Hi all... first time poster, and new Chainer, Dementia Master player. I have put together a list similar to the ones I have seen here and have a quick question (I am sure more questions to arrive soon).
What do you think about (or have you ever played) Vampire Hexmage? My playgroup utilizes a ton of Planeswalkers and/or creatures with +1/+1 counters and it seems that Chainer could use and abuse her ability quite nicely.
Glad to have another Chainerite on board
Chainer plays very much like a tool box deck that can be tweaked for an individual meta. If you see lots of walkers and +1 counters, then Vampire hexmage would seem like a great addition.
Would either of the two of you have decklists that you could post? I'm rather curious as to what you consider the business spells of a chainer deck at the upper end of the curve - especially given how high my average cmc is right now. Also, thoughts on dark tutelage?
I've used Dark Tutelage and its a good card is a deck Bob would be good in. Its a slightly worse phyrexian arena, but I've won games because of it. I don't currently have it in my list, but its a card worth looking at depending on your construction. I'll have to post my list next chance I get, currently on vacation.
Did anyone wind up actually making the transition to a more dark confidant focused Chainer build? I'm looking at doing it myself, and I'm curious to see what other people did.
I have dark confidant currently sleeved up, but I haven't got too many test games in with him. My early inclinations are that he makes the deck overall stronger, especially when dropped on turn 2, but I still have some tweaking with slots before I make my final evaluation
I did. I run a discard heavy build and he's been awesome. My cmc 3.42, but I've ways to regain lost life when, say, Myojin shows up first.
O want to say I'm approximately in the 3.4 CMC ballpark as well. I need to check when I get home. This is about as low as we can go and still keep all of our business spells.
I've actually been thinking about cutting Entomb recently. I don't have an early-game plan for it anymore without the Clamp package, and it's been clogging my draws recently. Realistically it's just an issue of a small sample-size and no need to overreact, but I only want Entomb when Chainer is in play anymore.
I've won a lot of games off of Entomb, so I can't say too much bad about it. After playing with both, I still prefer it to Vampiric tutor most of the time, especially later in the game. It was definitely better when I had a few cheap reanimation spells hands, but its still nice since it works instant speed. Its a one cost tutor that generally we want to play about turn 5-7ish to grab a specific answer once we get set up.
My opinion on Geth is that, given his functional redundancy with our General, he is a wasted slot. This is especially relevant because he is taking up a "bomb card" slot. The deck needs X acceleration based upon meta, and Y card draw based up acceleration, so that those slots are more or less mutually exclusive with the Geth slots. That means Geth is supposed to have a big, game-swinging effect... and all he does is what Chainer does, but for more mana and less life. Not useless, Geth has his spots, but I feel it is better to play a non-General-redundant effect to get the most mileage out of the card slot.
I'm definitely leaning in that direction. In a faster game, Geth just isn't as good. I'm thinking about going back towards a cheap reanimation spell like Reanimate. I seem to have been lacking something in this vein for a while. Codex Shredder also seems like a popular option
We run more sac outlets and tutors than most decks.
In a heavy artifact stax version with lots of mana rocks orb is pretty good.
The bigger problem is other people playing mana rocks, as we dont have a huge way to get rid of them while keeping ours.
True story, with our tutors, redundancy, and sac outlets, tuck isn't as big of a deal
You can hard cast it.
Sickening Shoal is a card I never use lightly, I hold onto it basically to keep be from losing, or to kill the only creature keeping me from losing.
The only time i cast it early on is to get rid of kaalia, jhoria, arcuum, azusa, or omnath.
Left unattended early game those generals tend to get out of hand.
The 2for1 is usually okay as later game we usually have great card advantage.
Oh yeah, and dont forget beseech the queen is 6cc.
Awesome for shoal, not so awesome for confidant.
A rise of kill on sight generals has me interested in sickening shoal. I see edric, azusa, and kaalia regularly at the basement playgroup and a guy at my shop has started using zur among other nasties at the shop. Ideally Sickening Shoal can stop an early good start while we get our resources set up.
check out my thraimundar deck and/or my Kresh deck, they have a ton of kill spells/removal you might find interesting... my personal favorite thought is Tribute to hunger just because we have a jenara enchantment deck and target spells are worthless against him.
slum reaper is awesome too, if you need more sac effects or just want to be able to tutor for one with dimir house guard.
I like that no one sees darkness coming, but having a perma fog on the board is pretty attractive as well.
Sunstone is a quite interesting late game option with Crucible of Worlds out. However, at that point, Glacial Chasm would be the better play to chain off of crucible.
Sickening Shoal for Bone Shredder - I needed universal spot removal and as basically free, this seems like a good place to look. Throst speaks highly of this card.
Dark Confidant for Ogre Slumlord - I figured while making changes may as well try Bob. Without the Stax guys, tokens are less relevant so slumlord was an easier choice.
Vampiric Tutor for Diabolic Tutor - Since I added Bob in, I ponied up and finally got that lower CMC Vamp tutor.
Memory Jar for Bloodline Keeper - I was wanting to try jar for a while and was tuck on a good swap. Keeper narrowly edged out Solemn Simulacrum as the card I swapped jar in for.
I got 1 game in trying the mentioned changes. I didn't get to many of the new cards like i wished, but Sign in blood early and then again with XHD proved to give me some nice fuel. All is Dust absolutely saved my hide; I really should have added the card earlier. It saved me from getting ran over and helped remove a PW that was about to ultimate next turn. I was really hoping to see Dark Confidant, Sickening Shoal, and Memory Jar, but they evaded me that game. I ultimately lost as I had out a billion land, cabal Coffers and Vesuva copying coffers and nothing to do with it, but overall, the deck performed well and blew much up.
I almost got a Blood Scrivener, but I wanted to test a couple games before going that direction, although he could be a better option that Solemn Simulacrum in the long run.
He got really lucky that he was able to land an early Necropotence with nobody able to remove it, especially in an S-tier deck such as Zur the Enchanter. I wouldn't necessarily say it means there's anything wrong with your Chainer build. If you really want to do something about Zur, Sudden Death is a great way to deal with Vanishing. If you want removal on a body, Royal Assassin keeps him in check.
Necropotence was actually screwing him over. Every time he drew a hand I was sacing mindslicer and exiling it. Just from drawing he got down to 14 life or so. He finally had to use Oblation on his necropotence to get back into the game.
My big problem was that I had Bone shredder in hand staring at his zur and it wasn't capable of doing anything. Later it was in the graveyard waving hi and still didn't help much. I need a more versatile spot removal in this slot, even if it means swapping to a spell like Murder. I've been irritated at bone shredder before, but is the game I'm 100% sure he's toast. As I've shifted to playing more black decks, the non black clause makes him dead too often.
I don't agree with this assessment. Zur decks are incredibly good at getting Necro early (i.e. attack with Zur once), and often removing Necro is a benefit to the player who has it in play. It is also often very difficult to kill Zur with spot removal, as he protects himself quickly. Imo the best way for us to deal with a Zur deck is to target them for discard to force the counter and follow up with a board wipe.
I think if jmdt is going to be dealing with this type of deck with any frequency he should look to evolve his list to handle this type of situation in a better, more consistent manner. It's one thing when random stuff happens in an EDH game, but what was described is what Zur does.
Edit: I guess I could go either way on the tuck rule (not just for the NFL anymore :P). On one hand, I get that many people will feel as if the point of EDH is to always be able to play your general. Therefor, if he leaves play, you should have the option of returning him to the command zone. On the other hand, I have no issues with players having to make an intelligent assessment about whether or not to run their general into a situation in which someone has :1mana::symu::symu: open... One side rewards good play more, one side allows some people to enjoy the format more.
He didn't even attack to get Zur, that was his turn 3 play. Actually thanks to mana screw and my constant hand nuking, he wasn't able to get white mana for some turns to get zur out.
I have been facing more 'powerhouse' tier 1 commanders lately, and it definitely makes me rethink the removal suite a bit. The stax guys don't hold the weight they used to. If you play stax, you have to go all in for it to be effective and Id prefer not go that route. I really need to up the spot removal to keep problematic commanders off the field early while I build up my resources.
How would combos get stronger if tuck were weaker against Generals? Did you actually read my posts, or did you just assume that I was suggesting tuck would not work on ANY cards? Let me make it crystal clear that tuck would work on all non-General cards.
With General tuck a non-factor, players would still have to play skillfully and innovate their deck lists. Perhaps Fogs would become more prevalent (they are criminally underplayed right now). Voltron decks could still use creature tutors, but wouldn't be forced to save them in case their General met an untimely Hallowed Burial. Games would be more fun, in my opinion.
Removing commander tuck is a terrible idea. There is always atleast 1 tuck in every play session in my group. If something gets tucked, its because it needs to be. Tuck gives answers and adds new thought processes to the game. If I suspect a tuck, I hold on my play, let someone else eat it, or wait for a counter to back up my play. I've seen as many as 5 counterspells drop on a tuck before. That is drama that is fun for the game.
It it doesn't cost B or 1B, the card just isn't worth it. Discard based cards are very situational and just not useful unless some combination of powerful and/or cheap to cast.
Agreed. Clones used to be braindead removal spells, and now blue players will have to use actual skill to get rid of your general instead of relying on a crutch.
Now if they could just get rid of the tuck rule...
Removing the tuck rule is seriously NOT a good idea. Tucking is annoying, but its a part that adds to the game, especially against problematic permanents.
I went to the shop last night and played with a new guy who used Zur. That was an interesting experience. When he dropped turn 3 necropotence, I thought we were screwed, but I transmuted DHG into Mindslicer to mess with his hand. Thanks to chainer, I got him dump 3 hands, complicating his life with necro out. Unfortunately, he got Zur online, grabbed animate dead and chose my Geth and started using my own deck against us, lol. H was low on life from necro, so I thought I could get him, but he managed to mill me to get Kokusho, the evening out along with falkenrath Noble and once they died, he exiled my yard. And I was pretty much toast with no mana and few toys.
If not for him wastlanding me to death, I may have had the mana to make a difference with chainer, but I was semi land screwed much of the game; I never got past 7 lands. Stupid Bone shredder I can semi say lost me the game. It sat in my hand useless due to the non-black clause. Any targeted removal sans doom blade would have saved the day. Good old Braids, Cabal Minion let me down another game as well...I can forsee some changes to my deck incomming
I am glad to see the change in legend rule. Hopefully it will be easier to keep chainer on the table now. Especially since few decks can afford that BBB usage cost.
Glad to have another Chainerite on board
Chainer plays very much like a tool box deck that can be tweaked for an individual meta. If you see lots of walkers and +1 counters, then Vampire hexmage would seem like a great addition.
I've used Dark Tutelage and its a good card is a deck Bob would be good in. Its a slightly worse phyrexian arena, but I've won games because of it. I don't currently have it in my list, but its a card worth looking at depending on your construction. I'll have to post my list next chance I get, currently on vacation.
I have dark confidant currently sleeved up, but I haven't got too many test games in with him. My early inclinations are that he makes the deck overall stronger, especially when dropped on turn 2, but I still have some tweaking with slots before I make my final evaluation
O want to say I'm approximately in the 3.4 CMC ballpark as well. I need to check when I get home. This is about as low as we can go and still keep all of our business spells.
I stuck all is dust in when I added Dark confidant. All is dust would definitely stay. decree of pain probably wouldn't make the cut however
I've won a lot of games off of Entomb, so I can't say too much bad about it. After playing with both, I still prefer it to Vampiric tutor most of the time, especially later in the game. It was definitely better when I had a few cheap reanimation spells hands, but its still nice since it works instant speed. Its a one cost tutor that generally we want to play about turn 5-7ish to grab a specific answer once we get set up.
I'm definitely leaning in that direction. In a faster game, Geth just isn't as good. I'm thinking about going back towards a cheap reanimation spell like Reanimate. I seem to have been lacking something in this vein for a while. Codex Shredder also seems like a popular option
True story, with our tutors, redundancy, and sac outlets, tuck isn't as big of a deal
Nether Void would be great once chainer comes out to protect our board position...stupid reserve list.
_____
What is the general opinion on Geth these days?
A rise of kill on sight generals has me interested in sickening shoal. I see edric, azusa, and kaalia regularly at the basement playgroup and a guy at my shop has started using zur among other nasties at the shop. Ideally Sickening Shoal can stop an early good start while we get our resources set up.
Thanks on the beseech the queen tip.
Tribute to hunger is a nice card, but as others have said, Slum Reaper and Fleshbag Marauder fill this role for us.
As to the 'tuck rule'. Currently the commander can be tucked with a spell like hinder, but some folk would like it to go to the command zone instead.
Sunstone is a quite interesting late game option with Crucible of Worlds out. However, at that point, Glacial Chasm would be the better play to chain off of crucible.
I got 1 game in trying the mentioned changes. I didn't get to many of the new cards like i wished, but Sign in blood early and then again with XHD proved to give me some nice fuel. All is Dust absolutely saved my hide; I really should have added the card earlier. It saved me from getting ran over and helped remove a PW that was about to ultimate next turn. I was really hoping to see Dark Confidant, Sickening Shoal, and Memory Jar, but they evaded me that game. I ultimately lost as I had out a billion land, cabal Coffers and Vesuva copying coffers and nothing to do with it, but overall, the deck performed well and blew much up.
I almost got a Blood Scrivener, but I wanted to test a couple games before going that direction, although he could be a better option that Solemn Simulacrum in the long run.
Necropotence was actually screwing him over. Every time he drew a hand I was sacing mindslicer and exiling it. Just from drawing he got down to 14 life or so. He finally had to use Oblation on his necropotence to get back into the game.
My big problem was that I had Bone shredder in hand staring at his zur and it wasn't capable of doing anything. Later it was in the graveyard waving hi and still didn't help much. I need a more versatile spot removal in this slot, even if it means swapping to a spell like Murder. I've been irritated at bone shredder before, but is the game I'm 100% sure he's toast. As I've shifted to playing more black decks, the non black clause makes him dead too often.
He didn't even attack to get Zur, that was his turn 3 play. Actually thanks to mana screw and my constant hand nuking, he wasn't able to get white mana for some turns to get zur out.
I have been facing more 'powerhouse' tier 1 commanders lately, and it definitely makes me rethink the removal suite a bit. The stax guys don't hold the weight they used to. If you play stax, you have to go all in for it to be effective and Id prefer not go that route. I really need to up the spot removal to keep problematic commanders off the field early while I build up my resources.
Removing commander tuck is a terrible idea. There is always atleast 1 tuck in every play session in my group. If something gets tucked, its because it needs to be. Tuck gives answers and adds new thought processes to the game. If I suspect a tuck, I hold on my play, let someone else eat it, or wait for a counter to back up my play. I've seen as many as 5 counterspells drop on a tuck before. That is drama that is fun for the game.
In R, Chaos Warp, and Skred are my favorite
In B, I like Dismember, Murder, and Withering Boon
In U, Pongify/Rapid Hybridization, Capsize, and Cyclonic Rift get lots of mileage
Removing the tuck rule is seriously NOT a good idea. Tucking is annoying, but its a part that adds to the game, especially against problematic permanents.
I went to the shop last night and played with a new guy who used Zur. That was an interesting experience. When he dropped turn 3 necropotence, I thought we were screwed, but I transmuted DHG into Mindslicer to mess with his hand. Thanks to chainer, I got him dump 3 hands, complicating his life with necro out. Unfortunately, he got Zur online, grabbed animate dead and chose my Geth and started using my own deck against us, lol. H was low on life from necro, so I thought I could get him, but he managed to mill me to get Kokusho, the evening out along with falkenrath Noble and once they died, he exiled my yard. And I was pretty much toast with no mana and few toys.
If not for him wastlanding me to death, I may have had the mana to make a difference with chainer, but I was semi land screwed much of the game; I never got past 7 lands. Stupid Bone shredder I can semi say lost me the game. It sat in my hand useless due to the non-black clause. Any targeted removal sans doom blade would have saved the day. Good old Braids, Cabal Minion let me down another game as well...I can forsee some changes to my deck incomming