace? No problem, you compensate Liliana's drawback by not being :pumpkin:; Think Twice also helps!
My comment was in regard to you so ignorantly saying that drawing a DD on any other turn except 1 or 2 is bad.
I'm saying you're wrong.
Taking my comment out of context of what it was referring to isn't going to make a for a very good discussion.
No blah you're ignorant and nothing you say is relevant. <-- see how helpful this is and how you put it in every post on this thread. This doesn't make good discussion.
Taking my comment of out my context in saying that comparing cards on the ban list is impossible is obtrusive. Please be less hypocritical.
Calling people ignorant is flaming. Warning for Flaming t_c
DD is a combo melded into a control deck. If you're a control deck and can't stop combo on the critical turn it goes off, you're not a very good control deck.
You are thinking WAY to much goldfish and not enough actual play testing/empirical evidence.
Then I guess it should be simple unbanning DD then since any good control deck should be able to stop it right?
Dark Depths turn three is great. Dark Depths turn four is great. Dark Depths turn five is great. Dark Depths turn six is great. Dark Depths turn seven is great.
Are you seriously missing this? You're trying to compare Ancestral Vision to Dark Depths. Ancestral Vision always takes four turns to do anything. Dark Depths can be active immediately. Your whole argument is that Dark Depths is somehow significantly worse later on when that's not true because Vampire Hexmage+Dark Depths is relevant on any turn.
Wholly irrelevant to the subject at hand.
Do you read what you wrote? You just admitted that Dark Depths and Ancestral Vision aren't comparable. Which is what I was arguing. So you just said that you were wrong.
I was citing your quote saying Chrome Mox helps you win on the first 3 turns.
I literally chose the four most polarizing card types on the ban list to compare and you are still wondering what my point is?
Enchantment. Land. Artifact. Sorcery.
There is no comparison. I am criticizing rLr strongly for his suggestion at this.
And you are wrong. DD's strategy revolves around DD. If you do not drop DD early, you lose. You drop DD turn 3 means you win turn four, which means your deck is weaker than other combo decks in the format. You MUST drop DD turn 1-2 to maintain average goldfish rate with other decks in the format.
Chrome Mox is a card that can help you win the game on turn 3 if you play it on the first turn. Ancestral Vision is a card that does nothing until turn 5 if you play it on the first turn. These aren't even comparable.
What the... this is horribly wrong. Ignoring the fact you seem to think that a land that produces no mana is somehow "very good" on turn 1 (I know you're going "exact words" but that just shows how jarringly wrong you are in this comparison), but if you have a Vampire Hexmage, then drawing a Dark Depths is equally relevant any turn of the game after the first and can have an immediate effect by giving you a giant creature that can win the game for you next turn. Ancestral Vision doesn't win you the game next turn, it makes you wait 4 turns for card advantage.
Best case scenario for Ancestral Vision is you draw three cards on the fifth turn. Best case scenario for Dark Depths is you have an Urborg and a Vampire Hexmage and end up with a 20/20 flying indestructible creature on the second turn. These cards aren't comparable at all. Your analogies fail horribly.
?????
Ancestral Visions helps you win the game after you've stalled out with the rest of your cards in the game for the first three turns.
DD turn one is great. Turn two Urborg hexmage Nessy. DD turn two is great. T1 Urborg Turn two Nessy.
Guess what else is being played in decks that play AV? Path to Exile. Guess what Nessy dies to? Path to Exile.
These cards aren't comparable. Your analysis fails horribly.
Why do you not criticize others for comparing BB to AV? Because bias.
That's just ridiculous.
AV is very good turn 1, decent turn 2, mediocre turn 3, awful turn 4; drawing AV when you need answers is very bad and you need 4 copies to have a chance to play it turn 1 or 2.
It's not "draw 3 for free" take at least a couple of minutes to think about it, instead of repeating what you heard.
It's a very similar situation with Bitterblossom. Turn 2 it's very good, but playing it at turn 4+ it's bad and will probably cost you the game a that point, you are almost spending your turn in an enchantment that doesnt impact the field when ETB... also drawing multiples... well you get the idea.
Chrome mox is very good turn one, decent turn two, mediocre turn three, awful turn four; drawing chrome mox when you need answers is very bad and you need four copies to have a chance to play it turn one or two.
It's not "tap rainbow for free" take a couple of minutes to think about it, instead or repeating what you heard.
It's a very similar situation with Bitterblossom. Turn 2 it's very good, but playing it at turn 4+ it's bad and will probably cost you the game a that point, you are almost spending your turn in an enchantment that benefits you throughout the game, also drawing multiples... well you get the idea.
If that wasn't clear cut enough for you let me match up everything you said word for word.
Dark Depths is very good turn 1, decent turn 2, mediocre turn 3, awful turn 4; drawing DD when you need answers is very bad and you need 4 copies to have a chance to play it turn 1 or 2.
It's not "Summon Nessy for free" take at least a couple of minutes to think about it, instead of repeating what you heard.
It's a very similar situation with Bitterblossom. Turn 2 it's very good, but playing it at turn 4+ it's bad and will probably cost you the game a that point, you are almost spending your turn in an enchantment that doesnt impact the field when ETB... also drawing multiples... well you get the idea.
Do not call my thoughts ridiculous again or you will receive the same treatment in kind. Unlike other people in this thread I will absolutely not tolerate it.
Except their reasoning makes no sense in a turn 4 format. Great, I draw my 3 cards on turn 5. Problem is, I'm dead by then.
AV has no business being on the banned list. But we've beat this horse to death so what's the point of even discussing it?
AV, nor any other card on the banned list currently is coming off. I've resigned myself to that. The only thing that's going to happen is the banned list will get bigger and bigger.
Pod is probably the next to go unless something else beats it to the sin bin.
Because many people disagree with you. AV only helps existing decks become better. AV will not spawn more format diversity, merely limit it.
why should i play a combo deck when i could play an aggro deck that wins equally fast? (assuming we go in a unknown meta)
It is generally easier to interact with aggressive decks. Boardwipes, pyroclasm especially, are things in modern. Kill spells and stabilizing decks win frequently vs. highly aggressive decks.
That being said
Combo>Midrange>Aggro>Control>Combo
Just as an example right now there are ~200 people viewing the modern forum here. When it came out we were over 400 most of the time and at times even surpassed that. Today we don't have that many in the modern forums almost ever. Of those people left and most who left probably didn't like the format. That's more or less the definition of sampling bias. It would be like conducting a presidential poll using only home phone land lines which as gallup showed doesn't work. To get a true sampling you need a truly representative group of magic players. These forums are not that.
You don't get it. I know it's their game and if I don't like it I don't have to play it.
What do you think will happen if enough people feel as I and others do, that they're tired of putting together top tier decks and having them get banned? What do you think will happen to Modern? Do you think if enough people get fed up that it'll still survive?
Before you answer that, look at all the failed formats before this one.
I'm not saying it WILL happen. For whatever reason that I can't for the life of me fathom, maybe most players DO like Modern just the way it is, don't care what gets banned and just roll with the punches because they get to play something other than Standard that sucks your wallet dry every year or Legacy that is just too prohibitive for most.
But are you really so damn sure that this format is so universally beloved that it is in absolutely NO danger of going the way of Extended?
Like I said, I wouldn't bet the change in my pocket when almost all my friends who played Modern are now playing Legacy because they're fed up.
Anecdotal maybe. But what does that tell you?
Bet my life on this format the way it's being handled now?
Not in a million years.
That more people will start playing the format because they feel that they're not being repressed?
Modern has been growing extremely quickly, and most people, with factual evidence, have loved the recent bannings wizards have done.
Where is your evidence that the sample was biased. There is evidence in front of you saying otherwise. Otherwise, people can just discount everything anyone in this thread is saying by marking it as hilarious bias.
Have you guys TRIED Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver? Holy hell, that
The idea is to be unfair with Liliana of the Veil in general and be broken with Jace Beleren later on. Draw, play, discard anyone? Those two
2 uses of inappropriate language. Warning issued.
You see Day [9] and HuskyStarcraft all enjoying and promoting Magic in their stream and channels respectively and then you see things like this.
>magicchristmasland batterskull is banned and stoneforge mystic is unbanned
>page 125 people arguing about unbanning batterskull by banning stoneforge mystic
"Oh, what is this another Goryo's Vegeance Deck? So your only targets are Griselbrand and Emrakul?"
"Oh what is this another Gifts deck? So your only targets are Iona and Elesh Norn?"
"Oh what is this another Scapeshift Deck? So your only targets are Primeval Titan and Scapeshift?"
"Oh what is this another Ad Nauseum Deck? So you only targets are Ad Nauseum and Mystical Teachings?"
Why are you still here.
No blah you're ignorant and nothing you say is relevant. <-- see how helpful this is and how you put it in every post on this thread. This doesn't make good discussion.
Taking my comment of out my context in saying that comparing cards on the ban list is impossible is obtrusive. Please be less hypocritical.
Calling people ignorant is flaming. Warning for Flaming t_c
Then I guess it should be simple unbanning DD then since any good control deck should be able to stop it right?
I was citing your quote saying Chrome Mox helps you win on the first 3 turns.
I literally chose the four most polarizing card types on the ban list to compare and you are still wondering what my point is?
Enchantment. Land. Artifact. Sorcery.
There is no comparison. I am criticizing rLr strongly for his suggestion at this.
And you are wrong. DD's strategy revolves around DD. If you do not drop DD early, you lose. You drop DD turn 3 means you win turn four, which means your deck is weaker than other combo decks in the format. You MUST drop DD turn 1-2 to maintain average goldfish rate with other decks in the format.
?????
Ancestral Visions helps you win the game after you've stalled out with the rest of your cards in the game for the first three turns.
DD turn one is great. Turn two Urborg hexmage Nessy. DD turn two is great. T1 Urborg Turn two Nessy.
Guess what else is being played in decks that play AV? Path to Exile. Guess what Nessy dies to? Path to Exile.
These cards aren't comparable. Your analysis fails horribly.
Why do you not criticize others for comparing BB to AV? Because bias.
Chrome mox is very good turn one, decent turn two, mediocre turn three, awful turn four; drawing chrome mox when you need answers is very bad and you need four copies to have a chance to play it turn one or two.
It's not "tap rainbow for free" take a couple of minutes to think about it, instead or repeating what you heard.
It's a very similar situation with Bitterblossom. Turn 2 it's very good, but playing it at turn 4+ it's bad and will probably cost you the game a that point, you are almost spending your turn in an enchantment that benefits you throughout the game, also drawing multiples... well you get the idea.
If that wasn't clear cut enough for you let me match up everything you said word for word.
Dark Depths is very good turn 1, decent turn 2, mediocre turn 3, awful turn 4; drawing DD when you need answers is very bad and you need 4 copies to have a chance to play it turn 1 or 2.
It's not "Summon Nessy for free" take at least a couple of minutes to think about it, instead of repeating what you heard.
It's a very similar situation with Bitterblossom. Turn 2 it's very good, but playing it at turn 4+ it's bad and will probably cost you the game a that point, you are almost spending your turn in an enchantment that doesnt impact the field when ETB... also drawing multiples... well you get the idea.
Do not call my thoughts ridiculous again or you will receive the same treatment in kind. Unlike other people in this thread I will absolutely not tolerate it.
Because many people disagree with you. AV only helps existing decks become better. AV will not spawn more format diversity, merely limit it.
It is generally easier to interact with aggressive decks. Boardwipes, pyroclasm especially, are things in modern. Kill spells and stabilizing decks win frequently vs. highly aggressive decks.
That being said
Combo>Midrange>Aggro>Control>Combo
Huh- that does change my opinion a bit. Thanks.
That more people will start playing the format because they feel that they're not being repressed?
Modern has been growing extremely quickly, and most people, with factual evidence, have loved the recent bannings wizards have done.
Where is your evidence that the sample was biased. There is evidence in front of you saying otherwise. Otherwise, people can just discount everything anyone in this thread is saying by marking it as hilarious bias.