*disclaimer: I am 100% not saying the above stuff is wrong, just trying to provide perspective. This isn't to say the hard work done by anyone is wrong, because above is some awesome data points, but please don't take them as gospel. If you hit a certain win percentage it does not mean you'll start getting #.## of EV in 8-4s
The problem with these numbers is there are factors which can't be numerated. How much more difficult is a 8-4 than a 4-3-2-2 or swiss? Can't really answer that. Also I'd argue that a persons win percentage in 8-4s would be greater if they just did swiss, so you don't really have a single win percentage.
Also win percentage will almost assuredly change on each set. I absolutely killed it during Theros, but I am getting smoked in BTT. No one's a perfect player, so they'll force stuff from time to time that they like/understand, and maybe they doesn't gel with the format.
You also need to take rounds into consideration. Round 1 could be the most difficult match for you, but over time round 3 is generally harder than round 2 is generally harder than round 1. Your win percentage in round 1 will be different than the winners circle.
What I see: Swiss Can get weird. Chance for some new player to draft some janky deck, and someone at the table will capitalize on it. You will see some stupid good decks here because they're drafting things almost unopposed (here I am sitting with 2 fanatic of xenagos feeling awesome, when I run into my round 2 opponent who has 3 skyguards and 2 wingsteed riders they got on picks 6-7). I would do these exclusively, but a lot of the times they just take so, damn, long. There is a good chance of a new player who doesn't entirely get the interface, card interactions, etc, and they'll just wind down the clock. Nothing wrong with that, just set aside enough time to do it.
4-3-2-2 Solid all around. The chance for jank decks go way down. Most people have drafted a bit and know the bombs, know the interface, and know the archtypes. It's funny because a lot of people seem to think they know more than they do. I see a lot of forced decks and popular colors go away FAST most of the time. My guess is you can be the most creative here with wacky interactions because those cards aren't highly drafted. I eventually switch to these as the set goes on as the time I save is 100% worth the less expected value. But as I said above I don't draft enough for the single dollars to add up. I will always spend an extra $20 over the life of a set to save myself hours of waiting. You miss out on more "gaming" time if you lose rounds 1 or 2, but the hours saved more than make up the difference to me.
8-4 I've only done a few of these so I can't speak to a huge amount, but the stuff I've seen is stuff you can guess. Maybe it's nerves, but I always feel like if I draft a great deck I only hit it because I'm missing some other signal.
Let me make this clear though: I am not saying the Modern community are out to get you, or are unhelpful - but please do not expect an opponent in a match situation to assist you. It's bad form on your part to ask it of him, because most of us (like myself) will feel bad for not wanting to help you right then and there. Come to us after games when you are not putting us on the spot, and most players will be glad to explain to you mistakes you made or better lines of play you could have taken.
Ya, assume this is 100% always true.
You're going to pilot the deck and you're going to screw up bad and punt games. If you're not new to mtg you'll know what you did wrong at the end anyways, and that's really the best way to know your deck.
If you're going to ask anything, always ask after. At a PTQ or some intense tournament I guess they might tell you to screw, but most probably don't care.
I wouldn't recommend MTGO for getting advice. I talk to most of my opponents and only like 20% every respond.
Obliviously it differs from person to person, store to store, I recently moved from strictly standard to modern. I have the luxury of not really worrying about prices on cards. I looked at proven decks and built a few modern decks that are considered tier One. I really wanna move from playing kitchen table games with friends to a fnm modern. I'm still learning how to play these cards/decks. How would you feel about playing a guy with a tier one deck who still had a lot of questions and wasn't there worrying about record but more about learning modern and his deck and was asking questions about plays.
I wouldn't worry too much about it. If someone gives you grief then just burn a $20 in their face and laugh. Better yet walk up the counter, buy a mox, then eat it and say "my crap costs more than your deck as well".
But seriously, you'll probably catch someone tilting from time to time, but that comes with the "I own a high priced deck" territory. It's shouldn't be your problem, but it will become yours. Thicken up that skin, ignore as best you can.
I'm newer to modern than a lot of people here I think, but my hope is that it prices out some of the riff-raff. I just do MTGO, and going tilt was pretty standard.....wait for it....in standard. Even the tournament practice had people all up in arms every once in a while. I have the option of blocking them, you'll just have to figure out your way to deal with it.
Hey guys, been thinking of moving into Modern for a while and I think now's the time. Looking for advice from vets.
Favorite Playstyle (Aggro, Midrange, Control, Combo): tempo & midrange
How Competitive (For Fun, Local Tournament, MTGO, PTQ/GP): MTGO exclusively
Favorite Cards/Colors: I was big fan of tradewind rider/man-o-war back in the day. I also loved survival/recurring nightmare decks from exodus. If I was getting into legacy I'd take a long look at oath decks
Budget: not a factor
Staples Owned: Own some stuff from last years standard but it's gonna be a ground-up type of thing
edit: the only thing I really need in a deck is to know that I have a chance every match against the most popular decks. I hate the idea that I just get to a bad matchup and it's almost always an auto-loss. I don't want to have constantly rely on my opponent bricking on threats/lands/whatever to have a real chance.
I love the idea of the pod decks; was looking at melira specifically for the versatility. One of my fears is that I'll liquidate my collection to a modern deck then get bored of it in a month, and this deck seems to best subvert that. I'm also just one of those people that likes a list of 1-ofs. From what I can gather it's a heck of a challenge to play as well.
Side note: there appears to be a lot of player hate for pod. I assume there's something I'm missing, or am I misreading the meta?
I also really like the idea of the swords in a tempo shell. Delver is fine, I could certainly get into that, but I'm not sure I wouldn't get like pod better. Has anyone played both that can give a pros/cons of each?
The last deck I was thinking of was GR tron. Love the idea of hitting a big fat eldrazi, but I just think it's so one dimensional that I'll grow very bored of it very quickly. My guess is it doesn't evolve like a lot of other modern decks, and every game ends up looking the same.
How do the current pod players deal with the MTGO interface on these infinite combos? Is there a risk of timing out if they other player doesn't concede?
I haven't played any Modern before, so my experience with it....none.
I drafted fated intervention P1P1 last night. It ended up working our pretty well. I never saw either of them get bounced, but the instant speed worked really well twice. I also cast it on my own turn which was fine as well.
As for the GGG, no on seems to be drafting green so it's incredibly easy to get it. I almost had a mono green deck earlier this week, and they have enough ramp/fixing I wouldn't be too concerned about it.
3.5/5 seems fine, I might go 4, but I haven't seen it blow up yet.
After playing a couple more today, it's just becoming pretty standard. I actually don't like the direction BTT is taking. It reminds me on AVR. Bestow is just a beatdown, much like UG. There are other archtypes (mostly aggro), but you need the right tools. I drafted a nice aggro deck, but got stomped by a deck with like 2 of every removal. They just got the tools. Drafting enchantment hate is a good thing, but it doesn't do all that you want removal to (i.e. stop the threat cold).
I dunno, my attitude towards enchantment removal is changing. I keep getting stomped, and having success with, these heroic decks. W/X heroic just runs rampant over a lot of other stuff. They either don't have the removal for it, or by the time they drop a big threat of their own it's too late. BNG makes this much more of an issue because of all the cheap bestow creatures.
Right now I think of enchantment removal as a kind of targeted removal, like a weaker ultimate price. Hopefully not a pick in the 3-6 range, but I'll take it if there's nothing else in my colors.
I agree. I've tried a couple different decks (dega midrange, grixis control, jund aggro, now UWR control) and it's not bad. It's pretty easy to hate out an archtype (had/having a tough time with the rites stuff though), but really tough to make something good across the board.
I would expect control to do well, but they've done a nice job balancing that out with aggro.
I agree with mutilate. The card was there but the supporting cast was lacking I guess. I never tried to build with it, but I never seemed to see it get a lot of prime time success.
That is an awesome hand.. the awkward one is the when you don't get the 3rd land. If they don't kill your sage that's T3 Falkenrath.
You're right, I forgot about the mana add with BTE, so ya that is a T3 falkenrath which is awesome. I was trying to think of a hand which looks awesome but actually isn't, and I walked into a just a regular great hand.
We should all be so lucky
I guess we could switch it to a Spike Jester but that changes the dynamic cause you're not playing in the same order.
I've found myself in a decent amount of games where all I need is targeted removal and I'm good to go. Taking out that champion or anything with a volcanic strength can be just what you need.
The more I've seen of varolz the more I like. It gives us something the other aggro decks don't have which is flexibility.
Another cool thing is that I find if we're winning the race we rarely lose. I've seen a couple games where my opponent is just mutilate -> murder -> devour flesh -> more removal. It gets the point where I find a domri and they can't handle it or just keep drawing into bigger threats.
I'd like to post my list but I haven't done any events yet. Without taking it out on the highway it doesn't matter. You can look at a ferrari and know it's fast, but you never know the feeling until you hit the road.
I've been poking around with this deck; I like it a lot more than naya blitz or random R/X aggro. At least it's something a little different...
That said, testing on MTGO I've had serious issues with those blitz decks. The fact is they're faster and more consistent. What we have that they lack is a better mid game (or should I say, an existent mid game). So, like any other deck against blitz aggro, if you can make it past turn 5 with 10 or more life you're probably in the clear, and that stands true for this deck as well.
There are significant problems though, and although bonfire works well sometimes, a T1 champion T2 BTE -> lightning mauler is pretty much it for us. Also I've had a heck of a time working around boros reckoner. When that hits the table it's a 2-for-1 against us every time, and there's not much we can do about it.
I've tried playing defensively (that whole "who is the aggressor" thing), but usually a searing spear is enough to keep the pressure on.
Those games I've seen usually come down to if they have a decent hand. If they've got a decent hand it's usually it for me. Even a great play of T2 sage, T3 BTE->flinthoof boar/dreg mangler can be too slow or ineffective. By that time they're in full swing with a pumped stormkirk noble or champion, possibly a hellrider or reckoner, and god forbid a frontline medic.
As to the cards themselves....
I do like spike jester, but it makes BTE pretty awkward. The benefit: it allows for more versitile T2 plays. I've found a much greater chance of . It's hardwired into our heads that BTE goes turn 2 to maximize profit, but that's just not true in this deck sometimes.
Two cards I'm still high on are experiment one and dreg mangler. I've found the regenerate ability to be much more useful than I anticipated, and it gets buffed back up quickly. With dreg mangler I noticed a lack of T3 plays, and having that around gives us a lot more flexibility. A T3 BTE-Boar is sweet, but it's so awkward when you have BTE and nothing to really play off of it.
A hand I've seen a bunch if something like: 3lands, gyre sage, BTE, falkenrath, thundermaw. It seems like a good hand, but then what we doing: T2 gyre sage, T3 BTE into.......nothing. Then you've just got a 1/2 siting on the board until turn 4, which spells disaster. Yes, you've got a good chance to draw into something, but that's not what T1 decks want to be doing.
I also like how experiment one plays with gyre sage. T1 experiment one T2 gyre sage isn't a bad play at all, and puts some nice pressure on early. If we're on the play against blitz that's usually enough to keep the pressure on. If we follow that up with a T3 BTE-> mangler or flinthoof then we've got a stacked board.
Flinthoof is great. I actually think it works better as a T2 card. I love seeing T1 experiment one T2 BTE->boar. I don't need to give it haste because getting more value out of "the one", and next turn it would be attacking anyways, now we just save 3 mana. If you're T2 jestering then you can still turn 3 it up, which is still nice.
Our land is a definite disadvantage to us against aggro. Our shock lands will kill us, since all RW or RB aggro has to worry about is a T1 shock most of the time. I've gone games where I've been shocked 3 times by lands our of necessity. Unlucky? Maybe, but it's certain something to consider.
So on that note: I think by swapping out arbor elves for experiment one might be making this a different deck doing different things. Mana dorks are almost something you kind of build around. If that's your T1 play then cool, but I see that as a "let's get falkenrath or thundermaw out ASAP", which I see as more of a finisher or reach.
edit: another card I forgot about is Loxodon Smiter. That card can stonewall us pretty badly, and bonfire doesn't really help. It's usually another 2-for-1 against us.
What do you guys think of adding in 2 of Master of Cruelty, or even 1, along with 2-3 searing spears to finish the game.
I think that'd probably be trying to do too much. 90% of our early/mid game is interacting with our opponent until we can get a win-con. I think we'd be overextending by interacting with the opponent, while searching for direct damage/master, then protecting them is a tough deal.
When I write it out like that it seems like a combo deck.
I think the best use would be giving him haste somehow and trying to surprise the opponent, maybe as an alternate with aggro decks, but it's casting cost is very restrictive.
Maybe Far // Away & Turn // Burn, but they seem like worse versions of what we already have.
Far & Away I think has the best chance to be used. Draw it late and it probably saved you next turn, draw it early and it's...fine not great. I think it'll matter the most if bounce becomes a thing (aggro uses a lot of enchantments or something). I could also see it useful against some midrange decks. Bounce the dork so they sack olivia or something like that. That's a pretty big tempo swing.
Turn & Burn I read as more "3UR: destroy target creature". The 2 damage is certainly relevant against aggro decks, but Turn by itself is pretty useless as far as I'm concerned. It's like a terrible bounce since it doesn't actually timewalk them. Looking at it like that, why not just run pillar?
Question, how does everyone feel about the versatility of the fuse cards in our colors?
Far / / Away Away gives us a Tribute to Hunger without the life gain(which actually feels relevant with aggro around). But I've never really seen bounce outside of tempo being effective. So I'm not sure if the extra effect is worth it.
Breaking / / Entering Breaking if you want to go the Drownyard route I guess. And Entering could be a casual surprise for reanimator?
Turn / / Burn Turn can help handle some of the peskier value creatures. But I'm not sure how good 2 damage for 2 mana can be.
The problem with these numbers is there are factors which can't be numerated. How much more difficult is a 8-4 than a 4-3-2-2 or swiss? Can't really answer that. Also I'd argue that a persons win percentage in 8-4s would be greater if they just did swiss, so you don't really have a single win percentage.
Also win percentage will almost assuredly change on each set. I absolutely killed it during Theros, but I am getting smoked in BTT. No one's a perfect player, so they'll force stuff from time to time that they like/understand, and maybe they doesn't gel with the format.
You also need to take rounds into consideration. Round 1 could be the most difficult match for you, but over time round 3 is generally harder than round 2 is generally harder than round 1. Your win percentage in round 1 will be different than the winners circle.
What I see:
Swiss Can get weird. Chance for some new player to draft some janky deck, and someone at the table will capitalize on it. You will see some stupid good decks here because they're drafting things almost unopposed (here I am sitting with 2 fanatic of xenagos feeling awesome, when I run into my round 2 opponent who has 3 skyguards and 2 wingsteed riders they got on picks 6-7). I would do these exclusively, but a lot of the times they just take so, damn, long. There is a good chance of a new player who doesn't entirely get the interface, card interactions, etc, and they'll just wind down the clock. Nothing wrong with that, just set aside enough time to do it.
4-3-2-2 Solid all around. The chance for jank decks go way down. Most people have drafted a bit and know the bombs, know the interface, and know the archtypes. It's funny because a lot of people seem to think they know more than they do. I see a lot of forced decks and popular colors go away FAST most of the time. My guess is you can be the most creative here with wacky interactions because those cards aren't highly drafted. I eventually switch to these as the set goes on as the time I save is 100% worth the less expected value. But as I said above I don't draft enough for the single dollars to add up. I will always spend an extra $20 over the life of a set to save myself hours of waiting. You miss out on more "gaming" time if you lose rounds 1 or 2, but the hours saved more than make up the difference to me.
8-4 I've only done a few of these so I can't speak to a huge amount, but the stuff I've seen is stuff you can guess. Maybe it's nerves, but I always feel like if I draft a great deck I only hit it because I'm missing some other signal.
Ya, assume this is 100% always true.
You're going to pilot the deck and you're going to screw up bad and punt games. If you're not new to mtg you'll know what you did wrong at the end anyways, and that's really the best way to know your deck.
If you're going to ask anything, always ask after. At a PTQ or some intense tournament I guess they might tell you to screw, but most probably don't care.
I wouldn't recommend MTGO for getting advice. I talk to most of my opponents and only like 20% every respond.
I wouldn't worry too much about it. If someone gives you grief then just burn a $20 in their face and laugh. Better yet walk up the counter, buy a mox, then eat it and say "my crap costs more than your deck as well".
But seriously, you'll probably catch someone tilting from time to time, but that comes with the "I own a high priced deck" territory. It's shouldn't be your problem, but it will become yours. Thicken up that skin, ignore as best you can.
I'm newer to modern than a lot of people here I think, but my hope is that it prices out some of the riff-raff. I just do MTGO, and going tilt was pretty standard.....wait for it....in standard. Even the tournament practice had people all up in arms every once in a while. I have the option of blocking them, you'll just have to figure out your way to deal with it.
Thanks for your input, I wasn't even aware this was a deck (and I thought I'd done my research). Just the stuff I came here for.
Favorite Playstyle (Aggro, Midrange, Control, Combo): tempo & midrange
How Competitive (For Fun, Local Tournament, MTGO, PTQ/GP): MTGO exclusively
Favorite Cards/Colors: I was big fan of tradewind rider/man-o-war back in the day. I also loved survival/recurring nightmare decks from exodus. If I was getting into legacy I'd take a long look at oath decks
Budget: not a factor
Staples Owned: Own some stuff from last years standard but it's gonna be a ground-up type of thing
edit: the only thing I really need in a deck is to know that I have a chance every match against the most popular decks. I hate the idea that I just get to a bad matchup and it's almost always an auto-loss. I don't want to have constantly rely on my opponent bricking on threats/lands/whatever to have a real chance.
I love the idea of the pod decks; was looking at melira specifically for the versatility. One of my fears is that I'll liquidate my collection to a modern deck then get bored of it in a month, and this deck seems to best subvert that. I'm also just one of those people that likes a list of 1-ofs. From what I can gather it's a heck of a challenge to play as well.
Side note: there appears to be a lot of player hate for pod. I assume there's something I'm missing, or am I misreading the meta?
I also really like the idea of the swords in a tempo shell. Delver is fine, I could certainly get into that, but I'm not sure I wouldn't get like pod better. Has anyone played both that can give a pros/cons of each?
The last deck I was thinking of was GR tron. Love the idea of hitting a big fat eldrazi, but I just think it's so one dimensional that I'll grow very bored of it very quickly. My guess is it doesn't evolve like a lot of other modern decks, and every game ends up looking the same.
Thanks in advance,
How do the current pod players deal with the MTGO interface on these infinite combos? Is there a risk of timing out if they other player doesn't concede?
I haven't played any Modern before, so my experience with it....none.
As for the GGG, no on seems to be drafting green so it's incredibly easy to get it. I almost had a mono green deck earlier this week, and they have enough ramp/fixing I wouldn't be too concerned about it.
3.5/5 seems fine, I might go 4, but I haven't seen it blow up yet.
Right now I think of enchantment removal as a kind of targeted removal, like a weaker ultimate price. Hopefully not a pick in the 3-6 range, but I'll take it if there's nothing else in my colors.
I would expect control to do well, but they've done a nice job balancing that out with aggro.
I agree with mutilate. The card was there but the supporting cast was lacking I guess. I never tried to build with it, but I never seemed to see it get a lot of prime time success.
You're right, I forgot about the mana add with BTE, so ya that is a T3 falkenrath which is awesome. I was trying to think of a hand which looks awesome but actually isn't, and I walked into a just a regular great hand.
We should all be so lucky
I guess we could switch it to a Spike Jester but that changes the dynamic cause you're not playing in the same order.
I've found myself in a decent amount of games where all I need is targeted removal and I'm good to go. Taking out that champion or anything with a volcanic strength can be just what you need.
The more I've seen of varolz the more I like. It gives us something the other aggro decks don't have which is flexibility.
Another cool thing is that I find if we're winning the race we rarely lose. I've seen a couple games where my opponent is just mutilate -> murder -> devour flesh -> more removal. It gets the point where I find a domri and they can't handle it or just keep drawing into bigger threats.
I'd like to post my list but I haven't done any events yet. Without taking it out on the highway it doesn't matter. You can look at a ferrari and know it's fast, but you never know the feeling until you hit the road.
I've been poking around with this deck; I like it a lot more than naya blitz or random R/X aggro. At least it's something a little different...
That said, testing on MTGO I've had serious issues with those blitz decks. The fact is they're faster and more consistent. What we have that they lack is a better mid game (or should I say, an existent mid game). So, like any other deck against blitz aggro, if you can make it past turn 5 with 10 or more life you're probably in the clear, and that stands true for this deck as well.
There are significant problems though, and although bonfire works well sometimes, a T1 champion T2 BTE -> lightning mauler is pretty much it for us. Also I've had a heck of a time working around boros reckoner. When that hits the table it's a 2-for-1 against us every time, and there's not much we can do about it.
I've tried playing defensively (that whole "who is the aggressor" thing), but usually a searing spear is enough to keep the pressure on.
Those games I've seen usually come down to if they have a decent hand. If they've got a decent hand it's usually it for me. Even a great play of T2 sage, T3 BTE->flinthoof boar/dreg mangler can be too slow or ineffective. By that time they're in full swing with a pumped stormkirk noble or champion, possibly a hellrider or reckoner, and god forbid a frontline medic.
As to the cards themselves....
I do like spike jester, but it makes BTE pretty awkward. The benefit: it allows for more versitile T2 plays. I've found a much greater chance of . It's hardwired into our heads that BTE goes turn 2 to maximize profit, but that's just not true in this deck sometimes.
Two cards I'm still high on are experiment one and dreg mangler. I've found the regenerate ability to be much more useful than I anticipated, and it gets buffed back up quickly. With dreg mangler I noticed a lack of T3 plays, and having that around gives us a lot more flexibility. A T3 BTE-Boar is sweet, but it's so awkward when you have BTE and nothing to really play off of it.
A hand I've seen a bunch if something like: 3lands, gyre sage, BTE, falkenrath, thundermaw. It seems like a good hand, but then what we doing: T2 gyre sage, T3 BTE into.......nothing. Then you've just got a 1/2 siting on the board until turn 4, which spells disaster. Yes, you've got a good chance to draw into something, but that's not what T1 decks want to be doing.
I also like how experiment one plays with gyre sage. T1 experiment one T2 gyre sage isn't a bad play at all, and puts some nice pressure on early. If we're on the play against blitz that's usually enough to keep the pressure on. If we follow that up with a T3 BTE-> mangler or flinthoof then we've got a stacked board.
Flinthoof is great. I actually think it works better as a T2 card. I love seeing T1 experiment one T2 BTE->boar. I don't need to give it haste because getting more value out of "the one", and next turn it would be attacking anyways, now we just save 3 mana. If you're T2 jestering then you can still turn 3 it up, which is still nice.
Our land is a definite disadvantage to us against aggro. Our shock lands will kill us, since all RW or RB aggro has to worry about is a T1 shock most of the time. I've gone games where I've been shocked 3 times by lands our of necessity. Unlucky? Maybe, but it's certain something to consider.
So on that note: I think by swapping out arbor elves for experiment one might be making this a different deck doing different things. Mana dorks are almost something you kind of build around. If that's your T1 play then cool, but I see that as a "let's get falkenrath or thundermaw out ASAP", which I see as more of a finisher or reach.
edit: another card I forgot about is Loxodon Smiter. That card can stonewall us pretty badly, and bonfire doesn't really help. It's usually another 2-for-1 against us.
I think that'd probably be trying to do too much. 90% of our early/mid game is interacting with our opponent until we can get a win-con. I think we'd be overextending by interacting with the opponent, while searching for direct damage/master, then protecting them is a tough deal.
When I write it out like that it seems like a combo deck.
I think the best use would be giving him haste somehow and trying to surprise the opponent, maybe as an alternate with aggro decks, but it's casting cost is very restrictive.
Far & Away I think has the best chance to be used. Draw it late and it probably saved you next turn, draw it early and it's...fine not great. I think it'll matter the most if bounce becomes a thing (aggro uses a lot of enchantments or something). I could also see it useful against some midrange decks. Bounce the dork so they sack olivia or something like that. That's a pretty big tempo swing.
Turn & Burn I read as more "3UR: destroy target creature". The 2 damage is certainly relevant against aggro decks, but Turn by itself is pretty useless as far as I'm concerned. It's like a terrible bounce since it doesn't actually timewalk them. Looking at it like that, why not just run pillar?