You do know that your old versions wouldnt lose value nearly as much as you think they would? A new printing of Volcanic Island wont suddenly help people wanting to make a Beta set. Hell it probably wouldnt even look half as good as the old border with the dual color text box, leaving the older versions more desirable.
Yes, and at the same time, no. Two examples to show both our points would be Imperial Seal and Tarmogoyf.
Seal is just another Vampiric Tutor, Nothing special there, but the reason Seal is so costly is almost solely due to it's collectors value; its rare, rarer in english. At a players point of view, there is no honest reason the card is 100s of percents higher in cost, to collectors, its perfectly sensible.
But then look at Tarmogoyf. Its on no restricted list. Its relatively new. Other than its pre-mythic-quota low print run it shouldnt have been hard to get one. But what happened? Players wanted it. Collectors want it (if they collect for cost of card) because it's valuable, and the only reason its worth more than the $5 when it was released is because every eternal format player wants 4 four of them.
Final point is, while a card will retain some of its value do to when it came out, other rarity factors, etc, value isnt based solely on when it came out or the conditions of its existence (blue Hurricane from edgar). NOR is it based solely on the simple aspect of supply and demand vs its usefulness (the price fluctuations of Karn Liberated) It relies on both. So i bought a NM Unlimited Black Lotus for $1000. Cool. But if they reprint them, do you really think they would STAY at 1K? No, because some of the reason the value is so high is because PLAYERS want them, not just collectors. Not saying that it'll drop to $10, but even a drop to $800 means i lost $200 of an investment that would have otherwise increased had the card not have been reprinted.
as both a player AND a collector i'm always at odds with myself over the restricted list. i quit playing standard a few years ago and have been focused on the eternal formats. (saves money in the long run. keeps the missus happy) i would LOVE to be able to open a pack and nab that long sought after 4th Volcanic Island but as a collector, i would be mad as all get out if they suddenly reprinted them, even in a limited way. i've been collecting one ofs for every card worth over $300 in the rarest form of the card, barring mistakes (like Edgar) all truth told if i can complete my list and keep the cards safe, by the time my daughter is old enough she can pay her way through college. the list was made to protect the investments people have made in their cards, and though the prices have skyrocketed for certain ones because of barring reprint, hindsight is 20/20. with Modern Masters coming out to compensate for the goyf and bob hunters out there, WoTC have finally started to figure out how to keep value of card high for collectors, yet still allow new players a chance to obtain them without breaking the bank. finally. as in now. they didnt have this wealth of knowledge they do now. if they did, i guarantee they would have said, "dont worry, we have a system to keep value up and and availability up as well." I hate that i have to carry my vintage deck in a locked pelican case because it's SO DAMN EXPENSIVE in there, but at the same time, i'm glad that when my day to quit comes, i'll be a wealthier man from all the fun i've had all these years.
Just to pop in...
I feel that the terms "casual" and "competative" are very liberal terms that will vary from playgroup to playgroup and person to person. You could spend all month tweaking your deck to make it "fair" but because your running blue and have pulled too many "Evacuate" effects, someone will call it too competative. In a 1 vs 1, you could technicaly say that since you ronly goal is to beat your opponent, that leaves room for a more "competative" deck. But even THAT could be considered foul play, assuming your opponent wanted a nice, long, old guys playing chess kind of game. I think the only concrete way to determine competative decks from casual ones are by how degenerate the deck is. EDH was made to have a large deck with 100 different cards to impose a sort of randomeness to the game. So purposely trying to force a specific outcome by gearing the entire deck towards the win condition would, in my mind, make the deck "competative." For example, I've been trying to build a Niv-Mizzet the Firemind deck. (still need help with it) and I've been fumbling with how to make it a deck that can win, while still being political enough not to get me booted, with a sideboard I can swap in/toolbox for for those games that are deemed "competative." I have a few tutors, some spell stealing cards like Bribery and even a nice counter suite with mana drain andforce of will. some could say that that is being too competative, but if you haven't noticed, I didn't mention Curiosity or Ophidian Eye and the like. Those kind of cards to me make the deck not so much a challenging/political deck, and more of an "oops I win" button. Degenerate cards are what really determine a competative deck. Anything else is just a matter of who you are playing with.
For a sweeping total of 94 cards. However, now the elephant in the room is that i need six more, plus since I'm running wishes, I need a sideboard that can reflect that, WHILE still maintaining the previous rule of keeping the deck friendly/fair, but having a sideboard option to swap in/wish at to turn it into a competative deck. Some of the cards i left out are:
For some reason I equated clean with simple so I didn't go overboard with the graphics work and did some simple passes and tool work.
Great job! That's very close to what I wanted, too; a little more integrated, as if they were all in the same picture. But as you can see, I am a VERY happy camper! Thank you so much!
Niv decks typically use Eldrazi to shuffle their graveyard. I have Ulamog in my mine, but I very rarely, if ever, hard cast Ulamog. He is usually tossed to the graveyard over a Windfall, Wheel, or other effects to shuffle up to prevent graveyard hate. I don't play out of my graveyard, but having access to everything again is huge with Niv.
As for OP, your deck might trying to do too much for Niv. He should be all about synergy, with or without the typical abusive combos. Gilded Drake is nice, but there isn't any synergy in theft with Niv. It relies too much on what your opponent has in play and you'll probably shuffle or discard those pieces away before using them.
- Nevy's Disk. Oblivion Stone is already very solid removal, especially with Academy Ruins.
- Clone/Sakashima. Clones don't give you synergy and depend on what opponents have in play too much.
- Gilded Drake
- Crystal Shard. You'll really only ever bounce your own stuff, but Riptide Laboratory is far more efficient at protecting Niv and all you might need. You'll also still be able to bounce your other wizards.
- Confiscate/Control Magic
- Forbid. You could probably throw Spell Crumple in here instead, I find Forbid too situational, especially early game.
- Time Reversal. Redundant since you have Time Spiral, and you refill opp's hands without untapping like Spiral.
- Ponder. Although Brainstorm is still solid, as it helps with Miracle, like Reforge the Soul and Devastation Tide.
- Starstorm. Try out Blasphemous Act and Devastation Tide for board wipes. All is Dust is especially great, due to having a light amount of permanents.
- Riptide Shapeshifter. It just feels out of place in Niv and very slow/expensive.
- Wild Ricochet or Twincast. Maybe Increasing Vengeance here instead? Radiate could also be fun, but both are pretty mana intensive.
Cards I'd recommend are Thought Reflection, Future Sight, and 0 drop rocks like Lotus Petal and Mox Opal. I disagree about Signets being slow, due to the amount of non-basics you're running. They're for mana fixing, like your Bluffs. Turn one Sol Ring into a Signet is fun.
You have a solid list and beautiful mana base.
Thanks to everyone for the input so far, both above and below this post. I'm just using it as it is the most thorough. I have personally never played an EDH deck of my own. At the time of the original post I had NEVER played, and have since played with a few of my friends decks. I agree that I may be trying to do too much, but my falling out comes from two fronts: first, I agree 100% with you about utilizing Niv's synergy with card draw. However, Niv won't always be out. After playing a few games, I noticed that much of the time with decks running 5+ CMC commanders, a good portion of the game they will be killed quick, or prevented for enough turns that when the commander can get going, it's too late. So part of this deck is attempting to run WITHOUT the need for Niv. That may be the problem, but that's why I run cards like control magic and gilded drake. Secondly, I need the deck to work well without being a degenerate deck that gets hated off the table for being no fun. Winning is nice, but if your opponents/friends can't enjoy the face beating, then the deck is a bit too competitive. My hope was to use my sideboard only in the event that someone WANTS to have a competitive multiplayer or 1 on 1. then i can sub in all the degenerate cards/combos and extra redundancy. I'm looking into that idea of using the wishes. good idea down there.:cool2:
If at all possible, could you make one up with hedron crab, mindslaver (from mirroden) and necropotence (either the original or vanguard) please? something clean, if you can. Thanks!
Yes, and at the same time, no. Two examples to show both our points would be Imperial Seal and Tarmogoyf.
Seal is just another Vampiric Tutor, Nothing special there, but the reason Seal is so costly is almost solely due to it's collectors value; its rare, rarer in english. At a players point of view, there is no honest reason the card is 100s of percents higher in cost, to collectors, its perfectly sensible.
But then look at Tarmogoyf. Its on no restricted list. Its relatively new. Other than its pre-mythic-quota low print run it shouldnt have been hard to get one. But what happened? Players wanted it. Collectors want it (if they collect for cost of card) because it's valuable, and the only reason its worth more than the $5 when it was released is because every eternal format player wants 4 four of them.
Final point is, while a card will retain some of its value do to when it came out, other rarity factors, etc, value isnt based solely on when it came out or the conditions of its existence (blue Hurricane from edgar). NOR is it based solely on the simple aspect of supply and demand vs its usefulness (the price fluctuations of Karn Liberated) It relies on both. So i bought a NM Unlimited Black Lotus for $1000. Cool. But if they reprint them, do you really think they would STAY at 1K? No, because some of the reason the value is so high is because PLAYERS want them, not just collectors. Not saying that it'll drop to $10, but even a drop to $800 means i lost $200 of an investment that would have otherwise increased had the card not have been reprinted.
1 Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind
Planeswalkers: (2)
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
Artifacts: (12)
1 Crystal Shard
1 Coalition Relic
1 Feldon's Cane
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Grim Monolith
1 Izzet Signet
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Sculpting Steel
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
1 Teferi's Puzzle Box
1 Voltaic Key
Enchantments: (6)
1 Control Magic
1 Dream Halls
1 Mindmoil
1 Rhystic Study
1 Treachery
1 Charisma
Instants/Counter: (12)
1 Arcane Denial
1 Counterspell
1 Cryptic Command
1 Desertion
1 Dissipate
1 Forbid
1 Force of Will
1 Hinder
1 Mana Drain
1 Pact of Negation
1 Spell Crumple
1 Stifle
Instants: (9)
1 Brainstorm
1 Capsize
1 Cunning Wish
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Reiterate
1 Starstorm
1 Tolarian Winds
1 Twincast
1 Wild Ricochet
Sorcery: (10)
1 Acquire
1 Bribery
1 Burning Wish
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Ponder
1 Personal Tutor
1 Pyroclasm
1 Time Spiral
1 Winds of Change
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Gilded Drake
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Riptide Shapeshifter
1 Sakashima The Impostor
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Trinket Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Whirlpool Warrior
Land: (38)
1 Academy Ruins
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Cascade Bluffs
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Command Tower
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Forgotten Cave
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Great Furnace
1 Izzet Boilerworks
1 Lonely Sandbar
1 Mikokoro, Center of The Sea
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
1 Oboro, Palace in The Clouds
1 Remote Isle
1 Riptide Laboritory
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Steam Vents
1 Shivan Reef
1 Strip Mine
1 Seat of The Synod
1 Shinka, The Bloodsoaked Keep
1 Smoldering Crater
1 Sulfer Falls
1 Temple of the False God
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Thawing Glaciers
1 Tolaria West
1 Vesuva
1 Volcanic Island
4 Island
4 Mountain
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Clout of the Dominus
1 Curiosity
1 Molten Psyche
1 Mind Over Matter
1 Ophidian Eye
1 Pemmin's Aura
1 Quicksilver Dagger
1 Rite of Replication
1 Shattering Pulse
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1 Telemin Performance
1 Tunnel Vision
1 Volcanic Fallout
I feel that the terms "casual" and "competative" are very liberal terms that will vary from playgroup to playgroup and person to person. You could spend all month tweaking your deck to make it "fair" but because your running blue and have pulled too many "Evacuate" effects, someone will call it too competative. In a 1 vs 1, you could technicaly say that since you ronly goal is to beat your opponent, that leaves room for a more "competative" deck. But even THAT could be considered foul play, assuming your opponent wanted a nice, long, old guys playing chess kind of game. I think the only concrete way to determine competative decks from casual ones are by how degenerate the deck is. EDH was made to have a large deck with 100 different cards to impose a sort of randomeness to the game. So purposely trying to force a specific outcome by gearing the entire deck towards the win condition would, in my mind, make the deck "competative." For example, I've been trying to build a Niv-Mizzet the Firemind deck. (still need help with it) and I've been fumbling with how to make it a deck that can win, while still being political enough not to get me booted, with a sideboard I can swap in/toolbox for for those games that are deemed "competative." I have a few tutors, some spell stealing cards like Bribery and even a nice counter suite with mana drain andforce of will. some could say that that is being too competative, but if you haven't noticed, I didn't mention Curiosity or Ophidian Eye and the like. Those kind of cards to me make the deck not so much a challenging/political deck, and more of an "oops I win" button. Degenerate cards are what really determine a competative deck. Anything else is just a matter of who you are playing with.
1 Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind
Planeswalkers: (2)
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
Artifacts: (11)
1 Crystal Shard
1 Coalition Relic
1 Feldon's Cane
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Grim Monolith
1 Izzet Signet
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Sculpting Steel
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
1 Voltaic Key
Enchantments: (5)
1 Control Magic
1 Dream Halls
1 Mindmoil
1 Rhystic Study
1 Treachery
Instants/Counter: (11)
1 Arcane Denial
1 Counterspell
1 Cryptic Command
1 Desertion
1 Dissipate
1 Forbid
1 Force of Will
1 Hinder
1 Mana Drain
1 Pact of Negation
1 Stifle
Instants: (9)
1 Brainstorm
1 Capsize
1 Cunning Wish
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Reiterate
1 Starstorm
1 Tolarian Winds
1 Twincast
1 Wild Ricochet
Sorcery: (8)
1 Acquire
1 Bribery
1 Burning Wish
1 Ponder
1 Personal Tutor
1 Time Spiral
1 Winds of Change
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Gilded Drake
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Riptide Shapeshifter
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Trinket Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Whirlpool Warrior
Land: (38)
1 Academy Ruins
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Cascade Bluffs
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Command Tower
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Forgotten Cave
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Great Furnace
1 Izzet Boilerworks
1 Lonely Sandbar
1 Mikokoro, Center of The Sea
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
1 Oboro, Palace in The Clouds
1 Remote Isle
1 Riptide Laboritory
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Steam Vents
1 Shivan Reef
1 Strip Mine
1 Seat of The Synod
1 Shinka, The Bloodsoaked Keep
1 Smoldering Crater
1 Sulfer Falls
1 Temple of the False God
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Thawing Glaciers
1 Tolaria West
1 Vesuva
1 Volcanic Island
4 Island
4 Mountain
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1 Ophidian Eye
1 Curiosity
1 Quicksilver Dagger
1 Mind Over Matter
1 Tunnel Vision
1 Clout of the Dominus
1 Pemmin's Aura
For a sweeping total of 94 cards. However, now the elephant in the room is that i need six more, plus since I'm running wishes, I need a sideboard that can reflect that, WHILE still maintaining the previous rule of keeping the deck friendly/fair, but having a sideboard option to swap in/wish at to turn it into a competative deck. Some of the cards i left out are:
Any ideas? or anything i should add/change?
Great job! That's very close to what I wanted, too; a little more integrated, as if they were all in the same picture. But as you can see, I am a VERY happy camper! Thank you so much!
The list so far:
thank you very much. I am VERY anxious to see it.
ah, crud. sorry 'bout that.
Thanks to everyone for the input so far, both above and below this post. I'm just using it as it is the most thorough. I have personally never played an EDH deck of my own. At the time of the original post I had NEVER played, and have since played with a few of my friends decks. I agree that I may be trying to do too much, but my falling out comes from two fronts: first, I agree 100% with you about utilizing Niv's synergy with card draw. However, Niv won't always be out. After playing a few games, I noticed that much of the time with decks running 5+ CMC commanders, a good portion of the game they will be killed quick, or prevented for enough turns that when the commander can get going, it's too late. So part of this deck is attempting to run WITHOUT the need for Niv. That may be the problem, but that's why I run cards like control magic and gilded drake. Secondly, I need the deck to work well without being a degenerate deck that gets hated off the table for being no fun. Winning is nice, but if your opponents/friends can't enjoy the face beating, then the deck is a bit too competitive. My hope was to use my sideboard only in the event that someone WANTS to have a competitive multiplayer or 1 on 1. then i can sub in all the degenerate cards/combos and extra redundancy. I'm looking into that idea of using the wishes. good idea down there.:cool2:
revision so far:
1 Niv-Mizzet, The Firemind
PlanesWalkers: (2)
1 Jace, Memory Adept
1 Tezzeret, The Seeker
Artifacts: (10)
1 Chrystal Shard
1 Coalition Relic
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Izzet Signet
1 Nevinryyal's Disk
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Sculpting Steel
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 sol ring
1 Teferi's Puzzle Box
Enchantments: (6)
1 Confiscate
1 Copy Artifact
1 Dream Halls
1 Mindmoil
1 Rhystic Study
1 Treachery
Instants/Counter: (12)
1 Arcane Denial
1 Counterspell
1 Cryptic Command
1 Desertion
1 Dissipate
1 Double Negative
1 Dream Fracture
1 Forbid
1 Force of Will
1 Hinder
1 Mana Drain
1 Pact of Negation
Instants: (11)
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brainstorm
1 Capsize
1 Chaos Warp
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Reverberate
1 Shattering Pulse
1 Starstorm
1 Swerve
1 Twincast
1 Wild Ricochet
Sorcery: (14)
1 Acquire
1 Bribery
1 Control Magic
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Personal Tutor
1 Ponder
1 Telemin Performance
1 Temporal Mastery
1 Tolarian Winds
1 Time Spiral
1 Time Warp
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Windfall
1 Winds of Change
1 Arcanis The Omnipotent
1 Clone
1 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Gilded Drake
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Riptide Shapeshifter
1 Sakashima The Impostor
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Spellskite
1 Trinket Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Whirlpool Warrior
1 Willbender
Land: (38)
1 Academy Ruins
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Cascade Bluffs
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Command Tower
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Forgotten Cave
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Great Furnace
1 Izzet Boilerworks
1 Lonely Sandbar
1 Mikokoro, Center of The Sea
1 Minamo, School At Water's Edge
1 Oboro, Palace in The Clouds
1 Remote Isle
1 Riptide Laboritory
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Steam Vents
1 Shivan Reef
1 Strip Mine
1 Seat of The Synod
1 Shinka, The Bloodsoaked Keep
1 Smoldering Crater
1 Sulfer Falls
1 Temple of the false god
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Thawing Glaciers
1 Tolaria West
1 Vesuva
1 Volcanic Island
4 Island
4 Mountain
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Ophidian Eye
1 Curiosity
1 Pestermite
1 Splinter Twin
1 Deciever Exarch
1 Skullclamp
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1 Clout of the Dominus
1 Mind Over Matter
1 Tunnel Vision
1 Drift of Phantasms
1 Quicksilver Dagger
1 Spell Crumple
1 Charisma